Hot Tub Forum
Original => Hot Tub Forum => Topic started by: hottub63 on March 16, 2013, 05:16:24 pm
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Ok, I've read a million reviews on line about Silk Balance. The dealer swears by using Silk Balance, the silver ions, and the enhanced shock. He says I wouldn't need any sanitizer becuase the ozone and the ions would take care of that..
Thoughts?
By the way I just purchased a 2007 Hot Spring Envoy. This is our first hot tub and I'm trying to wrap my mind around the water maintenance.
Thanks!
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in the silk balance brochure they recommend 1 tablespoon of chlorine per week. some people go without it, but its probably not advisable. the product isn't for everyone, but i for 1 am amazed at the amount of people that use it dilligently and swear by it. if you go with it you will need to flush your spa thoroughly before starting.
the makers of silk offer a no question money back guarantee on the 1st bottle. if you are willing to hold them to that then why not try it?
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Thanks, my local dealer said that I could switch over to silk balance without having to drain my tub without a problem. No?
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not according to the silk people. the flush is crucial. the silk is supposed to coat the pipes, inhibiting the forming of future biofilm. all existing biofilm must be removed 1st.
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I actually bought a bag of the silk fresh start to do a flush on the used hot tub I just bought as suggested by the local dealer. He said as long as I did that I could switch to silk in a few months or so if I wanted to. No?
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Silk Balance is not a disinfectant. It inhibits biofilm formation. It won't kill the fecal and other bacteria that you shed, but if those bacteria aren't able to find surfaces to cling to then they won't replicate readily. So obviously there won't be any protection for preventing person-to-person transmission of disease (bacteria, viruses, protozoa), but there may be some prevention of uncontrolled bacterial growth. Dosing with chlorine once a week for sure won't last the entire week.
In a list of hot tub itch/rash/lung incidents I compiled on another forum, some "alternative" treatments showed up such as AquaFinesse when chlorine wasn't used, though Silk Balance wasn't on the list. Nevertheless, because it operates in the same way, I'd just keep that in mind. Note that since these products don't oxidize bather waste, they really need to be used in spas with ozonators. Without an ozonator, you'll just be soaking in your own sweat and urine. Of course, many skin products contain urea ;)
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Thanks for the feedback. This is my first hot tub and I'm trying to learn all I can.
So would you say skip the silk balance system?
Also how long does the ozone last in the hot spring spa? I actually had one dealer tell me it lasted over 10 years. Then one today me it only lasts 5 years and needs to be replaced every 5 years.
Just curious if that's true or not. How would a person ever know of the right amount of ozone is going into the spa? (Or any at all?)
Also what about the silver ion sticks? Are those nessecerily or are they gimmicks? Do they actually do anything? Do they work in connection with silk balance (our local hot springs dealer charges 200 dollars for a bottle of silk balance and an ion stick. He said they work together.
I know they claim to put "silver ions" into the water, but what does "silver ions" really do? Lol. Is it a gimmick? Do I use them if I don't use silk balance? What about ozone? Do I use them if I use or don't use ozone?
I'm a bit confused what all this does. Ozone. Silver ion. Silk vs no silk, etc.
Thanks for your help!
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I don't know how long ozonators last, but from what I've seen from reports on forums it sure doesn't seem like 10 years -- more like 3-5 at best, but I could be wrong. You can readily tell if an ozonator is working and outputting reasonable amounts of ozone because the chlorine demand will be about double (50% loss over 24 hours instead of 25% loss) or so with no bather load and about half with bather load.
Ozone: kills most everything, but only what circulates through the ozonator so does nothing to bacteria or other pathogens stuck to spa surfaces. Generally there isn't much ozone getting into the spa because if it did then there is risk of outgassing and ozone is an EPA-regulated air contaminant (and you'd smell it). So usually you think of an ozonator as supplemental oxidation to help get rid of bather waste. Interestingly, ozone does virtually nothing to ammonia, but it does oxidize monochloramine so ozone by itself isn't as good as ozone with chlorine (which you really need to handle the bulk spa water anyway).
Silver ions: kills bacteria including fecal bacteria, but somewhat slowly. So not fast enough for the EPA to call it a disinfectant by itself, however when used in conjunction with non-chlorine shock (MPS) then this is approved by the EPA, at least for the Nature2 product (the EPA only approves products, not chemicals by themselves). Nature2 is silver ions (and zinc) used with MPS you add yourself. If you want an EPA-approved mostly non-chlorine system, then that would be the one.
Silk balance: inhibits biofilm formation, but does not directly kill bacteria. It is not a disinfectant. I'd only use this system if you also had an ozonator (otherwise you'd need to use chlorine to oxidize bather waste, or perhaps MPS regularly and then with chlorine once a week or so). If you want to throw in silver ions into the mix, then at least you get some slow bacteria killing.
As for costs, the lowest cost would be the Dichlor-then-bleach method, but you have to know what you are doing to use that method. As for what you should choose, it's your spa and you can choose what you want. The above information is just to help you make your own informed decision.
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Thanks for your help. I'm assuming since my ozone is over 5 years old (it's a hot springs envoy tub) it's going to need to be replaced. I'm not really wanting to spend 300 bucks to replace that right now.
So with that being said what is my next option? Is ther a "preferred" method that people use or is it all across the board? I'm trying to wrap my mind around all of this.
Also once I fill my tub up for the first time how long will it be before I can get in? (Apart from the time it takes for the water to heat up?)
Do I have to wait a long time to get in agree putting in chemicals?
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If you are asking what surveys show how people maintain the hot tubs, the answer is that roughly 55% use chlorine, 35% use bromine, 10% use other systems including minerals (e.g. Nature2) and other systems. For chlorine, Dichlor is the most common by far.
Yes, after you balance the chemicals in your spa you can go in right away, unless you did some sort of super-chlorination in which case you'll need to wait for the disinfectant levels to drop (or add something to drop them faster).
Just because your ozonator is older doesn't mean it's not working. I wouldn't assume that and you should just see.
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Thanks for your help. I"m new to all of this and trying to figure it all out.
I have a can of enhanced shock that my local hot springs dealer sold me...I'm just ran the fresh clean and am going to drain and fill my hot tub this afternoon. After I do that the local dealer said to put in some enhanced shock and go from there. Does this sound right? What is enhanced shock? Is it sanitizer?
Also my "silver ion stick" that goes in the gray filter area on my Hot Springs hot tub needs to be replaced (I just bought this hot tub used...so I have no idea how long he has had it) do those sticks actually do anything? It looks like the local dealer wants you to spend 39 bucks or so on one every 4 months. Are they worth it?
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What do the ingredients say on the Enhanced Shock? If it's dichloro-s-triazinetrione, then that's Dichlor which is chlorine. If it says potassium monopersulfate, then that's non-chlorine shock (MPS) which is not a disinfectant by itself, but is with silver ions as in the Nature2 system.
If you are going to use chlorine and properly maintain your spa with chlorine then there is no need for the silver ions. The silver ions are best used if you are going with the Nature2 system where you also use MPS. It's a mostly non-chlorine approach.
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like chem said, the ozone machine could be fine, or not. there are test kits available. here is one. http://www.ebay.com/itm/Spa-Ozone-Detection-Tester-Kit-Hot-Tub-Ozonator-Test-/330875858736?
silk definitely needs the ozone and silver to work correctly. using it in the showroom i witnessed the chlorine in it's tub last 2 to 3 times longer than in tubs maintained with dichlor only.
the enhanced shock might be the new leisure time product, replenish. it is an 85/15 mps to chlorine blend. a good mix to go after body waste immediatly after soaking.
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@Chemgeek - The enhanced shock is made by Spa Guard...it says it is Sodium dichloro-s-triazinetrione and also says "oxidizer" below "spa guard" at the top. The dealer (a HUGE hot spring dealer in the Dallas area) told me pretty much all the Hot Springs customers use this, the Freshwater AG+ silver ion stick, and the onze system that's in the hot springs hot tub. He said to put in two cap fulls once a week and other than that everything should be good. Especially if I am changing out that Freshwater AG sivler ion stick out every 4 months. He said this is the very best way to go.
Is he wrong? He sounds like he knew what he was talking about and is a big dealer here. What are your thoughts?
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I just called my local store to tell them about this post, and he said the enhanced shock is only 58.2% sodium dishloro-s-triazinetrione and only about 46% active, so it's a much lower dose of chlorine. He said I could do one cap ful on a Sunday and another on a Wednesday and just sort of spread it out like that instead of once a week. He said normal chlorine is about 99%, so this is not the same and is meant to work well with the Ion Stick I bought and ozone.
Thoughts?
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One more thing..they also told me the enhanced shock was "mps."
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SpaGuard Enhanced Shock (http://www.poolgeek.com/SpaGuard-Enhanced-Shock-P352.aspx) is 58.2% Sodium Dichloro-s-Triazinetrione aka Dichlor so the rest of it could be non-chlorine shock or potassium monopersulfate (MPS). What exactly is your question? Usually it's more expensive to buy combination products instead of just getting what you need.
As for just adding a couple of capfuls once a week and being good enough, we already discussed that. It won't last through the week, especially if you were to soak in between times. Now if instead you were to add MPS regularly so that there was ALWAYS a measured residual of it in the water, then adding the chlorine once a week would make sense. See the Nature2 Spa instructions (http://www.zodiacpoolsystems.com/~/media/Zodiac/Global/Downloads/TL/TL-2700) since that's basically what the system they are talking about is -- silver ions with MPS. They just didn't get EPA approval for it, unlike Nature2 (Zodiac Systems), who did so technically they are the only ones you can really trust for it if used as directed. Probably the other system will work assuming it puts out silver ions in sufficient quantity. Did their system come with any sort of manual or instructions? Since it's not EPA approved, they can't make any claims about disinfection (if they did, then they are in violation of federal FIFRA regulations).
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Hmm. All I know is the hot springs dealer said they sell tons of hot tubs (in Dallas so it's a major city) and almost all of them use this system. 2 capfuls a week of the enhanced shook, th freshwater ag+ silver ion stick, and the ozone that comes in the hot springs hot tub.
I as finished besides my test strips show no chlorine and the instructions on the back or the
Enchanced shock say don't get in If you have 0 free Chrlone, but the dealer said
Don't worry about that. That with this system It's normal to see 0 chlorine on the text strips using this system. All of my other stats are on the normal range.
This is my first hot tub so I just want to be sure this is right.
And we use the hot tub every day.
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So the dealer doesn't say to adjust the dosage of chemicals whether you soak once a week or you soak with multiple people every day. Gee, that makes a lot of sense, doesn't it (NOT)? And the dealer is giving you advice about SpaGuard Enhanced Shock (http://www.pesticideinfo.org/Detail_Product.jsp?REG_NR=00518500475&DIST_NR=005185) inconsistent with the directions of an EPA approved pesticide (http://www.epa.gov/agriculture/tecom.html). "It is a violation of federal law to use a pesticide inconsistent with it's labeling."
Sounds like you trust that dealer. Good luck with that.
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It sounds like I trust the dealer? I'm asking for opinions in the fourm.
Also how does it go against the law? It's mps and the ion stick is made to use with it.
I'm just trying to wrap my mind around the best way to handle the chemicals.
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You have a similar setup to mine only difference is I bought mine new. I use Silk Balance, Silver Ion cartridge, 24/7 ozone and use the Spaguard products sold at the Hot springs dealer. Basically, I am running with the ozone, silver Ion and use Spa Shock-Oxidizer which is 31% MPS to maintain a constant level at all times. I try and manage that by adding enough after the daily soak to have just shy of the "OK" mark 24 hours later at the next soak. If I use the spa everyday I then hit once a week (not on silk balance day) a shot of Spaguard enhanced shock which is what you have (58.2% dichlor or chlorine)
If you search for my posts here and on the other pool forum you will see actual amounts I have used per bather load time to accomplish this. Chem Geek was pretty accurate in his advice (50% less because I have ozone)
I am pleased with my tub and have received numerous complements how clean it is and lack of any odor. Am I paying a premium for this - I would say yes, but now that I understand what the process is I find it very easy to maintain.
Tip - Read the low chlorine recipe that comes with the Hot Springs N2 cartridge. It states to activate it with chlorine initially (Enhanced shock) and to test MPS level before entering the tub. If low it tells you to add MPS (Spa Shock-Oxidizer) before entering the tub which to me means it is important to have the sanitizing system work as it is supposed to. Because MPS can be an irritant (although advertised as only needing 20 minutes mix time before entering) and Chem Geek says the most irritating components of MPS are dampened by the Silver Ions I add well before soak time to allow this to take place. (mostly from the night before)
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Thanks for the reply. How do I test mps?
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I use the Nature2 brand 3 way MPS test strips and I also bought the Taylor kit with the MPS interference reagent. I really wanted to find what ppm of MPS was in the "ok" range. I now mostly use the strips for MPS and have a good comfort feeling after over testing in the beginning to build some baselines for me.
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When you wrote "2 capfuls a week of the enhanced shook, th freshwater ag+ silver ion stick, and the ozone that comes in the hot springs hot tub" that didn't not mention any use of MPS. So that's what I was referring to where it implies just adding some chlorine once a week and that's it. If you were to maintain an MPS level, and that means adding it more than once a week, then that is like the Nature2 system that I referred to (and linked to instructions) in an earlier post (http://www.whatsthebest-hottub.com/forum/index.php/topic,16469.msg173841.html#msg173841). If you don't want to use chlorine during your soaks, then get a pure MPS product, not Enhanced Shock, for your regular dosing. SpaGuard Spa Shock (http://www.poolgeek.com/SpaGuard-Spa-Shock-P353.aspx) is one such product, though not pure (it's 31% while "pure" MPS product is 43% because in a triple-salt).
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Hmm. I wonder why this local shop is telling everyone to do this? They are a bit dealer and trustworthy. Should I tell them they are incorrect?
Also he said that enchanced shock was mps. No?
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Enhanced shock is not MPS
Dealers can be wrong
You will get better understanding and information on sites like these.
You NEED a sanitizer in your water treatement.
Sanitizers are Bromine, Chlorine or (Silver ION (Nature 2) AND MPS combined)
The Nature 2 low chlorine recipe clearly states you need either MPS or chlorine in addition to the stick. Word from the folks here is that if you are using chlorine with the stick, it may be overkill because chlorine alone will work.
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Enhanced shock is not MPS
Dealers can be wrong
You will get better understanding and information on sites like these.
You NEED a sanitizer in your water treatement.
Sanitizers are Bromine, Chlorine or (Silver ION (Nature 2) AND MPS combined)
The Nature 2 low chlorine recipe clearly states you need either MPS or chlorine in addition to the stick. Word from the folks here is that if you are using chlorine with the stick, it may be overkill because chlorine alone will work.
depends on your usages, but ya if your the guy who "ahh I just throw a couple caps in everyday I use it" you may be sanitizing to a point where the Silver Ion was not a good investment...just remember anything that needs to be done chemically is always going to be dependent on your usage so often people tend to speak in "generalizations" so make sure when your talking to your dealer your laying out your usages because grandma and grandpa using the 220 gal spa a couple times a week is going to be much different than the family of 5 using it 5 times a week
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I'm not sure what you mean. Enchanced shook is mps.
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I'm not sure what you mean. Enchanced shook is mps.
Really???
Because your dealer told you so?
Spaguard Enhanced Shock is NOT MPS - I repeat - it is not MPS
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What is the other 50 something % that is in there?
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Here's another post where someone says its half chlorine and half mps. http://www.poolspaforum.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=12744
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Call them and ask - then report back here. I know where my money is on the answer.
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I did call them. You can do the same thing. It's the Colmen Bright ideas for your home in Grapevine tx.
They are the big hot springs dealer here in the Dallas area.
Ask for John there and he'll tell you what he told me. Ag freshwater stick, plus ozone, plus 2 caps of enchanced shock once a week.
I'm curious what you can find out.
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Spaguard Enhanced Shock
Active Ingredients:
Sodium Dichloro-s-Triazinetrione - 58.2%
Other Ingredients:
41.8%
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That what I was saying. I was told that those "other" ingredients were MPS...if you google it, it looks like lots of other people think the same thing. Is this not the case?
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I did call them. You can do the same thing. It's the Colmen Bright ideas for your home in Grapevine tx.
They are the big hot springs dealer here in the Dallas area.
Ask for John there and he'll tell you what he told me. Ag freshwater stick, plus ozone, plus 2 caps of enchanced shock once a week.
I'm curious what you can find out.
1st thing I would change is to use a more accurate measure than "2 capfuls" I don't think anyone here knows how many tsp or Tbsp that is.
2nd thing is I suggested you call "Spaguard" customer support with this question and not a spa dealer. Only the manufacturing company can answer this with accuracy.
3rd thing is I would ask "John" to explain to you how his advice matches the printed instructions for the manufacturer of the Nature 2 stick. Below are a couple of pastes from the directions.
You have been given some good detailed advice here and either it is not being explained in a way you understand or you are placing the dealers opinion above what you read here.
Low Chlorine RECIPE
• You must strictly follow the Nature2 Spa recipe included in
this manual to maintain proper water chemistry and avoid
health hazards. Failure to follow these instructions can lead
to sickness from bacteria and other noxious organisms.
1 Drain and refill your spa. Balance the water per spa
manufacturer guidelines.
2 Install the Nature2 Spa after water is balanced. Refer to
Assembly and Installation Diagrams below for instructions
regarding your particular model’s installation.
3 Superoxidize the spa water with an EPA registered source
of chlorine according to manufacturer’s instructions to burn off
contaminants and activate cartridge.
• Add 1.5 tablespoons of dichlor to spa per 250 gallons
(approx. 1000 liters).
• Note: 1.5 tablespoons is approximately 3/4 ounce or
24 grams.
• Do not enter the spa if the free available chlorine residual
is over 5 ppm.
Important: Initial superoxidation with dichlor1 is required to
burn off contaminants and activate cartridge.
4 Run spa according to recommendations supplied to you by
the manufacturer of your spa.
Low-Chlorine Recipe
Ingredients:
• Nature2 Spa
• Non-chlorine oxidizer (MPS2)3
• Nature2 Spa Test Strips4, or equivalent (MPS2, pH,
and total alkalinity)
• pH, hardness and total alkalinity adjusting
chemicals
• Dichlor1, EPA registered source
When: What to do:
Every day Run spa according to recommendations supplied to you by
the manufacturer of your spa.
Before Test the water with Nature2 Spa Test Strip
each use equivalent). If the MPS2 level is low, add
1 tablespoon of MPS2 to spa per 250 gallons (approx.
1000 liters). Note: 1 tablespoon is approximately 1/2
ounce or 16 grams.
Use the Nature2 Spa Test Strip (or equivalent) to test the
spa water after each addition of MPS2.
If the test strip indicates levels below the OK range, add 1
tablespoon MPS2 to spa per 250 gallons and re-test. Enter
spa only after test strip indicates a sufficient level of MPS2.
After Add 1 tablespoon of MPS2 to spa per 250 gallons
each use (approx. 1000 liters).
Once Adjust the pH, total alkalinity, and hardness as
per week needed. A convenient way to test pH and total
alkalinity is the Nature2 Spa Test Strip.
Every 4 Drain and refill your spa. Replace Nature2 Spa and
months repeat sanitizer start-up.
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That what I was saying. I was told that those "other" ingredients were MPS...if you google it, it looks like lots of other people think the same thing. Is this not the case?
Easily verified with a call to the manufacturer.
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Certain ingredients are required by US law to be specifically listed on the labeling. MPS is one of those. Most "inert ingredients are not required to be listed. IF it's MPS, it WOULD be listed as a specific ingredient.
It's NOT MPS
That what I was saying. I was told that those "other" ingredients were MPS...if you google it, it looks like lots of other people think the same thing. Is this not the case?
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Certain ingredients are required by US law to be specifically listed on the labeling. MPS is one of those. Most "inert ingredients are not required to be listed. IF it's MPS, it WOULD be listed as a specific ingredient.
It's NOT MPS
That what I was saying. I was told that those "other" ingredients were MPS...if you google it, it looks like lots of other people think the same thing. Is this not the case?
This...for example, we sell leisure time products and their non-chlorine shock called "Renew" is labeled as Potassium peroxymonosulfate 32.2% Other Ingredients 67.8%
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So are you guys saying this enchanced shock should not be used?
Am I using the wrong thing in my hot tub? All of my tests on the dip stick are in the correct range.
I just want to be sure I'm doing the correct thing
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One more thing to add...I'm not using a nature2 stick, I'm using the freshwater ag+ stick that the dealer said was meant to to with this system.
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So are you guys saying this enchanced shock should not be used?
Am I using the wrong thing in my hot tub? All of my tests on the dip stick are in the correct range.
I just want to be sure I'm doing the correct thing
Not saying it should not be used. Suggesting if you use this product and not MPS then you should always have a maintained chlorine level. Dealer telling you twice a week without regard to usage is very bad advice. The more you use the tub, the more dichlor it will take to keep a constant level.
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One more thing to add...I'm not using a nature2 stick, I'm using the freshwater ag+ stick that the dealer said was meant to to with this system.
Same difference
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So are you guys saying this enchanced shock should not be used?
Am I using the wrong thing in my hot tub? All of my tests on the dip stick are in the correct range.
I just want to be sure I'm doing the correct thing
just remember this general rule of thumb re: chlorine and sanitation.....a human body will "demand" approx. 1.5 tsp of chlorine per 20-30 min. soak...so what people are saying is that you really can't go by the dealers advice of "throw a cap in twice a week" because if you, your wife, and 3 kids are using the spa for a week straight obviously "a cap full or two" is not going to meet your demand
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Thanks for all the advice. This is our first hot tub so I'm learning a lot.
I actually have some regural Chrlone shock. Is this the same as mps (meaning can I use what I have or should I go buy some mps to put in?)
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Whether the SpaGuard Enhanced has any MPS or not is not relevant to the point that only adding this product once a week is NOT maintaining any sort of disinfectant residual in the water. With silver ions, one needs to maintain an MPS level to disinfect the water. Adding even a pure MPS product once a week won't cut it. That was my point about the dealer's claim of all the users just adding a capful or two of product once a week. No matter what it was, it would not last through the week disinfecting, most especially not if there is bather load in between dosings.
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Thanks again. I talked to the service manager and he told me that I should be putting some mps in each time I get in the hot tub and 1 1/2 capfuls of enchanced shock once a week.
This advice sounds much more along the lines if what you re suggesting. My question is why do I need to pur enchanced shock in? What does it do?
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MPS does not oxidize all the same chemicals that chlorine does. So over time the tub can get dull/cloudy if you were to use only MPS (even with silver ions). So the weekly chlorine helps to oxidize some chemicals that MPS doesn't deal with and keeps the water clear. Technically, you could just use a pure Dichlor product rather than the "Enhanced Shock", but since we've all been speculating as to whether the "other ingredients" are MPS (unlikely since it's not listed and normally this chemical has to be listed) or something else I can't really tell you what that Enhanced Shock is doing for you other than what the Dichlor does.
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Thanks for all the feedback. I went ahead and bought the silk balance. Every review I see online from people that are using the combo of that, enahanced shock once a week, ion stick, and ozone seem to be really happy with it.
I know it costs more than other ways to maintain the water but the people who do use it really seem to like it and it really does seen hassle free. I'm going to try it for a bit and see how it works out. I'll report back. :-)
Thanks for everyone's help.
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Thanks for all the feedback. I went ahead and bought the silk balance. Every review I see online from people that are using the combo of that, enahanced shock once a week, ion stick, and ozone seem to be really happy with it.
I know it costs more than other ways to maintain the water but the people who do use it really seem to like it and it really does seen hassle free. I'm going to try it for a bit and see how it works out. I'll report back. :-)
Thanks for everyone's help.
FYI they have a guarantee on the first bottle so if you don't like it your not out any $
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i don't see any reason why you shouldn't just follow the formula laid out in the silk balance brochure. the pamphlet should be included with each bottle. their instructions are simple, one tablespoon per week of sodium dichlor, one tablespoon of mps per person after soaking, 4 oz of silk per week, silver cartrige + ozone and you are good to go. your dealer is probably trying to avoid having to say the words "use chlorine once per week", even though you are getting it in the enhanced shock.