Hot Tub Forum
Original => Hot Tub Forum => Topic started by: bimmerdog on February 07, 2013, 10:50:17 pm
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First question.......
Hot tub A has the best filter system on the market
Hot Tub B has a very good filter system
Both tubs in a controlled test have the same water used (same faucet to fill both) in the tub. Same amount of water in both. Same people using the tub for the same amount of time. All people shower before using tubs. Same swim suits. Every thing as close to the same as humanly possible
Is hot tub A water going to be cleaner and need less chemicals then hot tub B?
All I hear is how the filter system on tub A is so superior to all others but I can not find anything that supports the claim that tub A makes the water cleaner and makes the water safer for the bathers.
Second question ( sorry boring night nothing to do)
Bypass vs no Bypass. Going with the same test as above. Is there ANY proof that one is better then another. Not "it has to be better because it uses filters to filter all water" Actual proof.
Thanks
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I'm getting dumber by the day, so I won't answer, but I do like the question and understand the logic.
As nothing but a consumer, I have frequently simplified things by relating it to the old VHS/Beta debate.
It might be said Beta has a signal to noise ratio of .00256 db/hz/sec while VHS is .00251. While maybe true (I actually made that up) can the eye tell?
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Are you just talking filtering, or is one system using UV light treatment? UV properly done kills bacteria, viruses, etc. and could certainly reduce chemicals needed as it could do some sanitation at least of the water that it comes in contact with.
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What independent scientific test shows that Hot tub A has the best filter system on the market????? or is this just some salesman's claim?
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A hypothetical question can often only have a hypothetical answer...any scientific study would be subjective to whoever paid for that study.
Honestly, a single 35 sq ft filter can filter every bit as well as 200 square ft of filtration but you will change on more often...It's like having a larger vacuum bag or a smaller one, the smaller one fills up faster.
There are way to many other factors involved, how much water turn over, how often do you clean the filters? Obviously if you have a smaller filter you would have to clean it more often but then is your larger filter just keeping all the stuff it collects setting in the water longer causing the need for more sanitizer?
Does a more intense filter equate to more expense and do you really need it for that usage? Do you get better power from a bypass system? Surely the power can't be the same with a filter in the way can it? On my spa I've got the filter system on only one pump and the other pump is bypassed...I always set on the bypass side so because I like the jet power on that side.
There are a whole lot more vacuums sold out there then spas and they've been selling them long yet we can't seem to answer that question with vacuums either.
Personally I think my Kirby can kick your Dyson’s but! ;)
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It's not a hypothetical question. Wait it is, Stuart you are right. Why doesn't Hot Springs or Sundance or any other company do a test like I described by an independent lab to show that their tub is better. The reason is it will not show enough difference to justify that Hot Tub A is that much better to be able to charge more.
Thanks every one for the responses. I'm just a guy that likes to be shown with facts not "my boss told me it is better then theirs" The hot tub companies have to have some thing different from their competitors or why would I buy their spa.
Hey Stuart my Riccar vacuum kicks your Kirby's arse because my salesman said so.
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Stuarts right on with water turn over!
If you take a std circ pump that filters an average of 900 gallons an hour in a 24hr period it would filter appox 21,000 gallons a day, now take a main pump 2 spd 2.5hp that prolly pushes 1500 GPH an hour on low speed on high up to 2500 GPH if not more. Say it runs for 4 hrs a day thats 6000 gallons a day on high 10,000 gallons a day. Even with those hypothetical numbers it equals aprox 37,000 gallons of water flowing through one, two or 5 filters. Granted all pumps on a HS draws through a filter. But if you are adding another say 15,000 gallons of water a day through a filter who cares just means you have more filters to clean. Now in an average water volume of 350 gallons in a spa does no by-pass filtration really mean anything? No not really.
Filters are designed to pick out particulates in the water they do not stop bacteria from producing. Doesn't matter if there is 1,2,5 or even 10 filters in a spa. So once again does no by-pass filtration really mean anything, you still use the same amount of chems to keep bacteria in check.
No by-pass filtration is a great "sales tool" obviously since it's brought up so often, my question has always been? If it's so great why doesn't anybody else use it? Much like Beachcomber, external equipment pac or bullfrogs individual jet pack things. I can also add Sundances micron filter and Jacuzzis new filter.
And again like Stuart mentioned, a spa with just one filter can stay just as clean as a spa with 1,2 or 5
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We could walk on a whole lot more sacred cows then these in this post...like types of heat, insulation, bases and so on.
I tell customers every day that if a salesman is telling you that just about every feature on their spa is "The Only" or no one else has it, it’s proprietary they probably need to be suspect of what else they are being told.
To me the problem isn't that salespeople are being purposely deceitful, they are simply regurgitating whatever they are being told in sales training.
It's kinda like setting up a line of 20 people and tell the first one a secret then have them pass it to the next until it gets to the end and doesn't even resemble the original statement...except with spas it then becomes a standard to the point that even the guy that started it believes what the last guy says!
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We could walk on a whole lot more sacred cows then these in this post...like types of heat, insulation, bases and so on...
Here we go.
VGE grabs popcorn and sits back to watch the fireworks.
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A Hot Spring w/ its 24 hr circulation pump stays cleaner longer and uses less chemicals than a "standard" setup (ie a spa with 1 65sq ft.)....wanna know how I know? because I maintain 5 filled spas in my showroom 12 months out of the year and I do a TON of wet testing...my estimation is around 25% less chemical overall, if the water goes cloudy the Hot Spring will also "recoup" faster because of the no-bypass...after a wet test the Hot Spring is always at least 25-40% less cloudy than a "standard" setup and again regains crystal clear water much faster
now all the "experts" can come in and argue whatever points they want...IT DOESNT MATTER TO ME...I see it with my own 2 eyes on a daily basis.
and if you don't think that 100% of water being filtered while your "sweating like a pig" and have makeup/lotions/perfumes/deodorant/etc. coming off your body makes a difference than I guess we can agree to disagree but again I see it every single day with my own eyes...now is 10x better? prob. not, but the true 24hr circulation pump makes a huge difference re: all the points I've made above
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A Hot Spring w/ its 24 hr circulation pump stays cleaner longer and uses less chemicals than a "standard" setup (ie a spa with 1 65sq ft.)....wanna know how I know? because I maintain 5 filled spas in my showroom 12 months out of the year and I do a TON of wet testing...my estimation is around 25% less chemical overall, if the water goes cloudy the Hot Spring will also "recoup" faster because of the no-bypass...after a wet test the Hot Spring is always at least 25-40% less cloudy than a "standard" setup and again regains crystal clear water much faster
now all the "experts" can come in and argue whatever points they want...IT DOESNT MATTER TO ME...I see it with my own 2 eyes on a daily basis.
and if you don't think that 100% of water being filtered while your "sweating like a pig" and have makeup/lotions/perfumes/deodorant/etc. coming off your body makes a difference than I guess we can agree to disagree but again I see it every single day with my own eyes...now is 10x better? prob. not, but the true 24hr circulation pump makes a huge difference re: all the points I've made above
Well sorry for stirring up a hornets nest.
I do have to say my Riccar vacuum is the best because I have seen it with my own eyes. :)
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A Hot Spring w/ its 24 hr circulation pump stays cleaner longer and uses less chemicals than a "standard" setup (ie a spa with 1 65sq ft.)....wanna know how I know? because I maintain 5 filled spas in my showroom 12 months out of the year and I do a TON of wet testing...my estimation is around 25% less chemical overall, if the water goes cloudy the Hot Spring will also "recoup" faster because of the no-bypass...after a wet test the Hot Spring is always at least 25-40% less cloudy than a "standard" setup and again regains crystal clear water much faster
now all the "experts" can come in and argue whatever points they want...IT DOESNT MATTER TO ME...I see it with my own 2 eyes on a daily basis.
and if you don't think that 100% of water being filtered while your "sweating like a pig" and have makeup/lotions/perfumes/deodorant/etc. coming off your body makes a difference than I guess we can agree to disagree but again I see it every single day with my own eyes...now is 10x better? prob. not, but the true 24hr circulation pump makes a huge difference re: all the points I've made above
So that 24 hour 20 gpm circ pump filters better than the 160 gpm jet pump working for how many hours?
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A Hot Spring w/ its 24 hr circulation pump stays cleaner longer and uses less chemicals than a "standard" setup (ie a spa with 1 65sq ft.)....wanna know how I know? because I maintain 5 filled spas in my showroom 12 months out of the year and I do a TON of wet testing...my estimation is around 25% less chemical overall, if the water goes cloudy the Hot Spring will also "recoup" faster because of the no-bypass...after a wet test the Hot Spring is always at least 25-40% less cloudy than a "standard" setup and again regains crystal clear water much faster
now all the "experts" can come in and argue whatever points they want...IT DOESNT MATTER TO ME...I see it with my own 2 eyes on a daily basis.
and if you don't think that 100% of water being filtered while your "sweating like a pig" and have makeup/lotions/perfumes/deodorant/etc. coming off your body makes a difference than I guess we can agree to disagree but again I see it every single day with my own eyes...now is 10x better? prob. not, but the true 24hr circulation pump makes a huge difference re: all the points I've made above
So that 24 hour 20 gpm circ pump filters better than the 160 gpm jet pump working for how many hours?
yes...also a much more efficient system all around
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I don't argue the fact that a spa with a circ pump, filters better than one without in most cases. I think it does! I will argue any day of the week that no bypass filtration is not any better than most filter systems out there regarding water "turn over" in a spa.
But to say a spa that has no bypass filtration is better than one with out is crazy, when your talking turn over. Once again say a circ pump pushing/sucking 60,000 gallons a day in a 350 gallon spa, the water will end up going through a filter sooner than later. And that doesn't even include the other one, two or three main pumps a spa may have with multiple filters.
I don't say it in my sales pitch about a Jacuzzi but I could, because I have seen it with my "own two eyes" that the 24hr circ pump is plumbed directly to the circ pump filter with no bypass. Another reason I know this is because I can take my hand and plug the filter fitting and get a flow error on the topside. If it was bypassed the flo error wouldn't show up.
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I was told by the HS dealer that the Sundance and Jacuzzi have bypass in there system, yet my Jacuzzi dealer told me the cic pump runs 24 hrs and goes through the filter with no bypass and comes out either the waterfall or in the tub. So who is right?
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I was told by the HS dealer that the Sundance and Jacuzzi have bypass in there system, yet my Jacuzzi dealer told me the cic pump runs 24 hrs and goes through the filter with no bypass and comes out either the waterfall or in the tub. So who is right?
He's right. The circ pump is dedicated to the one filter, no bypass. Pump one runs through a filter with one suction with a spring loaded check valve for bypass in case the filter is badly clogged. It also helps keeping water pressure a constant through the jets something a HS can't do if the filters are clogged/dirty. Though it's prolly not a huge issue overall? Pump 2 is strictly hooked to suction.
In all you could say that a Jacuzzi is a no bypass system with bypass at the same time. And yes HS spas are complete no bypass. Again is it really that big of a deal? No, just another sales tool to sell a spa.
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I was told by the HS dealer that the Sundance and Jacuzzi have bypass in there system, yet my Jacuzzi dealer told me the cic pump runs 24 hrs and goes through the filter with no bypass and comes out either the waterfall or in the tub. So who is right?
He's right. The circ pump is dedicated to the one filter, no bypass. Pump one runs through a filter with one suction with a spring loaded check valve for bypass in case the filter is badly clogged. It also helps keeping water pressure a constant through the jets something a HS can't do if the filters are clogged/dirty. Though it's prolly not a huge issue overall? Pump 2 is strictly hooked to suction.
In all you could say that a Jacuzzi is a no bypass system with bypass at the same time. And yes HS spas are complete no bypass. Again is it really that big of a deal? No, just another sales tool to sell a spa.
Circ pumps are always tied to the filter alone.
No-bypass specifically refers to the fact that when you are in the spa and you turn on the jet pumps 100% of the water gets pulled through the filters which is how Hot Spring spas are desinged. Others use a bypass with the jet pumps so the water can take either path and the more the filter gets loaded the more the water bypasses it.
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Why can't ANY ONE show any proof that a no bypass is that superior to a bypass system. Sorry "seeing it with my own eyes" is not proof. Hell I saw Big Foot with my own eyes. Some one has to have an indepentent test to show this.
I tried to get my Hot Springs dealer to show me anything that was not written up by Hot Springs to show me that their system was "better". No go. They could not show me anything.
So I post my question on here and I thought I would get a answer the first day. No go.
All I can say is if I built the best spa I would pay to have an independent test company to do a test to show my system is the best. Then I would have the test results ( if they really did show that I have the best system. If they didn't show it I would just tell my sells people to say it is a better system) all over my store. So of course some one will come on here and say there is no way to do a true independent test. I call BS. They do independent test from bicycle frames to cars. Doing a hot tub test would be very easy to do. It would not be cheap but just think if a top independent firm had the proof that Hot Tub A was far superior to all others sells would go through the roof.
I know I'm a pain in the back side but damn this is fun.
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You won't find it because it is not better. The filtration system on any hot tub is sufficient to clean the water. Making something more sufficient doesn't make it better it just makes it more sufficient.
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Why can't ANY ONE show any proof that a no bypass is that superior to a bypass system. Sorry "seeing it with my own eyes" is not proof. Hell I saw Big Foot with my own eyes. Some one has to have an indepentent test to show this.
I tried to get my Hot Springs dealer to show me anything that was not written up by Hot Springs to show me that their system was "better". No go. They could not show me anything.
So I post my question on here and I thought I would get a answer the first day. No go.
All I can say is if I built the best spa I would pay to have an independent test company to do a test to show my system is the best. Then I would have the test results ( if they really did show that I have the best system. If they didn't show it I would just tell my sells people to say it is a better system) all over my store. So of course some one will come on here and say there is no way to do a true independent test. I call BS. They do independent test from bicycle frames to cars. Doing a hot tub test would be very easy to do. It would not be cheap but just think if a top independent firm had the proof that Hot Tub A was far superior to all others sells would go through the roof.
I know I'm a pain in the back side but damn this is fun.
Spa companies have had "independent" studies done before including one that was about energy efficiency that we've discussed here many times and see flaws in, flaws that maybe scew the report toward the company paying for it, what a shocker. The problem is none of us totally buy into theses type studies if the spa company is paying for it. To say that this is what you want to see wis shortsighted because you won't buy it...
What you are really wanting is a Consumer Reports type of testin that is independent completely. Go send them your requests, not the spa companies.
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This is a sales game, and it is like football, both teams want to win and they act accordingly. They both have an offensive approach, and a defensive counter strategy.
YOU become the fan that roots for one team over the other. As a fan, or as a consumer, and when you are not initially inclined to favor one over the other at the onset, you wait for the eventual outcome where one wins over the other based upon the way the game is played.
Presumably, they are both good at what they do, and as such, both win some and both lose some. It becomes a perpetual battle that struggles for the outcome; often times committing errors and fouls being flagged and penalized, and that is the sales game too.
The actual proof is the outcome of the game, or in this case, in the clarity of the water. While everything you present is equal, as it pertains to the "test" you are conducting, the dealer becomes the difference; some will leave you on your own, to struggle and learn by trial and error, while others will deliver the results of "what they claim".
And that is how the game is played. :)
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Why can't ANY ONE show any proof that a no bypass is that superior to a bypass system. Sorry "seeing it with my own eyes" is not proof. Hell I saw Big Foot with my own eyes. Some one has to have an indepentent test to show this.
I tried to get my Hot Springs dealer to show me anything that was not written up by Hot Springs to show me that their system was "better". No go. They could not show me anything.
So I post my question on here and I thought I would get a answer the first day. No go.
All I can say is if I built the best spa I would pay to have an independent test company to do a test to show my system is the best. Then I would have the test results ( if they really did show that I have the best system. If they didn't show it I would just tell my sells people to say it is a better system) all over my store. So of course some one will come on here and say there is no way to do a true independent test. I call BS. They do independent test from bicycle frames to cars. Doing a hot tub test would be very easy to do. It would not be cheap but just think if a top independent firm had the proof that Hot Tub A was far superior to all others sells would go through the roof.
I know I'm a pain in the back side but damn this is fun.
your not a pain in the backside...your a guy who bought a spa a week ago who thinks he's got everything figured out...no worries, in the internet generation everyone who can read a few articles and forum posts is an expert...enjoy your new spa
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All I can say is if I built the best spa I would pay to have an independent test company to do a test to show my system is the best.
That's not very "independent" When your paying for it the results tend to get skewed. What if it was done and the results weren't favorable. Then you pretend it never happened.
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IMHO all the big boys make high quality tubs and have great filtration systems. So any I would be happy with. So then it comes to dealer support and who is willing to negotiate prices. Both the Sundance and Jacuzzi dealers in my area were willing to work with me for price, while HS and Marquiss were not willing to budge much on price. So I went with Jacuzzi. While others in another area might get the oppisit and buy a HS. And we both will be happy with our purchase as will both feel we got the best tub for our hard earned $$$. :)
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IMHO all the big boys make high quality tubs and have great filtration systems. So any I would be happy with. So then it comes to dealer support and who is willing to negotiate prices. Both the Sundance and Jacuzzi dealers in my area were willing to work with me for price, while HS and Marquiss were not willing to budge much on price. So I went with Jacuzzi. While others in another area might get the oppisit and buy a HS. And we both will be happy with our purchase as will both feel we got the best tub for our hard earned $$$. :)
Someone give that man a rubbber duck.
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Why can't ANY ONE show any proof that a no bypass is that superior to a bypass system. Sorry "seeing it with my own eyes" is not proof. Hell I saw Big Foot with my own eyes. Some one has to have an indepentent test to show this.
I tried to get my Hot Springs dealer to show me anything that was not written up by Hot Springs to show me that their system was "better". No go. They could not show me anything.
So I post my question on here and I thought I would get a answer the first day. No go.
All I can say is if I built the best spa I would pay to have an independent test company to do a test to show my system is the best. Then I would have the test results ( if they really did show that I have the best system. If they didn't show it I would just tell my sells people to say it is a better system) all over my store. So of course some one will come on here and say there is no way to do a true independent test. I call BS. They do independent test from bicycle frames to cars. Doing a hot tub test would be very easy to do. It would not be cheap but just think if a top independent firm had the proof that Hot Tub A was far superior to all others sells would go through the roof.
I know I'm a pain in the back side but damn this is fun.
your not a pain in the backside...your a guy who bought a spa a week ago who thinks he's got everything figured out...no worries, in the internet generation everyone who can read a few articles and forum posts is an expert...enjoy your new spa
This is exactly why I didn't buy a Hot Springs. The dealer........talked down about every ones tubs and told me how incredible the Hot Spring spa was. If he would have just told me about his product and not make me feel like a dick for even looking at any other spa, the out come would have been different.
Yes the Internet is great. I can walk into a place and know all most as much as the sales people. So I go into the store to ask some questions about things on the Hot Springs that I wasn't sure about and the sales person goes right into his "all other tubs suck and ours is the best" speech. I am only speaking about my store. The funny thing is I get the same answers here when I ask the simple question "why is Hot Springs filter system better" I guess the Hot Springs sells manual just says it's better because we have more of them and it filters all water. Good enough answer for them. This is because they have no actual proof the system is better. It is better in their eyes. Again this is fine for most consumers but not for me it shows there is not enough difference in the hot tub to buy because of this.
As far as how independent can a test be if you pay for it. Simple. I would hire the most respected company to run the test. I would then buy my competitors hot tubs (all companies would be told what I was doing so they could have a representative there to make sure the test was far) that are as close to my tub being tested and have them all delivered to the company to be tested. I would make sure ALL test tubs were set up the same way. The Independent company would then run a test to see if the no bypass system and multiple filter system does make a difference that is more then 10% difference from the other spas. The 10% is so no one can say there are to many variables.
So do you really think Hot Springs has not done some thing like this to see how much of a difference their system makes? Do you not think Arctic Spas has not done some thing like this with their heat system or Sundance with their filter system. If a Company made a claim that there system is better then all others and have no proof of it do you realize how fast the other companies would have a class action lawsuit against them.
Any company can say that their system is better then their competitors but if they say their system is better in ads and say the other companies name in that ad they better have proof that will hold up in court or there will be trouble.
Being married to an attorney that knows the laws well in this field is a plus.
Oh and remember I owned a Hot Springs in the early 90's. I did not have the Internet and I believed everything the salesman told me about the tub I bought. This is why I considered buying a Hot Springs again but because of the stupid Internet I went into the store with a much better understanding of the spa market and what other companies had to offer in their tubs. A good salesman would had my $11,000 in the bank account if he would have just been honest and said their system is what they think is better but the top five companies have good systems also. Then he could have told me why in Hot Springs eyes their system is better and leave it up to me to make the final decision.
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Why can't ANY ONE show any proof that a no bypass is that superior to a bypass system. Sorry "seeing it with my own eyes" is not proof. Hell I saw Big Foot with my own eyes. Some one has to have an indepentent test to show this.
I tried to get my Hot Springs dealer to show me anything that was not written up by Hot Springs to show me that their system was "better". No go. They could not show me anything.
So I post my question on here and I thought I would get a answer the first day. No go.
All I can say is if I built the best spa I would pay to have an independent test company to do a test to show my system is the best. Then I would have the test results ( if they really did show that I have the best system. If they didn't show it I would just tell my sells people to say it is a better system) all over my store. So of course some one will come on here and say there is no way to do a true independent test. I call BS. They do independent test from bicycle frames to cars. Doing a hot tub test would be very easy to do. It would not be cheap but just think if a top independent firm had the proof that Hot Tub A was far superior to all others sells would go through the roof.
I know I'm a pain in the back side but damn this is fun.
your not a pain in the backside...your a guy who bought a spa a week ago who thinks he's got everything figured out...no worries, in the internet generation everyone who can read a few articles and forum posts is an expert...enjoy your new spa
Im done..
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Do you not think Arctic Spas has not done some thing like this with their heat system or Sundance with their filter system.
You're a new spa buyer and no one talked about the Arctic testing lately yet you knew of this? You ether have used Google a lot or you're not really a new consumer. Either way, no one here is interested in any talk of independent testing unless it is done independent of the manufacturer. If its commissioned by the manufacturer it will be scoffed at.
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Do you not think Arctic Spas has not done some thing like this with their heat system or Sundance with their filter system.
You're a new spa buyer and no one talked about the Arctic testing lately yet you knew of this? You ether have used Google a lot or you're not really a new consumer. Either way, no one here is interested in any talk of independent testing unless it is done independent of the manufacturer. If its commissioned by the manufacturer it will be scoffed at.
"No one has talked about Arctic testing lately" OMG are you serious. I went on their website and read it all by myself. It is their big selling point. Just as all hot tub companies have their own big selling points.
Arctic Spas = better heating system. Why because they say so.
Hot Springs = no bypass and 5 filters make the water cleaner. Why because they say so
Sundance = Filter in a filter cleans the water better. Why because they say so.
All this information is on their websites not made up by me.
Sorry for not being a SHEEP and believing every thing that a salesman tells me or what "some guys" say on the Internet. I do a lot of research on ANYTHING I buy that cost a lot of money. A hot tub falls into this category. If some one says their product is leaps and bounds ahead of the competition and do nothing but talk shit about the competition they better have some proof of what they are saying.
I play and work for a golf company that I think is the best in the world. When I am out doing a demo and a customer comes to me and asked why my clubs are better then the other guy I never say anything bad or degrading about the competitors equipment. I tell the customer why ours is good for them. How it will help their game. Then here is the big part, I let the consumer make the final decision with out feeding him a bunch of BS that might even be true but if my product is as good as I think it will sell itself when the customer tries it. If the salesman would have had the same approach when I was looking at the Hot Springs I would be having the Grandee in my backyard.
So sells people on here sell "your product" not bash every ones else. Not all consumers have a fifth grade education and should not be talked down to.
If your product is better in your mind then the other guys please tell me about it. As soon as you cross the line and say yours is better then his you better have proof. That is all I was after with this thread. Proof.
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So, you thought there there might in fact be some independent testing that had been done, that proved hottub A was better than all the rest, but the internet was keeping it secret and the only people who knew about it were on this board? I just don't follow.
Why hasn't the testing been done? Probably two or three reasons. 1. Annual sales are just too low to warrant the cost. 2. There are too many variables introduced from the end-user to make any real-world application of the tests null and void.
There might in fact be some manufacturing/process certifications that some follow. But that's not a review of the effectiveness. Just helps ensure that they don't leave out a few nuts and bolts, or use subgrade materials.
I think, if you spend a little more time listening and reading, you'll see the VAST majority of advice here is "Sit in the tub and see what you like". (beauty is in the ass of the beholder) "See if you trust and respect your local dealer" (Things go wrong sometimes) "There are many ways to maintain a tub, if you follow route 1. try this, if you follow route 2, try this".
You're not going to find a lot of "you're all idiots unless you buy MY hottub" here.
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Do you not think Arctic Spas has not done some thing like this with their heat system or Sundance with their filter system.
You're a new spa buyer and no one talked about the Arctic testing lately yet you knew of this? You ether have used Google a lot or you're not really a new consumer. Either way, no one here is interested in any talk of independent testing unless it is done independent of the manufacturer. If its commissioned by the manufacturer it will be scoffed at.
"No one has talked about Arctic testing lately" OMG are you serious. I went on their website and read it all by myself. It is their big selling point. Just as all hot tub companies have their own big selling points.
Arctic Spas = better heating system. Why because they say so.
Hot Springs = no bypass and 5 filters make the water cleaner. Why because they say so
Sundance = Filter in a filter cleans the water better. Why because they say so.
All this information is on their websites not made up by me.
Sorry for not being a SHEEP and believing every thing that a salesman tells me or what "some guys" say on the Internet. I do a lot of research on ANYTHING I buy that cost a lot of money. A hot tub falls into this category. If some one says their product is leaps and bounds ahead of the competition and do nothing but talk shit about the competition they better have some proof of what they are saying.
I play and work for a golf company that I think is the best in the world. When I am out doing a demo and a customer comes to me and asked why my clubs are better then the other guy I never say anything bad or degrading about the competitors equipment. I tell the customer why ours is good for them. How it will help their game. Then here is the big part, I let the consumer make the final decision with out feeding him a bunch of BS that might even be true but if my product is as good as I think it will sell itself when the customer tries it. If the salesman would have had the same approach when I was looking at the Hot Springs I would be having the Grandee in my backyard.
So sells people on here sell "your product" not bash every ones else. Not all consumers have a fifth grade education and should not be talked down to.
If your product is better in your mind then the other guys please tell me about it. As soon as you cross the line and say yours is better then his you better have proof. That is all I was after with this thread. Proof.
NONE of this is news to us. Many of us here stop people when they want to use the word "best" on this site. It doesn't surprise me that you saw this with a salesperson(s) and it happens at dealers of all brands.
The only mistake you've made is thinking the manufacturers should be having testing done on their claims, thats not where the info needs to come from. Talk to Consumer Reports if you want an independent testing. Seriously, fire off some e-mails or get their number.
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I don't have time to read this entire thread with the detail that it deserves, but I will echo what was said above:
I have watched both types of filtration on my sales floor, AND spas without a circ. pump as well.
The HotSpring (circ pump and jets pumps are all no-bypass) always gets clear faster than the other types, and a spa with a circ pump stays cleaner than one with a two-speed main pump set up with filter cycles.
My experience, that's all.
8)
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I sell both types here and also keep wet spas on the floor from both types...funny thing is that I think it has much more to do with delivery of sanitizer (including ozone) then it does circ or no circ.
For my personal spa I chose no circ simply because I felt that if I could accomplish everything I wanted with less components to go wrong or replace then why wouldn't I? With most circ systems you also need to have a special low flow heater that is no more reliable then my standard flow through and when the low flow fails its more expensive and harder to deal with. But then I also like my Ford much better then my wife's Volvo because it's easier to work on and parts are less expensive.
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"No one has talked about Arctic testing lately" OMG are you serious. I went on their website and read it all by myself. It is their big selling point. Just as all hot tub companies have their own big selling points.
Arctic Spas = better heating system. Why because they say so.
Hot Springs = no bypass and 5 filters make the water cleaner. Why because they say so
Sundance = Filter in a filter cleans the water better. Why because they say so.
All this information is on their websites not made up by me.
Sorry for not being a SHEEP and believing every thing that a salesman tells me or what "some guys" say on the Internet. I do a lot of research on ANYTHING I buy that cost a lot of money. A hot tub falls into this category. If some one says their product is leaps and bounds ahead of the competition and do nothing but talk shit about the competition they better have some proof of what they are saying.
I play and work for a golf company that I think is the best in the world. When I am out doing a demo and a customer comes to me and asked why my clubs are better then the other guy I never say anything bad or degrading about the competitors equipment. I tell the customer why ours is good for them. How it will help their game. Then here is the big part, I let the consumer make the final decision with out feeding him a bunch of BS that might even be true but if my product is as good as I think it will sell itself when the customer tries it. If the salesman would have had the same approach when I was looking at the Hot Springs I would be having the Grandee in my backyard.
So sells people on here sell "your product" not bash every ones else. Not all consumers have a fifth grade education and should not be talked down to.
If your product is better in your mind then the other guys please tell me about it. As soon as you cross the line and say yours is better then his you better have proof. That is all I was after with this thread. Proof.
Must not of read the Arctic "Independent Testing" to closely. The Hot Springs came out more efficient even with a thinner cover. Which by the way is the most important thing in maintaining water temp.
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"No one has talked about Arctic testing lately" OMG are you serious. I went on their website and read it all by myself. It is their big selling point. Just as all hot tub companies have their own big selling points.
Arctic Spas = better heating system. Why because they say so.
Hot Springs = no bypass and 5 filters make the water cleaner. Why because they say so
Sundance = Filter in a filter cleans the water better. Why because they say so.
All this information is on their websites not made up by me.
Sorry for not being a SHEEP and believing every thing that a salesman tells me or what "some guys" say on the Internet. I do a lot of research on ANYTHING I buy that cost a lot of money. A hot tub falls into this category. If some one says their product is leaps and bounds ahead of the competition and do nothing but talk shit about the competition they better have some proof of what they are saying.
I play and work for a golf company that I think is the best in the world. When I am out doing a demo and a customer comes to me and asked why my clubs are better then the other guy I never say anything bad or degrading about the competitors equipment. I tell the customer why ours is good for them. How it will help their game. Then here is the big part, I let the consumer make the final decision with out feeding him a bunch of BS that might even be true but if my product is as good as I think it will sell itself when the customer tries it. If the salesman would have had the same approach when I was looking at the Hot Springs I would be having the Grandee in my backyard.
So sells people on here sell "your product" not bash every ones else. Not all consumers have a fifth grade education and should not be talked down to.
If your product is better in your mind then the other guys please tell me about it. As soon as you cross the line and say yours is better then his you better have proof. That is all I was after with this thread. Proof.
Must not of read the Arctic "Independent Testing" to closely. The Hot Springs came out more efficient even with a thinner cover. Which by the way is the most important thing in maintaining water temp.
I have to say, I guess we should all keep better records of "cost of ownership" of spas. It just seems ridiculous to me that we're all fine dropping four (sometimes five) figures on a luxury item (not including landscaping, or deck work, accessories, god knows what else) and then we obsess and brag about efficiency when it likely adds a few bucks per year to the actual cost.
Its a sunk cost, you've dropped your cash, its in the backyard. Just relax and enjoy it.
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"No one has talked about Arctic testing lately" OMG are you serious. I went on their website and read it all by myself. It is their big selling point. Just as all hot tub companies have their own big selling points.
Arctic Spas = better heating system. Why because they say so.
Hot Springs = no bypass and 5 filters make the water cleaner. Why because they say so
Sundance = Filter in a filter cleans the water better. Why because they say so.
All this information is on their websites not made up by me.
Sorry for not being a SHEEP and believing every thing that a salesman tells me or what "some guys" say on the Internet. I do a lot of research on ANYTHING I buy that cost a lot of money. A hot tub falls into this category. If some one says their product is leaps and bounds ahead of the competition and do nothing but talk shit about the competition they better have some proof of what they are saying.
I play and work for a golf company that I think is the best in the world. When I am out doing a demo and a customer comes to me and asked why my clubs are better then the other guy I never say anything bad or degrading about the competitors equipment. I tell the customer why ours is good for them. How it will help their game. Then here is the big part, I let the consumer make the final decision with out feeding him a bunch of BS that might even be true but if my product is as good as I think it will sell itself when the customer tries it. If the salesman would have had the same approach when I was looking at the Hot Springs I would be having the Grandee in my backyard.
So sells people on here sell "your product" not bash every ones else. Not all consumers have a fifth grade education and should not be talked down to.
If your product is better in your mind then the other guys please tell me about it. As soon as you cross the line and say yours is better then his you better have proof. That is all I was after with this thread. Proof.
Must not of read the Arctic "Independent Testing" to closely. The Hot Springs came out more efficient even with a thinner cover. Which by the way is the most important thing in maintaining water temp.
Tman122 I used Arctic Spas as an example. I really don't care about Arctic Spas. But you did answer a question about an INDEPENDENT Testing that showed the HS was better with a thinner cover. Why can't any INDEPENDENT testing show why HS no bypass and filter system is better then their competitors? Some how it was done to show HS was better with heat retention than Arctic spas.....IM going off of what Tman122 said about the independent test.
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"No one has talked about Arctic testing lately" OMG are you serious. I went on their website and read it all by myself. It is their big selling point. Just as all hot tub companies have their own big selling points.
Arctic Spas = better heating system. Why because they say so.
Hot Springs = no bypass and 5 filters make the water cleaner. Why because they say so
Sundance = Filter in a filter cleans the water better. Why because they say so.
All this information is on their websites not made up by me.
Sorry for not being a SHEEP and believing every thing that a salesman tells me or what "some guys" say on the Internet. I do a lot of research on ANYTHING I buy that cost a lot of money. A hot tub falls into this category. If some one says their product is leaps and bounds ahead of the competition and do nothing but talk shit about the competition they better have some proof of what they are saying.
I play and work for a golf company that I think is the best in the world. When I am out doing a demo and a customer comes to me and asked why my clubs are better then the other guy I never say anything bad or degrading about the competitors equipment. I tell the customer why ours is good for them. How it will help their game. Then here is the big part, I let the consumer make the final decision with out feeding him a bunch of BS that might even be true but if my product is as good as I think it will sell itself when the customer tries it. If the salesman would have had the same approach when I was looking at the Hot Springs I would be having the Grandee in my backyard.
So sells people on here sell "your product" not bash every ones else. Not all consumers have a fifth grade education and should not be talked down to.
If your product is better in your mind then the other guys please tell me about it. As soon as you cross the line and say yours is better then his you better have proof. That is all I was after with this thread. Proof.
Must not of read the Arctic "Independent Testing" to closely. The Hot Springs came out more efficient even with a thinner cover. Which by the way is the most important thing in maintaining water temp.
I have to say, I guess we should all keep better records of "cost of ownership" of spas. It just seems ridiculous to me that we're all fine dropping four (sometimes five) figures on a luxury item (not including landscaping, or deck work, accessories, god knows what else) and then we obsess and brag about efficiency when it likely adds a few bucks per year to the actual cost.
Its a sunk cost, you've dropped your cash, its in the backyard. Just relax and enjoy it.
Sorebikr you are absolutely correct about just enjoying our tubs. I plan to a lot. Some times forum get really boring and not much going on. Having a discussion like the one I started gets peoples blood and fingers going. To me it's a lot more fun then always answering the same questions over and over.
If I sold HS I would be selling our filters and no bypass and Moto-Massage DX and ACE system. But where IM different then a few on here is I would never say that any other company did not make a good product. I would explain why mine is better. If a customer asked me to prove that our system was better, I would have to just say "I can tell you why I think it is better but it will be up to you to take what I have giving you and decide for yourself" That is where IM different. I will never tell some one that mines better then theirs if I can't prove it with something more then "my boss told me" or "I have seen it with my own eyes"
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If a customer asked me to prove that our system was better, I would have to just say "I can tell you why I think it is better but it will be up to you to take what I have giving you and decide for yourself" That is where IM different. I will never tell some one that mines better then theirs if I can't prove it with something more then "my boss told me" or "I have seen it with my own eyes"
You may be different from the dealer you shopped at but you are not different from most of the people on this site and many dealers out there I’ve seen. I've worked with/for a few dealers. I've also sold spas at times in the past as a sideline. I almost never heard the salespeople at those places talk about the competition unless asked specifically and then it was never a smear campaign that I remember. I don't doubt you ran into someone who sold in a negative manner but you have to get over it, it happens and not just at spa dealerships but cars, boats etc. Good for you that you found a different dealer you were happy with but please don't assume most in the industry are like that dealer.
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There are likely just as many bad experiences with dealers as good ones. Seems really important to a lot of folks. Personally I eat dealers for breakfast and can turn any plaid coat watch salesman into mush. But most are intimidated by those types of sales people. I have a good friend who can sell matches to the devil and is the best sales guy I have ever seen. He could convince an Eskimo he needs an ice maker. He has sold many things in his life and still enjoys his customers, no matter how unruly they can be. He now trains people in the art of sales. More sales people need to use his tactics. The customer is always right. Even when they are wrong he makes them right.
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If a customer asked me to prove that our system was better, I would have to just say "I can tell you why I think it is better but it will be up to you to take what I have giving you and decide for yourself" That is where IM different. I will never tell some one that mines better then theirs if I can't prove it with something more then "my boss told me" or "I have seen it with my own eyes"
You may be different from the dealer you shopped at but you are not different from most of the people on this site and many dealers out there I’ve seen. I've worked with/for a few dealers. I've also sold spas at times in the past as a sideline. I almost never heard the salespeople at those places talk about the competition unless asked specifically and then it was never a smear campaign that I remember. I don't doubt you ran into someone who sold in a negative manner but you have to get over it, it happens and not just at spa dealerships but cars, boats etc. Good for you that you found a different dealer you were happy with but please don't assume most in the industry are like that dealer.
I'm not trying to get over anything. IM extremely happy with my purchase. Why does this remind me of two politicians always trying to change the subject when they can't answer the question.
My question was very easy. Why is Hot Springs no bypass system and 5 filters better then Sundance or Jacuzzi or any of the other top spa manufacturers in the final results of keeping the water cleaner. If the answer from Hot Springs people is "we believe our system is the best for OUR spa" I can live with that answer. If the answer is "we believe our system is better then any other manufacture". You better have proof for what you are saying and not just proof from your own company. I have not seen any proof.
Bottom line from me is the top spa manufactures make great products that do what they say they will do. I have my personal opinions on the companies I feel are the best but that will stay as my opinion from my research. I have nothing at all against Hot Springs. I would own one in a heart beat. If the wife had liked the tub on the wet test I would have bought it.
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YOU, can live with that answer...but THEY, believe their marketing approach will sell the most spas.
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And that is how the game is played. The Ravens won, and the 49'ers made a valiant effort, and almost won. There were some flags and some penalties, and they will both be back next season.
Now, Brimmer, put a twinkle in your eye, get a bottle of your wife's favorite enticement, and head for the hot water and enjoy. Your gonna love it. There are NO bad choices, and you can only buy one. It is time to enjoy. :)
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OK I guess I will never get a true answer so I need to come up with another question to get people all excited and thinking. See what happens when there is snow on the ground and I can't play golf. I find things to get people all riled up on here.
Last thing, I respect everything that was written on this topic. Even if no one can show proof ;)
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Here Bimmer, The Hot Springs no bypass filter system is better because all of the water all of the time is going through a filter. A bypass system does not do that. Its called a filter system because it is for filtering. So the more water that goes across the filter the better.
This of course has nothing to do with it being a needed product. All spa filtering systems filter adequately.
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OK I guess I will never get a true answer so I need to come up with another question to get people all excited and thinking. See what happens when there is snow on the ground and I can't play golf. I find things to get people all riled up on here.
Last thing, I respect everything that was written on this topic. Even if no one can show proof ;)
This is also called trolling. I'm bored.
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OK I guess I will never get a true answer so I need to come up with another question to get people all excited and thinking. See what happens when there is snow on the ground and I can't play golf. I find things to get people all riled up on here.
Last thing, I respect everything that was written on this topic. Even if no one can show proof ;)
This is also called trolling. I'm bored.
Trolling ...screw you. I asked a question as a consumer because I could not find the answer anywhere. My dealer could not answer it and none of the Hot Springs guys on here could show me any proof either. I hope others who will ask the exact same question in the future don't get the base answer, "it's the best in the industry" If it is the best which it just might be, show me proof that it is. It's not that hard of a thing to do.
Sorebikr if you took the time to look at all my post I have been all over on this site. I try to help others when I can. I am learning about hot tubs so I might in the future be able to help others. Again if you took any time to read my post I have stated numerous times I would have bought the Hot Springs if my wife would have liked it. How does that make me a troll?
I have been on this planet for many years. I have seen to many times people believe what ever is told to them and don't think for themselves. If some one would have posted that Consumers Reports or any other trusted independent company did a test on five major hot tubs and Hot springs was the best at keeping the water clean then this thread would have ended after the second post. It never happened did it sorebikr?
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OK I guess I will never get a true answer so I need to come up with another question to get people all excited and thinking. See what happens when there is snow on the ground and I can't play golf. I find things to get people all riled up on here.
Last thing, I respect everything that was written on this topic. Even if no one can show proof ;)
This is also called trolling. I'm bored.
Trolling ...screw you. I asked a question as a consumer because I could not find the answer anywhere. My dealer could not answer it and none of the Hot Springs guys on here could show me any proof either. I hope others who will ask the exact same question in the future don't get the base answer, "it's the best in the industry" If it is the best which it just might be, show me proof that it is. It's not that hard of a thing to do.
Sorebikr if you took the time to look at all my post I have been all over on this site. I try to help others when I can. I am learning about hot tubs so I might in the future be able to help others. Again if you took any time to read my post I have stated numerous times I would have bought the Hot Springs if my wife would have liked it. How does that make me a troll?
I have been on this planet for many years. I have seen to many times people believe what ever is told to them and don't think for themselves. If some one would have posted that Consumers Reports or any other trusted independent company did a test on five major hot tubs and Hot springs was the best at keeping the water clean then this thread would have ended after the second post. It never happened did it sorebikr?
Why are you still so worked up about something a salesperson told you? You disliked the presentation and walked away, fine. Why do you continue to beat it to death? Something just doesn't add up quite frankly.
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Well boys and girls it's time to put this to bed. After 4 pages of remarks and answers NO ONE could show an independent study showing that Hot Springs no bypass and 5 filter system keeps the water cleaner then the other top manufactures. It is up to the consumer to decide if it does.
I'm just a normal...well my wife doesn't think IM normal.....guy. I had a question that I'm sure has and will be asked many many more times. If you sell HS then your system is the best. If you sell something else then your system is the best. This is how every thing works. Ford trucks vs Chev truck. Which is better? My brain works a little different. If I'm told that a product is better then some one else you better have proof because I will call you on it. Hot Springs was the ONLY company that told me that their system was better then every one else. I said prove it. They couldn't.
I would recommend Hot Springs spas to any one who asked me. Great company and hot tub. I would also recommend other companies because they have different features then HS. Thank god for competition it is a great thing.