Hot Tub Forum
Original => Hot Tub Forum => Topic started by: pacificnw on January 23, 2013, 04:12:56 pm
-
After much research, I narrowed my tub choices down to the Beachcomber 321 and 340 models. However, I need some feedback from people who have had first-hand experience using [any] 110v hot tub in a moderately cold climate.
I live in Vancouver BC (the Pacific Northwest), where nighttime temperatures in the winter are around 30F-32F. I'd like to be able to use the hot tub for 45-60 minutes at a time with one other person. Installing a 220v hot tub legally is simply not an option. The cost of upgrading our 100 amp service would be astronomical, not to mention all the permits and inspections, and we simply don't have enough amperage available now to accommodate another 40 amps.
One electrician offered to do an illegal hookup (by just running the cable around the house like a garden hose for ~$700). That's not only dangerous, but it would also void our house insurance. Although there's no way I'm going to do that, I'm guessing that at least half the hot tub owners around here aren't complying with regulations.
Beachcomber is a local company (headquartered about 30 minutes from where I live), so you'd think they'd design a tub that would work well in this climate, 110v or otherwise, but everyone I've talked to (except for the hot tub salespeople) says to avoid 110v hot tubs. They suggest the temperature will drop off like a rock after 10-20 minutes.
My understanding is the heater will operate when the pumps are on low, but will I find the jets to be too low powered? I'm not looking for a fantastic massage or a tub to throw long parties in. I just like sitting in hot fizzy water for an hour each night.
So can anyone substantiate these claims? I'd really like to get a hot tub, but I'm not going to spend thousands of dollars if I'm only going to get 20 minutes of use out of it.
Thanks in advance!
-
My experience comes from a tub that my folks had several years ago. It was 110v and utilized a friction heater. In other words, the water got hot by the main pump pushing the water through a set of tubes that are specifically designed to make the water turbulent and heat it up before returning it to the tub. You could use the jets on high and get heat. That was the only way to get heat, really. In the cold with the cover off, the tub did a miserable job at holding temp. I recall losing around 2-3 degrees in 20 minutes. When not in use, it ran a lot to hold temp even with the cover on. It really was a crappy tub, though. Not well insulated, no-name components, etc. I say "was" because it wore out two pumps and a control pack as well as sprung two leaks all in around 3 years. I don't even know the manufacturer, but I know they don't even make them anymore. Dad couldn't get parts anymore, and we hauled it to the dump.
I would advise you to avoid a tub without a real heater (or one from a no-name builder) for the above reasons. If all you want is warm water with some fizz, then you might be OK in the winter. It kind-of sounds like you really want a tub, though. So, if all you can do is 110, then just make sure by testing one that you are OK with the jet action on low before you buy. The only thing worse than getting no tub is paying a lot of money for a tub you don't like or use. Good luck!
-
My experience comes from a tub that my folks had several years ago. It was 110v and utilized a friction heater. In other words, the water got hot by the main pump pushing the water through a set of tubes that are specifically designed to make the water turbulent and heat it up before returning it to the tub. You could use the jets on high and get heat. That was the only way to get heat, really. In the cold with the cover off, the tub did a miserable job at holding temp. I recall losing around 2-3 degrees in 20 minutes. When not in use, it ran a lot to hold temp even with the cover on. It really was a crappy tub, though. Not well insulated, no-name components, etc. I say "was" because it wore out two pumps and a control pack as well as sprung two leaks all in around 3 years. I don't even know the manufacturer, but I know they don't even make them anymore. Dad couldn't get parts anymore, and we hauled it to the dump.
I would advise you to avoid a tub without a real heater (or one from a no-name builder) for the above reasons. If all you want is warm water with some fizz, then you might be OK in the winter. It kind-of sounds like you really want a tub, though. So, if all you can do is 110, then just make sure by testing one that you are OK with the jet action on low before you buy. The only thing worse than getting no tub is paying a lot of money for a tub you don't like or use. Good luck!
Most 110V spas do come with a heater and work well in most climates though they do have limiations compared to 220V spas which is the best setup but sometimes the spa owner has issues with running 220V. I agree that you want a spa with a heater, those small spas that have no heater and use a friction pump can be fine but only if you're talking about places like California, Nevada, Arizona...
-
After much research, I narrowed my tub choices down to the Beachcomber 321 and 340 models. However, I need some feedback from people who have had first-hand experience using [any] 110v hot tub in a moderately cold climate.
I live in Vancouver BC (the Pacific Northwest), where nighttime temperatures in the winter are around 30F-32F. I'd like to be able to use the hot tub for 45-60 minutes at a time with one other person. Installing a 220v hot tub legally is simply not an option. The cost of upgrading our 100 amp service would be astronomical, not to mention all the permits and inspections, and we simply don't have enough amperage available now to accommodate another 40 amps.
One electrician offered to do an illegal hookup (by just running the cable around the house like a garden hose for ~$700). That's not only dangerous, but it would also void our house insurance. Although there's no way I'm going to do that, I'm guessing that at least half the hot tub owners around here aren't complying with regulations.
Beachcomber is a local company (headquartered about 30 minutes from where I live), so you'd think they'd design a tub that would work well in this climate, 110v or otherwise, but everyone I've talked to (except for the hot tub salespeople) says to avoid 110v hot tubs. They suggest the temperature will drop off like a rock after 10-20 minutes.
My understanding is the heater will operate when the pumps are on low, but will I find the jets to be too low powered? I'm not looking for a fantastic massage or a tub to throw long parties in. I just like sitting in hot fizzy water for an hour each night.
So can anyone substantiate these claims? I'd really like to get a hot tub, but I'm not going to spend thousands of dollars if I'm only going to get 20 minutes of use out of it.
Thanks in advance!
Hot Spring has made 110V spas for years so I understand them well and they work well but you have to understand the limitations which you mostly do and your climate isn't too bad. The heater will come on if the jet pump is on low but those jets on low are not therapeutic really so its almost like being in the tub with the jets off but if you like hot water it'll be fine and you can run it on high maybe about a third of the time you are in it though an hour is stretching it when your temps are their lowest. Some 110V spas are that way period while some are made to be convertible meaning you can run them either way allowing the owner to upgrade if they so choose. I'm not sure of Beachcomber but if possible why not get a convertible type and start out running it 110V to see if it works for you and if it doesn't you can plan the subpanel upgrade later on.
-
Thank you both for replying. It's good to hear everyone's experiences because (at the moment) I don't know anyone who owns a 110v hot tub, so there's no way for me to test one outside of a store.
Beachcomber is a high-end brand that competes with Hot Springs / Hot Spot (at least in Canada), so quality shouldn't be an issue. They're supposed to be heavily insulated, and both the 321 (round tub) and 340 have a separate heater. The 340 actually comes as 220v by default, but the factory can switch it to 110v upon request. The 321 comes as 110v by default (I believe), but I've seen literature that says it can be setup for 220v.
Yes, I'd quite like to have my own hot tub, but I'm only willing to buy a quality brand (like Beachcomber or Hot Spring/Hot Spot) to avoid getting a lemon. Of course that means paying more for the product...
I guess I'll have to wait until I find someone that owns a 110v unit around here, so I can see it operating outside, at night.
-
I have a nordic retreat on 110 iin Massachusetts where it gets pretty cold in the winter. If I use it with the jets on high speed got 30 minutes the temp will drop a couple of degrees. I like it around a 100 degrees so I set it a little warmer in the winter months. As far as cost to run it I have noticed almost no change n my summer electricity bill and about 30-40 dollars more n the winter
-
Thanks for sharing your experience, Hottubguy. Those numbers sound reasonable, and your winters would be colder than here. (Right now we're above freezing.) I've heard Nordic is good. I will have to look into those.
-
I may have found a compromise: place the hot tub in a greenhouse. While it's not a substitute for a 220v tub, the greenhouse should slow down the heat loss enough to get some more time out of each session, say 45 minutes instead of 20-30. Thoughts? Our nights are currently above freezing (i.e. today = high 43F / low 37F).
-
I may have found a compromise: place the hot tub in a greenhouse. While it's not a substitute for a 220v tub, the greenhouse should slow down the heat loss enough to get some more time out of each session, say 45 minutes instead of 20-30. Thoughts? Our nights are currently above freezing (i.e. today = high 43F / low 37F).
That would work but if you don't already have a geren house I wouldn't buy one just yet. I'd first try it as is and then add it later if you think you need it based on your expereinece because unless you're running those jets a lot you might be just fine in your climate.
-
I am also looking, are the jets in the 110V necessarily less powerful than a 220?
CH
-
Thanks for the suggestion, Spatech_tuo. There are some fairly inexpensive prefab greenhouse out there for under $1,000, so I'm just starting to look into this.
CH, I think it depends on the make and model, but in general, the jets might be a bit less powerful due to the smaller pumps they use. That said, a Hot Spring / Hot Spot dealer was showing me one (it was either the SX or Bolt) and it had pretty powerful jets. The salesperson said it was a 110v unit.
Any warnings I've received from people had more to do with the heater not running while the jets are on full, rather than the jets themselves being a problem. Unfortunately, it's not easy to demo a 110v unit. When the stores do have them on the floor, they're usually empty. Naturally the showrooms focus more on displaying their higher-end products, which are almost always 220v tubs.
-
No has yet to ask.....why not just put in a 220v spa? Most 110v spas require a 20a circuit and code requires a dedicated circuit as well.. In most cases that means that even for a 110v spa, you STILL have to run a new dedicated circuit to it.
-
Most cities, including the one I live in, require you to submit a permit application to the city when you install a hot tub or pool. It's something most salespeople I've encountered avoid mentioning, and I doubt most people file for the permit, anyway. But there are certain requirements you're supposed to meet: for pools your fence must be a certain minimum height; for hot tubs you must either meet the fencing requirement [or] have a locking cover on your tub. They also want to know if you're going to put the tub on a deck that is over 2' in height. After you submit your plan, they will have someone come out and inspect your installation to make sure it meets those basic requirements. However, the city does [not] do an inspection on your electrical system, nor do they ask about wiring on your application. In fact, they're more concerned that you're not going to drain your chlorinated water into the sewer system. I know this because I've been talking to them.
Here, if you decide to install a 220v line, then your electrician is supposed to submit a permit/inspection application to another safety board who sends someone out to check [only] that new line for compliance. (I've talked to that department too.) The safety inspector then submits his findings to the city. But again, this process is only necessary if you're upgrading your electrical system, and it's a separate issue from the hot tub / pool permit. I agree that you want it on a dedicated circuit, though, but the tubs I'm looking at are 15 amp, not 20.
I [could] put in a 220v spa. There are plenty of electricians who are willing to do an illegal install for a few hundred dollars. However, I won't be able to get a hot tub permit from the city, which would mean a huge fine if I'm caught. It also pretty much voids my house insurance if anything like a fire happens.
My house currently has 100 amp service. We have a washer and dryer, electric hot water tank, and electric heaters. The electricians have assured me that, although we could technically handle the 220v/40 amp tub on our existing system, it would not meet the saftey codes. To do that we would need to upgrade to 200 amps by running another line from the street. That would cost a minimum of $3,000 to even get started.
I agree 220v tubs are superior, but they're simply not an option for some people. Maybe down the road if I find I love hot tubbing that much, I may decide to upgrade my electrical service. But when you're just starting out, it's too steep an investment.
Believe me, it's been an extremely frustrating process. Nothing like the sales pitches!
-
Your frustration comes through loud and clear. However, none of those requirements are that arduous or out of the norm. In my case, the cover didn't need to lock, but it needed to be rated at a certain level so that small children could walk across it. Little did I know at the time that virtually all covers are now made to this standard. As for locking? Yeah, that'll cost you $5. Maybe ten. The decking? Well, decks need to have railings if they're over 2' high. Not a crazy requirement either.
Upgrading the electrical can be a pain in the butt, had to do it on an old house that used to have an illegal apt and had two 60amp boxes on the house. Even though that was over 100amps of service, it was no longer code and needed to be replaced, so we went ahead with upgrading to 200amp service. Like you said, the whole job was around $3500. (It shouldn't be $3k just to get the line to the house).
His ask about "why not a 220 tub" wasn't meant to antagonize. And there are good 110 tubs out there. There also happens to be 2 or 3 active threads right now where people have cheaper tubs, that happen to be 110, that can't keep up with this cold snap. So we were just curious about your situation.
-
Sorry if that came across as angry. It wasn't intended to be. I was just explaining that I've done as much research as I can reasonably do, and I've determined there are only two options available: 110v or no tub. I don't know if the upgrade and line can be installed for $3,500 (rates can vary greatly by region), but it would also create quite a mess, as they'd need to cut out portions of our basement wall and ceiling. I'm also told that the 220v line has to be buried at least 2' underground, which with the hard rocky/clay soil we have would be no small task.
I'm not concerned about the city's permit requirements. As you said, most hot tub manufacturers already make their covers up to code, and Beachcomber's covers include the mandatory locks. I'm also no putting the hot tub on a deck, but I understand their concerns about decks over 2' in height. The only thing I find challenging is their asking for "three sets of plans." It's been years since I've worked with AutoCAD, and it seems a bit overkill for a portable hot tub (that can be moved around). I'm planning to talk to them in person, as the woman on the phone said they'd help walk me through the process.
I'm probably going to purchase a tub with the smallest volume of water necessary for heating (i.e. the round 321 model which is about 60 gallons less than the rectangular 340 model). Although we had some colder 32F nights last week, the temps can be as high as 50F in the day and 40F at night, as they have been these last two days, so I wouldn't really class this area as an extremely cold climate.
-
When I was having a fence put around my backyard, I needed a permit for the fence, and then an exemption to allow the fence to be along the sidewalk instead of from the back of it. For both of those things the city needed plans. I went into Print Shop and started inserting lines and boxes. I hit print and labelled it with a pen. The city was totally fine with that.
For the electrical permit, which was just running a line from the box, up and across just under the roof, down the corner of the house, under the paver pad, and up on the back side of the pad. The electrician just sketched it out with a pen. The city was fine with that.
Cities are different, but the plan thing may not be as hard as you're expecting.
But then, in my city, we're required to drain tubs and pools so that the water runs into the sewer. The water is then captured, goes through treatment, and is then returned to the lake. They don't want the water lost into the ground. It's too valuable. Cities are different.
-
"three sets of plans" means three copies, of one set of plans.
-
Thanks for the input. You're probably right; I asked the woman on the phone at the development office if they reject many hot tub applications and she said no. I'll be driving by the city hall later today. Even though it's Saturday, there's a small chance they might have a clerk at the desk <crosses fingers> and I can clarify what they expect for "plans". Since most people don't have AutoCAD or drafting experience and aren't going to hire a firm for $$$ to draw up plans, I'm guessing the basic sketch you described will be acceptable.
-
Now I'm intrigued...If this doesn't involve a deck, and is simply a portable hottub, not plans -should- be necessary as its not part of your unit's structure anymore than one of those inflatable pools would be. I wonder if you could draw your backyard and put a circle in the middle (or a pushpin) and say, "its goin' there".
Any chance you could get a 2nd opinion on the electrical? I think the distance from the house may help determine if it needs to be buried or not, or if conduit would suffice. Goodluck to you.
-
I saw where you stated the ground was hard to work and thought 24" depth would be difficult. I believe if rigid conduit (threaded and harder to install than PVC) can be with only 6" of coverage to meet NEC
-
Thank you for your replies. I actually haven't made it to the city development office yet. I'm still waiting on the hot tub manufacturer to answer a few more questions. They've been pretty good so far.
Where I live, any body of water over 18" deep requires a permit. On the one hand I don't have a problem with them making sure everything is safe. However, the cost of the permit [here] is based on the value of the tub and/or deck, which sounds more like a tax to me... probably more of a revenue generator for the city than anything else. The ink and paper sketch is probably good enough, but I'll report back when I find out for certain.
I doubt most people with hot tubs or above ground pools are actually filing for permits. But I read an article from a few years ago where the local cities/authorities were going after people who had "higher than normal" electricity consumption, thinking these were grow ops. Most of them turned out to be hot tub owners and people growing vegetables with hydroponic equipment, but the cities still slapped them with thousands of dollars in fines. So better to be in their books legally than to get a knock on the door one day.
As for 220v, we called several electricians, and everyone said we were looking at thousands due to the electrical codes we need to meet in order to pass inspection. You may be right about the required depth being less than 24". I'm just going by what one electrician told me, but he wasn't suggesting I bury the line; instead, he wanted to run the cable around the house from the front into the back like a garden hose -- totally illegal.
I believe a proper install would mean running the additional 100 amp line from the street to our box, and then running the 220v line through the ceiling, out the garage, and into the backyard. At that point there would only be ~10' to 15' of trench to dig for the wire -- if that. But this is really outside of my area of expertise.
-
The utility line from the street may or may not be sized correctly to upgrade to 200 amp service. The utility company operates with different codes regarding the sizing of wire to ampacity than inside wiring (NEC). They will not run another set of wires to your house from the street, but may need to upsize the existing wire.
Have you considered other factors you may gain by upgrading your service to 200 amps? It sounds like you are mostly all electric and with just about everything taking power these days having enough circuitry is becoming a necessity. I was looking at some new electrical ranges awhile back and they are specifying 50 amps 230 volt. You may find your self in the future wanting more capacity and breaker space for these types of items or supplying dedicated circuits for areas of your home that are under-circuited now.
Hey, I am just trying to help you justify the cost... :)
-
Thanks, I didn't know they could upgrade the existing wire as an alternative. I live on a street where all the houses are 35-year-old cookie-cutter copies of each other. Our neighbor installed an in-ground, heated swimming pool many years ago, and about 10 years ago the guy who bought the house from him installed an expensive hot tub on a wooden deck.
The first owner was a professional pool installer by trade, and the second owner, who installed the hot tub, is a lawyer. He made sure to upgrade all the fencing etc. to comply with the newer regulations. I'm pretty sure his pool and hot tub are 100% legal installations running on 220v power, so they got the 200 amp service in there somehow.
The house I'm living in actually belongs to my dad. He's been surprisingly cooperative, given that he's not too interested in hot tubs. He was even willing to upgrade to 220v even though it meant cutting through his drywall and plaster. The main problem for us right now is simply cost. Money is tight.
The good news is that the round tub I'm planning to purchase can be upgraded to 220v. I'm going to give it a try and if I really get into it, I'll consider saving up the money to upgrade the electrical system and the hot tub pump/heater.
-
I have a Hot Springs Jetsetter that is 110V (or 220V if I ever want to go there) and I have to say we are pretty happy with it. We also live in the Pacific NW (Portland) and find that the jets are very powerful and the temp stays pretty steady. Although, we don't run the jets for more than 10 minutes because conversation can be overheard by the entire neighborhood, and actually prefer sitting in quiet, still water. I used to have a Jacuzzi (220V) whose jets were lackluster, but temp was consistent. I prefer the 110V. And I definitely prefer the Hot Springs tub.
-
I used to own a Softtub spa 6 seater (meaning 4). I had it running in - 30 - -40C temps in Saskatchewan and used it in those temps...It kept the water hot just fine but if you were using it at very cold temps., it couldn't keep up for more than 1/2 hr or so with the lid off...biggest drawback was that because the heat came only from the pump....it took a good 24hrs. to heat up after refilling.... I then b ought a "real" hot tub a few years later and never looked back.... I'd say they're fun if that's all you can afford....
-
Thank you both for sharing your experiences with 110v hot tubs. It sounds like they'd be fine for this climate, especially since Portland is similar to Vancouver in that respect. And hey, if a soft tub can hold heat in Saskatchewan, that's pretty darn good!
As a follow-up to my earlier post, I did talk to the city development office, and the information on this board is correct: they only need a simple sketch. Drawing your property and house as boxes with a rough measurement of how far your hot tub will be from the property line is all they ask for.
I admit I'm fairly naive in regards to hot tubs, and I've learned a lot in this process. I was hoping to use an extension cord temporarily until I got the 110v wiring running out to where the tub was going, but I've since learned that's a total no-no. My dad is also not 100% sure if the circuit we were planning to use has any other devices on it and since the house (i.e. drywall) is completely finished, it's not easy to tell what's wired to what. So the saga continues... wiring up 220v may not be too much more hassle or expensive than using 110v.
Interesting thing is my house is 35 years old. My friend just bought a house that's only a few years old, and he was thinking of installing a hot tub too. His brother is an electrician and, according to him, his house has the exact same problems mine does: 100 amp service and no lines/plug in the backyard to use. I certainly envy anyone who can install a hot tub legally without going through all this. I guess you either have to be able to afford the wiring upgrades or be lucky enough to purchase a property that's got everything ready to go.
-
House wiring is typically built with 4-8 or more receptacles on a single circuit. The theory for the design and builder is that it is cheaper and each outlet would not typically carry a load at the same time. Hopefully your receptacles are on a 20 amp branch circuit and not a 15 amp circuit. The higher end of this design was more common in older homes as they did not know of today's explosion in electrical appliances. (Think of an older kitchen that may just have one circuit where today it may have 3 seperate circuits)
To find out what is on the outlet you intend to use just plug in a lamp or radio and have someone else start turning off breakers one at a time until it goes off. Once identified leave it off and move the lamp to other outlets in the vicinity and adjoining rooms. This will show you what is all on this circuit and sometimes you can move things around, but it is best if the circuit is a new dedicated so you do not trip the breaker and possibly freeze the lines in your tub.
They make "twin" breakers that fit in one panel space if you are just short on room, but ok for total connected load (100amp)
These can free up a space and you just need to make sure that whatever is moved from A or B phase stays the same as a neutral wire may be shared. (trust me on this one)
As for friends house, yes they still do build them with 100 or 125 amp services, but they usually have natural gas heating, water, etc to keep the electrical load down.
All of this advice is just to provide a better understanding and the best thing to do is have a dedicated line put in.
FWIW
-
Thanks, I'll try that. I'd really like to get a hot tub to relax in after work, so I'm going to do my best to make this work.