Hot Tub Forum
Original => Hot Tub Forum => Topic started by: Walter White on December 25, 2012, 02:39:35 pm
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One week after purchasing my new hot tub, I developed Hot Tub Folliculitis (Dermatologist said she thinks I have a particularly severe case of it). I did not see any white flakes anywhere in the spa, nor was there any white snotty stuff in the filters, both of which I'm told are telltale signs of Pseudomonas. What I had noticed was a bacterial smell from the tub, just above the waterline. It smelled the way a sponge starts to smell if you leave it soaking wet in the kitchen sink for weeks at a time.
A relevant sidenote: as I was filling my spa, I called my dealer and asked him for "Day One of Spa Owning 101." For a first-time spa owner, making sure you do everything right can be kind of overwhelming. For instance, I didn't know whether to start by balancing the pH or what. As I was calling him I was figuring that's where I'd start. But he said I don't have to bother with balancing pH so long as I change the water svery three months. He said just use the shock (MPS), the "Stain Out," and put a couple bromine tablets in the floater and everything will be fine. These were all chemicals he had provided me as freebies. So I did as he said, and a week later I had this terrible rash. (It weeped puss, caused severe feverish syndromes, and responded to antibiotics... this is very clearly bacterial, not a bromine allergy or something).
Anyway, following decontamination instructions I found on the web, I soaked my spa filters in 10% sodium hypochlorite for about 5 hours, used spa purge, drained my water the next morning(it was clear), spray and scrubbed all the walls and the underside of the spa cover with the 10% bleach solution, refilled the spa, balanced the pH, then added enough dichlor to raise Chlorine levels to 100ppm and ran jets for 1.5 hours. Then I drained the water again, refilled it, balanced the pH, shocked the water with dichlor.
By this time I was starting to get the hang of water balancing, although the day after using the refilled tub, I was surprised to see the Br level was down to zero. I immediately added dichlor and for a couple days used dichlor to maintain sanitation levels while scratching my head because it seemed excessive. Some research led me to a post explaining packets of granular sodium bromide are needed to establish a bromine base. I don't know how a new spa owner could reasonably be expected to know that since it doesn't say that anywhere on the bromine tablet container or the spa instructions and none of the pool and spa professionals I spoke to said anythjng about it, but my guess is pseudomonas developed because that bromine base was never established. I imagine my bromine readings were at 1 or 0ppm during the week after I got the spa. During that time, I went in the spa once a day for about 25 minutes. My fiancee joined me twice and another friend once.
Reason for the long winded story: after returning from vacation, the bacterial smell is back, even though I gave it a good dichlor shock before leaving and upon return I found that pH=7.2 and Br=7ppm.
I scrubbed down the walls just above the waterline with bleach, but I'm still not excited about going back ito that tub. Any ideas what's going on here and what course of action I should take? Is the bacterial smell necessarilly an indicator that the decontamination process failed? Could it be a less serious matter? Did the pseudomonas get permanently reintroduced into the spa in the 12 hours between when I went in and saw the next morning that bromine had already dropped from 5 to 0?
Did I reintroduce pseudomonas into the tub? A biologist and a nurse practitioner both had told me that after 8 days on antibiotics and with the rash fading quickly and no longer weeping, I would not reinfect the hot tub by going in it. However, at about the same time, I stopped taking the antibiotic because it appeared the rash was gone and and I was only waiting for the skin to heal. But a couple of days after I went back into the tub, which was also a couple of days after I stopped taking antibiotics, my symptoms came back, so I started taking antibiotics again. So it's possible I reinfected the tub, or that the tub reinfected me, or maybe neither...maybe I never completely wiped it out before stopping antibiotics.
Owning a hot tub is less relaxing than I anticipated :).
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Every time a doctor put me on antibiotics, they said, "take them all, do not stop taking them even if the symptoms go away."
HTH
8)
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One thing I have told a few folks: while you are doing a cleansing, be sure you run the jets often, and run them ALL. By that I mean turn any diverter valves so water flows through all jets. And if your spa has a blower, run it several times per day. And if you have drain(s) be sure to let some water flow out of them while the chlorine is high. You are looking for any part of your tub where water may just sit. Those nooks can harbor the mold, and cause it to bounce right back. Water features are a great place for this to happen.
HTH
8)
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Pseudomonas is a fairly common bacteria so even if you didn't introduce it yourself, it could still get into the spa. The key is to kill it or at least make sure it cannot reproduce with abandon. Chlorine or bromine will kill it, but if you let the level get to zero (or very close), then the bacteria can grow and once it forms biofilms then even normal chlorine or bromine levels won't kill it. So it is VERY important to MAINTAIN a chlorine or bromine level in the spa. MPS is NOT a disinfectant unless it is used in conjunction with silver ions as with the Nature2 system.
Many people woefully underestimate how much oxidizer/disinfectant it takes to handle their bather waste. The bromine tabs can maintain a background level of bromine in the longer gaps in between soaks but they generally won't handle a higher bather load such as your using the spa every day. 20 minutes of soaking in a hot spa without an ozonator (does your spa have an ozonator?) would need a little more than 1 teaspoon of Dichlor or almost 2 fluid ounces of 6% bleach or a little more than 2 teaspoons of non-chlorine shock (MPS) to oxidize the bather waste. As you recognized, for bromine you needed to have a sodium bromide bank to start with, but if you used Dichlor then that at least adds chlorine even if you don't have a bromide bank. The problem is primarily that you were not adding enough disinfectant regularly to keep up with the bather load and once you get behind and the levels get to zero, all hell breaks loose.
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thanks guys. Chem Geek... yes, my spa has an ozonator. Chas: the doc intentionally gave me a longer prescription than she expected I would need. She only wanted me to use the entire prescription if my infection proved particularly stubborn and long-lasting. It looks like I did stop taking the antibiotics too early, though. Also, I did run all the jets and waterfalls during the decontamination. One thing I didn't do was actually take the pipes apart, look inside them, and vaccuum the plumbing out.
A week after coming back home and noticing the recurrence of the bacterial smell above the waterline (and scrubbing it down with bleach), the smell has not returned. Is a bacterial smell just above the waterline ever a minor issue, or does it strongly suggest the pseudomonas is back?
Also, does anybody know who can I take a water sample to to test for Pseudomonas?
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You can have bacterial biofilm form above the water line even in a properly chlorinated spa, it's just less frequent. The area above the waterline is moist from water vapor, but doesn't get heavily chlorinated because it is not submerged in the water. There are several ways of reducing this problem. The easiest is to use a scum ball to remove floating organic contaminants so that they do not all stick to the spa walls and become food for bacteria. Another approach is what you did which is to wipe the sides of the spa whenever they aren't squeaky clean (if you do this regularly, you can probably just use spa water for this and not need to use bleach). However, with your spa properly chlorinated, you should have less problems.
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The first water test to the experienced hot tubber is sight and smell. When you can smell the water, see a tinge of color, a haze or cloudy water something is wrong that requires your attention. This is when you need to test the water.
How do you know your ozonator is working? I am a strong proponent of ozone, and indications are it is not doing it's job. Does you spa have an ozone icon that let's you know if it is working, or drawing electric? Different spas operate their ozone systems differently. it would help to know if you can determine IF the ozone is working. Ozone is a sanitizer/oxidizer that should be working on the water without your attention if it is working properly.
Chlorine will certainly eradicate any bacteria within the tub, but then, so should the ozone.
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How do you know your ozonator is working?
I had the same question. When my troubles started I brought in a spa maintenance pro to give me some pointers and I asked him whether it was working, and how I could tell if it was. He said there's no way a person can tell if the ozone is working, but he nevertheless assured me that it was. That didn't make a whole lot of sense to me but I've heard crazier ideas from some of the bro scientists of the pool and spa world.
I can say when I open up the panel and look inside the spa, the little indicator light on the blue ozone box is on. Really that's the only direct evidence I've seen that it's working. The spa control panel is very simple/minimal and I don't believe it has an "ozone is working" icon. Do you have any suggestions for how to make sure the ozone is working?
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Many people woefully underestimate how much oxidizer/disinfectant it takes to handle their bather waste. The bromine tabs can maintain a background level of bromine in the longer gaps in between soaks but they generally won't handle a higher bather load such as your using the spa every day. 20 minutes of soaking in a hot spa without an ozonator (does your spa have an ozonator?) would need a little more than 1 teaspoon of Dichlor or almost 2 fluid ounces of 6% bleach or a little more than 2 teaspoons of non-chlorine shock (MPS) to oxidize the bather waste.
These are very helpful, thankyou. Do I need to increase these amounts if there were multiple people in the spa simultaneously? How much should I use if I do have an ozonator?
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You should dose roughly proportionally to the number of bather-hours, so number of people in the spa times the length of time they are in the spa. Though I know the rough guidelines for how much is needed when there is no ozonator, a functioning ozonator should reduce this, but how much depends on the strength of the ozonator. What you should do is just add enough so that you still measure a disinfectant residual 24 hours later as well as just before your next soak if that's not the next day. You don't ever want it getting to zero.
With no ozonator, the rule of thumb is that every person-hour of soaking in a hot (104ºF) tub requires 3-1/2 teaspoons of Dichlor, 5 fluid ounces of 6% beach or 7 teaspoons of non-chlorine shock (43% MPS). With an ozonator, it's about half these amounts, but depends on the ozonator.
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How do you know your ozonator is working?
I had the same question....the little indicator light on the blue ozone box is on....Do you have any suggestions for how to make sure the ozone is working?
You describe what may be a Dell CD Ozone MCD-50 with a green idicator light. When the light is on it IS producing ozone. There is a test for ozone which amounts to a glass vile that you clip the ends off and put in the ozone supply line. If it is producing ozone, you will see the blue immediately begin to change to white. The blue usually disappears within 30 seconds. The speed of the change in color, indicates the volumn of ozone being supplied.
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Although I've been following chem geek's instructions religiously, I found two small thin sheets of semi-transparent white stuff in my spa:
(http://s9.postimage.org/m2rn64tnj/image.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/grcqlf7kr/full/)
(http://s9.postimage.org/ujr5h1ycf/image.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/wobii4zyz/full/)
The first sheet was maybe 2 inches by 2 inches and I noticed it floating in the spa. I pulled it apart a little bit trying to figure out what it was. It was semi-elastic, but eventually tore into the several pieces you see above. I found the second sheet in the filter.
I was told pseudomonas can produce "white flaky stuff" that may end up floating in your spa and "white snotty stuff" in the filter. About 25% of the folds in my spa filters show white buildup that looks like this:
(http://s2.postimage.org/vj3dyokw9/image.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/wldkh83ph/full/)
That stuff could be what the pool supply store clerk I spoke to described as "white snotty pseudomonas" but "snotty" isn't the adjective I would use. I thought it might also be chlor brite or bromine tab residual. Last night my bromine level was getting toward the lower end (about 3) so I put a small handful of the powdered/crushed bromine at the bottom of my container of bromine tablets into the filter area. Maybe it's just that? On the other hand, I don't know what else the sheets of white film could be.
Any comments?
photo hosting sites (http://postimage.org/)
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If the white stuff is like tissue paper and falls apart fairly easily, then that's probably white water mold.
I doubt that the ozonator is really working unless the mold was stuck to spa surfaces and not getting circulated.
I think your spa got into such bad shape that simply getting back to using sufficient disinfectant is not enough. You need to thoroughly decontaminate your spa. That means using Spa System Flush as well as super-chlorinating to at least 50 ppm (some say 100 ppm) before doing a complete drain and then a refill.
This just shows how important it is to never let the disinfectant level get too low for too long. Once biofilms or other pathogens get established, normal disinfectant levels won't get rid of them.
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thank you once again, chem geek. The stuff is kind of like rubbery tissue paper. It stretches a little and then pulls apart. sounds like mold to me.
One last question. You may remember I started this thread by describing the full decontamination I did after I got the rash:
following decontamination instructions I found on the web, I soaked my spa filters in 10% sodium hypochlorite for about 5 hours, used spa purge, drained my water the next morning(it was clear), spray and scrubbed all the walls and the underside of the spa cover with the 10% bleach solution, refilled the spa, balanced the pH, then added enough dichlor to raise Chlorine levels to 100ppm and ran jets for 1.5 hours. Then I drained the water again, refilled it, balanced the pH, shocked the water with dichlor.
Is my next move to simply do the same thing again? It seems to me something stronger may be called for in light of the relapse. Like bringing in professionals who can take all the pipes apart until they find the home base of the mold.
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Mmmmm. Well, if you decontaminate again I'd use Spa System Flush instead of Spa Purge and I'd also use AquaFinesse Spa Clean. Between the surfactants and enzymes in these products, they should dislodge whatever may be sticking to the pipes and expose it to the high chlorine levels to kill it off. And yes, when using these products you want to run circulation and jets to have the products get to wherever water may be present.
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In bad cases of biofilm like that we do 3-4 cups of bleach with the tub at 104 and run it over night, then we do a AquaFinesse tablet followed up by Swirl Away....it's a process but it usually gets rid of it.
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I'm going more extreme than anything I've seen here. First we'll do several days of spa algaecide plus high (2oz per day) dichlor.
Then throw away old filters, follow procedure for chemical cleansing here:
http://www.floridahotspring.com/pdf/RemovalofPseudomonasBacteria.pdf
Then Aquafinesse tablet then Spa System Flush.
Then somehow disassemble pipes as much as possible, wet vac them dry, and see if I can find the residence for the bacteria or mold.
Finally, install new filters.
I'm trying to synthesize advice from different sources and err on the side of overkill, but I want to be careful not to mix and match incorrectly. Do I have the order of operations right, above? Do chlorine levels need to be neutralized before using Spa Clean & Spa System Flush?
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Try The Saltwater Spa Scriptures. It will solve your problem.
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Walter, sorry your tub isn't more relaxing. Your problem could be solved quite easily. There is an entire website devoted to this very issue preventhottubrash.com
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All of that just to sell your book?
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Well, over a year later, my pseudomonas problems continue. After going in the spa I develop an itch that persists. If I go in for several days in a row, a feint rash appears on my side and the itch lasts several weeks.
A few white flakes appear in the water if I run the jets for a few minutes. Also, while the jets are going, these white-scum bubbles develop, the fluid dynamics seem to cause the scum to gather toward the center of the spa. It is unsettling to see this white bacterial glob amassing, especially if you're in the water. Turn off the jets and let the bubbles pop and it vanishes into the water leaving it looking crystal clear (aside from those few white flakes).
I followed a process for removal of pseudomonas bacteria (outlined long ago in this thread) that involved using a net to collect these white particles, but after basically spending 3 days straight, sunrise to sunset, the white flakes kept coming.
In the time since I last posted about this, I have used spa purge once and Spa System Flush probably 5 times now. I kept my chlorine levels very high constantly, and superchlorinated (to 100ppm) and raised water levels as high as possible the day before doing a spa flush and refill. I've changed filters twice.
Thanks for listening to my spa horror story. To me it seems clear that the next step is to start taking apart the pipes and trying to hunt down where the stuff has "taken residence." I would love to hand it over to professionals, unfortunately no spa guy in town (Las Vegas) is willing to get into the pipes.
Any ideas for how to pull the spa apart and find the damned bacterial cesspool? I think Chas said that the stuff frequently takes up residence in water features, but I don't know how to get to that part of the spa. Unscrew all the side panels and then disconnect the pipes leading to the waterfall?
blegh. if anyone knows of a spa pro in Vegas that could help me, please pass on his contact info.
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Is your dealer not helping you out? Seems like the dealer you bought it from should be helping you. Things like this make me very leary of buying a spa...I expect a spa to require some work, but what your going through sounds like spa hell...wish I had advise to help you...
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Two things. First, since the time you last reported I found out about Ahh-Some (http://www.ahhsome.com/tubs.php) that people have reported (as do test reports) does a better job than Spa System Flush so I've switched to recommending it instead. Second, did you ever try the Aquafinesse Spa Clean Tablet (http://www.aquafinesse.com/us/product/spa-clean-usa/)? If you've got biofilms, these products are supposed to help get rid of them. I'm really sorry you are still having problems with your spa. If anything works for you, please let us know so we can help others with the same issue.
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Chartreux: My dealer seems to have caused the problem when he told me "Don't worry about balancing pH, just put some bromine tablets in the floater." He wasn't much help when I reported what was going on. If only I had gone to troublefreepool.com or somewhere else that emphasized that water maintenance is NOT to be taken lightly, I suspect things would have been fine. My advice to you is to do tons of homework on water maintenance before you buy a spa.
chem geek: Yeah, I tried the Aquafinesse tablet, too. I'll try Ahh-some on my next flush, thanks for the recommendation. I'll definitely reply here if I find a solution.
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This sounds like something more than a PH issue, probably the longest issue I have ever read of or seen..
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Is it possible that you are allergic to bromine, the MPS or whatever else you put into the water? Or maybe the hot water is drying out your skin. I was under the impression that hot tub rash comes about like chicken pox. Maybe what started out as a dirty tub is now clean but you're sensitive to something in there. I remember reading on Doc's forum and maybe here where people were sensitive to the hot water and they needed to moisturize after exiting the tub.
I have never gotten hot tub rash but my son and a friend went in my tub, the friend got it but my son didn't. I blasted the tub with bleach and super disinfected it after that incident but I am suspecting the friend was sensitive to something in the tub. I guess a person can be more sensitive to the bacteria then another person but I would think it should show up somewhat - one person rashes where the other person itches. I think the fact that if you go into your tub once and don't get the "chicken pox" type rash that it is more of a sensitivity then a infection ... but I am not a doctor and have never had to battle this problem.
As far as taking your spa apart ... I think you will be undertaking a massive and fruitless project. If your spa is full foamed I would think it is impossible, if it is thermopane you may be able to physically clean some of the water ways but I think you'll never get into a water feature successfully.
Hopefully, something will work and you can get to really enjoy your tub!
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Is it possible that you are allergic to bromine, the MPS or whatever else you put into the water? Or maybe the hot water is drying out your skin.
It's possible. Here are my reasons for believing it is bacterial: I have gone in many other hot tubs and pools over the years and never had any sort of reaction. Long ago I switched from bromine to bleach, and I'm not using any of the chemicals that I used in the spa when I first got it (when I got the severe rash and flu-like symptoms that went away after I started antibiotics.). The doc reported my rash was consistent with hot tub folliculitis. The white flakes/white snotty stuff I see in the spa is consistent with descriptions of pseudomonas contamination.
I'm the only one who has ever had symptoms. However, I'm pretty much the only person who goes in the spa. For some reason, my friends aren't crazy about going in :). Even before problems started, friends who did go in only stayed in for maybe 15 minutes, and nobody went in more than once in a month. I've been told some people are more susceptible to pseudomonas than others and I may be one of those people. So my hypothesis is that others are not showing symptoms because they have far less exposure to the bacteria, and are somewhat less vulnerable to it than me.
As far as taking your spa apart ... I think you will be undertaking a massive and fruitless project. If your spa is full foamed I would think it is impossible, if it is thermopane you may be able to physically clean some of the water ways but I think you'll never get into a water feature successfully.
Thanks for the advice. The spa is a Catalina Stealth Samoa. I don't know the difference between full foamed and thermopane, but there is definitely a lot of foam inside it and it sure does seem massive and fruitless so far. I may abort, unfortunately I'm out of ideas so I'll probably just blow all the water out of the lines and leave it empty.
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Things like this make me very leary of buying a spa...I expect a spa to require some work, but what your going through sounds like spa hell...wish I had advise to help you...
Just so you know, this is the most extreme case that I have ever heard of. To be honest, I rarely come across hot tub rash at all. I wouldn't let this story be a factor in your decision to get a spa. Though it is very unfortunate and it stinks that Walter is going through this, this really is an extreme example of a pretty rare phenomenon. I'm personally inclined to think that there is more to the story than appears.
Good luck Walt. I don't have any additional advice over what's been given. Hot tubs can provide many health benefits and it stinks that for you, it has become a health hazard.
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Is it possible that you are allergic to bromine, the MPS or whatever else you put into the water? Or maybe the hot water is drying out your skin.
It's possible. Here are my reasons for believing it is bacterial: I have gone in many other hot tubs and pools over the years and never had any sort of reaction. Long ago I switched from bromine to bleach, and I'm not using any of the chemicals that I used in the spa when I first got it (when I got the severe rash and flu-like symptoms that went away after I started antibiotics.). The doc reported my rash was consistent with hot tub folliculitis. The white flakes/white snotty stuff I see in the spa is consistent with descriptions of pseudomonas contamination.
I'm the only one who has ever had symptoms. However, I'm pretty much the only person who goes in the spa. For some reason, my friends aren't crazy about going in :). Even before problems started, friends who did go in only stayed in for maybe 15 minutes, and nobody went in more than once in a month. I've been told some people are more susceptible to pseudomonas than others and I may be one of those people. So my hypothesis is that others are not showing symptoms because they have far less exposure to the bacteria, and are somewhat less vulnerable to it than me.
As far as taking your spa apart ... I think you will be undertaking a massive and fruitless project. If your spa is full foamed I would think it is impossible, if it is thermopane you may be able to physically clean some of the water ways but I think you'll never get into a water feature successfully.
Thanks for the advice. The spa is a Catalina Stealth Samoa. I don't know the difference between full foamed and thermopane, but there is definitely a lot of foam inside it and it sure does seem massive and fruitless so far. I may abort, unfortunately I'm out of ideas so I'll probably just blow all the water out of the lines and leave it empty.
What you are describing seems like you may be more susceptible to the rash than others and since you've had success going into other tubs then I agree it is something about your tub. Sounds like your problem was the scenario with my son's friend. Sounds reasonable that the white flakes are the biofilm breaking apart unless you have hard water and it's the calcium flaking off. So you've bleached, used one of the products that Chem Geek suggested and are going to use the other ... I never heard of Ahh-some before and actually picked some up on ebay today since my tub has been sitting for a few months unused. If you go to their website they have a prolonged procedure on eliminating a biofilm and it may require a few treatments. They also suggested to have chlorine in the water to kill the bacteria as it strips away the biofilm.
Some questions I have to ask - when you add chlorine (added after you go in) how long does it last? It would seem that at this point if you stripped some of the biofilm layer off the chlorine would attack the exposed bacteria and would dissipate quickly. So if you added 3 PPM chlorine and it lasted with some residue for 2 or 3 hours you tub is chemically "safe" vs it being gone in 20 minutes or less. What is your combined chlorine reading when chlorine is dissipated? If you answered this in the thread I apologize as I didn't read the whole thing and quite honestly Chem Geek can run rings around me about this stuff. Do you soak with some chlorine in the tub - some of us use the Vermonter's method of chlorine disinfection but if you are soaking in the tub without chlorine then that can be a problem - my understanding is if something like bacteria is around and chlorine is present (also assuming you don't have old water with a high level of stabilizer) the bacteria will be killed in 4 to 10 seconds per this website: http://www.waterandhealth.org/matter-fecal-matter-swimming-pool-filters/ but you also have to take into account your body on the chlorine situation.
I'm sure you've run through the gamut but just in case ...whenever I do a super disinfection/spa pipe cleaning I always run the pumps, change the diverters and air and try to get as much action out of the jests as possible. I also try to get as much pressure coming from the separate sections of the diverter. I also run the pumps for at least an hour again running the air at times and not. Also I clean the spa shell with the super chlorinated water, dip the headrests and filter cover into the water for a while as well.
As for the difference in full foam vs thermopane - it sounds like you have a full foam tub ... a thermopane tub would have insulation on the panels of the tub and you would see all the plumbing.
Don't give up just yet! Try the Ahh-some, maybe give it a couple of 24 hour cleanings/disinfections, run the jets and water features and hopefully you'll get to the end of the biofilm problem soon.
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What you are describing seems like you may be more susceptible to the rash than others and since you've had success going into other tubs then I agree it is something about your tub. Sounds like your problem was the scenario with my son's friend. Sounds reasonable that the white flakes are the biofilm breaking apart unless you have hard water and it's the calcium flaking off.
Calcium flaking off is a possibility. Vegas does have hard water. Everyone's refrigerators have white calcium buildup underneath the water dispenser. I'm not getting any more of the big rubbery stretchy pieces (see photo that looks like it has a fingerprint on it earlier in the thread) but I am still getting stuff building up in the filters (see other photo from earlier in the thread). Maybe these are simply calcium.
I just refilled the spa (and superchlorinated it). The water appears mostly clear at first glance, but if you look closer there are hundreds of white particles floating around, mostly maybe about the size of the tip of a ball point pen. When the jets run, this stuff tends to accumulate into the bubbles swirling around, mostly the bubbles in one corner of the spa. Here is some of it, along with grime apparently left over from doing the Spa System Flush (A little bit of the brownish grime always rises to the top of the bubbles when I do a flush, most of it I scoop while the flush is in progress. In the past, the brown stuff has not persisted, unlike the white.), caught on my pool net.
(http://s15.postimg.org/h3ht6ij4r/photo.jpg)
I've seen this many times before. For the most part I can only see this during daylight hours. Once I install the filters and let the circ pump run for a couple of hours, I don't see any particles at all; the water will look crystal clear except for a few (slightly larger) white particles that come out each time I run the jets for a few minutes. Any ideas on how to distinguish calcium flakes from white biofilm particles?
Some questions I have to ask - when you add chlorine (added after you go in) how long does it last? It would seem that at this point if you stripped some of the biofilm layer off the chlorine would attack the exposed bacteria and would dissipate quickly. So if you added 3 PPM chlorine and it lasted with some residue for 2 or 3 hours you tub is chemically "safe" vs it being gone in 20 minutes or less. What is your combined chlorine reading when chlorine is dissipated?
I go in very rarely so I don't have much data on how long a dose of chlorine lasts specifically after a soak. However, I do monitor chlorine on almost a daily basis and have been surprised that it does not deplete rapidly. It depletes more along the lines that I've heard are normal. Like if I get a reading of 4ppm today, 24 hours later I'll get a reading of 3ppm. Does that in itself definitively rule out bacterial contamination as the problem?
In early April I guinea pigged myself, deliberately going in 3 or 4 times in a week. Afterwards my sides were itchy (the same area where the rash was long ago) for several weeks. But it felt itchy in a specific way, I remember the same feeling as before when I definitely had some sort of infection. The best way I can describe it is not so much itchy as "inflamed" or "searing," though the pain level wasn't very high.
Do you soak with some chlorine in the tub?
I pretty religiously make sure Cl is between 2 and 4ppm before I get in.
Many thanks to Vinny and everyone for all the feedback.
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I looked at the other photos and it looks as if that other stuff was rather large and I would say that it could have been a biofilm. The little stuff, I'm not sure if it could be a biofilm or something else. Have you ever tried to use a hose end filter? http://www.spadepot.com/shop/Disposable-Hose-End-Fill-Filter-P785C57.aspx?zmam=55673001&zmas=1&zmac=10&zmap=FC3128&gclid=CJa748rRyr4CFfQbtAodsg8ARg I ask because if the stuff is coming from your water supply it may appear to come from the tub.
I have no idea how to differentiate between calcium or a biofilm.
The brown goop is an indication that the cleanser is finding something to clean ... it could be personal products (hairspray or lotion), body gunk, detergents from clothing or bacteria. I always get brown goop whenever I clean the spa. It's amazing what hot water takes out of our bodies.
The fact that chlorine lasts a while is an indication that there isn't a large amount of bacteria (or any) floating around unattached to a biofilm. From what I've read biofilms tend to be very resistant to regular doses of chlorine which is why people say to use 50-100 PPM chlorine when fighting a biofilm. The high level of chlorine is stripping the layers of the biofilm, killing the bacteria and stripping more layers, killing more bacteria ... From that website I posted it claims that the bacteria for the hot tub rash (not in a biofilm) takes 4-10 seconds to die at 2 PPM chlorine, more chlorine should work a little faster and if not faster last longer to have a longer kill time.
On the area where you were itchy - were jets hitting you around that spot. When I first got my tub I sat in one seat and I noticed that I was always kind of itchy.
Honestly, I guess it could be a biofilm if you have low flow water features in your tub. But if you are maintaining the tub properly (and it sounds like you are), have done spa flushes (and I would still try that Ahh-some), superchlorinated the tub to at least 50 PPM, made sure that all the jets, air and features are running, played around with the diverters while flushing and superchlorinating I don't see how it could be.
If it is calcium you are seeing and you don't have one I would suggest a Taylor test kit, I use the K-2005, and they have a booklet on how to balance water, part of that is adjusting some items (PH and/or alkalinity) because of high water hardness.
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I got a new garden hose after the first incident. I would say the problem is with the tub and not the water supply, because a freshly filled tub is clear until I run the jets.
Yes, the itch was in the regions where jets were hitting my sides. The same was true of the severe rash I got that started the problem over a year ago: it showed up only in spots where jets were blasting me or under my swim trunks.
Honestly, I guess it could be a biofilm if you have low flow water features in your tub. But if you are maintaining the tub properly (and it sounds like you are), have done spa flushes (and I would still try that Ahh-some), superchlorinated the tub to at least 50 PPM, made sure that all the jets, air and features are running, played around with the diverters while flushing and superchlorinating I don't see how it could be.
Well this is good to hear. It sounds like you have the background to be able to visualize what happens below the surface of the spa(?). I just have no clue which makes it pretty hard for me to zero in on sensible explanations. If playing around with the diverters means alternating through all the different possible combinations of jets running, and then experimenting with turning some of the dials near jets from on to off and back, then yes I have done all those things.
I have noticed that most of the white stuff, whatever it is, mostly comes out from the jets at one corner of the spa.
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What model hot tub/spa did you get? Just wondering...
The sell hose filters for spas maybe use a hose filter...might help.
This must be maddening for you, I was hoping things were turning around for you. So very sorry your having to go through all this and left with no help from a dealer...Maybe ask the dealer for some sort of help...
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I got a new garden hose after the first incident. I would say the problem is with the tub and not the water supply, because a freshly filled tub is clear until I run the jets.
Yes, the itch was in the regions where jets were hitting my sides. The same was true of the severe rash I got that started the problem over a year ago: it showed up only in spots where jets were blasting me or under my swim trunks.
Honestly, I guess it could be a biofilm if you have low flow water features in your tub. But if you are maintaining the tub properly (and it sounds like you are), have done spa flushes (and I would still try that Ahh-some), superchlorinated the tub to at least 50 PPM, made sure that all the jets, air and features are running, played around with the diverters while flushing and superchlorinating I don't see how it could be.
Well this is good to hear. It sounds like you have the background to be able to visualize what happens below the surface of the spa(?). I just have no clue which makes it pretty hard for me to zero in on sensible explanations. If playing around with the diverters means alternating through all the different possible combinations of jets running, and then experimenting with turning some of the dials near jets from on to off and back, then yes I have done all those things.
I have noticed that most of the white stuff, whatever it is, mostly comes out from the jets at one corner of the spa.
I guess the white flakes come back every time you run the spa and not just on new water, when you chlorinate do you run all the pumps and make sure no areas are turned off? Are you able to remove a jet and look inside down into the opening, maybe stick a finger in there and see if you feel anything. I found this: http://chemwiki.ucdavis.edu/Inorganic_Chemistry/Descriptive_Chemistry/p-Block_Elements/Main_Group_Reactions/Case_Study%3A_Hard_Water and it explains about hard water.
Yes, the diverters control the amount of water coming out of the jets and can usually turn off a section. A question that I didn't ask before - you are using regular bleach, not scented and not that "splashless bleach" that Walmart is selling that isn't real bleach?
Back when I first purchased my tub there was a lot of discussion about the size of the jets and the irritating affects of smaller vs larger jets ... How large are the jets that cause itchiness? Do you switch seats and do the jets in those seats cause issues? An experiment maybe ... try soaking without using any jets and see how you feel, maybe if one soak goes OK try a few soaks in a row without using the jets and see if any itchiness happens.
I am wondering if the problem is no longer a biofilm but an irritation to having your skin being "roughed up" by the jets regardless if their big or small. If you get a rash while soaking without jets then obviously it is not the jets. What makes me think it's not a biofilm is that the pieces are small and if you are flaking off pieces of the biofilm you would be killing the stuff floating along with the layer below it (possibly). The small flaking I think would indicate that it is dying so at some point it would stop especially when you superchlorinate, spa purge and everything else you probably have done. Also, if it were free floating bacteria and it was hitting your skin while soaking in a tub with chlorine it would be killed in 4 to 10 seconds assuming the water wasn't polluted with bacteria and the fact that chlorine stays in the tub for a while indicates that there isn't that many free floating bacteria.
I am just throwing out things to hopefully have you enjoy your tub!
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Walter,
I don't know how often you come here to either browse or see /add to this thread but I wanted to state that I received the Ahh-some Bio cleaner and it seemed to do some cleaning of gunk.
My tub was just sitting there, not used and full of water ... I kind of got out of soaking in the tub. I needed to order a new cover as the original was 9 YO and probably should have been replaced at least 3 years ago and it is really ratty looking. Anyway since I own the tub and spending money on a new cover I decided that I should get this tub back to the way it was and use it! Since the cover is coming some time this coming week I figured I can take my time and clean the tub well.
My tub is 400 gallons and I used 1 tablespoon of Ahh-some and it foamed up a storm which is what I expected even though it was less product then the company said to use (1 teaspoon for every 100 gallons). The foam turned brown and left a ring around the tub. I am doing the super cleaning and leaving it overnight, run the jets a few more times, will drain, rinse and do another treatment of the Ahh-some again leaving overnight. I am please to see that it cleaned something but I did not see black or white flakes in the water.
I did add bleach as recommended - a lot of bleach - over a quart - figuring I will also kill whatever gets brought up by the cleaner. After a few hours I measured the chlorine level and it was down to 2 and there was a distinct "chlorine smell" which indicates that the chlorine has bonded to something (bacteria?)
I will add my findings after my 2nd treatment, hopefully all the brown gunk was removed today.
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If you smell a lot of chlorine, especially if it's that "pool smell" as opposed to "clean bleach" smell, then that's chloramines and is chlorine bonded to ammonia or sometimes some types of volatile organics. Since I don't know exactly what is in Ahh-Some (I suspect some powerful surfactants, but don't know details) I can't guarantee that the smell isn't from chlorine reacting with something in that product. The main point is to remove biofilms, greases, etc. and kill off any remaining bacteria.
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Chem Geek,
I realize that is is the combined chlorine that smelled but I also didn't know what the chlorine bonded to which is why the ? In the parentheses.
The ahh-some info states that you should use chlorine to kill off the bacteria. It really stunk as I estimate that I put in more then 50 PPM of chlorine. Whether It bonded to bacteria or ahh-some I just thought it was interesting that around 50 PPM of chlorine was used in a few hours. A REALLY DIRTY TUB!
I plan on using the ahh-some again and see if I get more brown gunk. I only bought the 2 oz bottle so I have 1 more tablespoon treatment then a 2 teaspoon treatment if need be. I also have some natural chemistry spa puge coming as I bought that before reading about ahh-some. I have used swirl away in the past but my tub has never been left unattended as it was this winter/spring ... I guess it won't hurt anything to buy more ahh-some if need be.
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Walter,
One last post unless you or anybody else has questions. Seeing what it did to my tub I would be very surprised that if you had any biofilm living in your tub that this product wouldn't remove most or all of it.
I cleaned my tub with that Ahh-some 3 x, the 1st time it was a 12 hour soak and the other 2 was a 24 hour soak. I ran the jets initially on each cleaning and cleaned up the mess that it removed, then I ran the jets intermittently as long as I could before going to bed. The first cleaning got a lot of gunk out during the initial cleaning and the next morning. I drained the tub, cleaned the shell again, refilled and put more Ahh-some in again (less then the original amount) and it took out a lot of gunk again; at the end of the 24 hour run there was considerably less gunk than in the beginning. Repeated with 3rd cleaning - less gunk then what was in the second cleaning and after 24 hours I had very little brown gunk coming out. BTW every cleaning also consisted of using chlorine to kill anything that chlorine kills. I didn't rinse in between cleanings and I left the filters in so maybe some of the brown gunk was coming from the filters in the end. I don't know if a 4th cleaning would have resulted in no gunk but in my opinion my tub is cleaner then when I started. I filled it up to run plain chlorinated water through it to rinse it out - I will be dumping that water on Friday morning (new cover arriving Friday).
I will be finishing the cleaning with at least 10 PPM wash down of the entire shell/headrests using a magic eraser so the shell should be squeaky clean.
Walter, I hope you read this and try the Ahh-some; it seemed to clean a lot in my tub.
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A while back someone asked me to report if I was ever able to resolve the problem. I never did do another round of flushing out the spa... Having tried at least four different spa flush products, weeks of 100ppm superchlorination and lots of draining, scrubbing, and refilling, I had to try something else.
So I just started guineapigging myself, experimenting with short soaks every few days at first, then longer and more frequent ones. Eventually I found the courage to sit in the corner of the jets that produce the white particles. No rash or other problems ever came up.
It's embarassing to admit but the contamination was probably eradicated after the first time I did a decontamination procedure, and I've probably been making a big deal out of nothing ever since. Dunno what to say except thanks to the many people who chimed in with ideas. One thing that's interesting about the whole situation though is that the white particles still come out when I flip on the jets. Don't know what they are and I suspect they'll never go away, but they are apparently harmless.
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Walter, thanks for reporting back and congratulations on solving your problems. Glad you are now able to enjoy your spa. Maybe the white particles are calcium flaking off, as someone had suggested earlier in this thread???
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Walter, thanks for reporting back and congratulations on solving your problems. Glad you are now able to enjoy your spa. Maybe the white particles are calcium flaking off, as someone had suggested earlier in this thread???
Thank you. Yeah, at this point I'm thinking calcium, too.