Hot Tub Forum
Original => Hot Tub Forum => Topic started by: lyncch00 on June 11, 2010, 08:36:55 pm
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Hi, I'm new to the forum and in the very early stages of purchasing a hot tub. I tried one at a resort and it was nice but the chlorine was a turn off. I know there are bromine systems out there as well as ozinators. HotSprings was the only system I saw that came with either the ozinator system or, the salt water generator. Does anybody have first hand experience with the HotSprings salt system? I'm sure there are after market products but I didn't see any other big name hot tubs that come with a salt system. Thanks
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Welcome to the forum!
So far, so good on the ACE Saltwater System. We've had them up and running in our showrooms for 4 months and they have worked great. We've sold several of them and the customers have been pleased. I am a huge skeptic when it comes to most newfangled contraptions, but I am extremely impressed with how easy the ACE system operates and the fantastic quality of the water. Once the water is balanced, you just add a few cups of salt, push a couple of buttons, and the spa takes care of itself.
If the system needs some maintenance, the new LCD color display will advise you as to what adjustments need to take place. You need to clean the electrode every so often (easy to do). The only downside I'm aware of is that the electrode will need to be replaced every 3 years or so...otherwise, it is a terrific system!
Terminator
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how much for a new electrode?
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Salt water generator? This thing generates salt water??? Come on, it's using salt water to create (generate) either CHLORINE or BROMINE.
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I believe the electrode is around $300...can't remember off the top of my head. About $7-13/month for the salt, depending on spa size.
Electrode breaks down the salt molecules into Free Oxygen. FO then combines with elements in the water to produce Chlorine, Hydrogen Peroxide, Ozone, and MPS.
Salt levels are maintained at around 800-1000 ppm. You can't taste or smell any salt in the spa.
It really works great..piece of cake!
Terminator
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Thanks for the info. Sorry if I confused anybody with the words "salt water generator." I know the system does not create salt ,but, you managed to comprehend and answer my question regardless of the incorrect manner in which I phrased the question. I have one more. Is the ACE salt system usead instead of an ozinator or in addition to the ozinator? Thanks again.
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Thanks for the info. Sorry if I confused anybody with the words "salt water generator."
We all knew what you meant, Dr Spa was just being a wise ass. Keep in mind he was the kid in class who would raise his hand just before the bell rang to say " Teacher, you forgot to give us our homework assignment!".
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Something to consider when looking at a salt water chlorine generator - what can or may be affected by the salt water that spills out of the tub and it will. I looked into it for my above ground pool and a manufactures rep strongly suggested that above ground pools will corrode quicker from the splash out. The salt will build up and become more and more corrosive ... could be a problem if it wasn't thought of.
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The salt levels in the ACE Saltwater System are just slightly higher than the salt levels in municipal water supplies. It tastes exactly like the water that comes out of your tap.
Terminator
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Something to consider when looking at a salt water chlorine generator - what can or may be affected by the salt water that spills out of the tub and it will. I looked into it for my above ground pool and a manufactures rep strongly suggested that above ground pools will corrode quicker from the splash out. The salt will build up and become more and more corrosive ... could be a problem if it wasn't thought of.
That's because the bottom rail of most above ground pools are metallic. Yes, salt will corrode those very quickly. I think a hot tub would be quite different in that regard.
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I was thinking anything around the hot tub that can be affected by splashout. But what Term said about salt levels - maybe its a different system in the hot tub than pool.
Something to consider when looking at a salt water chlorine generator - what can or may be affected by the salt water that spills out of the tub and it will. I looked into it for my above ground pool and a manufactures rep strongly suggested that above ground pools will corrode quicker from the splash out. The salt will build up and become more and more corrosive ... could be a problem if it wasn't thought of.
That's because the bottom rail of most above ground pools are metallic. Yes, salt will corrode those very quickly. I think a hot tub would be quite different in that regard.
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I am finally getting up to speed on this system, and yes the salt level is very low. If you water your lawn with tap water, it most likely contains just slightly less salt than what will splash out of your tub. The tap water will also contain far more chlorine...
I said before that the cell was my big concern: in most systems you have to buy a new one and it is a pain to replace. In this system, the cell lives in the filter compartment, inside the core of the filter which has water flow around the clock. That means that if and when it needs attention, you can get right to it without trouble. In fact you don't even have to open the equipment compartment door or anything. AND, that access means that if the cell begins to put out less than normal it can be cleaned and put back into full use. To do so you just soak it in light acid - mix a bit of 'Spa Down' with water, soak it, and drop it back into the filter compartment. Good to go.
I'm liking this thing! My spa at home is too old to fit one, or I would have one. If we can sell a few spas around here, we may get to update.
8)
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You can also get some good information here. http://vimeo.com/12591377 (http://vimeo.com/12591377)
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Vh4kOjDmPQ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Vh4kOjDmPQ)
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That new avatar definitely shows some great Photo Shop skills there Term.
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Thank you, kindly, to be sure!
Here's the original...it's of me and a friend from high school which I posted on Facebook...turned out pretty good, all in all:
(http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b206/EastTexasSpa/stevonidas.jpg)
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The only vendors I see that sell a salt system with their tubs are hot springs and arctic. Thanks for the input. It was very helpful.
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Does the ACE salt water generator ONLY work on Hot Springs Spas? We have a 2003 Arctic Cub, and have read poor reviews of Arctic's Onzen system, so we were looking for an alternative.
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The ACE system also works on LimeLight spas. :)
http://www.limelighthottubs.com/ (http://www.limelighthottubs.com/)
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Does the ACE salt water generator ONLY work on Hot Springs Spas? We have a 2003 Arctic Cub, and have read poor reviews of Arctic's Onzen system, so we were looking for an alternative.
It will only work on Hot Spring (and some other watkins products) because it needs to be linked to that controller just as the Arctic system wouldn't work on other brands.
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what is the advantage of this system ive talked to a dealer and they told me $400 every two years for the electrode and the monthly cost of the salt mentioned here $10-$14 and also they said I would need up to three teabags they called them to make the water soft which would cost me another $120 on each fill up.
so wouldn't it be much easier to keep bromine or chlorine in the hot tub and easier than cleaning the sensor every 2 to 4 weeks?
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what is the advantage of this system ive talked to a dealer and they told me $400 every two years for the electrode and the monthly cost of the salt mentioned here $10-$14 and also they said I would need up to three teabags they called them to make the water soft which would cost me another $120 on each fill up.
so wouldn't it be much easier to keep bromine or chlorine in the hot tub and easier than cleaning the sensor every 2 to 4 weeks?
wrong on all accounts...no dealer that has sold an ACE System would give you any of that info. so thanks for playing Mr. XYZ company rep
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This is a very old thread, and I doubt the OP is still around the forum. However, I would like to point out that you certainly don't have to buy an ACE system to get away from soaking in chlorine. If you use the Freshwater III system which is standard on every HotSpring Highlife Series spa, and an easy option on Limelight Series, along with a N2 cartridge in the filter, you can soak chlorine free. You will need to add chlorine as a shock treatment once a month, or if you entertain a crowd, but otherwise no chlorine. And that chlorine which you DO add once per month is gone in a day or so.
HTH
8)
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I am looking into a HotSpring with ACE. Seeing a lot of issues with the diamond electrode going bad prematurely and causing all sorts of problems for many customers on one of the other forums. Many of them there said the HotSpring techs were told to do some sort of workaround for better flow to help the issues but many have said that didn't help any. Most there are saying to stay clear of it and don't waste the money on it. Many of them say HotSpring has been good about warranting the part but at some point the warranty will run out and you will be stuck in the same boat having to order new electrodes at every fill up.
Has anything changed lately to help matters improve?
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This is a very old thread, and I doubt the OP is still around the forum. However, I would like to point out that you certainly don't have to buy an ACE system to get away from soaking in chlorine. If you use the Freshwater III system which is standard on every HotSpring Highlife Series spa, and an easy option on Limelight Series, along with a N2 cartridge in the filter, you can soak chlorine free. You will need to add chlorine as a shock treatment once a month, or if you entertain a crowd, but otherwise no chlorine. And that chlorine which you DO add once per month is gone in a day or so.
HTH
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Is that N2 cartridge the "FreshWaterAg+® Continuous Silver Ion Purifier" ?
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Yes. It is just like the yellow ones you can buy online, however, it has a slightly larger shoulder so it fits perfectly into the core of one of the filters in a HotSpring - or other Watkins tub.
I sell them for around $30 each, and they are good for four months. That, by the way, is a good interval for water changes if you are running the Freshwater III ozone system.
The ACE system can stretch out the water change interval by quite a bit.
8)
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I am looking into a HotSpring with ACE. Seeing a lot of issues with the diamond electrode going bad prematurely and causing all sorts of problems for many customers on one of the other forums. Many of them there said the HotSpring techs were told to do some sort of workaround for better flow to help the issues but many have said that didn't help any. Most there are saying to stay clear of it and don't waste the money on it. Many of them say HotSpring has been good about warranting the part but at some point the warranty will run out and you will be stuck in the same boat having to order new electrodes at every fill up.
Has anything changed lately to help matters improve?
the "update" you referenced was a loooong time ago, since then the service numbers direct from the factory have "flip flopped" for the good, system works very well now and the people who have bought the system in the last year (since all updates) have been happy with it based on what I'm seeing..fyi we sell a lot of them...I hope everything continues smoothly moving forward
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I am looking into a HotSpring with ACE. Seeing a lot of issues with the diamond electrode going bad prematurely and causing all sorts of problems for many customers on one of the other forums. Many of them there said the HotSpring techs were told to do some sort of workaround for better flow to help the issues but many have said that didn't help any. Most there are saying to stay clear of it and don't waste the money on it. Many of them say HotSpring has been good about warranting the part but at some point the warranty will run out and you will be stuck in the same boat having to order new electrodes at every fill up.
Has anything changed lately to help matters improve?
the "update" you referenced was a loooong time ago, since then the service numbers direct from the factory have "flip flopped" for the good, system works very well now and the people who have bought the system in the last year (since all updates) have been happy with it based on what I'm seeing..fyi we sell a lot of them...I hope everything continues smoothly moving forward
Thanks for the reply. If I were to buy a new one today, but a floor model from 2013, is there anyway I'd know if it had the latest updates to account for all the issues previously found? Is there a build date I need to go by or just the fact that its a 2013 floor model is sufficient to know its got the right updates?
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I am looking into a HotSpring with ACE. Seeing a lot of issues with the diamond electrode going bad prematurely and causing all sorts of problems for many customers on one of the other forums. Many of them there said the HotSpring techs were told to do some sort of workaround for better flow to help the issues but many have said that didn't help any. Most there are saying to stay clear of it and don't waste the money on it. Many of them say HotSpring has been good about warranting the part but at some point the warranty will run out and you will be stuck in the same boat having to order new electrodes at every fill up.
Has anything changed lately to help matters improve?
the "update" you referenced was a loooong time ago, since then the service numbers direct from the factory have "flip flopped" for the good, system works very well now and the people who have bought the system in the last year (since all updates) have been happy with it based on what I'm seeing..fyi we sell a lot of them...I hope everything continues smoothly moving forward
Thanks for the reply. If I were to buy a new one today, but a floor model from 2013, is there anyway I'd know if it had the latest updates to account for all the issues previously found? Is there a build date I need to go by or just the fact that its a 2013 floor model is sufficient to know its got the right updates?
anything from 2013 will be good to go with newest equipment, if you decide to go that route and have any other questions just let me know...approx 65% of ACE capable tubs we sell are being sold with the system so I have quite a bit of experience with it
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I am looking into a HotSpring with ACE. Seeing a lot of issues with the diamond electrode going bad prematurely and causing all sorts of problems for many customers on one of the other forums. Many of them there said the HotSpring techs were told to do some sort of workaround for better flow to help the issues but many have said that didn't help any. Most there are saying to stay clear of it and don't waste the money on it. Many of them say HotSpring has been good about warranting the part but at some point the warranty will run out and you will be stuck in the same boat having to order new electrodes at every fill up.
Has anything changed lately to help matters improve?
That si silly. Even when things were at their worst, folks were not changing cells with every fill up.
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It is XXXXXXXXXXXX that talked about cells going bad, but it didn't say they would have to be replaced on every fill, just that they were going bad at varying frequency for different people. It's obvious that there were more frequent problems at first, that some of them got resolved with some changes, that some problems may be due to a lack of proper owner maintenance (keeping CH levels low using Vanishing Act, for example), and that some other problems may remain. Like any product, problems will be a statistical thing and it does appear that the rate is dropping (i.e. the product is improving). Read the thread for the full scoop.
Edit note: Sorry Chem Geek, as much as I appreciate your contributions here, the owners don't want direct links to competing forums.
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Edit note: Sorry Chem Geek, as much as I appreciate your contributions here, the owners don't want direct links to competing forums.
No problem. I'll just have to remember to cut and paste or summarize relevant portions as needed.
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Hi, I'm new to the forum and in the very early stages of purchasing a hot tub. I tried one at a resort and it was nice but the chlorine was a turn off. I know there are bromine systems out there as well as ozinators. HotSprings was the only system I saw that came with either the ozinator system or, the salt water generator. Does anybody have first hand experience with the HotSprings salt system? I'm sure there are after market products but I didn't see any other big name hot tubs that come with a salt system. Thanks
I am sure I'll get crucified here but I have been running a chemical free product called CareFree Spa.Too early to do a comprehensive review,just running it for about 2.5 weeks now but so far it has been as advertised and the support has been excellent.They even called me when I ordered online to have a chat and make sure that I was ordering what I needed.
It is a process,you have to run a Citrus based purge and refill the tub then bleach the water and add the product but right now we are odor and foam free with super clear water.No irritation or itching.I am very pleased so far.
My stepfather had a spa for about 10 years and he ran a similar product with no issues.He is one of those guys that can't tell you the name of the product but good to hear someone using the same concept long term.
People will bark about the EPA not approving such products and excuse my cynical attitude but I am pretty sure the EPA does NOT have my best interests at heart!There are several of these chemical free based companies that have been around for quite some time with no negative reviews so anyway just a suggestion.Food for thought.
Happy tubbing.
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As noted in this link (http://www.carefreespa.com/technical.html) CareFree Spa Naturel is enzymes. These will accelerate the breakdown of bather waste, essentially having the oxygen in water oxidize them. Note what they say about algae:
Algae - Naturel Spa is not an algaecide. Spas with covers and using Naturel Spa according to instructions, without the regular addition of toxic chemicals, have shown no algae growth in water with temperatures above 80º F and where regular circulation and filtration are present. Spas without covers will normally have algae growth on the walls and in the water. Algaecides are required in these cases, and are compatible with our formula.
So with exposure to sunlight, algae will grow in the water in spite of their product being in the water. Algae are harder to kill than most bacteria and they can't claim to kill bacteria since they are not EPA registered because they don't kill bacteria quickly enough to pass EPA DIS/TSS-12 (http://www.epa.gov/oppad001/dis_tss_docs/dis-12.htm), but that does not mean that they do not inhibit bacterial growth. Interestingly, with regard to bacteria they say the following:
Bacteria - Spa water treated according to our recommendations stays safe, clean and healthy. Our customers spas are periodically chosen at random and tested for E. Coli, Streptococcus, Staphylococcus Aureus, Pseudomonas Aeruginosa, Legionella Pneumophilia, yeast, fungi, molds, and mildews. Coliform tests are routinely performed on heavily-used spa water. Water temperature is maintained at approximately 100 F° and the spa is covered during non-use periods. The Coliform test searches for colon bacillus and other disease generating bacteria stemming from fecal and urine contamination.
where they say they tested for coliform bacteria, but they didn't give the actual results which seems very strange (they refer to "tests" at the bottom of their page with no coliforms, but don't indicate if under any bather load nor with nitrates or phosphates). As they note on their website,
Naturel Spa can not claim to "reduce, inhibit, mitigate, destroy or abate any pests", (plants, animals or bacteria) "either by itself or in combination with any other substance" (the EPA definition of a pesticide). The EPA does not allow any product not registered as a pesticide to make this claim, under penalty of civil prosecution.
As for reviews of non-chemical products, by which I presume you mean non-halogen products since all these products contain chemicals, on another forum I put together a table of hot tub incidents of hot tub rash, hot tub lung, and Legionnaire's Disease and communicated directly with many of the people who had these problems. Though the most common cause was using too little or no disinfectant, some were using "alternative" systems including EcoOne, Aquafinesse, and copper ions. CareFree Spa was not in that list, and none of the products I mentioned have enzymes (EcoOne has coconut clarifiers, Aquafinesse has surfactants that dislodge biofilms, copper kills some bacteria slowly, but not fecal bacteria).
I suspect that the enzymes in CareFree Spa might inhibit bacterial growth, but probably don't kill bacteria very quickly which is why they cannot get EPA approval as a disinfectant for spas (or pools).
If you wanted a non-halogen system that is EPA approved so is known to kill bacteria quickly, then there is Nature2 which is silver ions with non-chlorine shock (MPS).