Hot Tub Forum
Original => Hot Tub Forum => Topic started by: neacr1 on May 10, 2010, 01:06:08 pm
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Hi all, I have been doing some research and trying to figure out what is important in the purchase of a tub. I understand dealer confidence and availability therefore I have been looking at Hot Springs (vanguard 8250.00) Limelight (pulse 7700.00) and Marquis (Reward 7800.00). Seems as though no other brands have dealers close enough to provide service. I was really hoping to spend less for this size tub but doesn't look like that's an option. My concern now is cost to operate and longevity. I have looked at this forum and get the drift that longevity is probably going to be the same among the better brands and that the better warranted brand will cost more but I'm unsure of the Limelight and Marquis as I can't find much non-dealer feedback on them. I would appreciate some advice or input on these two brands if anyone is willing. There is a Caldera dealer down the street that I stopped into and they had a good looking/sized tub in the showroom for over 10k don't remember the model but no-one was available with knowledge about it to talk to. I have heard that Caldera is a box store brand and not as reliable as the other top brands. Any help would be greatly appreciated!! Thanks in advance. :-\
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Hi all, I have been doing some research and trying to figure out what is important in the purchase of a tub. I understand dealer confidence and availability therefore I have been looking at Hot Springs (vanguard 8250.00) Limelight (pulse 7700.00) and Marquis (Reward 7800.00). Seems as though no other brands have dealers close enough to provide service. I was really hoping to spend less for this size tub but doesn't look like that's an option. My concern now is cost to operate and longevity. I have looked at this forum and get the drift that longevity is probably going to be the same among the better brands and that the better warranted brand will cost more but I'm unsure of the Limelight and Marquis as I can't find much non-dealer feedback on them. I would appreciate some advice or input on these two brands if anyone is willing. There is a Caldera dealer down the street that I stopped into and they had a good looking/sized tub in the showroom for over 10k don't remember the model but no-one was available with knowledge about it to talk to. I have heard that Caldera is a box store brand and not as reliable as the other top brands. Any help would be greatly appreciated!! Thanks in advance. :-\
My short list of spas I tend to recommend includes Caldera, D1, Hot Spring, Jacuzzi, Marquis and Sundance. Caldera isn't a big box brand, not sure where you got that from. Each of those brands has spas from entry level up to the premium end.
I'd concentrate on dealer confidence (how long in business, how long with this brand, how long have they serviced spas and this brand, will he be there for you after the sale, what approach they take in trying to make the sale, etc.), what kind of package deal you can get, manufacturer warranty and confidence they'll back it, wet test results, aesthetics, etc.
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My short list of spas I tend to recommend includes Caldera, D1, Hot Spring, Jacuzzi, Marquis and Sundance. Caldera isn't a big box brand, not sure where you got that from.
I thought, and could be wrong that in some cases Costco or Sam's club may contract floor space with local dealers to drop a tub on the display floor and that around the country different local dealers have accepted that offer. I think I read that somewhere.
To the OP, as Spatech said, Caldera is recognized as a good brand and we have several happy owners here. My sister is taking delivery in a few days of her Vanguard from HS, I look forward to trying it out in July.
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I just found a Sundance dealer about 90 miles away that serves my area with 24 hour service, been in service 35 years and has sold only Sundance for around 20 years. In speaking with them and telling them about the tubs I was looking at they directed me toward the Hamilton in the 780 series tubs. I have only seen pictures but it doesn't seem to compare with the Vanguard or the Limelight Pulse. I think I've decided against the Marquis as it seems to cost close to the other for a smaller tub with less features. Any thoughts??
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I just found a Sundance dealer about 90 miles away that serves my area with 24 hour service, Any thoughts??
That can work out if the dealer provides excellent customer service that far away but I'd get that 24 hr comment on paper and I'd especially want to know what the travel change would be if ther is one (yes, they can charge for travel while under warranty, especially when that far away).
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Went to the Caldera dealer tonight and they offered the Niagra or Geneva for 9500.00. Both were '09 models. Plumbing and heating is their first business but the owners mom lives next door ( maybe some leverage lol). Delivered, setup with 220 box, free service calls for warranty work. More money than I want to spend but, according to the dealer this is a great deal. Any thoughts, does it sound like a deal? Is it comparable to the vanguard or limelight?
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That is a good deal for the Geneva and Niagara. The main difference is the lounger vs no lounger. Of course, the Niagara is a non-lounger, but a bigger spa than the Vanguard. I love the Niagara. Of course, I really like the Moto Massage on the Vanguard, so for me that would be a tough choice.
Both brands are made by Watkins Manufacturing. Watkins is among the leaders in the industry. They've been around since the late 70's, making them one of the longest term manufacturers of portable spas.
I don't believe there were really too many changes from '09 to '10 on the Geneva or Niagara. I think they are pretty much the same. So, $9500 gets you up higher than were you wanted to be, but that is a good deal.
Now, the Vanguard is a great spa. The Limelights are good, well-built spas as well. They also come from Watkins. They just have a different style and a shorter warranty.
The thing to do at this point is wet test. Try the Niagara. See if the Caldera dealer has a Tahitian. That would be more comparable to the Vanguard - but it is a lounger. Then, try out the Vanguard and Limelight. See which one you fit in best and which has the best jets for you.
I'd be wary of a 90 mile distance from my dealer. 90 miles is a long way for anyone to just head on over to check out a spa under warranty. I'm not saying they won't, I'd just be certain they really will. Get it in writing.
Good Luck.
Oh, by the way, Marquis makes a good spa, too. Since you said you'd ruled them out, I decided not to go there.
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Delivered, setup with 220 box, free service calls for warranty work. More money than I want to spend but, according to the dealer this is a great deal. Any thoughts, does it sound like a deal?
If that was what I wanted I'd make one more move to better the deal i.e. "I'll sign if you throw in a cover lifter" which you'll want on a spa that big.
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This is just my opinion, but it seems to me that the Caldera's are still priced kind of high, especially for 09 models. For me, especially seeing the difference in price, I would take another look at the Vanguard and the Marquis as they are of the same quality, and you can get them at a much better price. But, if you like the Caldera and the price then go for it. But it just seems to me that you would be overpaying a bit, especially when you can get brands of equal quality at a much better price.
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This is just my opinion, but it seems to me that the Caldera's are still priced kind of high, especially for 09 models. For me, especially seeing the difference in price, I would take another look at the Vanguard and the Marquis as they are of the same quality, and you can get them at a much better price. But, if you like the Caldera and the price then go for it. But it just seems to me that you would be overpaying a bit, especially when you can get brands of equal quality at a much better price.
But you're comparing smaller spas to larger spas there. The Geneva and Niagara are two of the largest spas Caldera makes and they are in their Utopia series. They will cost more than the Vanguard. There is no difference between the '09 and '10, so the price wouldn't really even change that much. He might be able to negotiate a better deal, but $9500 for a Geneva or Niagara is still a good deal.
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These are all very very comparable in size, and there are a few differences for sure. I show that the Caldera is 2" wider and 2" taller then the Vanguard, so I guess there Caldera's are a little bigger, but hardly a huge difference. But, the Marquis is 90" wide so it is overall a bigger tub then all three, but it is three inches shallower than the Caldera's and one inch shallower then the Marquis, so I guess it is all in how you look at it. I still say for 1500 dollars plus in savings, it would be worth it to look again at the others. Again, this is just my opinion. You cant go wrong either way here imo, just a good way to save some serious $$$.
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To me I think the Vanguard is leaps and bounds above the limelight series and Caldera for that matter. In regards to jets,filtration and construction. Not to mention warranty compared to the limelight.
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Beer man, which marquis were you speaking of? I had looked at the reward for 7700.00 and thought that the other brands offered more for the money.
I can get a vanguard from a dealer outside my service area with a cover lifter for 8250.00. A closer dealer has offered an '09 for 9000.00 including a lifter with gas pistons, silver cartridge, silk balance, ceramic filter, 220 panel and steps. They also offered the '09 envoy for 9000.00 with the same accessories and the grandee at 10900.00. This was over the phone and I would guess I could do a little better in person.
The Hot Springs and Caldera have the dedicated circ pump and HS has the non-bypass filtration. Marquis has neither. How important is that? I really loved the Marquis dealer, she spent lots of time with us and agreed to let us wet test. I was surprised that a lot of dealers don't let you test or they let you test their top of the line so you can get the feel of their jets but not the model you are interested in. Sorry to keep throwing more and more out there I just want to make a wise decision that I will be comfortable with. I really appreciate all the input. You guys are great with this stuff!! Thank You all!
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Ok, insert foot in mouth. ::) I was clearly smoking crack. I for some reason thought I read that you were looking at the Marquis Euphoria and not the Reward. So, Vanguard was right when he said that the Calderas ARE bigger then the others that you are looking at. Sorry Vanguard, my bad. Must of crossed up some different threads together. Should have done a better job of reading the first post. My bad!
But, to answer the rest of your questions, I really wouldn't factor in the no bypass filtration, nor the circ pump vs no circ pump. All the tubs that you are looking at will filter equally as good, and are all from major manufactures that make good tubs. At this point, I would look closely at your dealers. Check their local BBB ratings, and ask for referrals. I would also try to wet test the different ones that you are interested in as this can help you make the decision many times. Good luck.
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The Hot Springs and Caldera have the dedicated circ pump and HS has the non-bypass filtration. Marquis has neither. How important is that?
Personally I really like the circ pump option. It is quieter since the main pump won't need to come on for heating or filtering, it allows for 24 hour ozone output which I really like (as opposed to 4-6 hrs per day) and its a little more energy efficient than the method of using the 2 speed pump for heating/filtering. I don't mean to say that should be the deciding factor but its a plus IMO.
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Sounds crazy because I started out wanting to spend a lot less but I think we have decided to go with the Grandee provided the wet test is comfortable for us. I'm hoping to get one between 10k and 10500.00. I'm not sure about the chemicals though. It has ozone and I'm going to use the silver but the dealer is giving me a starter kit including Silk Balance. They gave me the name of a local reference who let me come look at his Vanguard and he raved about the tub but didn't have much experience with the companies service dept as he has never had to call them. He told me he uses a jug of Silk Balance every three months and it costs 200.00 per jug and he uses shock also. I would like to not use chlorine or Bromine if possible as I would like to avoid the harsher chemicals but have never maintained water before. I could really use an education here as $600.00 a year just for the Silk Balance seems excessive. I think the salt system is available on this model but not sure if that does the trick either. Also, people have mentioned scale and lime chemicals as well as a cleaner used to clean the tubing and pumps before draining. Oh yeah, I gotta control PH too. Seems like caring for the water is more confusing than finding the right tub. I have a friend with a big in-ground pool and what he does doesn't seem that complicated. I'm hoping that there is a simple solution that works with all tubs and doesn't cost an arm and a leg. Thanks again for all the help and great advice!!!!
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Personally, I prefer just using the Dichlor, ozone and silver method. You get very little chlorine smell and the water feels perfectly fine. I've never used Silk Balance, so I can't really speak to it, but at $800/yr, ugh. I think I'll stick with my simple method. It has yet to let me down and nobody ever feels like they've been in a chemical bath.
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Thanks Vanguard,
Can you estimate the cost of that and do you know the difference between the chlorine/bromine and Baquaspa? This company throws in a bottle of Silk balance with the deal so my thought is they can keep it and sweeten the deal by $200 more.
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Thanks Vanguard,
Can you estimate the cost of that and do you know the difference between the chlorine/bromine and Baquaspa? This company throws in a bottle of Silk balance with the deal so my thought is they can keep it and sweeten the deal by $200 more.
Chlorine will probably cost you about $100 or so a year (total guess, I never really added it up). The nice thing about chlorine the way I use it is I always add it AFTER I use the spa; it then sanitizes but dissipates quickly so the next time I go in it has a low chlorine level and I therefore never sit in heavy chlorine, more like the level you'd find in bath water.
I've heard some people say good things about Silk Balance but I didn't realize it was a $600 a year thing, ouch. At that price you could justify getting a chlorine generator that is out now available on Hot Spring but either way I'd personally go with chlorine due to effectiveness and cost. One thing to add, if they are including a bottle of Silk Balance and you decide not to use it I doubt they'll reduce the price by $200, more like they'll reduce it by what that bottle costs them but what the heck, give it a shot and ask for $200 off if you so chose.
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Ditto what SpaTech said. The chlorine cost is around $100/year. I also add the chlorine after I use the spa.
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Thanks guys for the info on the chemicals. I asked the dealer about the salt system and she quoted $1000.00. She also quoted an '09 new Grandee with full warranty for $9800.00 with piston type lifter, silver cartridge, ceramic filters, 220 box, steps and starter chemicals(not Silk Balance) and written guarantee that they will service my tub in a timely fashion from their store which is about 65-70 miles from me.
Wondering if Baquaspa is comparable to chlorine as I'm told it is less harsh? Also, is the salt system worth 1000.00 and if I get it do I still have to add chemicals? Thanks again to all!!
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With Baqua your back to the more money for chem situation, not to mention possibly a few more headaches. Stick with the cartridge,chlorine and shock don't look back.
We looked at carrying the silk balance and in the end felt most people long term wouldn't buy it.
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Looks like we'll be able to wet test the Grandee this afternoon. Any comments on the deal?? $9800 for the tub with full warranty, 220 panel, ceramic filters, silver cartridge, starter chem pack, step, piston type cover lifter, and of course delivery and setup. Sounds like a good deal to me but you guys know better than I do and your input is valued. Also, another dealer with a Grandee told me that the piston type cover lifter was not as good as the one without pistons. He said dealers that try to sell them to you won't tell you that you have to replace the pistons. Of course, he didn't have one to throw in with his deal. Any thoughts on lifters and do you think the salt system is worth $1000??
Thanks again to everyone for the help!! Hopefully we will make our decision this afternoon. demolition of the sunroom has begun and construction of the deck will follow. Keep your fingers crossed.
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That is a real nice price for that spa with those options! :)
I haven't seen the Ace system in action so I don't have direct experience with it but all my pool customers who use salt systems say that they are a lot easier to maintain and more forgiving when they are busy and don't add chems on schedule.
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Great tub but I float in all the corner seats. Salesperson suggested weighted belts and booster seats. Pretty frustrated.
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Great tub but I float in all the corner seats. Salesperson suggested weighted belts and booster seats. Pretty frustrated.
Usaully floating is an issue with lounges, not regular seats. Try another and see if it happens again. Ive seen piston assisted cover lifters and used them for years. The pistons don't fail too often IMO and are easily changed out if they do.
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Going to wet test a Caldera Niagara Wed. Seems like a nice tub, hopefully I don't float out of the seats. Seems like the Grandee seats lay back pretty far and that may be the reason for floating. Oh Well. The Niagara is $9500.00 out the door including tax, steps, lifter, and starter chem pack. It has the spa frog system, anyone familiar with this, would it be possible to just use the basic cheap chemicals and not the frog?? Do I need to or should stick with it.
Also, the Cantabria may be available for between $10,000 and $11,000 without optional equipment, but would include cover, lifter, and chemicals. Any thoughts?? Seems like a great tub.
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Going to wet test a Caldera Niagara Wed. Seems like a nice tub, hopefully I don't float out of the seats. Seems like the Grandee seats lay back pretty far and that may be the reason for floating. Oh Well. The Niagara is $9500.00 out the door including tax, steps, lifter, and starter chem pack. It has the spa frog system, anyone familiar with this, would it be possible to just use the basic cheap chemicals and not the frog?? Do I need to or should stick with it.
Also, the Cantabria may be available for between $10,000 and $11,000 without optional equipment, but would include cover, lifter, and chemicals. Any thoughts?? Seems like a great tub.
1) You are not required in any way to try the Frog system but if its there I'd give it a try and if its not for you just switch or just use whatever you want to start with.
2) The cantabria is much bigger so you'll have to decide if you're looking for something that big but the price seems good.
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Can anyone tell me the differences between Bromine and chlorine and are the costs the same?? Also, what are the test strips for? I've never cared for water before and I'm sure I'll get somewhat of an education from the dealer I end up using but I would like to know enough that I don't fall for some sales hype. Seems like the chlorine is the cheapest but it also seems like there are other thing to be concerned with like PH and such. Are there other chemicals needed besides the chlorine? Thanks in advance.
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I'm not a water expert but I do know this. You need to balance your water to get the best results from whatever sanitizer you decide to use. If your spa has an ozonator you might choose to use a chlorine free shock each day you use the spa and then use actual chlorine each week or every other week depending on how often you are using the spa.
If your spa does not have an ozonator then you might want to use Bromine because it does not burn off as fast as chlorine in warm water.
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Well, we finally settled on the Niagara by Caldera. $9500.00 including tax, steps, cover lifter, 220 sub panel, delivery,set up, filling, balance the water, move my propane boiler vent so I can build the deck, silver cartridge, and starter chems. The dealer is three minutes from my house and has a good reputation around town. Best of all we love the tub and don't float in it. Thanks to you all for the expertise and advice. I learned a lot and it made my purchase more enjoyable. I feel like I got a better deal because of what I learned here. I'm hoping for an enjoyable experience with our new tub and will likely check back for advice on caring for the water. Thanks again everyone!!
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Congrats!! ;D
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Hi all,
Vanguard. you suggested using dichlor,silver and ozone to sanitize the water. I am still at a loss about PH balance and alkalinity. Do these chemicals take care of that or are there more needed for balancing the water?? Thanks again for all the help!!
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No, you'll still need to use a pH up and a pH down product. Those both work pH and Alkalinity. pH up is basically a bicarbonate and pH down is an acid. These are both inexpensive and easy to use.