Hot Tub Forum
Original => Hot Tub Forum => Topic started by: fuzzybeekeeper on April 05, 2010, 04:18:46 pm
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We have an Emerald Spa that is 4 years old. The main 2-speed motor went out 2 months after the warrenty went out (of course) and we paid $700 ($450 motor + $250 travel/labor(we live an hour from our dealer and pay time both ways!)) to have it repaired.
The motor lasted a month and broke. The dealer replaced it (no labor or travel this time). It lasted a month and broke again. I took the motor in and told them the cast aluminum housing around the shaft was broken. They blamed it on UPS dropping the boxes and replaced the motor again but refused to install it. They finally "sold" it to me on paper and I took it and installed it.
It lasted 6 hours before it quit. I sent it to the manufacturer who said the shaft was bent and sent me another motor. This one lasted 24 hours (we actually got to enjoy our tub one night out of the last 4 months!) before I HEARD it pop. The cast aluminum housing around the shaft is broken again.
I am at my wits end. There is nothing in the pipe that would get in the impellers. There is no damage to the impellers. My smart (designs computers for AMD) son-in-law suggests that the motor is running backward and the impeller unscrews from the shaft, forcing the shaft to push out the back of the motor, breaking the housing. (Maybe he is worth something after all!!)
What would make the motor run backwards? I have been VERY diligent in wiring everything EXACTLY as the instructions say.
That is 4 motors in 6 months with 2 months of Christmas/Spring Break down time when I didn't pursue the problem.
Any ideas?
Fuzzybeekeeper
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Welcome to the forum, though I wish it were under better circumstances. We do have several tech types with a lot of experience here, so I'm betting you will get a couple of good answers that I will be curious to read.
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You could go with another pump aqua flo, hayward as long as it matches up to what you have now fitting wise and power wise. Not sure I buy the pump running backwards thing that would be strange, and since you used it once, it's most likely not running backwards. Downfall is you would end up having to pay for the different pump.
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I have tried two different brands. Both brands have reacted the same way. Two pumps from each brand. A total of 4 pumps with at least 3 that I have seen cracked or broken housings. I will post photos a little later today if I get a chance.
Anyway, I will probably have to pay for a new pump. I just can't afford to buy too many more $450 pumps without figuring out WHY they are breaking.
Fuzzybeekeeper
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That is even stranger, have you actually looked at the impeller inside the housing for any breakage or strange marks on it? What H,power are these?
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They are 4.5 HP motors. I have taken the pump assembly apart and there are NO marks or damage to the impeller or housing.
The reason my son-in-law suggested that the motor is running backwards is that I went to get a phillips screw driver to take the pump off of the motor. When I got back, he said he didn't need it. He just spun the pump a couple of turns backward and it came right off of the shaft. It is held in place by the direction the shaft spins as it runs. If it WERE turning backwards, it would back off of the impeller and be forced out the back of the motor.
If it is breaking because the motor IS turning backwards, it doesn't make sense that a cast aluminum frame is breaking rather than small metal screws stripping out of a plastic housing.
Again, photos to follow.
Fuzzybeekeeper
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That does not make any sense, standard 120/240 volt motors are not phase specific and should not run backwards.
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That does not make any sense, standard 120/240 volt motors are not phase specific and should not run backwards.
Agree, the problem is not the motor running backward. The way the shaft is threaded was probably confusing to the SIL.
I scratch my head wondering what is causing this continual issue and without inspecting it first hand ...
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That does not make any sense, standard 120/240 volt motors are not phase specific and should not run backwards.
Agree, the problem is not the motor running backward. The way the shaft is threaded was probably confusing to the SIL.
I scratch my head wondering what is causing this continual issue and without inspecting it first hand ...
Looking forward to the photos, this is one of the more unusual ones I've heard of in my years here.
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That does not make any sense, standard 120/240 volt motors are not phase specific and should not run backwards.
It sounds as though the OP is getting replacement motors, and re-using the pump. The motor is likely used in many applications, it could come from the factory, wired for the wrong direction. Switching a motor to run backwards, usually just requires switching one, or two wires.
Given the number of failures, the underlying problem is not likely the motors, themself. I wonder if the pump/impeller was damaged... either from the original failure, or the replacement installations. Regardless, the servicing dealer should deal with in person, not just keep sending out motors. If they have any pride, they would want to get this right. Now on the other hand, if the son-in-law botched the repair, because designing computers does not necessarily make you a great spa tech... you might have gotten what you paid for! :o
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Ok, I finally have photos. I will post three, one in each message.
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This shows the same side but from a different view. Notice the crack to the lower left.
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This one shows a crack on the other side of the same end. It doesn't look like a "twisting" break. It looks like a "straight back push". Don't you like my technical terms?
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Sorry. One more....showing no damage to the impeller.
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I also took the motor to our local electrical motor repair shop. His first words to me were, "This motor has been dropped." I assured him that it was a new motor from the factory shipped directly to me. I had inspected both the outer and inner box for damage as I opened it. I saw no damage. I was VERY careful as I installed the motor and did NOT drop it. The motor ran 24 hours before sustaining the damage in the previous photos.
I also had the original motor that "went out" last fall after running for two years. It did NOT crack. The spa technician who replaced it for $450 said that the capacitor was out. The electrical repair man replaced the capacitor with the one from the "cracked" motor and brushes from a used motor in a pile...and the motor runs fine. He charged me $15.
The motor is now installed on my hot tub and running fine. I know it has only been 3 hours and the results are yet to be seen, but I know I didn't have to pay $450 for a new motor.
He also said that he should be able to get a new back to replace the broken one for around $35. and the cost to repair it.
The only thing we didn't figure out is how the "cracks" occur. We'll just have to wait and see if this one breaks.
In the mean time.....any ideas out there after looking at the photos?
Thanks!
Fuzzybeekeeper
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When I used to service pools, I always carried a few capacitors with me. If a motor was out, I'd always check that first. Numerous times I'd go out on a second opinion and change out the capacitor when the previous tech quoted a whole new motor. I didn't make as much on the call as I could have if I'd just underbid the other contractor, but I created a new, loyal customer by treating them honestly.
The cracked motors are strange. Have you seen a brand name on the motor?
I would think your original dealer should be able to take back the cracked motors and have them replaced under warranty and give you your money back. That would be the right thing to do.
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I hate to admit it but it does look like the motor was dropped on its shaft.
It looks like something may have caused a sudden "back thrust" on the pump impeller. When it was assembled was there any movement laterally along the pump shaft? Could the impeller have not been threaded on properly or a spacer missing between the pump hosing and the motor?
Very strange
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>In Canada,
All four pumps came to me assembled...from two different companies. Both are O.A.Smith electric motors with "wet sides" (pumps) by different companies. If it was a batch of O.A.Smith motors that had been dropped, it would be very ironic that I received at least three motors from two different companies and noone else seems to have reported this problem.
>Vanguard,
I agree. The service tech from the local company even mentioned that the capacitor was the only thing wrong with the motor but sold me a $450 new replacement instead. I have to run right now but will speak to your other comment later.
Fuzzybeekeeper
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Was your first replacement a replacement of the whole pump or just the motor? Have you just replaced the motor each time? Have you ever replaced the impeller even though it looks fine?
How do you install your impeller?
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This is very odd, in my 20+ years I have never seen this unless they were dropped. I have come across motors that spun back-wards but they only hurt the wet end. I would think any issues in the wet end that created this amount of force would break the wet end before it would the motor housing.
I know you are confident they were not dropped so I do not have any answer.
Being they are all AO Smiths I think the issue is with them.
Maybe you have hard water? ;D
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Each time the motor and impeller came as a complete assembly. They were never seperated. We received a new electric motor and pump (assembled) each time. I know the local dealer opened the impeller one time because they were thinking something had gotten inside and caused it to freeze up. They found nothing.
Every time I have taken the impeller apart, I have found NO damage.
The impeller has come installed in the pump. I don't even open it up. At least not until now when I figured this was my pump anyway.
Fuzzybeekeeper
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VTXMAN,
Yes, I do have hard water, but, geez....how HARD can water be?
Besides, if it was with A. O. Smith electric motors, as I have said, from two different suppliers, you would think this problem would have popped up somewhere else, too.
Fuzzybeekeeper
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So I was at an open house for a pool products distributor today. The AO Smith rep was there so I fired up my laptop and showed him the photos.
He was absolutely stumped. Said he's not seen that kind of crack before. One thing he could think of related to a different type of impeller than you have, so that didn't fit. The other thing he thought of doesn't work since you had a complete pump, not just a motor. He wondered if someone had hammered the impeller on. I told him I really didn't think so.
We got busy, so I didn't get to follow up with him.
Here's my thought. You should have a warranty from the PUMP manufacturer. You should be able to get the entire pump replaced under warranty since you bought them brand new. When I refer to a pump, I mean the entire unit - Motor and Wet End.
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The hard water comment was funny. Guys, I'll admit to knowing nothing about repairing anything except computers, but is it possible there is an air leak in the cabinet and after the motor gets really hot and shuts off its getting blasted with cold outside air? Ok, I'll shut up now.
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Wow! Fuzzy, I'm sorry but I've got nothing. I have never seen anything like this at all.
Vanguard is right though, if you bought a assembled pump/motor it should be under some type of warranty by whoever marketed the assembled product
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I totally agree that the "assembler" of the pump/motor combination should make it good. My problem is that this is the fourth one. Since the manufacturer warrenties the "pump" only and not the labor to install it, I would have had to pay $180 each time it went out ($60/hour with 1 hour getting here, 1 hour here and 1 hour getting back=3X$60=$180). That would make my bill for labor for replacing warrentied pumps $540.00 so far (3 X $180.).
The catch is that the only way the motor is under warrenty is if THEIR service man installs it. If I install it, the warrenty is void because I "am not qualified and might install it wrong, thus causing the motor to break." Gotcha!!!
My contention is that I am the customer and the local dealer should be paying to replace the motor. HIS contention is that he has done MORE than he should have and that I should have to pay the labor. So much for customer service. I am no longer his customer. My problem is that it is now 100 miles and across Houston to the nearest dealer.
As a last "favor" to me, they "sold" me a motor "on paper" (didn't actually cost me anything, or them either, for that matter, because it was just the replacement motor I would have received anyway, but this way I have to go to the manufacturer instead of them). Since THAT one went out (#3), I did return it to the manufacturer. He did replace it with no charge except for the $40 I had to pay to ship it to him. Now, after running 24 hours, #4 breaks in the same way, he's going to say that it is my hot tub, not the motor. And I wouldn't blame him for thinking that. So I didn't even try to return it.
And the kicker in all this: My 60-something-year-old electrical repair man in a dingy shop in a town of 14,000 fixed my original motor with used parts for $15.
And three days later (and two wonderful hot tub sessions later(after a 4 month delay)) the hot tub is still going.
The motor does have a little "jingle" to it like a small bell when it kicks into the second speed, but that doesn't seem to bother it at all. I'm going to make a recording of the sound and see if my "Superman" repairman who does the impossible can tell what is wrong.
Fuzzybeekeeper
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From the pictures, I would bet my lunch for the next two weeks on that motor being dropped on it's shaft, or put together wrong at the factory. That could have happened before the wet-end was installed, and the broken part could have stayed pretty much in place for a very long time before just the right combination of start/stop torque or speed-change torque, or simple vibration, finally moved it to the point the motor stopped.
I would have the repair guy fix it for you with a new or used end bell, and sell it back to the guy who charged you $450 for the replacement. He obviously thinks these things are worth a lot!
And BTW - do you have any suggestions for picks on the next Super Lotto? I want to pick the exact opposite of whatever you choose...
;)
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Five months after repairing a "broken" motor for $15, it is STILL running strong.
I still don't understand how FOUR motors could have broken shafts from either 1) something I did or 2) something that is wrong with my "tub" and when I put in a fixed "discarded" motor in, it runs like a top for the past five months without missing a beat.
The four motors were all the same model but different than the original model. I think that has something to do with it.
Try to convince the dealer of that!!!!!
Thanks to all who contributed.
Fuzzybeekeeper
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Ok....It has been two+ years and the original REPAIRED motor is still going strong. Something was definately wrong with the 4 "NEW" motors I was given. And the store that sold and installed the hot tub has not lifted a finger or inquired about how things are going since.
The only reason I am posting this is because I need a new cover so I wanted to go back and see what company Vangard recommended in a private message and I thought I would bring you up to date on an unusual problem that never was solved!
Fuzzybeekeeper
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Thanks for the update. I remember puzzling over this one!
Did you ever have your motor shop fix the broken motors, or do anything else productive with them?
8)