Hot Tub Forum
Original => Hot Tub Forum => Topic started by: jb4265 on February 12, 2010, 01:01:11 pm
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As some of you know, I have been looking for tubs and am waiting for the dealer to get his 2010 shipment in. All he has in stock is an 09 Vanguard which I am not interested in. He has told me about the ACE water system for $950.00. He states that you need no addtional chemicals. Does anyone have an insight to this and is it worth the money???
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Maybe Dan or Chris can give us an idea of what this system does. Is it similar to the system that HS introduced a little while back?
You may want to consider that there have been MANY
"foolproof" systems for water maintence. Most that I am familiar, with did not really pan out.
Lets see what the HS guys say and you can compare the new system to what others are doing.
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As some of you know, I have been looking for tubs and am waiting for the dealer to get his 2010 shipment in. All he has in stock is an 09 Vanguard which I am not interested in. He has told me about the ACE water system for $950.00. He states that you need no addtional chemicals. Does anyone have an insight to this and is it worth the money???
The water care system creates the sanitizer (produces chlorine, Cl, from salt, NaCl) but you would still need to check ph/alk and adjust as needed and you may need to shock periodically.
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So Spatech would you say it is worth the cost?
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950 bucks would buy a lot of nat 2 and chlorine/shock/chems over say 5 plus years. The way the HS boys spout about the no by-pass filtration system and how great it keeps the water I am not sure why a system like that would be needed? Just another way for the dealer to make a buck. Not knocking it and if Jacuzzi had it I would try to sell it as well, someone will always be willing to buy.
But then I am the guy that wouldn't pay extra for the under coat on my new car.
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950 bucks would buy a lot of nat 2 and chlorine/shock/chems over say 5 plus years. The way the HS boys spout about the no by-pass filtration system and how great it keeps the water I am not sure why a system like that would be needed? Just another way for the dealer to make a buck. Not knocking it and if Jacuzzi had it I would try to sell it as well, someone will always be willing to buy.
But then I am the guy that wouldn't pay extra for the under coat on my new car.
Obviously filtration and sanitizing are two different things.
Personally I'll stick to N2 and chlorine simply because I don't have an extra grand burning a hole in my pocket (and I'm a coupon-clipping cheapskate) but we all know there are a lot of people out there that will like the idea of an auto-sanitizer (after all, we are a plug-n-play society).
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Here is some information on it for those interested:
(http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b206/EastTexasSpa/ACEWaterCareSystemSmall.jpg)
Term
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Here is some information on it for those interested:
(http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b206/EastTexasSpa/ACEWaterCareSystemSmall.jpg)
Term
thats a sweet red X !!!!!!!!!!
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thats a sweet red X !!!!!!!!!!
Really? I've checked it on 3 of my computers here at the store and it shows up on all of them.
Hmmmmm....anyone else seeing a red X? ???
Term
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I have only the red X too, Term...che cos' e?
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Dang, I don't think I've ever done that before....I'll get it figured out...hopefully.
Sorry
Term
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Hell with it...I gotta go, try again tomorrow.
I now use Firefox as my browser and the picture worked fine. When I switched to Internet Explorer, I got da red x, too.
Anybody know?
Bye!
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Hell with it...I gotta go, try again tomorrow.
I now use Firefox as my browser and the picture worked fine. When I switched to Internet Explorer, I got da red x, too.
Anybody know?
Bye!
I can see it but I am using firefox as well. Then I looked at it on explorer, and got the red x. That is strange.
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Yep, it's Explorer...I am on Google Chrome and I see the add, Term. So something in explorer is blocking it..Bill will probably know.
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Here's my two cents. Salt systems are incredibly popular for swimming pools these days. They are in demand by the consumer. As we all know, Arctic has had a system out for awhile. I would assume they've done fairly well with it.
One of the primary reasons salt systems on pools have been so popular is the way the water feels. You get a much softer feel with the salt than you do with the traditional chlorine sanitization. People also say their eyes don't burn as much or at all. That makes sense since your tears are saline.
I personally thought the AutoFresh system they came out with a few years ago was a big loser. Way too much money up front and too much money to keep the chemicals going all year. $300-$400/year for spa chemicals was way too much. They still have the system, but I'd bet most of the dealers have only sold a handful. To JJ's point, Hot Spring always sold how easy the spas were to take care of. Why then, spend $1,000 up front and $300-$400/year.
I think the cost of this new system is high as well. If you figure $1,000 for a $10,000 hot tub, that's 10%. That is a pretty expensive accessory. If the cost were around $500, then I think it would fly off the shelves. Systems for pools retail anywhere from $500 - $1,000, so the Hot Spring cost is not out of the normal range, it is just at the high end. However, if you compare $30,000 for a pool and pay $1,000 for the system, that is a much lower percentage of the overall cost.
As far as the chem costs go, I don't know if Hot Spring is using a specific salt that you must use, or if you'll be able to use any salt for spas/pools. The ongoing costs shouldn't be too high for a salt system. Maybe the Arctic guys could fill us in on the ongoing costs since they've had Onzen for awhile.
Overall, I think salt could do well if the upfront cost was around the $500 mark. Just my two cents worth.
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I built a similar system on a Marquis with the PHD in charge of water chemistry and training programs for the National Swimming Pool Association on his spa. The system created many challenges including extra plumbing and excessive wear on the components but more than that we've replaced the Generator 2 times in 2 years.
All the fittings that fed the system were also deteriorated and had to be replaced. As a whole the system was easy to maintain but really not a lot easier than a regular chlorine system. I would say that the cost wont outweigh the benefits in the long haul and that this being the first generation of the system in the spas I would wait to see if it lasts. The only system that has made it long term over the years is silver and ozone.
BTW, even the viton seals in the pumps failed early on that spa....
I think that often people associate the Tri-Chlor in pools or the old Bromine Floaters with the Di-Chlor or Bromine systems used today. This is not the case and with most spas that have a decent filter system you can use just good old fashion Di-chlor and achieve great results without smell or irritation. The secret is keeping the water balanced and keeping a constant sanitizer in the spa.
I say all this because many dealers take systems like this and sell it as “Chemical Free” much like the Freshwater system was sold all over the country. My bet is that in our area it will be sold as a “Chlorine free” salt system rather than what it really is.
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i hope that it will work better for Hot Springs, i have been around the Genesis generator also the salt generator, i am not selling either anymore, it is supposed to be easier for the consumer, they have ended up with more maintenance as in cleaning the s/s plates often, if not watched close enough it will rust out any stainless steel in the tub, it will also take out heaters and pump seals. you end spending more time checking for more parameters than you simple test strip. i am changing out a customer with a salt system they have had for 2 years back to just an ozone with chlorine...he was fed up with the extra maintenance, so i am not a fan of these........for the cost and chemical checking its not worth it..for dealer and home owner....
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Q: How much salt does the ACE salt water sanitizing system use, and will it cause corrosion?
A: Pool systems use up to 5000 ppm of salt. High salt levels, like those used in a pool, combined with unstable water in a spa can corrode equipment overtime. The unique diamond technology used by the ACE system allows us to minimize salt levels to 1000 – 1500 ppm and prevent corrosion.
Terminator (Here to help)
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Q: How much salt does the ACE salt water sanitizing system use, and will it cause corrosion?
A: Pool systems use up to 5000 ppm of salt. High salt levels, like those used in a pool, combined with unstable water in a spa can corrode equipment overtime. The unique diamond technology used by the ACE system allows us to minimize salt levels to 1000 – 1500 ppm and prevent corrosion.
Terminator (Here to help)
No disrespect Term but even 1500 ppm over time will be VERY tough on those spas. Salt is extremely corrosive by nature and will harm everything it touches in those spas. I would proceed with extreme caution if I were you. I pretty much refuse to sell em on the Arctics after my personal experiences on my spa.
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Thanks for all the replies. Since this system can be added at anytime, sounds like I may be better off hang tight and see what happens with the new system and see how I do balancing the water the "ole fashion" way.
Damn, I need to get the tub first!!!
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No disrespect Term but even 1500 ppm over time will be VERY tough on those spas. Salt is extremely corrosive by nature and will harm everything it touches in those spas. I would proceed with extreme caution if I were you. I pretty much refuse to sell em on the Arctics after my personal experiences on my spa.
Believe me, I'm the world's biggest skeptic when it comes to new stuff! We just got four units in a couple of days ago and we're going to set them up in the showroom and test them awhile before selling them. All this stuff is new to me.
Q: How is the ACE salt water sanitizing system different from a traditional chlorine generating system?
A: Common generator cells use titanium electrodes capable of producing only chlorine. The ACE system uses unique solid diamond electrode along with two titanium electrodes. The patented diamond electrode increases the sanitizing power in the water while using less salt. The salt concentration is slightly more than tap water.
Term (Learning right along with all of ya'll)
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I just read this thread and was going to mention how corrosive salt is and I saw this from Stuart. I have an above ground pool and thought about a salt system for it but was advised against it from a manufacturer's rep because of the likelihood that my walls would corrode from the splash out.
I would imagine it would happen in and around a spa as well to anything not made of high quality stainless steel. Buying dichlor from Doc @ $30 for 5 lbs would buy an awful lot of dichlor as someone mentioned.
I built a similar system on a Marquis with the PHD in charge of water chemistry and training programs for the National Swimming Pool Association on his spa. The system created many challenges including extra plumbing and excessive wear on the components but more than that we've replaced the Generator 2 times in 2 years.
All the fittings that fed the system were also deteriorated and had to be replaced. As a whole the system was easy to maintain but really not a lot easier than a regular chlorine system. I would say that the cost wont outweigh the benefits in the long haul and that this being the first generation of the system in the spas I would wait to see if it lasts. The only system that has made it long term over the years is silver and ozone.
BTW, even the viton seals in the pumps failed early on that spa....
I think that often people associate the Tri-Chlor in pools or the old Bromine Floaters with the Di-Chlor or Bromine systems used today. This is not the case and with most spas that have a decent filter system you can use just good old fashion Di-chlor and achieve great results without smell or irritation. The secret is keeping the water balanced and keeping a constant sanitizer in the spa.
I say all this because many dealers take systems like this and sell it as “Chemical Free” much like the Freshwater system was sold all over the country. My bet is that in our area it will be sold as a “Chlorine free” salt system rather than what it really is.
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The salt levels are really very low. However, I have not been a fan of raising salt levels even the tiniest amount for fear of corrosion of important components. For the same reason, I like good filtration systems and things like Nature2 which can allow us to run our tubs safely using less chlorine.
Supporters of these salt systems sure make it sound like salt is not corrosive in their system... but after doing this in a beach community for close to 25 years, I have found that salt is corrosive - period. Small amounts may be very slightly less corrosive, but still corrosive. The good news is that since chlorine/bromine is also corrosive, most of the components on all of our tubs have been built by the various makers to be corrosion-resistant. We have all been using corrosive materials in our tubs for a long time. This is just another one, and these systems are designed to reduce the amount of chlorine, so theoretically you could end up exposing your tub to fewer corrosives over it's life.
The weak link on any salt generator is going to be the cell - the part which contains the electrodes which are in contact with the spa water. Early systems used less noble metals, which didn't last very long at all. That was the plan because they also didn't cost very much to replace. One manufacturer - forgive me but I don't recall which one - gave a five-year warranty, but the cells only made it a year or two tops. They simply sent you out a replacement cell to exchange for yours - under warranty - and it became obvious that they had simply counted on every user replacing that cell once or twice under the five year warranty. They built it into the price, but not into the sales pitch.
I trust Watkins not to do that - which is most likely the reason that the ACE system is so pricey - Titanium and Diamond in the cell. That is a guess on my part, and I'm not going to be able to fit one on my old Classic (25 year old trade-in which we have been enjoying for close to a year now), so I'll have to get one set up on a floor-model.
Ease of ownership - that seems to be the pitch. If it does make it easier, the tubs will be getting more use and be more popular. Even if they cost a bit more.
We'll see how long the cells last...
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Q: Will the ACE salt water sanitizing system cause damage (oxidization) to components above the water line – like the cover and the pillows?
A: The ACE system greatly minimizes damage to components above the waterline because it minimizes chemicals in the air space. Because the ACE system generates chlorine over time there is very little vapor escaping compared to large manual doses. The ACE system also minimizes chloramine generation that can enter the air space, and removing the ozone system will help avoid damage.
Q: Will salt collect behind the pillows and on the fittings above the water?
A: The salt concentration is slightly more than tap water. When using the Vanishing Act (calcium remover), you should see reduced water lines and salt/scale formation.
Q: Will the salt water harm decks or plants?
A: No. The salt level of water when using the ACE system is not high enough to cause damage. However, it is recommended to regularly hose down decks and nearby plants, as high levels of salt can damage and discolor decking as well as kill plants. When draining the spa, follow all local codes and guidelines.
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Question. So do you use a ozonator with this system?
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Question. So do you use a ozonator with this system?
No sir, the ozonator is removed and the ACE unit installed in its place.
Q: How does the ACE salt water sanitizing system use diamond technology to generate chlorine?
A: Unlike common titanium electrodes that convert chloride or bromide salt directly into chlorine or bromine, a diamond electrode used in the ACE system generates high energy Active Oxygen from water. The active oxygen can then clean the water without chlorinated or brominated byproducts. Once the water is clean, the active oxygen produces the chlorine residual as well as ozone, hydrogen peroxide, and MPS. (Note that MPS generation is dependent on having pH down present in the water.)
The diamond/titanium technology is pretty incredible. I'm still trying to find out how many carats are in that rascal...Ol' Meanness needs a new ring!
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it seems like some of you are too hung up on the $ to $ comparison of salt vs. dichlor/silver. there are many other reasons it will succeed besides that. dichlor is popular here (and its what i use at home) but more and more of my customers have been asking for something different/better. to most of us on this forum water chemistry is a snap, but every day we encounter customers who struggle with the task. you caution that low salt levels may be harmful, but we KNOW that people ruin their spas all the time by not sticking to the more complicated regiments they started with. draining less often,and being more environmentally friendly are a couple more factors they can consider.
for t.c. be sure that 2009 hss model will be compatible with salt if you choose it later. there is a serial number cutoff that divides compatible and non-compatible models.