Hot Tub Forum
Original => Hot Tub Forum => Topic started by: striider on September 23, 2008, 03:00:28 am
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SO 10 months ago, I bought a "barely used" hot tub on Craigslist, and being the handy guy I am, I figured it would be easy to maintain and fix if it had any problems. The previous owner had it drained and winterized properly when I started talking to him about buying it, and said it worked fine before it was drained. I wanted to see it run with water in it and look for leaks, but made the deal anyway since it was such a new tub. Turns out, it was 10 degrees the night before I was to pick it up, and the dolt filled it about 1/4 of the way before I told him nevermind - I didn't want to see it full since I had already scheduled a mover for the next morning. So, other than a broken coupler going into the heater from freezing, which I replaced with a 2 piece, I had no problems for about 6 months. A few months ago, I noticed a small amount of water coming out of the low side of my concrete slab I have it on. No noticeable water level decrease really, but a small leak for sure. Well, I put it off most of the summer, but about 2 weeks ago, I finally drained it, tilted it up on one side, and started looking for leaks. After removing the protective plastic covering on the bottom, and digging out lots of foam, I found the source of one leak (I think) and replaced a segment of flex pipe. I also noticed another leak dripping off of the 6 way water manifold under the cool down seat area. I thought it was coming from above there somewhere, but couldn't tell for sure since the tub was on it's side and the water trail was drying up.
I decided to get smart and actually see where the leak was coming from, so down to the auto parts store I went, and I am now the proud owner of 10 2-ton jack stands. The tub is about 14" off the ground and half full of water and now I have 5 wet spots under there! So for the last 2 days after work, I have been digging out foam and tightening the large nuts on the backs of jets. It seems this is where my leaks so far have been coming from, although I have still not found the one near the manifold - been too busy with other faster leaks.
Lessons learned so far include:
1) CalSpas are very nice to sit in and relax, but also suck arse and leak for no reason...even if they are only 2-3 years old and you maintain the chemicals perfectly.
2) Always start high in the foam and work down...chances are that the leak is at a jet way up near the body.
3) Never use a super long screwdriver to turn a nut behind a jet...you will split the nut and curse ALOT because now you have to replace an entire jet assembly.
Questions I have for the experts are:
1) Is there an easy way to replace the broken nut on the back of this jet? It looks like there is only one way - remove the water and air fittings from the assembly and patch in new air tubing with couplers and new flex pipe. Is it possible to get flex pvc pipe out of a jet assembly, or should I save myself the pain and buy a new one? Do they make some kind of 2 piece nut for these like I used on the heater coupler?
2) Do CalSpas really suck this badly, or am I just lucky and got some Mexican that can't tighten nuts that put mine together?
3) Should I go ahead and dig out every jet and tighten them, even if they aren't already leaking?
4) Should I spend $300 to buy expanding foam to replace all the foam I have dug out or leave the pipes exposed for now? Of course they will be under the side panels and I have some normal fiberglass insulation I could put in there for the time being.
Thanks in advance folks!
Striider
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It is not a problem with Cal Spas it is the fact that that fool left water in the plumbing lines and it froze and caused your leaks. I do not care who makes the spa no matter the manufacturer the outcome would have been the same maybe less maybe worse. To try and say this is poor manufacturing is incorrect.
Last winter I had my car painted and the radiator replaced and some joker put water in the radiator, now it leaks through the freeze plugs should I blame Ford?
Both of the instances are the result of neglect plain and simple. :-/
Give me the serial number let me research your tub. I am interrested in seeing the history of this thing.
I think I know where this thread is going but I will let it ride out. ::)
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1. I am not aware of split nut for the jets. Yes you can remove the flex from the jet with a heat gun but it takes some practice.
2. Might as well check the rest since you are already that far into it. I do not know if they where left loose, sometimes when a shell get too hot from sun exposure it will warp the jets and make them appear to be loose.
3. Save as much of the old stuff as you can and put it back in the spa and use cans of spray to seal in.
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Thanks guys for the tips...now I need to find a heat gun and try not to set the foam on fire ;D
Not sure if this is the right serial, but the one on the heater reads like this:
Date: 3/2/06
Serial: 12721
I am not sure if this could all be attributed to freeze damage, since there was no water in the lines behind the jets that are leaking, and most didn't start leaking until I moved it again to put it up on it's side.
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My guess is that you are seeing a result from freeze damage as well as a tub sitting empty allowing the o-rings to dry out and shrink. It's not a Cal issue... it's owner abuse.
Steve
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Maybe...but check this out. This 6 way gang thingy is leaking from one of the joints on the top tubes! You guys think I can grind out the leftover residue in the large pipe on the left after I saw this thing off and splice 6 extensions onto the pink flex pvc pipes? the large white pipe feels pretty rigid.
(http://home.comcast.net/~striider/smaller.jpg)
I also went ahead and cut off the jet that broke the nut on, and the gasket seems nice and pliable still - very silicony.
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That's nothing, I have a sieve that leaks like a hot tub.
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Your tub serial # will be on the plate at the bottom right at the front of the tub.
It should start with 06S-..... and have 5 corresponding #'s
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There is no plate in the control area of the tub or anywhere else I can find. The only serial I can find is hand written onto the Balboa heating unit and matches the inspection paper tucked into the control area also.
Serial = 12721
Model A857L
Shell Color = Odyssey
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A ram bit will clean out plumbing so you can reuse it.
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Repair is still in progress, but the mystery of the leaking jets is SOLVED!
I removed the jet that I broke the nut on, and noticed that the inner jet assembly was SUPER tight. I could not get it out or even turn it while it was in the tub. Some jets have been stationary since I got the tub, and I just assumed they were not supposed to turn or rotate out easily like most of the others. I was wrong. They are all supposed to be adjustable, and they are all supposed to have a little room around them so they can rotate freely within the actual jet body. I had to put the whole jet body and assembly in a bench vise and get both hands on it to rotate the assembly out of the body!
I have been working with a local hot tub repair guy to get parts, and talked to him at length about this. It turns out these jets (mostly on one wall of the tub) have been overheated and warped from being exposed while the tub was empty in the sun. This makes perfect sense, because the warped jets are all on one side of the tub, probably the side that got the direct afternoon sun. The sun here in Colorado can be especially brutal at altitude. He said Calspas are prone to this due to the stainless steel escutcheons and the dark color of the jet assemblys, they heat up quickly and get HOT. You can see on this jet that it is visibly warped and has actually shrunk in diameter compared to the replacement. So I started looking at the other jets that have been leaking, and without fail you can see that they also are warped, and the seals have been allowed to shift underneath. Tightening them like I have done may work for awhile, but eventually I am facing 20-30 jet replacement.
FUN eh?
We were all partially right, it was owner abuse that has led to all of my problems. I am still working on replacing that 6 way manifold and will let you know how that goes. Thanks for all the help so far folks, you rock!
The moral of this story is:
[size=20]TAKE CARE OF YOUR HOT TUB! NEVER leave it uncovered and empty in the sun for ANY length of time for ANY reason.[/size][/b]
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Repair is still in progress, but the mystery of the leaking jets is SOLVED!
I removed the jet that I broke the nut on, and noticed that the inner jet assembly was SUPER tight. I could not get it out or even turn it while it was in the tub. Some jets have been stationary since I got the tub, and I just assumed they were not supposed to turn or rotate out easily like most of the others. I was wrong. They are all supposed to be adjustable, and they are all supposed to have a little room around them so they can rotate freely within the actual jet body. I had to put the whole jet body and assembly in a bench vise and get both hands on it to rotate the assembly out of the body!
I have been working with a local hot tub repair guy to get parts, and talked to him at length about this. It turns out these jets (mostly on one wall of the tub) have been overheated and warped from being exposed while the tub was empty in the sun. This makes perfect sense, because the warped jets are all on one side of the tub, probably the side that got the direct afternoon sun. The sun here in Colorado can be especially brutal at altitude. He said Calspas are prone to this due to the stainless steel escutcheons and the dark color of the jet assemblys, they heat up quickly and get HOT. You can see on this jet that it is visibly warped and has actually shrunk in diameter compared to the replacement. So I started looking at the other jets that have been leaking, and without fail you can see that they also are warped, and the seals have been allowed to shift underneath. Tightening them like I have done may work for awhile, but eventually I am facing 20-30 jet replacement.
FUN eh?
We were all partially right, it was owner abuse that has led to all of my problems. I am still working on replacing that 6 way manifold and will let you know how that goes. Thanks for all the help so far folks, you rock!
The moral of this story is:
[size=20]TAKE CARE OF YOUR HOT TUB! NEVER leave it uncovered and empty in the sun for ANY length of time for ANY reason.[/size][/b]
OK,
I've got to step in here and say something...Yes, you never want to leave any brand of spa uncovered in the Colorado sun. Your tech saying that Cal was more prone to this than other brands is incorrect. I've had several jets warp and fail in the D1 spas as well as many other brands for this very reason. It really doesn't seem to matter what the jets are.
Here is where I have a problem...although you've brought out some interesting points as a homeowner fixing your own spa, you've also made offhanded comments that may or may not have been intentional about the Cal Spa brand so lets clear this up;
This spa has been abused! It was left in the sun uncovered, it was left with water in it in the winter without power. The only thing worse than those two things is to take a sledge hammer to it!
I'm happy to help if I can as a Cal Spa Dealer here in Colorado however lets blame the situation on the abuse and not list it as brand specific problems...No brand would have held up in those conditions.
Being a new Cal dealer I honestly can't tell you of any problems that are ongoing with that year of spa however, so far we are getting rave reveiws from existing customers who had the product from the old dealer!
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Thanks Stuart. I agree with you - this is not a CalSpas problem, it's an abuse problem. I did not say "more prone" nor insinuate that it was brand related, I was merely stating facts about what probably accellerated this issue for me. Another thing to note is that my tub body is Navy Blue (Odyssey), so it also sucks in the heat, but I am not blaming CalSpas for that either. I love my tub (when it's working), and I have no animosity towards CalSpas at this point, just the dolt I bought it from. Add me to the dolt list for not knowing what to look for before purchasing.
On a side note - maybe you can make me a bulk deal on those jets I need to replace? ;)
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O.k so the tub was left out in the sun and the jets and housings warped. In perspective that is an incredible spa shell that can with stand that kind of abuse and not blister, crack or peel. This means they are doing something right. Remember they do not make the plumbing or its parts, however they take all the steps necessary to make certain the spa shell can with stand this kind of abuse. A good testament!!
Last year at a show, a spa rep friend of mine was out in a tent, sun shining bright, one of the spas was kinda hangin outside the tent in the sun. Imagine his surprise when the spa he was a rep for blistered the size of a softball in less than half of a day.
I would be amazed to see the many outcomes we would have in a testing ground of this nature.
Bring on the Geloy!!!!!!!!! ;D
BTW give me a call, I will see what kind of price we can get on those jets.
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O.k so the tub was left out in the sun and the jets and housings warped. In perspective that is an incredible spa shell that can with stand that kind of abuse and not blister, crack or peel.
What is different in a CalSpas acrylic than a similar acrylic? I thought there were only a few companies that made acrylic for all spas? :-? Just curious as I've never heard that before.
Steve
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There are three major acrylic companies...The acrylic has less to do with it than the bonding agent and sheer strength of the shell.
The "friend" spaman is talking about is me... the spa was a D1 Amore Bay and it blistered pretty rapidly with just a small portion of it sticking out in the sun.
I've yet to see the results with the new Cal's but my guess is this was a good testament right here!
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Yup my spa has a super strong shell, I can attest to that. We moved it here in the freezing cold, some dillhole left it in the direct sunlight, and there are no cracks or any hint of flex that I can see. Around the jets that are leaking, I can see no seepage into the shell at all, and it is almost 1/4 inch thick. Something tells me this tub will be around long after I am gone for sure. It still looks brand new also, I will post some pictures after I get it all set up again.
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FYI,
You can pour properly mixed fiberglass resin over almost anything with stress cracks and it will seal the leak and last basically forever. If you mix it too hot, it becomes brittle.
Make sure the tub is off and there is no pressure in the lines when you do this.
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There are three major acrylic companies...The acrylic has less to do with it than the bonding agent and sheer strength of the shell.
The "friend" spaman is talking about is me... the spa was a D1 Amore Bay and it blistered pretty rapidly with just a small portion of it sticking out in the sun.
I've yet to see the results with the new Cal's but my guess is this was a good testament right here!
Honest question here. Wasn't the blistering of the D1 shell due to the spa retaining the heat because of the full foam insulation? I don't think any full foam spas allow you to leave the spa in the direct sunlight without a cover or water.
Non-full foam spas allow the heat on the shell to dissipate so they won't blister as quickly. That is what I've always been told. Let me know if that is incorrect.
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Honest question here. Wasn't the blistering of the D1 shell due to the spa retaining the heat because of the full foam insulation? I don't think any full foam spas allow you to leave the spa in the direct sunlight without a cover or water.
Non-full foam spas allow the heat on the shell to dissipate so they won't blister as quickly. That is what I've always been told. Let me know if that is incorrect.
This is incorrect the Cal Spa was full foam, the reason for the blister in the D1 was because the shell did not bond to the backing well enough to keep it from seperating. I will agree that "elasty caste" is hard but it allows for blistering. Some believe that the reason for blistering is the blame of full foam, in reality if you back the acrylic right it will not blister.
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Well if it was a case of full foam then here's a funny fact...The footwell has little to no foam in it or at best the least amount in the whole tub.
The blisters where only in the footwell...
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When I had my Cal Spa torn apart due to freeze damage the place that had the least amount of foam was right under the main foot well just, I bet there was under 1" of foam under it. Let me see if I have a picture to show what I mean...
Here we go, you can kinda see what I mean, right under the 2x4 that goes threw the middle
(http://i141.photobucket.com/albums/r59/nickPSD/453.jpg)
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When I had my Cal Spa torn apart due to freeze damage the place that had the least amount of foam was right under the main foot well just, I bet there was under 1" of foam under it. Let me see if I have a picture to show what I mean...
Here we go, you can kinda see what I mean, right under the 2x4 that goes threw the middle
(http://i141.photobucket.com/albums/r59/nickPSD/453.jpg)
WOW! That must be at least 10 years old, the bottom of Cal Spas look nothing like that today. There is at least 3.5" of foam under them today. I am amazed how many people allow spas to freeze.
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Its 8 years old to be exact, considering I got the hot tub for free, im not going to complain, I replaced all the pumps and put a new Balboa VS510 spa pack in, I added alot of insulation in the tub, also, im not hoping for much of any trouble. So far so good... Knock on wood ;D
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Well guys, after my hot tub has been sitting empty and covered for a couple of weeks during repairs, guess what I noticed today? HUGE bubbles in the acrylic all over the side that must have gotten past sun exposure. I guess I am done owning a hot tub, and out $3000 because I am an idiot. Unsure why the bubbles just showed up now - maybe water pressure or something kept them in check until it sat empty? SO I take back my sterling review of the shell, as it did not hold up any better than the jets apparently. Thanks for all the help.
Any of you Denver guys know of someone that will come haul this thing off and maybe give me something for it for parts? It is only 2.5 years old after all.
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can you send pics of it? Where is the eggs wiping off of chin smiley?
I can fix it,
I mean I know a guy that can fix it.
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They are massive, man. One is the size of 2 or 3 softballs. I will post pics tomorrow I guess.
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They are massive, man. One is the size of 2 or 3 softballs. I will post pics tomorrow I guess.
Is the spa fixed otherwise or did you have pending repairs that you've now put on hold?
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I have the 6 way manifold underneath the cool down seat area to replace still, and a jet on the other side of the tub to replace. It has been removed, but not replaced yet, as I was going to order both parts at the same time.
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There are ways to fix blisters, don't junk it yet. We have heard of, but not tried a method from our manufacturer...You drill 2 small holes in the blister, a size that you can glue a small piece of vinyal tubing in, glue tubing in each, squirt super glue (they have one made for acrylic repair) in one tube while applying a vacuum to the other pulling the blister down to the backing and sealing it.
It sounds good in therory, but we have not tried it. There are several other ways that may work also depending on the blistering, backing ect.
Good Luck.
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I have come to the realization that aside from the original 2 leaks, all of this is my fault. It turns out I was wrong about my tub not being exposed to the sun under my care. After tracking the sun in my backyard more closely, I see that in the afternoon, the way my tub was facing when I had it up on it's side exposed all the blistered areas to pretty much direct sunlight for a 2 week period. Yeah I know...don't say it! ::)
That being said...who can fix my tub?
Thanks,
Eric
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Ive fixed a lot of blisters in my time...You simply drill a small hole, heat it with a heat gun and roll the blister down.
The way Hillbilly explained could work however it's kind tough to do and you could break the accrylic.
I don't know that I would try it myself if I were you. I will call my guy in Denver that's done it for years for me and see if he is still at it.
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Ive fixed a lot of blisters in my time...You simply drill a small hole, heat it with a heat gun and roll the blister down.
The way Hillbilly explained could work however it's kind tough to do and you could break the accrylic.
I don't know that I would try it myself if I were you. I will call my guy in Denver that's done it for years for me and see if he is still at it.
Hi Stuart - any luck contacting your acrylic repair guy?
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Ive fixed a lot of blisters in my time...You simply drill a small hole, [glow]heat it with a heat gun [/glow]and roll the blister down.
The way Hillbilly explained could work however it's kind tough to do and you could break the accrylic.
I don't know that I would try it myself if I were you. I will call my guy in Denver that's done it for years for me and see if he is still at it.
My husband yelled at me for forgetting to add the heat gun part of the method we were taught....sorry about that!
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Well if it was a case of full foam then here's a funny fact...The footwell has little to no foam in it or at best the least amount in the whole tub. The blisters where only in the footwell...
The footwell also has the thinnest acrylic of the entire tub - and often is a good shape for focusing the heat of the sun.
8-)
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SO if I drill a small hole- what do I use to fill the hole? Also, in the footwell blister, I see cracks already...are these fixable? What bonds the acrylic back to the fiberglass underrneath if I simply heat and roll it back down? Won't these areas become a problem again at some point?
Inquiring minds wanna know!
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I'm not so sure you want to tackel this by yourself if you've never tried it but I'm pretty sure you don't want to inject glue and go through the vacuum process.
If you do here is all that I would do in your shoes..
1. I would drill a small hole in the edge of the bilster
2. heat the blister with a heat gun
3. get a roller and roll the blister down towards the hole
4. get an epoxy and plug the hole
I've tried to get in touch with my guy in Denver but no luck yet, he's a school teacher (that may be retired) teaching shop.
He really is the best if we can get him.
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Shouldn't he insert an adhesive into the hole to make the acrylic bond back to the fiberglass? 'course what do I know? ::)
I'm not so sure you want to tackel this by yourself if you've never tried it but I'm pretty sure you don't want to inject glue and go through the vacuum process.
If you do here is all that I would do in your shoes..
1. I would drill a small hole in the edge of the bilster
2. heat the blister with a heat gun
3. get a roller and roll the blister down towards the hole
4. get an epoxy and plug the hole
I've tried to get in touch with my guy in Denver but no luck yet, he's a school teacher (that may be retired) teaching shop.
He really is the best if we can get him.
I am thinkin' Gorilla Glue.
Hey Stuart did you ever get your royalty check from Gorilla Glue?
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Pool fix filler and glue is the product we have used, glues the acrylic back to the fiberglass so it does not blister back up, but it sounds like he has many blisters cracks to deal with.
Another dealer in the area has tried spray on bedliner in the footwell of a blistered tub. So far it has worked, we are giving it time to see what the chemicals do to the bedliner. Its been 4 months and no signs of chemicals causing an issue with the bedliner yet. We will see.
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Pool fix filler and glue is the product we have used, glues the acrylic back to the fiberglass so it does not blister back up, but it sounds like he has many blisters cracks to deal with.
Another dealer in the area has tried spray on bedliner in the footwell of a blistered tub. So far it has worked, we are giving it time to see what the chemicals do to the bedliner. Its been 4 months and no signs of chemicals causing an issue with the bedliner yet. We will see.
You have just revealed the secret to the next Super Dooper custom fallsaprt III. I would expect charges to be braught.
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You can buy Acrylic repair kits from the internet or even Ace Hardware...that is the glue to use.
You probably won't be able to match color yourself but you can get the blister out and seal the hole.
Again, I strongly advise you to hire a pro and by no means should you heat the blister and then put a vacuum to it yourself. You could wind up with an even bigger problem.
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Howdy folks. I have recently decided to tackle this project, as the weather really makes me miss having a working hot tub. I also realized that I have a friend that has spent years repairing acrylic tubs, but not hot tubs specifically. I am going to order some acrylic repair from multi-tech, since I have one bubble that has a crack in it in the foot well. We are still debating whether to try to deflate the bubbles I have by drilling a hole and heating to lay them down, or not messing with the uncracked ones at all and hoping they never crack or leak. Any ideas?
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Howdy folks. I have recently decided to tackle this project, as the weather really makes me miss having a working hot tub. I also realized that I have a friend that has spent years repairing acrylic tubs, but not hot tubs specifically. I am going to order some acrylic repair from multi-tech, since I have one bubble that has a crack in it in the foot well. We are still debating whether to try to deflate the bubbles I have by drilling a hole and heating to lay them down, or not messing with the uncracked ones at all and hoping they never crack or leak. Any ideas?
Once you grind those blisters out your in it for the long haul. If it were my tub I would heat them and roll them down with a dowel knowing that if they came back or got worse I could always takle the grinding steps later.
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As an option - and I'm not saying this is the BEST option, but it will add to your choices - you can simply remove the blistered area from the Acrylic sheet.
I have done this on older tubs which had other cosmetic issues, or in rental properties or other situations where the look of the tub was not the major issue compared to the function of the tub.
Simply cut out the blister with a sharp utility knife or hobby knife, and then carefully sand down the edges. If the 'glass behind the blister is rough (common) then you have the choice of sanding it smooth or filling it. If you sand, be aware that you can end up sanding the area around the blister, which will dull the finish unless you sand it down again with wet-dry paper going step by step up to about 1200 grit and then buffing it out to get back the gloss. A lot of work, and it will all be next to an ugly area anyway.
So I have just cut out the blister, sanded down any sharp edges left by the cutting, and then filled it with a thin layer of Bondo. Use a squeegee to apply the bondo in a smooth layer so you don't have to sand IT later, or cover it with a sheet of plastic which you can peel just before the Bondo completely sets up. It is not a big deal if you have to do minor sanding on the Bondo later, but it is pretty hard stuff once it sets up.
Don't misunderstand: it looks bad this way. If you are doing a lot of blisters and if you can keep the Bondo inside the round circles left by the blisters it may look like it was supposed to be there, but most likely it will look odd. Keep in mind it will be under water, it will allow you to get back in the tub, AND you have a smooth surface to walk on, the edges of the blister are sealed, and it should not come up again.
8-)
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I assume you use fiberglass based bondo and not the talc based stuff? Also, are you putting a coat of sealer/acrylic over it when done? I have pretty much decided to see if I can live with the blisters and just repair the one that cracked for the time being.
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The smaller blisters that we found are now heat gunned and rolled down. The cracks that we found around a couple of the blisters have been repaired using an acrylic hot tub repair kit matched to my color that my friend recommended. It worked very well, after we used a Dremel to clean up the edges of the cracks and then filled and color coated them. The super huge blister, and a couple others that seemed to be out of the way, we left alone.
We decided it would be very difficult to get the whole blister heated enough to roll it down and we would probably end up causing many cracks in the process. Right now, it looks uncracked and is in a kind of out of the way area where no one's back will probably ever touch it. We shall see, as I still have some repair acrylic left.
I am now working on fixing the rest of the leaks, and have cut off the 6 way manifold, but found it is connected to a T. I would really rather not have to cut out the huge T and cause even more areas for potential leaks later. In the picture below, you can see the remains of the 6 way manifold inside the mouth of the T. Any ideas how to get this bad boy out without damaging the T? I was hoping the T was a pipe and I could cut it back and make a 1 new coupler to extend it, not 6 couplers to extend all 6 small pipes...
(http://striider.home.comcast.net/~striider/t.jpg)
(http://striider.home.comcast.net/~striider/side.jpg)