Hot Tub Forum
Original => Hot Tub Forum => Topic started by: Vinny on July 02, 2008, 08:24:12 pm
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Well when I opened my pool I found my calcium levels high and my cya level at under 30 - so it is time to use bleach. I am going on vacation next week so that will be adding CYA tto the pool but back to the spa ...
I figured if I have to add bleach to the pool what a great time to add bleach to my spa and my spa is now out of warranty as it hit 3 YO in June. I've started using it now for about a week as I was having chlorine lock issues and tested the CYA in the spa and it was at 70 - don't know how!
Anyway, my PH has stayed stable and the chlorine is staying in the tub for about 2 days, I think this is due to chlorine lock. I had 3 PPM 2 days ago and tonight it was about 1 PPM so I added more. I have stopped the ozonator and I will see how the tub is with shocking it with bleach, no ozonator and not looking at it for a week. I have gone about a week before with shocking and ozonator running 24/7.
I guess time will tell.
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Vinny, I'm still with bleach and shock with MPS. No ozone or N2. Still satisfied. Its just too easy. I'm interested in your experiences.
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Tell me more about this bleach method. Do you use it instead of dichlor?
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Basically, it's a method that we learned from a pool forum similar to this.
You need to get about 25 PPM CYA before using bleach ... 25 PPM CYA is approximately 25 PPM chlorine. The chlorine goes but the CYA stays. After that start using bleach the same way you use dichlor. I think 0.64 oz of bleach gives you 3 ppm per 100 gallons of water (1/2 oz per 100 gallons is close enough or just add another 1/2 oz to the total to be safe).
The difference between dichlor and bleach is that you aren't adding CYA and the chlorine remains effective killing the hot tub itch bacteria because of the low CYA. Generally speaking the higher the CYA the less effective the same PPM of chlorine becomes. Using dichlor after 3 months we are probably over 300 PPM CYA which really hinders the chlorine effectiveness.
Ask away if you have any more questions.
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Vinny,
Let us know your results. Dosing with sodium hypo sure would be a lot easier
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Lithium Hypo is also good.
8-)
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I like Lithium Hypo as well. In the past I've used it to shock with, however, lately I've been using it on a post soak application. I started using it exclusively after my last water change, after the CYA had reached 30-40 ppm through the initial use of Dichlor. The only downside I've observed is the need to periodically add a small amount of granular acid to keep the pH in check, and the cost and availability of Lithium Hypo. So far, the upside is that the water seems a little fresher and the combined chlorine is less and easier to eliminate. Time will tell.
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We inherited an above ground pool when we bought our house. I never owned a pool before, but my hubby did. We have one heck of a time getting our water clear. Now, we have a sand filter--changed the sand twice this year, backwashed, rinsed,... and while I don't have test strips, it does seem since we started adding bleach ab out a week ago, I have better chlorine readings on the test kit I do have, and the water is clearing. Hmmmm... seems I'll rather go with a $2 gallon of bleach, instead of or in addition to regular pool chems.
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Lithium Hypo is also good.
8-)
My local HS dealer recommends using Lithium Hypochlorite. All of their spas in their showroom are on Lithium. It's a recipe that was derived by Gary Keegan.
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My local HS dealer recommends using Lithium Hypochlorite. All of their spas in their showroom are on Lithium. It's a recipe that was derived by Gary Keegan.
Lithium is somewhat similar and does work well. It is a fast dissolving granular chlorine with a pH similar to bleach. It also does not add to CYA. The differences are that lithium will add to TDS at a much faster rate with its 35% chlorine content and it is one of the more expensive chlorines on the market. Although bleach is only 5-6% chlorine (or 10-12% for liquid pool shock), the rest is almost entirely water. It does release salt as a byproduct, but all chlorines revert to salt and the amount of salt added is minute compared to what a salt water generator would require. The biggest disadvantage to liquid chlorine is that it is a liquid and you must be very careful when adding. I use a 24 oz bottle of Chlorox and a small measuring cup at the spa itself.
Not that this is important (because it really isn't), but bleach is probably the most cost effective chlorine to use.
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I have a tub similar to Vinny's, but smaller- a 2005 Artesian Captiva, about 325 gallons. I originally used bromine in a floater. Worked fine, but I developed a sensitivity to bromine and switched to diclor, basically the "Vermonter" method. Again, worked fine, but the effectiveness of diclor seemed to decrease over the 4 month water cycle and the water sort of went "dead" in its feel. I am now on my second water cycle with bleach. I shock the water with diclor when I refill, and use about a teaspoon of diclor after each soak for about two weeks. I then switch to two ounces of bleach after each soak (or every couple of days if the tub is not beeing used) and shock about every two weeks with MPS. I run ozone 24/7 and use Nature2 or a Frog in the circ pump filter. My water seems to stay fresher longer and the bleach does not seem to lose its effectiveness (ie, I do not have to use more to reach the same clorine levels). This lets me feel like I can use more sanitizer to keep a higher margin of safety with my water without negative side effects. With diclor, I was always using the least amount I thought I could get away with. I do have to watch my PH, as it tends to rise with bleach. Nothing dramatic, and very easy to control. Overall, I like using bleach so far and intend to continue. I am the primary user of my tub, 3 or 4 times a week. Others use it, but not regularly. Jeff
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Well, I came back from vacation and I had 2 PPM chlorine left. PH was at 7.8. I guess I do have chlorine lock as I put a heck of a lot of bleach in the tub and it lasted all week and then some. I didn't know what I would find with the ozonator not working and I forgot to drop the temps.
So far the bleach seems to be working out OK.
I am continuing with my experiment
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Well, How goes the experiment so far? :-?
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The experiment went well and I forget why but I started using dichlor again ( I think it was rainy or something like that). Once my CYA got too high I decided to just continue with dichlor.
I just changed my water so my CYA is (was) at 0 and I am planing to use bleach again once my cya makes it to 20 to 30 PPM. I'll see how tough it is in winter pouring liquid vs tossing in granules.
I have to say, my PH stayed rock steady (if I remember correctly around 7.8), my tub stayed clear and I really had no problems. The only thing that I worried about is getting bleach on clothes or somewhere else that may be destroyed by the bleach if it got on it. I even used bleach to shock.
Anyway, I would recommend trying it once you have the water care down pat so that if problems arrise you'll know how to deal with it.
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The only thing that I worried about is getting bleach on clothes or somewhere else that may be destroyed by the bleach if it got on it. I even used bleach to shock.
IMO, this is the only downside of using bleach and I believe the only reason that spa manufacturers do not recommend its use.
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Help me understand a few things as I have been out of the industry a while now...
My recollection of bleach was that it dissipated very quickly in the water making it not as cost effective as some would assume, had a very high pH, was more dangerous to handle and was more effective in a swimming pool application for treating algae. Bleach was a very poor choice of sanitizers for sustaining chlorine readings and “could” be used as a shock if that was all you had. I also heard that it voided some warranties. Dunno if that was really true though… :-?
In over a decade of water testing, I found that draining a spa every 3-4 months made the CYA reading a moot point as very rarely did it play a factor so utilizing bleach to address it was pointless. TDS was far more critical and had a greater impact on the effectiveness of the sanitizer and other readings.
Steve
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Help me understand a few things as I have been out of the industry a while now...
My recollection of bleach was that it dissipated very quickly in the water making it not as cost effective as some would assume, had a very high pH, was more dangerous to handle and was more effective in a swimming pool application for treating algae. Bleach was a very poor choice of sanitizers for sustaining chlorine readings and “could” be used as a shock if that was all you had. I also heard that it voided some warranties. Dunno if that was really true though… :-?
In over a decade of water testing, I found that draining a spa every 3-4 months made the CYA reading a moot point as very rarely did it play a factor so utilizing bleach to address it was pointless. TDS was far more critical and had a greater impact on the effectiveness of the sanitizer and other readings.
Steve
Adding bleach to the water will increase the free chlorine level and sustain it as long as any chlorine. As with any chlorine, it works best if there is some stabilizer (CYA) present (30-40 ppm). It does dissipate sitting in the bottle unused after a period of time or more accurately looses some of its strength. Bleach or liquid chlorine is also sensitive to sunlight so it must be stored properly. It does have a higher pH, about the same as lithium hypochlorite but does not add any where near the TDS. CYA also adds to TDS. Most manufacturers do not like the use of bleach.
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I haven't done the cost per use breakdown so here it is: 96 oz of 6% bleach costs approx $1.50 and a 400 gallon tub takes about 2 1/2 oz to reach 3 PPM (I will use 3 oz for calculation simplicity), that would give a months worth of daily doses (actually 32 days) without using it for shock; 1.50 x 12 = $18.00. Dichlor would be around $30 so it is a little cheaper but you still need dichlor before using the bleach to get some CYA (20 to 30 PPM) into the tub.
Now for some thoughts on bleach vs all other chlorine. All chlorine acts the same on bacteria or algea as long as you use the proper amounts to get the desired effect. Trichlor adds CYA and is acidic, Dichlor adds CYA and is neutral, cal hypo adds calcium and I believe is alkaline and bleach adds salt and is alkaline. All chlorine apparently adds salt but 1/2 of what bleach does and all chlorine adds to the TDS of the water.
My water's PH stayed about the same while using bleach. Apparently, the reaction of using the disinfection ions (can never remember the names of the 2 ions) is acidic and counteracts the alkalinity of the bleach.
I can't comment on the "lasting" time of bleach in my tub because my tub seems to retain chlorine at times whether it's from bleach or dichlor; if anything I think it lasts about the same but I can't be positive.
The CYA is the real issue as it builds up over time. Yes, chlorine does kill most bacteria at a 300 PPM level but it's power is greatly reduced. If you use 3 PPM of dichlor at a time it adds about 2.7 PPM of CYA.. If you used the tub 6 days and shocked to 10 PPM on the seventh that would be 2.7 x 6 = 16.2 + 9 (shock) = 25.2 PPM per week; so 100 PPM can be achieved in a month depending on use. Of course not using the tub will reduce the amount of CYA in the tub. After about 30 PPM CYA chlorine has lost it's effect on the hot tub itch bacteria if it gets introduced. This bacteria needs a total contact time (minutes) and dose (chlorine) number of 2500 to consider it disinfected, chlorine effectiveness loses it's strength as CYA builds and higher levels of chlorine are needed to keep this bacteria in check.
The truth is - most people don't have to worry about the hot tub itch bacteria, using bleach seemed to be a little more of a hassel than granuals, draining water every 3 to 4 months is the most effective way to deal with the water, some people seem to want to keep their water forever and learning something new is FUN! ;)
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Vinny,
Glad to hear bleach is working out for you. I've been using it for 3 months now with zero problems. To me it's a no brainer. It's cheaper, easier and safer than using Dichlor alone.
As a matter of fact I turned two people on to using bleach. One coming from Bromine, and the other coming from a Copper based system. Since they've been on Bleach, they couldn't be happier.
Anyone using Dichlor, should seriously consider switching to the Dichlor/Bleach method. As far as the hot tub warranty, there is no possible way a manufacture (or anyone) can determine you were using bleach instead of Dichlor in your hot tub, IF you have CYA also. They are chemically identical in the water.
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I've just started using bleach this month. I'm glad it's so cheap and that it won't raise my CYA level! 8-)
hi nitro! :)