Hot Tub Forum
Original => Hot Tub Forum => Topic started by: Tailhooker on June 29, 2008, 12:37:14 pm
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Compared to Hot Spring, Caldera, Jacuzzi, Sundance, Arctic, D1, Marquis, etc. How does Cal Spas rank against the big boys up top. I know that they revamped their spa line (i.e. narrowed it down). Any thoughts??? :-/
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They aren't nearly as bad as they used to be in the 90s. You'll read a lot of bad reviews for them from that period so just put them in perspective. IMHO, 1998 was a turn-around year for them. Of course, that coincided with a change in their leadership that was much better.
They are one of the larger manufacturers.
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They aren't nearly as bad as they used to be in the 90s. You'll read a lot of bad reviews for them from that period so just put them in perspective. IMHO, 1998 was a turn-around year for them. Of course, that coincided with a change in their leadership that was much better.
They are one of the larger manufacturers.
Where do we put them then, up at the top... they tout all "GE" pumps?
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Where do we put them then, up at the top... they tout all "GE" pumps?
I personally am doing my best to boycott GE. Until they quit doing business with Iran, I won't do business with them.
In addition, the Pool industry stays away from GE motors. They have not been very good quality. Cal uses the GE name for brand recognition/marketing purposes.
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Based solely on my memory - which may very well be incorrect - the owner of Cal is related to the president or some upper-level manager/ceo of GE.
8-)
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Ask Marquis, Bullfrog and a few other what they think of GE and I sure you will not get a favorable response.
GE use to make a good motor but they are junk these days. Most manufactures fired them years ago but Cal stayed with them. A company that is willing to stay with such a bad motor tells me a lot of about the company. Tells me they are in bed with GE and that the customers do not matter. I would stay away from them.
Also the Dually pump is a stupid idea and they have lots of problems with them but still push them out the door, just so no to Dually. ;D
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Tailhooker.....
I purchased a new Cal a couple of years ago and I love my CalSpas tub!
Plus my CalSpas dealer has been great.
(http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y273/ItsZep/Hot%20Tub/Hooters066.jpg)
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Tailhooker.....
I purchased a new Cal a couple of years ago and I love my CalSpas tub!
Plus my CalSpas dealer has been great.
(http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y273/ItsZep/Hot%20Tub/Hooters066.jpg)
Your are the one, I knew there had to be a happy Cal owner out there somewhere. ;D
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"Your are the one, I knew there had to be a happy Cal owner out there somewhere" ;D
Yeah I'm the only happy CalSpas customer...lol...thats why CalSpas just built a new $20 million plant boosting manufacturing space to 1 million square feet. Since the company was purchased by the entrepreneur Casey Loyd eight years ago, Cal Spas has tripled in size. The expansion will boost the company's total work force to 1,200. Yep I must be the only one. ::)
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"Your are the one, I knew there had to be a happy Cal owner out there somewhere" ;D
Yeah I'm the only happy CalSpas customer...lol...thats why CalSpas just built a new $20 million plant boosting manufacturing space to 1 million square feet. Since the company was purchased by the entrepreneur Casey Loyd eight years ago, Cal Spas has tripled in size. The expansion will boost the company's total work force to 1,200. Yep I must be the only one. ::)
All good info, I am going to try one later this week... the dealer here is pretty good. Just tried the Sundance Cameo today. Not bad liked the lounger.
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Ask Marquis, Bullfrog and a few other what they think of GE and I sure you will not get a favorable response.
GE use to make a good motor but they are junk these days. Most manufactures fired them years ago but Cal stayed with them. A company that is willing to stay with such a bad motor tells me a lot of about the company. Tells me they are in bed with GE and that the customers do not matter. I would stay away from them.
Also the Dually pump is a stupid idea and they have lots of problems with them but still push them out the door, just so no to Dually. ;D
Gary is right. Lots of spa companies used to use GE motors until around 2003 when thousands and thousands of them started breaking down in the field. I think Cal might be one of the only companies still using GE. Other than some Costco/Wal Mart spas.
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Gary is right. Lots of spa companies used to use GE motors until around 2003 when thousands and thousands of them started breaking down in the field. I think Cal might be one of the only companies still using GE. Other than some Costco/Wal Mart spas.
Exactly why I said the Pool industry stays away from them. They've really never taken a foothold in the pool side of the business.
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"Your are the one, I knew there had to be a happy Cal owner out there somewhere" ;D
Yeah I'm the only happy CalSpas customer...lol...thats why CalSpas just built a new $20 million plant boosting manufacturing space to 1 million square feet. Since the company was purchased by the entrepreneur Casey Loyd eight years ago, Cal Spas has tripled in size. The expansion will boost the company's total work force to 1,200. Yep I must be the only one. ::)
So does that mean they just produce greater numbers of crappy spas? ;) Just teasing... they aren't as bad as they use to be and the majority of the issues were focused around head office not fufilling warraty issues in the past. A change of ownership was a positive move.
IMO, I wouldn't place them in the top 10 but, as most here comment, a HUGE part of the purchase revolves around the dealer and their commitment to customer service.
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"I wouldn't place them in the top 10"[/i]
Oh come on.....with over 600 retail outlets.....they aren't even in the Top 100!
(http://www.calspas.com/hot_tubs/images/tour/Cal_Spas_Tour_building.jpg)
(http://www.calspas.com/press/images/20050804.jpg)
(http://www.calspas.com/press/images/20071102_LATimes.jpg)
(http://www.calspas.com/press/images/20040615_calspas.gif)
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Oh come on.....with over 600 retail outlets.....they aren't even in the Top 100!
OK, with 600 outlets (was that pre 2008?) and their new manufacturing facility I guess I'd have to admit that they belong in the top 100! :)
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Stick with the Classic series when dealing with Cal. The Tropical the Pacifica and Atlantic would be the only ones id recommend. Dont order a marble acrylic, only granite type from Cal. If your looking at the lower lines be prepared for issues since the components used are much cheaper than on the Classic series. This comes from experience selling & servicing Cals 2 yrs ago.
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"the lower lines be prepared for issues"
Pathfinder are there any "issues with the lower end" of
the brands you now sell or are they all perfect?
OK, with 600 outlets (was that pre 2008?)
Yeah I think they've close 599 of them because the
economic slowdown has only affected CalSpas and
not a single other tub maker.
::)
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Not sure what model Cal this is, but my cousin loves his...it is on his deck overlooking the Indian River in lower Delaware. So now we have at least 2..count em 2 happy CalSpa owners ;)
(http://img384.imageshack.us/img384/3834/p7210020ss8.th.jpg) (http://img384.imageshack.us/my.php?image=p7210020ss8.jpg)
Zep loves his tub and is telling everyone FIRST HAND that he has had great dealer support and no problems. Benny has a Thermospa and is loving it, with great company support. Although this seems to fly in the face of what others are saying, I think it is important to note....even the so called "best tubs" (or anything for that matter) can have problems. When a compay recognizes trends and does something about it..then that is a good thing.
I love Zep's set up..it is beautiful and it's pretty obvious that he enjoys his tub. He (Cal)was the first with the stone surround and other companies followed suit when they saw a good thing. ;)..
and I might be wrong about who was first, but Zep had the first one that I remember posted on this forum..so I assume Cal was the innovator :)
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Zep, you do have a beautiful set up and obviously a keen sense of style. (By all of your postings, you are single...and obviously have a nice bachelor pad!)
We looked at Cal spas in our early days, but didn't like the high sides on the seats and the way our legs hit them. We never did wet test.
We were leary of the warranty issues that were discussed in the past on the forum, I won't lie. But, it seems Cal has hopefully gotten a handle on it.
Just my $0.02 worth... :D
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I have stated this before you can buy the best of the best and still have problems or you can buy the cheapest of the cheapest and never have an issue. But here is how I look at it: A dealer who sells let's say Hot Spring or Marquis and he sales 100 a year he may have some type of issue with maybe 5 of them within the first year. The guy who is selling cheap spas (not the price) let's say he sells Cal and does a 100 a year, he most likely will be out fixing 30-40 of those in the first year.
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Thanks Bonibelle and "WeWanna"....yes I do love my CalSpas tub. It's been a great tub and great service from my CalSpas dealer.
And if you notice I stand up for other brands other than Cal that are the "non-favored brands" on this message board as well. I never start it, but feel the need to offer a different perpective from a REAL CAL SPA OWNER, not someone "thats never owned a Cal", "that sells another brand", or "heard from so & so", or "I think I read somewhere " or "was told by someone awhile back", "heard a few years ago" about CalSpas. Yeah Pathfinder used to sell Cal, ok so thats one. Ummm but when I am "one" oh boy that doesnt mean much. I actually surprised someone hasnt signed up under some fake alias pretending to be a disgruntled Cal owner. So the bashers can say "see".
::)
The vast majority of posters/dealers/owners in here are great, helpful, and informative people.. Like Terminator, he is no Cal fan, but he doesn't bash Cal, he SELLS his own brand.
It just gets old the constant need for certain posters/dealers to bash the other brands. Some of them are very good at sticking a knife in your gut and all with a nice smiley face. Like all the BS a few days ago about Arctic Spas "not being able to come up with any money". That was all speculation and attempts to portray Arctic in the worst possible way.
Obviously no brands are perfect. It's almost amusing to watch the "everythings going to be ok squad" rush to the scene when a favored brand owner is complaining about some brand new favored brand tub with problems". Unless you are one of the "favored brands" almost every single post will have at least a subtle dig or attempt to assume the very worst. Like Gary on here today actually claiming CalSpas may have up to a 40% failure rate. Yeah 40 out of every 100 are failures.
::)
Of course CalSpas will just keeping building brand spanking new multi-million dollar facilities, employeeing hundreds of people, having hundreds of retail outlets and guys mostly living paycheck to paycheck can continue to bash a success story. No surprise
there's lots of people in Dallas that bash Jerry Jones....the owner of The Dallas Cowboys..they say "he's an idiot"..."doesnt know what he doing"...uh ok sure....but whose got three Super Bowl rings, is building a new billion dollar stadium, and owns an entity worth hundreds of millions? It's not the Jerry Jones bashers.
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Windy get the same crap, Zep....I think what is irritating is that negative comments translate to "you made a bad judgment, you made a lousy investment".. That is why we all take it personally when someone attacks what we have and what we deemed to be perfect for us. It makes it hard for consumers looking for information to sort through all of it.
I know when I was first looking for a tub, someone on here told me if it didn't have a circ pump, it wasn't worth looking at. Well I found my Epic, and loved it..but was so hung up on the fact that it didn't have a dang circ pump that I almost walked away...that would have really been a mistake :(. This site is wonderful for gathering information, but it's tough to sort through opinions when you don't know the background of the posters. :-/
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Very well said Zep!! I couldnt have said it any better. You brought up lots of great points in that last response!! I give you props for being just about the only Cal Spa owner here, and you always do a good job respodning when that company is brought up, whether it be good or bad.
In regards to Jerry Jones, I only wish we had a GM and owner like him for the KC Chiefs. I cant stand King Carl Peterson! I am not a huge fan of JJ either, but had has done very well for the Cowgirls......, I mean boys! ;)
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Just to clarify..I think Jerry Jones is and idiot...based on fact....he took TO...just based on fact, Zep ;D ;D ;)
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WOW!! You go wit' yer bad self, Zep!! ;)
I have noticed Cal bashing, and Master spas bashed as well. Hey, Saved by Grace has a great Jacuzzi, famously known brand, and has had trouble. Just unlucky, and to ice the cake, a crap dealer with zippo support. It still wouldn't sway me at this point from buying a Jacuzzi if I wanted one, since we did wet test a 470.
And, for the record, Zep, you are one of the more fair and least opinionated posters here.
Now, just picture Holly in your Cal, and the anger will melt away... ;)
To each his own--
Chrisi--just gonna keep chilllin' listening to Stevie ray Vaughan, my personal fave Texan 8-)
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to assume the very worst. Like Gary on here today actually claiming CalSpas may have up to a 40% failure rate. Yeah 40 out of every 100 are failures.
::)
[/quote
I was only making an example and just having a little fun at Cal's expense. I have been on the service end for 20 years and even though they have improved it will take a long time to dig out of the hole they have with me.
They shafted me on warranty work new and old owner's so the only ones I will touch are the ones out of warranty or if I get paid by the spa owner.
If you are happy with your tub that is all that matters.
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Just to clarify..I think Jerry Jones is and idiot...based on fact....he took TO...just based on fact, Zep ;D ;D ;)
And now he's taken "Pacman" Jones! Is he following in the footsteps of Al Davis? ;) ;)
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Like Gary on here today actually claiming CalSpas may have up to a 40% failure rate. Yeah 40 out of every 100 are failures.
I didn't think Gary was actually trying say that was the actual number.
If the "best" company has a 95% customer satisfaction (hypothetically speaking) and a "lesser" company only has 85% that difference is statistically significant. It is VERY significant in fact yet both with have a vast majority of their customers happy. The thing is 85 of 100 people owning that "lesser" spa brand will say "not true that they are lesser, I love mine". At the same time you can find someone with that "better" spa brand who may have had issues who might say "everyone says they're great but mine has been a headache so I wonder if that is just hype".
Its great when someone owns a certain brand and loves it but it say VERY little about the brand overall. The proof is in how it treats the masses.
That's what I took Gary's post to mean.
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Thanks people!
I guess I needed to vent.
Hey I know Cal may not be the Mercedes of the spa world,
but I dont think they are the Yugo either.
Any way you guys are great, helpful and funny too.
Oh and btw we all know football starts next month!
So.....
(http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y273/ItsZep/Cowboys/tn_345706397.gif)
(http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y273/ItsZep/Cowboys/Cowgirls3.jpg)
(http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y273/ItsZep/Cowboys/Owens-2.gif)
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(http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y273/ItsZep/Cowboys/tn_345706397.gif)
(http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y273/ItsZep/Cowboys/Cowgirls3.jpg)
Forget the Cowboys. Its the Cowgirls they have that impress me!!
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"the Cowgirls..... impress me!! "
Spatech...we now agree on something! ;)
(http://i298.photobucket.com/albums/mm262/KaraIblis/dallas-cowboys-cheerleader.jpg)
BTW....I am helping a young girl try to make the squad!
Wow the tryouts... 500 beautiful young girls!
My neck still has whiplash!
:'(
(http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y273/ItsZep/Parties2008/0b713642-1-1-1-1.jpg)
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BTW....I am helping a young girl try to make the squad!
Wow the tryouts... 500 beautiful young girls!
My neck still has whiplash!
:'(
I can hear it now:
"You want to be a Cowgirl? What a coincidence, I have connections with Cowboy management. Why don't you come on over to my hot tub tonight and we can discuss what I might be able to do for you! BTW, I've got stone siding on my spa!!". ;D
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I have seen the pros and cons of Cal Spas first hand, I myself would not hesitate to sell Cal again as I have hundreds of happy customers who own them and love them. I too keep hearing this "a few years back" and "not long ago". Lets talk about today, in this industry we have many brands who use to be great quality who make poor decisions and cut corners to cut cost and rely on their past good years to get them by today. I am telling you that some of the top touted spas today are outright junk. I put a couple of them way below that of the Cal. I will tell you this, Cal is a sturdy heavy duty solid spa. Recently I have witnessed some of the most foolish of engineering mistakes by a couple manufacturers.
When shopping for a spa, potential customers also look for features and benefits. Cal offers a full line of both and like every other brand out there they tell a story. The main problem I see is many spa brands telling a story that is no longer the technology they use in their line up. A specific is flow vs pressure 2 brands that come to mind use to use a higher flow jet in every model, today they are using a jet that is more pressure than flow, yet they tell the same old story of high flow.
Of course we could settle all of this and just get them into a D1 8-)
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"Now, just picture Holly in your Cal, and the anger will melt away.." [/b]
WeWanna.....OMG.....oh if i was only still in my 20's/30's! :'(
I ammmmmm melting!
(http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y273/ItsZep/Hot%20Tub/DSC00025-1-1.jpg)
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Zep is in a happy place now-- ;)
Back to football, I know women's football is relatively unheard of, but how about the Pittsburgh Passion!! Undefeated again!!
http://www.pittsburghpassion.com/
My sister Jen used to play, but since a nasty concussion or two, she coaches the defensive line now. She has kids to take care of and chose not to continue to play.
[size=20]GO PASSION!![/size]
Then, the Steelers will start training...
But what are they doing to my Pens??!!!!! :'(
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ok WeWanna......now somebody went and told Holly we were talking about her.
Terminator?
she contacted me on MySpace last night and now she wants her Escalade!
(http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y273/ItsZep/Hot%20Tub/DSC03258.jpg)
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Tell Holly to call me on Saturday, Zep. I need her to work at the Balloon Race on July 11 and 12 and the number I have for her is no longer good.
Thanks!
Term
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I'll let her know Term....also check your private messages.
I sent you the number I have for her.
Is that the number you have?
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This thread seems to have wandered off into more interesting imagery... :)
Since the original question was "Where does Cal Spas stack up?", I offer the following. In the test conducted by the Alberta Research Council, a Cal Spas Atlantic showed the highest specific power consumption out of the eight spas tested. In the room temperature (20C) test, it used 50% more power than the next worst spa (A Coast Spas Lanai Silver). In the cold temperature (-12C) test, it used over twice as much power as the Lanai.
This is neither "brand bashing" nor opinion but objective fact. In fairness, I draw your attention to another fact, which is that this testing was conducted seven years ago, and it is possible that both Coast and Cal have made significant changes to the way they construct and/or insulate their products to improve their energy efficiency (Arctic hasn't changed - we got it right the first time ::) ).
Comments?
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(Arctic hasn't changed - we got it right the first time ::)
well aren't we cocky.... ::)
see Bonibelle/WeWanna here I was defending Arctic Spas and this guy comes in talking trash.
Another "well several years ago....blah blah"
BTW Tommy2Tone can you post a source/url of the study I'd like to look over
it and see if you are "cherry picking" as well as get a feel for whether there
is any bias.
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"the Cowgirls..... impress me!! "
Spatech...we now agree on something! ;)
(http://i298.photobucket.com/albums/mm262/KaraIblis/dallas-cowboys-cheerleader.jpg)
BTW....I am helping a young girl try to make the squad!
Wow the tryouts... 500 beautiful young girls!
My neck still has whiplash!
:'(
(http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y273/ItsZep/Parties2008/0b713642-1-1-1-1.jpg)
Zep, are you helping her with the choreography or just moral support? Do you work for the Cowboys?
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Zep,
As one of the other "much maligned spa owners" I feel I should add that a great dealer can make a P.O.S. spa (no Cal reference) seem like a Lexus and a P.O.S. dealer can make the best spa seem like a Yugo. There are a lot of lesser known spas out there that are very good just like every other product on the market.
Now about those Cowboys :P If it wasn't for the cheerleaders I wouldn't pay an ounce of attention to them except for when the Lions are kicking thier butts (strange but they seem to do it often ;))
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"Zep, are you helping her with the choreography or just moral support? Do you work for the Cowboys?"[/b]
Gombo Jumbo.....no i don't work for the Cowboys.....I wish.....then maybe I could score
some free tickets in the new stadium opening next year.
(http://www.maurybrown.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/05/new_cowboys_faciility_thumb.jpg)
New Cowboy Stadium: Opens Fall '09 - Super Bowl '11
Unfortunately I never had any kidos and she's a nice, sweet, pretty girl from a family of nine...yes
count 'em....nine children......and I just like mentoring her. I put her in a dance school thats run
by the Dallas Mavericks and now next weekend she is going to try out for the Mav Dancers team.
I guess one way or another she hopefully can make one of the teams. She is only 18, just graduated
HS this month, so she needs more polish. As you can see she has wanted to be a Dallas Cowboys
Cheerleader for a very long time. She's actually alot prettier than the pic, so if she keeps workin hard...
dance class twice a day...she has a shot. Her goal is the Cowboys, but she'll take the Mav Dancer as a
2nd choice. I told her one day when she walks down the Texas Stadium tunnel wearing the Dallas
Cowboys Cheerleader uniform there will be two grown men (her Dad & I) sitting in the stadium
cheering like crazy....with tears rolling down our cheeks..... looking silly as hell!
;D :'( :)
Then:
(http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y273/ItsZep/Friday%20Girl/l_0803cbb16749dde5b24bfbd5b3e78e14.jpg)
Now:
(http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y273/ItsZep/Friday%20Girl/l_362857a0712c773e5571778a8e5b92-1.jpg)
(http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y273/ItsZep/Cowboys/DallasCowboyCheerleader.jpg)
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So, how 'bout them Cal Spas?
8-)
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So, how 'bout them Cal Spas?
8-)
LOL
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(Arctic hasn't changed - we got it right the first time ::)
well aren't we cocky.... ::)
see Bonibelle/WeWanna here I was defending Arctic Spas and this guy comes in talking trash.
Another "well several years ago....blah blah"
BTW Tommy2Tone can you post a source/url of the study I'd like to look over
it and see if you are "cherry picking" as well as get a feel for whether there
is any bias.
Hey all, I will try to remain neutral, since I am looking at Arctic!! But, Zep, since you are the only (apparent) Cal owner, I guess you could steer this thread whatever way you want!! Just glad I could help you think happy thoughts!! ;D
Zep, nice ride, it that Your Escalade in the background??
Speaking of neutral, since I am a HUGE Steelers fan, I won't comment on the Cowboys!!!
[size=20]GO STEELERS!! ;D ;D[/size]
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Zep,
Now about those Cowboys :P If it wasn't for the cheerleaders I wouldn't pay an ounce of attention to them except for when the Lions are kicking thier butts (strange but they seem to do it often ;))
;D ;D ;D ;D
Gotta side with the Canadian one here!!! (even though the Pens lost to Wings, oh well, over it now, better team won!)
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"Zep, nice ride, it that Your Escalade in the background??"[/i]
WaWanna....No....thats what Holly wants
I jokingly said the first time I saw Holly "all that girl needs to do
is move to Dallas, behave, and she'll be drivin an Escalade."
I love Escalades, but I love my SUV too!
(http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y273/ItsZep/Lexus%20GX470/GX470Rules-1.jpg)
"Speaking of neutral, since I am a HUGE Steelers fan, I won't comment on the Cowboys!!!" [/b]
The Steelers?
Oh NO!!!!!
We still owe ya one.
When we beat the Steelers in the '96 Super Bowl
The first thing I did after the game ended on the cold Jan night
was run out into my front yard point up to heaven
and scream "DAD, DAD...WE FINALLY GOT THOSE STEELERS!"
My Dad & I never fully recovered from those 2 losses to Pittsburgh in the Super Bowls in the 70's.
Even today it makes me ill to watch those two games.
Hopefully we'll even the head to head Super Bowl score soon!
;)
(http://www.supernfl.com/SuperBowl/images/sb13.gif)
(Jackie Smith drops sure touchdown pass in Super Bowl vs. Steelers
Dallas settles for a field goal in a game it loses by four points)
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This thread seems to have wandered off into more interesting imagery... :)
Since the original question was "Where does Cal Spas stack up?", I offer the following. In the test conducted by the Alberta Research Council, a Cal Spas Atlantic showed the highest specific power consumption out of the eight spas tested. In the room temperature (20C) test, it used 50% more power than the next worst spa (A Coast Spas Lanai Silver). In the cold temperature (-12C) test, it used over twice as much power as the Lanai.
This is neither "brand bashing" nor opinion but objective fact. In fairness, I draw your attention to another fact, which is that this testing was conducted seven years ago, and it is possible that both Coast and Cal have made significant changes to the way they construct and/or insulate their products to improve their energy efficiency (Arctic hasn't changed - we got it right the first time ::) ).
Comments?
While I'd never recommend, sell or own a Cal Spa, nor make comment to the actual efficiency of Cal or Arctic, I will point out something that Cal DOES have.
A simple check of the California Energy Commission’s appliance data base shows that Cal Spas already has 45 specific Cal Spa models certified by The State of California as energy efficient and in compliance with the states Title 20 requirements.
The data base includes over 200 approved spa models from many of the major (and some minor) manufactures nationwide.
There are no Arctic spas on this list.
Maybe Arctic WILL need to change.
(As mentioned, I give no opinion to the quality, workmanship, material, energy efficiency of, or speak to the intent of Arctic’s ability or willingness to adhere to the new hot tub energy efficiency laws within the state of California. I simply point out that, as of an hour ago, no Arctic product has been placed on the approved list)
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"Zep, nice ride, it that Your Escalade in the background??"[/i]
WaWanna....No....thats what Holly wants
I jokingly said the first time I saw Holly "all that girl needs to do
is move to Dallas, behave, and she'll be drivin an Escalade."
I love Escalades, but I love my SUV too!
(http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y273/ItsZep/Lexus%20GX470/GX470Rules-1.jpg)
"Speaking of neutral, since I am a HUGE Steelers fan, I won't comment on the Cowboys!!!" [/b]
The Steelers?
Oh NO!!!!!
We still owe ya one.
When we beat the Steelers in the '96 Super Bowl
The first thing I did after the game ended on the cold Jan night
was run out into my front yard point up to heaven
and scream "DAD, DAD...WE FINALLY GOT THOSE STEELERS!"
My Dad & I never fully recovered from those 2 losses to Pittsburgh in the Super Bowls in the 70's.
Even today it makes me ill to watch those two games.
Hopefully we'll even the head to head Super Bowl score soon!
;)
(http://www.supernfl.com/SuperBowl/images/sb13.gif)
(Jackie Smith drops sure touchdown pass in Super Bowl vs. Steelers
Dallas settles for a field goal in a game it loses by four points)
I guess time will tell. Hey, maybe my dad can chill with your dad in heaven with a cold Iron City Beer and watch it all!!
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Hey all, I will try to remain neutral, since I am looking at Arctic!! But, Zep, since you are the only (apparent) Cal owner, I guess you could steer this thread whatever way you want!! Just glad I could help you think happy thoughts!! ;D
Zep, nice ride, it that Your Escalade in the background??
Speaking of neutral, since I am a HUGE Steelers fan, I won't comment on the Cowboys!!!
[size=20]GO STEELERS!! ;D ;D[/size]
Lots of great info coming out here, I'll give Cal Spas a try in the wet test to see how it goes. Trying Hotspring and D1 tomorrow.
[size=22]GO CHARGERS!!![/size]
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Who?
(http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/graphics/CR612.jpg)
8-)
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Lots of great info coming out here, I'll give Cal Spas a try in the wet test to see how it goes. Trying Hotspring and D1 tomorrow.
[size=22]GO CHARGERS!!![/size]
[size=20]San Di-egooo... "in German means a Whale's @%$&*!!!" insuring them of a Super bowl title.[/size]
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Who?
(http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/graphics/CR612.jpg)
8-)
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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A simple check of the California Energy Commission’s appliance data base shows that Cal Spas already has 45 specific Cal Spa models certified ...
That seems to support my guess that Cal may have improved their products since the ARC test. If so, good for them!
As for Arctic not being there, there were NO Canadian manufacturers on the list as of June 3, 2008. That doesn't mean that Arctic or the other Canadian-made spas can't or don't meet the CEC standards. It seems reasonable that products designed for the Canadian climate should be able to meet standards for balmy California. But we'll see.
According to our R&D guys, our hypothermic chamber has been CEC approved so we are now a certified CEC test center. I'm not sure what progress we have made on the testing but next time I'm over at the lab I'll ask.
Since we do export to California, we will need to meet those standards. Please keep an eye on the CEC list for future developments.
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well aren't we cocky.... ::).
When ya got it.... ;D
Here's the link: http://www.arcticspas.com/index.php/en/custom_content/12/12/ but please, head for Beating a Dead Horse and search for "ARC" or "Arctic study" and review the months of debate.
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That seems to support my guess that Cal may have improved their products since the ARC test. If so, good for them!
As for Arctic not being there, there were NO Canadian manufacturers on the list as of June 3, 2008. That doesn't mean that Arctic or the other Canadian-made spas can't or don't meet the CEC standards. It seems reasonable that products designed for the Canadian climate should be able to meet standards for balmy California. But we'll see.
According to our R&D guys, our hypothermic chamber has been CEC approved so we are now a certified CEC test center. I'm not sure what progress we have made on the testing but next time I'm over at the lab I'll ask.
Since we do export to California, we will need to meet those standards. Please keep an eye on the CEC list for future developments.
Tom,
Thanks for the input.
I have no doubt that there are many brands of spas that are not on the CEC list that will, at some point, be added to the list and be given approved status. There are many big players not on the list including Sundance, Jacuzzi, Coleman, etc.
Perhaps Arctic will be on that list, maybe not.
My point is that a seven year old study, in light of the new CEC standards, may not be current or relative.
From a consumers stand point, I think the CEC standards and approval list are current and relative and offer 3 real nice benefits.
1) A spa buyer is now assured that his/her spa will be energy efficient and not cost an arm and leg to run.
2) The approval list helps make sense of all the shopping "clutter" a potential buyer may hear.
Since my staff and I have been talking to potential buyers about the CEC and Title 20, we've had our non CEC approved competition offer up sales gems like "Oh yeah, we are approved too, we're really big on energy efficiency" or "Well, we use the same brand of heaters as D1 and the same pumps as Bullfrog, so, in a round about way, we are approved."
No disrespect intended, Tom, but I have to count "We are made in Canada so surely we have to be energy efficient" as that same sales "clutter" we hear. I suspect a reasonable consumer, when informed of the CEC standards would feel the same.
3) I think a quick study of the CEC approved list might give a consumer some peace of mind knowing they are dealing with a brand that was willing to spend the time, money and effort to adhere to these regulations. You mention that Arctic exports to California and will need to meet the CEC standards, yet Cal Spas, who you suggest didn’t score as well as Arctic on some 7 year old study (and there by suggesting that they may not be as energy efficient) has had some spa models approved by the CEC for over 2 years.
As of today, many many manufactures have not been approved, yet, many have been approved for years. If asked, as a consumer knowing nothing of the industry, which company I'd be more comfortable with, I'd have to pick the company who did the work years ago. Right or wrong, It gives a sense of stability and forward thinking.
Lastly. You'd mentioned before, and mention now, that parts of Arctic’s facility have been CEC certified.
How does that work? Does the California Energy Commission come to your facility and inspect it?
Why would a Canadian Spa factory need to be CEC certified?
When did they certify it?
Why would you have a facility approved by the CEC yet not have your spas CEC approved?
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A short follow up.
Those manufactures with models on the CEC Title 20 approved list are:
Artesian Spas, Bullfrog International, Cal Spas, Clearwater Spas, Dimension One Spas, Master Spas Inc., Softub Inc., Spa Manufacture, Inc., ThermoSpas, Inc., Watkins Manufacturing Company (every single HSS & Caldera brand spa model are on the list)
As you can see, it is a rather short list.
Tom is correct when he points out that there are no Canadian brands on the list.
Also remarkable is that the list indicates if the tub model is fully foam insulated or not. There is not a single non-fully foamed spa on the list as well.
Perhaps this will help with the FF vs TP debate.
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A short follow up.
Those manufactures with models on the CEC Title 20 approved list are:
Artesian Spas, Bullfrog International, Cal Spas, Clearwater Spas, Dimension One Spas, Master Spas Inc., Softub Inc., Spa Manufacture, Inc., ThermoSpas, Inc., Watkins Manufacturing Company (every single HSS & Caldera brand spa model are on the list)
As you can see, it is a rather short list.
Tom is correct when he points out that there are no Canadian brands on the list.
Also remarkable is that the list indicates if the tub model is fully foam insulated or not. [glow]There is not a single non-fully foamed spa on the list as well.[/glow][glow]Perhaps this will help with the FF vs TP debate.[/glow]
I think maybe you misread the report.
It doesn’t say that spa's are Full Foamed. It reads, “Spa Enclosure Fully Insulated". That doesn’t have to mean FF. I know that Clearwater and Softubs are not FF spas, same as Thermospas. Last I checked Masters Spas were not FF either, or offered an option that was not FF.
In my opinion, this had nothing to do with the debate of FF vs. TP, but after seeing all of those TP spas on this Gospel California report, maybe it will start giving some TP spas credibility. ;D ;D
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A short follow up.
Those manufactures with models on the CEC Title 20 approved list are:
Artesian Spas, Bullfrog International, Cal Spas, Clearwater Spas, Dimension One Spas, Master Spas Inc., Softub Inc., Spa Manufacture, Inc., ThermoSpas, Inc., Watkins Manufacturing Company (every single HSS & Caldera brand spa model are on the list)
As you can see, it is a rather short list.
Tom is correct when he points out that there are no Canadian brands on the list.
Also remarkable is that the list indicates if the tub model is fully foam insulated or not. [glow]There is not a single non-fully foamed spa on the list as well.[/glow][glow]Perhaps this will help with the FF vs TP debate.[/glow]
I think maybe you misread the report.
It doesn’t say that spa's are Full Foamed. It reads, “Spa Enclosure Fully Insulated". That doesn’t have to mean FF. I know that Clearwater and Softubs are not FF spas, same as Thermospas. Last I checked Masters Spas were not FF either, or offered an option that was not FF.
In my opinion, this had nothing to do with the debate of FF vs. TP, but after seeing all of those TP spas on this Gospel California report, maybe it will start giving some TP spas credibility. ;D ;D
I'd be hard pressed to believe that "Spa Enclosure Fully Insulated” could mean anything but "Spa Enclosure Fully Insulated". Perhaps with the correct amount of spin, fully insulated can mean partially insulated, TP insulated or non-insulated. I'll E Mail the CEC and see if they can help with the definition.
Perhaps another explanation as to why there are spas on the list that are traditionally know as non-full foam insulated is that the manufactures made, submitted and tested tubs that were in fact full foamed. I have no knowledge of this so it is just a guess.
Just for clarification, this is no "Gospel California Report". Like it or not, it is soon to be the law of the land in California and if the predictions are correct, dozens of other states across the county in the near future.
By the way, I am a Softub Dealer and there is nothing about the tub that is TP. It is as fully foamed as any tub can be.
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That may be the case on Softub. I havent see one in about ten years
I know for a fact that ALL Thermospas are TP, as well as Clearwater spas, fwiw!! ;D
Also, I have nothing against this report, as I think it is a good thing. I just called it a Gospel report as you are acting like that is what it is.
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By the way, I am a Softub Dealer and there is nothing about the tub that is TP. It is as fully foamed as any tub can be.
I was a Softub dealer many years ago. In fact, I was one of the first Softub dealers north of Los Angeles as the company got it's feet under it.
The tubs are about five or six inches thick, and are made of foam. The plumbing is embedded in that foam, so the plumbing only benefits from about an inch or two of insulation from the outside. However, that never seemed to be a point of any great heat loss when I was running them.
Most FF tubs have quite a bit more foam insulation than that, but in the various discussions I have had with engineers and experts in insulation I have found that 3 to 4 inches seems to be the point of diminishing return - that is, more foam doesn't make enough difference by itself to be worth bothering with. I think that is why Arctic tubs seem to do well - they have what looks to be around four inches on the sides, and that or more on the bottom. I know they have an air gap all around the back of the tub, but they act more like a FF tub with a heat recycling advantage.
I will be interested to see how Softub deals with the CEC requirements, since they use the jet pump to heat. That means that the jet pump comes on full blast every time the thermostat calls for heat.
As a current dealer, how do your customers find the new Softubs to compare in energy consumption to a more conventional full foam tub? I know the comparison is hardly fair given the fact that not all FF tubs are going to be equal, but generally speaking, are you Softub customers happy with the energy bills they get after having the tub awhile? Do you have anyone who replaced an old hard tub for a Softub?
8-)
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Chas,
Thanks for the reply. Can I ask what you were talking about when you said that Arctic Spas have an air gap all around the back of the tub. :-?
Not sure what you meant by that.
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Just for clarification, this is no "Gospel California Report". Like it or not, it is soon to be the law of the land in California and if the predictions are correct, dozens of other states across the county in the near future.
After seeing the list my reaction is just being on the list doesn't mean you're equal to the others on that same list. There are a few brands there that I would avoid in part because I don't trust their energy efficiency in the first place. I'm not sure if it’s a matter of self reporting accuracy or maybe the standard isn't so tough in initially but I also think this is a great starting point.
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Hey Chas,
Our Softub policy is such that if a client buys a Softub and decides within 90 days that he/she wants a Caldera, we will buy the Softub back for what they paid for it and credit that amount towards the Caldera purchase.
So far it is a policy that has worked well.
If it seems I am a little overly sensitive with some of the things I hear/see in this forum, please forgive.
We just returned from a county fair and lived through the rough and tumble spa wars that sometimes break out at a fair. Every spa company out there was the "biggest, oldest, strongest best warranted most energy efficient spa in the entire universe".
The team at Phoenix displayed a swim spa that was 3200 gallons. The spa was as hollow as a chocolate Easter bunny. They quoted potential buyers an energy consumption of $32.00 a month. Sad part is that I'm sure some buyers believed them.
It was day after day of gross exaggeration, unsubstantiated superiority and complete silliness. One client asked me if it was true that a blue hot tub was more energy efficient then a green one.
After 20 years in the industry so much has changed. At the same time, so little has changed.
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Chas,
Thanks for the reply. Can I ask what you were talking about when you said that Arctic Spas have an air gap all around the back of the tub. :-?
Not sure what you meant by that.
(http://www.arcticspas.com/images/advantages/heatlock.jpg
)
This is from the Arctic web site - and it shows how they have a very thick layer of foam. They just don't put the foam on the back of the shell, nor do they encapsulate the plumbing with foam. This is for several reasons from what I have read on the Arctic site as well as what Tom has posted here -
Better access to plumbing to keep a minor repair minor, allows heat transfer from equipment to water, and protects the equipment in the event of a power outage. How did I do??
8-)
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After seeing the list my reaction is just being on the list doesn't mean you're equal to the others on that same list. There are a few brands there that I would avoid in part because I don't trust their energy efficiency in the first place. I'm not sure if it’s a matter of self reporting accuracy or maybe the standard isn't so tough in initially but I also think this is a great starting point.
I agree T U O. Even within the list, some spas have higher R ratings and some have lower. Same goes for the cover. All things are not equal. While I would not have every spa listed, I also would never have a spa that was NOT on list.
I am all for this type of 3rd party energy approval (of course every tub I sell is approved)
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Hey Chas,
Our Softub policy is such that if a client buys a Softub and decides within 90 days that he/she wants a Caldera, we will buy the Softub back for what they paid for it and credit that amount towards the Caldera purchase.
So far it is a policy that has worked well.
If it seems I am a little overly sensitive with some of the things I hear/see in this forum, please forgive.
Your posts seem fine to me. Thanks for checkin' though, and thanks for the info on the trade-in policy.
As far as the Fair - I did a home show back in March. It was the first one I have done in over a decade. And most likely the last one. Same thing happened to us. We sold two tubs. I don't think I paid for the gas it took to get the tubs on site, let alone space rent, advertising, rent-a-shark (we may have had some of the same guys), Motel rooms, etc.
8-)
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You did great!! I just completly misunderstood what you were talking about, but I clearly understand now. It's the Monday after the Fourth of July. Still a little foggy in the head after the holiday weekend!! ::) ::)
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I agree T U O. Even within the list, some spas have higher R ratings and some have lower. Same goes for the cover. All things are not equal. While I would not have every spa listed, I also would never have a spa that was NOT on list.
I am all for this type of 3rd party energy approval (of course every tub I sell is approved)
That’s fine and dandy James that you wouldn't buy a spa that isn’t on that list, but that is clearly just your opinion. But, just so customers know, just because a spa is on that list doesn't mean they are a quality built spa. Nor does it mean that if a spa isn't on that list that it isn’t a quality built spa. I am sure that works well for you in your sales tactics as the spas you sell are on the list, but just because a spa is included in this list doesn’t mean they are a top tier spa. That is just my opinion. There are several spas on the list that you refer to that people on here all day long warn customers to stay away from, so I don't know that you should be preaching that if a spa isn’t on this list, it isn’t a good one. I know you didn't say that word for word, but that is what you are implying.
This is what I mean when you refer to this as Gospel. I know it means a lot to you, and it is a good thing, but after reading the list, I am not so sure about it.
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That’s fine and dandy James that you wouldn't buy a spa that isn’t on that list, but that is clearly just your opinion. But, just so customers know, just because a spa is on that list doesn't mean they are a quality built spa. Nor does it mean that if a spa isn't on that list that it isn’t a quality built spa. I am sure that works well for you in your sales tactics as the spas you sell are on the list, but just because a spa is included in this list doesn’t mean they are a top tier spa. That is just my opinion. There are several spas on the list that you refer to that people on here all day long warn customers to stay away from, so I don't know that you should be preaching that if a spa isn’t on this list, it isn’t a good one. I know you didn't say that word for word, but that is what you are implying.
This is what I mean when you refer to this as Gospel. I know it means a lot to you, and it is a good thing, but after reading the list, I am not so sure about it.
However, when it does become the law of our land, California, if a spa is not on the list it will be illegal to deliver that spa in CA. It does not rank quality, simply a self reported measure of energy consumption under certain circumstances.
The enforcement is going to be interesting.
1st question is what are they going to do about all the spas not on the list sold by valid CA manufacturers and dealers.
2nd question is what are they going to do about the out of state Internet sales organizations.
3rd issue is that I am aware of is they are going to wait for consumers to complain about something on the list that does not perform as expected. Then what?
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That’s fine and dandy James that you wouldn't buy a spa that isn’t on that list, but that is clearly just your opinion. But, just so customers know, just because a spa is on that list doesn't mean they are a quality built spa. Nor does it mean that if a spa isn't on that list that it isn’t a quality built spa. I am sure that works well for you in your sales tactics as the spas you sell are on the list, but just because a spa is included in this list doesn’t mean they are a top tier spa. That is just my opinion. There are several spas on the list that you refer to that people on here all day long warn customers to stay away from, so I don't know that you should be preaching that if a spa isn’t on this list, it isn’t a good one. I know you didn't say that word for word, but that is what you are implying.
This is what I mean when you refer to this as Gospel. I know it means a lot to you, and it is a good thing, but after reading the list, I am not so sure about it.
In the very 1st sentence of my very 1st response to this thread I wrote "While I'd never recommend, sell or own a Cal Spa, nor make comment to the actual efficiency of Cal or Arctic, I will point out something that Cal DOES have. "
I went on to explain how Cal was CEC certified while Arctic was not.
Tom had suggested with the use of a 7 year old study that Arctic was more energy efficient than a Cal Spa. Despite the good, bad or ugly of Cal, we don’t really know if that’s true. I suggest the CEC Title 20 list might be a better indication of the work Cal has done then what that old report might suggest.
I hope no one took this as a recommendation of Cal Spas.
And I agree with you. The list as it stands today is a very short list and I can only assume many of the long lasting, well built brands that are missing from the list will very shortly be added to it.
My question to the Sundance’s, Jacuzzis, Marquees and others is why have they not been certified yet?
As a shopper and consumer, that is the question I’d ask myself.
Why have some brands met this standard while others have not met it?
Are they unable to meet the standards or have they not had them tested?
If not tested, why not?
There has to be a reason.
The reality of this state mandate is that regardless of any manufactures understanding or agreement with it, it is very shortly going to be an enforceable requirement from the state and a tub will have to be certified in order to be sold in the state.
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James, HTD or Chas,
Do you know when this officially goes into effect in the state of California as law??
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James, HTD or Chas,
Do you know when this officially goes into effect in the state of California as law??
From an article in Pool & Spa News dated 2/15/08 written by Jim Lakely:
The CEC is serious about pulling the plug on what has amounted to be a grace period for the industry, stated Gary Fernstrom, senior program engineer at Pacific Gas & Electric's headquarters in San Francisco.
"Between the middle of this year and the end of the year, the hammer will fall" Fernstrom Said. “At this point, manufactures need to get involved.... so we can reach some sort of agreement, or the CEC is going to enforce the original (Title 20) regulation"
Enforcing Title 20 would leave a number of spa manufactures out of the California market place. Moreover, other states are lining up behind the new energy efficiency mandates. Oregon, for one, will require hot tubs to meet California's standards on Sept 1, 2009.
This is the future of our spa indusrty folks, like it or not.
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First of all, once the Arctic spa line is finally certified the proof will be in the pudding that they are just as efficient, if not more than many already tested. And I would argue that the results will be impressive. Until then I suppose many can say they arent approved by a certain agency and arent efficient yada, yada, yada. Keep in mind that just because a spa line isnt approved on the list it doesnt mean that the spa line has been denied or even tested yet. These things take time and I would imagine coming from Canada does nothing but delay the process.
I would like to ask since James keeps bringing up the point that the Arctic study is seven years old, once a spa or model passes the testing, are they retested every year to be up to James standards of a proper test? Or, once they pass the test is it end of story?
Again their isnt much I can say that would prove Arctics are as efficient since they havent been approved yet, but once they finally go through with the testing Arctics will no doubt pass. Those that question that point either havent seen an Arctic spa in person, or flat out have to compete against Arctic daily and have other motives. They are very impressive and perform well in many different climates.
Just my .02 cents.
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First of all, once the Arctic spa line is finally certified the proof will be in the pudding that they are just as efficient, if not more than many already tested. And I would argue that the results will be impressive.
I disagree, the results won't be impressive because I don't think we and customers will see anything other than a pass/fail result. They will simply say you are CEC or not.
The problem I can see is then a few of ones on that list that I personally can't believe are very energy efficient will say "we're CEC certified just like Hot Spring, Arctic, Jacuzzi... so we're just as efficient".
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Umm well the CEC report that I saw shows more info than just pass or fail from what I read. Maybe Im looking at the wrong thing but it shows quite a bit of stats. I could really care less what anyone claims on their sales floor I have proof that our spas perform extremely well. My competition has claimed lots of things for many years and it hasnt effected our sales.
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Umm well the CEC report that I saw shows more info than just pass or fail from what I read. Maybe Im looking at the wrong thing but it shows quite a bit of stats. I could really care less what anyone claims on their sales floor I have proof that our spas perform extremely well. My competition has claimed lots of things for many years and it hasnt effected our sales.
Yes but they're self reported stats!! I'm supposed to believe Master's results when they put so much work into fooling the public with their spa shows?
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First of all, once the Arctic spa line is finally certified the proof will be in the pudding that they are just as efficient, if not more than many already tested. And I would argue that the results will be impressive. Until then I suppose many can say they arent approved by a certain agency and arent efficient yada, yada, yada. Keep in mind that just because a spa line isnt approved on the list it doesnt mean that the spa line has been denied or even tested yet. These things take time and I would imagine coming from Canada does nothing but delay the process.
[glow]I could not agree with you more. I am sure once Arctic and the others get on board, they will be a champion for the CEC standards as well. I have never said that Arctic was inefficient . I only pointed out that they are not CEC certified and Cal is.[/glow]
I would like to ask since James keeps bringing up the point that the Arctic study is seven years old, once a spa or model passes the testing, are they retested every year to be up to James standards of a proper test? Or, once they pass the test is it end of story?
[glow]Good questions. However it was Tom who originally brought up the age of this test. I never knew it till he pointed it out. Keep in mind, these are not my standards, these standards are from a 3rd party government agency. As far as testing and retesting, I don't know. I'm sure as this unfolds, we'll all know more.[/glow]
Again their isnt much I can say that would prove Arctics are as efficient since they havent been approved yet, but once they finally go through with the testing Arctics will no doubt pass. Those that question that point either havent seen an Arctic spa in person, or flat out have to compete against Arctic daily and have other motives. They are very impressive and perform well in many different climates.
[glow]The best of luck to Arctic with their testing.[/glow]
Just my .02 cents.
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Yes but they're self reported stats!! I'm supposed to believe Master's results when they put so much work into fooling the public with their spa shows?
If these are all self reported stats then I question the legitimacy of the whole test. If that truly is the case then these test results are only worth the paper they are written on.
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And I just wanted to point out that just because Arctic isnt approved doesnt mean that they have failed the testing standards.
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A short follow up.
Those manufactures with models on the CEC Title 20 approved list are:
Artesian Spas, Bullfrog International, Cal Spas, Clearwater Spas, Dimension One Spas, Master Spas Inc., Softub Inc., Spa Manufacture, Inc., ThermoSpas, Inc., Watkins Manufacturing Company (every single HSS & Caldera brand spa model are on the list)
As you can see, it is a rather short list.
Tom is correct when he points out that there are no Canadian brands on the list.
Also remarkable is that the list indicates if the tub model is fully foam insulated or not. There is not a single non-fully foamed spa on the list as well.
Perhaps this will help with the FF vs TP debate.
If anyone thinks any of those spas would pass the requirements to get on that list I have some Atlantic beach front property in Arizona to sell you.
This has been debated on here many of times, there is [size=16]no testing [/size]that the CEC does all a manufacturer has to do is fill the form out and they get on the list. I read through the list and I call BS!!!! on the numbers posted by most.
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LONG POST WARNING
Interesting discussion, but I have such a sense of déja vu! James, you argue well, given the facts at your disposal.
It seems to be mostly hot tub professionals involved in the discussion at this point, with a few interested onlookers. So let me reiterate a few points to add to the depth of the debate.
- Arctic Spas took the initiative two ago to promote the development of Canadian standards for energy efficiency for hot tubs, as we felt that the California standards were far too low and were inadequate for the Canadian climate. The Office of Energy Efficiency of Natural Resources Canada undertook a market study which determined that the development of standards appropriate to Canadian conditions was both feasible and desirable. A Technical Subcommittee will be formed to investigate and formulate the Canadian test standards. Ultimately, these standards will apply to all spas manufactured in or imported into Canada.
- The method for becoming a CEC test facility is simple and is readily available on their web site. The facility manager signs an affidavit testifying that the facility meets the required standards. There is no inspection. Test instruments must be properly calibrated by an independent organization. Last I heard, we were waiting for our test equipment to arrive.
- Most large manufacturers with the proper facilities will do their own testing. I don't know if there is any planned program for spot testing or verification by the CEC. In this, the procedure for hot tubs will be exactly the same as for any other rated appliance -- stoves, fridges, clothes driers etc. AFAIK they are all tested and reported by their respective manufacturers.
- CEC-400-2008-014-SD, Table V "Data Submittal Requirements" contains on p. 195 under Portable Electric Spas the requirement "Spa enclosure is fully insulated" with the permissible answers "Yes, no". (In Sec 104:2:F of the proposed revision, that was not in the list of required data; however, it still appears on p. 195. Was I the only one to notice that inconsistency?) There was no definition of 'fully insulated' in the regulations. Can a spa could be considered "fully insulated" if it contains some material on all six sides, however minimal the insulating value of the material? A spa with no bottom covering, for example, could not be considered "fully insulated" under this interpretation, but the manufacturer could argue that it is 'insulated' on all surfaces exposed to wind and weather and therefore is 'fully insulated'. I wrote to the CEC to have this clarified. A Mr. Peter Straight replied, 'The common usage of the term "fully insulated" is understood to indicate a uniformity of insulation. A reduction of insulation in certain areas, where it could have been left in full, is no longer full.'
On this last point, based on prior discussion in the thread, it is clear that this is NOT the definition used by the units already in the database, and that the CEC had neglected to clarify or apply this definition to that early data. I'll have to look up the current regulations.
By Mr. Strait's definition, any spa with an interior cavity (one with no insulation at all, one with 1/2" of bubble foil, and one with 3" of PU perimeter foam) would all be rated "No". This simplistic rating clearly does not provide sufficient information to the public. It's a full-foam consipiracy! ;D ;D
But then, what does the CEC care how a unit is insulated, so long as it meets the standards? In the end, that doesn't matter to the consumer; as another post pointed out, "CEC certified" will be the only mark.
When we get EnerGuide and Energy Star ratings, that will be another tool to help the consumer distinguish the best from the merely adequate.
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When we get EnerGuide and Energy Star ratings, that will be another tool to help the consumer distinguish the best from the merely adequate.
Or so you'd think.
The ENERGY STAR Product Labeling Program identifies and promotes energy-efficient products. However, it seems that Energy Star and Energy Guide ratings, like spa efficiencies, are self-reported with little verification. In a report to the EPA http://www.epa.gov/oig/reports/2007/20070801-2007-P-00028.pdf, I found this:
Self-certification is...generally viewed as effective and has been employed for decades across many types of programs that touch U.S. consumers. Self-certification programs are viewed as particularly appropriate in countries such as the United States that have competitive market places that allow manufacturers to question their competitors and that also have robust consumer protection activities. Importantly, there is no evidence that these self-certification programs do not work. [Note the logic flaw in this last statement.]
[However,] EPA does not have reasonable assurance that the self-certification process is effective [same logic flaw]. EPA relies on some alternative verification mechanisms, but lacks any quality assurance or review of these reported results. The Agency’s verification testing also lacks a clear documented methodology governing products selected for verification tests and does not test for statistically valid results. Consequently, product efficiency and energy savings reported by manufacturers are, for the most part, unverified by EPA review.
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If these are all self reported stats then I question the legitimacy of the whole test. If that truly is the case then these test results are only worth the paper they are written on.
Bingo we have a winner!!!!!!!
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A short follow up.
Those manufactures with models on the CEC Title 20 approved list are:
Artesian Spas, Bullfrog International, Cal Spas, Clearwater Spas, Dimension One Spas, Master Spas Inc., Softub Inc., Spa Manufacture, Inc., ThermoSpas, Inc., Watkins Manufacturing Company (every single HSS & Caldera brand spa model are on the list)
As you can see, it is a rather short list.
Tom is correct when he points out that there are no Canadian brands on the list.
Also remarkable is that the list indicates if the tub model is fully foam insulated or not. There is not a single non-fully foamed spa on the list as well.
Perhaps this will help with the FF vs TP debate.
I will have to correct you, Clearwater is NOT a full foam spa, it is thermo-pane design, similar to Artic and as you said, it is on the list.
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From Me:
Those manufactures with models on the CEC Title 20 approved list are:
Artesian Spas, Bullfrog International, Cal Spas, Clearwater Spas, Dimension One Spas, Master Spas Inc., Softub Inc., Spa Manufacture, Inc., ThermoSpas, Inc., Watkins Manufacturing Company (every single HSS & Caldera brand spa model are on the list)
As you can see, it is a rather short list.
Tom is correct when he points out that there are no Canadian brands on the list.
Also remarkable is that the list indicates if the tub model is fully foam insulated or not. There is not a single non-fully foamed spa on the list as well.
Perhaps this will help with the FF vs TP debate.
[glow]From Hillbilly: I will have to correct you, Clearwater is NOT a full foam spa, it is thermo-pane design, similar to Artic and as you said, it is on the list. [/glow]
In response:
If you have a moment, please, read the approved list from the CEC. The list indicates with a "Yes" or "No" answer if the spa is "Spa Enclosure Fully Insulated (T/F)". Your correction aside, you'll notice every tub on the list has "yes" as the answer to the question.
With Tom's excellent answer and the CEC provided definition as to what "Spa Enclosure Fully Insulated” means in mind, why do you suppose the Clearwater spas are listed as true when asked "Spa Enclosure Fully Insulated (T/F)" yet you ( and the Clearwater WEB site) indicate they are not “Spa Enclosure Fully Insulated”?
Great Post Tom.
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From Me:
why do you suppose the Clearwater spas are listed as true when asked "Spa Enclosure Fully Insulated (T/F)" yet you ( and the Clearwater WEB site) indicate they are not “Spa Enclosure Fully Insulated”?
"Fully insulated" and "Fully foamed" are NOT the same thing. Clearwater is simply claiming their spas are fully (or in other words, completely or properly) insulated. EVERY spa manufacturer is going to claim they are fully insulated so they will all check that box as true so I’m not sure why that column even exists.
The problem is not all on that list are equally insulated and passing this CEC test happens with self reported data so this whole CEC thing is a starting point. Hopefully after it goes into effect the CEC will have all of these "fully" insulated spas checked to see if they truly pass. This CEC standard is like a baby, it starts out nearly blind and has no teeth but hopefully it will grow and help bring about change to some of the spas out there that are not so "fully" insulated (and IMO a few are those who have put themselves on pass list).
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"Fully insulated" and "Fully foamed" are NOT the same thing. Clearwater is simply claiming their spas are fully (or in other words, completely or properly) insulated. EVERY spa manufacturer is going to claim they are fully insulated so they will all check that box as true so I’m not sure why that column even exists.
The problem is not all on that list are equally insulated and passing this CEC test happens with self reported data so this whole CEC thing is a starting point. Hopefully after it goes into effect the CEC will have all of these "fully" insulated spas checked to see if they truly pass. This CEC standard is like a baby, it starts out nearly blind and has no teeth but hopefully it will grow and help bring about change to some of the spas out there that are not so "fully" insulated (and IMO a few are those who have put themselves on pass list).
I agree TOU.
I'd like to believe that those companies that are not fully foamed simply misunderstood the CEC's definition of what "Spa Enclosure Fully Insulated (T/F)" and answered YES when they most certainly should have answered no & that there was no misrepresentation involved.
Tom did a great job in finding out what the CEC's definition of "Spa Enclosure Fully Insulated" was.
In short the definition means, as I read it, that any tub that does NOT have insulation, where it otherwise COULD have had insulation, would not be considered as a "Spa Enclosure Fully Insulated" spa. That manufacture would check “NO” to the “Spa Enclosure Fully Insulated (T/F)" question.
I guess the great debate (debated till the cows come home in this forum) WOULD NOT be “is air as efficient and effective as insulation” but “is air insulation in and of itself?”
(Although, when I think about it, why would a manufacture care if their answer was yes or no as long as they truly met the standards?)
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YAWNNNNNNN!!!!!!! ::)
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(http://IMG]http://i299.photobucket.com/albums/mm314/chrisi1_2008/thbeating-a-dead-horse.gif)[/img]
;)
(http://[IMG]http://i299.photobucket.com/albums/mm314/chrisi1_2008/other_beatingA_DeadHorse.gif)[/img]
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LOL @ WeWanna!
(http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y273/ItsZep/20031204_HotTubHalle.jpg)
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Thanks, Zep!! ;D ;D ;D Cute baby!!
I am still trying to figure out the whole Photobucket thing==resizing...
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YAWNNNNNNN!!!!!!! ::)
LOL. Are we boring you?
Ultimately, though, these legislative 'baby steps' are going to have a dramatic influence on the industry. As manufacturers, we are proactive and involved (bet you couldn't tell from my posts, huh?).
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Ultimately, though, these legislative 'baby steps' are going to have a dramatic influence on the industry.
That’s what I’ve been saying. This why I'm not too worried if a few fudged their way to meeting those CEC standards. In time their feet will be held to the fire if that is the case. It’s a ladder and we're only on the first rung.
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wow i missed a lot these past 3 weeks....... :(
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I thought this was about Cal Spas, no?? I got lost....too many pages to read.
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"I thought this was about Cal Spas, no?? I got lost....too many pages to read"
Anything and everything mentioned about CalSpas is going to get
lots and lots and lots and lots and lots and lots and lots of attention!
It's like mentioning Michigan at a Notre Dame pep rally.
(http://i219.photobucket.com/albums/cc167/IBleedBlueAndGold/s_88401b2e856541be2833d9bea146d134.gif)
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"I thought this was about Cal Spas, no?? I got lost....too many pages to read"
Anything and everything mentioned about CalSpas is going to get
lots and lots and lots and lots and lots and lots and lots of attention!
It's like mentioning Michigan at a Notre Dame pep rally.
(http://i219.photobucket.com/albums/cc167/IBleedBlueAndGold/s_88401b2e856541be2833d9bea146d134.gif)
I noticed that....not just in this thread either!! I don't get it!
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If it is so easy to fudge your way to get on the list, why have others not done it? I know the other company we sell tubs for, Leisure Bay, is/has been working on getting their tubs to pass. They have not got there yet. If it was so easy to fudge their way into this list, I think they would since it is such an exspense to go through the process to pass.
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If it is so easy to fudge your way to get on the list, why have others not done it? I know the other company we sell tubs for, Leisure Bay, is/has been working on getting their tubs to pass. They have not got there yet. If it was so easy to fudge their way into this list, I think they would since it is such an exspense to go through the process to pass.
No doubt some are taking it seriously and there are a few that probably even needed to add insulation, cut down on air transfer, etc. to meet the standard. The point is that others may decide to shortcut this if they don't test well and fudge to meet their results since this appears to be self reported at this point. No one is saying it has happened for sure, just that it could be happening. Long term I gotta believe they'll have to make them actually work because I think this is just the beginning and if they are self reported somewhere along the lines they'll be tested by a 3rd party.
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it will come back to bite them in the butt when they get audited by the CEC to see if their spas meet the requirements.
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Zep,
What dealer did you purchase your CalSpa from?
Tailhooker.....
I purchased a new Cal a couple of years ago and I love my CalSpas tub!
Plus my CalSpas dealer has been great.
(http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y273/ItsZep/Hot%20Tub/Hooters066.jpg)
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Zep,
What dealer did you purchase your CalSpa from?
I believe he bought it at the Spa Warehouse in Mesquite.
Terminator
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I bought a Calspa almost a year ago and I love it. Not a problem so far. My dealer is great and apparently doing better than others in town. They just bought out a Jacuzzi dealership that shut down closer to my home and are relocating since its a larger showroom. Wet test before you buy and your mileage may vary. That makes at least three happy Cal owners...four if you count one of my friends who recommended them to me.
8-)
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It's like mentioning Michigan at a Notre Dame pep rally.
(http://i219.photobucket.com/albums/cc167/IBleedBlueAndGold/s_88401b2e856541be2833d9bea146d134.gif)
;D ;D ;D
Too funny Zep!
You ever heard the one about what the two most important jobs are in the Catholic Church........?
The Pope and the quarterback at Notre Dame and their not necessarily in that order ;)
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So lets go back to the Cal spa topic...This will shock everyone, I think Cal has made more of an effort in the last few years at fixing their name than most manufactures.
I've fought Cal for years on the local dealer level and swore that I would never even consider them on my floor...In fact I said that unless Casey Loyd (owner of Cal Spas) jumped in his little jet and flew out here in person I would never consider them but a few of my friends that felt the same way have been selling them for awhile and said they are one of the best companies they work with now. They also said that Cal is working extremely hard at changing their reputation.
I do notice that when I look at the online complaints it seems that there is a lot more factory intervention to get problems fixed....I'm not sure how much that has to do with them bringing in new managers like Jim Ferguson (Sundance Jacuzzi) and Paul Gould(Dimension One) but it is a huge step in the right direction.
The one thing I know for certain over the last several years is that everything changes constantly in this industry.
I never dreamed that HotSpring would sell flash or go to Mexico but they did, I never dreamed that Coleman would become a Canadian company and trade hands as much as they have, I’m shocked at how many moves Sundance/Jacuzzi has made and yet survived (now the rumor is they’re moving to Mexico). So to say that I’m impressed with what Cal is trying to do shouldn’t surprise me as much as it does, everything changes...
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I never dreamed that HotSpring would sell flash or go to Mexico but they did,
Let's be clear. Watkins Mfg. makes the Hot Spring brand and several others. They make Hot Spring and Tiger River in Vista, CA (last I checked USA). They make Caldera and every other brand in Mexico.
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Let's be clear. Watkins Mfg. makes the Hot Spring brand and several others. They make Hot Spring and Tiger River in Vista, CA (last I checked USA). They make Caldera and every other brand in Mexico.
....understood, that comment was not to put them down but to say that it was something I never thought I would see.
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....it was something I never thought I would see.
You still haven't seen it.
Watkins is a manufacturer of portable spas.
HotSpring Spa is a brand of spa (made by Watkins).
Watkins has a plant in Vista, CA and one in Mexico.
HotSpring Spa has no factory...it is a brand name.
HotSpring Spas are made in the Vista, CA factory.
I hope this added clarification helps.
Terminator
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You still haven't seen it.
Watkins is a manufacturer of portable spas.
HotSpring Spa is a brand of spa (made by Watkins).
Watkins has a plant in Vista, CA and one in Mexico.
HotSpring Spa has no factory...it is a brand name.
HotSpring Spas are made in the Vista, CA factory.
I hope this added clarification helps.
Terminator
You HS guys are killing me...Your starting to get as defensive as the Arctic boys. Funny when you sell against Coleman you refer to them as a Canadian company when they are made in AZ.
John and Jeff Watkins started making HotSpring Spas out of their Garage until Tom Neal came in and really marketed it. Then the three of them set up a factory making only HotSpring Spas until MASCO bought them.
So if I refer to all Watkins made spas as HotSpring forgive me, I've been around long enough to remember when that was all it was and if you think HS has nothing made in Mexico then your either misinformed or kidding yourself.
I'm also sure that most HotSpring dealers sell the Mexico product on their floor without bringing that up but would have no problem bringing up the Canadian Manufactures.
I'm not the only one that looks at it this way...My last truck of spas the driver was telling me that his brother had been stuck at the Mexico border all day with a load of HotSpring spas.
Maybe we should just say that company owned by the Screw, Faucet and cabinet company! ;)
I could go further into that also...MASCO was actually a Screw factory that was founded by an Armenian immigrant named Alex Manoogian.
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You still haven't seen it.
Watkins is a manufacturer of portable spas.
HotSpring Spa is a brand of spa (made by Watkins).
Watkins has a plant in Vista, CA and one in Mexico.
HotSpring Spa has no factory...it is a brand name.
HotSpring Spas are made in the Vista, CA factory.
I hope this added clarification helps.
Terminator
Watkins, the manufacturer of Hot Spring, Caldea and whatever else spas is a wholey owned division of MASCO, a company that has stock on the NYSE.
Watkins, the manufacturer of Hot Spring, Caldea and whatever else spas has 2 plants as was said - one in Vista, CA and one in Mexico.
MASCO, a company that has stock on the NYSE who owns Watkins has shareholders to answer to.
Watkins, the manufacturer of Hot Spring, Caldea and whatever else spas under MASCO, a company that has stock on the NYSE, has shareholders to answer to and [glow]needs to please MASCO shareholders that want their stock to do well[/glow].
Watkins, the manufacturer of Hot Spring, Caldea and whatever else spas under MASCO, a company that has stock on the NYSE, has [glow]shareholders [/glow]to answer to needs to please MASCO shareholders that want their stock to do well will have 2 1 plants as was said - one in Vista, CA and onein Mexico.
Watkins, the manufacturer of Hot Spring, Caldea and whatever else spas is a wholy owned division of MASCO a company that has stock on the NYSE that needs to please MASCO [glow]shareholders[/glow] that want their stock to do well has 2 1 plants as was said - one in Vista, CA and one in Mexico.
MASCO, the owner of Watkins, has pleased it's [size=18]SHAREHOLDERS[/size].
CEO of MASCO who has pleased the shareholders gets a huge bonus for closing a American Plant that was costly and moved manufacturing of Watkin products to Mexico.
I think it should read something like that IMO.
But of course it is just my opinion! ;) ;D
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So lets go back to the Cal spa topic...This will shock everyone, I think Cal has made more of an effort in the last few years at fixing their name than most manufactures.
I've fought Cal for years on the local dealer level and swore that I would never even consider them on my floor...In fact I said that unless Casey Loyd (owner of Cal Spas) jumped in his little jet and flew out here in person I would never consider them but a few of my friends that felt the same way have been selling them for awhile and said they are one of the best companies they work with now. They also said that Cal is working extremely hard at changing their reputation.
I do notice that when I look at the online complaints it seems that there is a lot more factory intervention to get problems fixed....I'm not sure how much that has to do with them bringing in new managers like Jim Ferguson (Sundance Jacuzzi) and Paul Gould(Dimension One) but it is a huge step in the right direction.
The one thing I know for certain over the last several years is that everything changes constantly in this industry.
I never dreamed that HotSpring would sell flash or go to Mexico but they did, I never dreamed that Coleman would become a Canadian company and trade hands as much as they have, I’m shocked at how many moves Sundance/Jacuzzi has made and yet survived (now the rumor is they’re moving to Mexico). So to say that I’m impressed with what Cal is trying to do shouldn’t surprise me as much as it does, everything changes...
MY EVIL PLAN IS WORKING!!!!!!!!!!!! MUAHAHAHAHAH!
(but what are the chances of Casey Loyd jumping in his jet to come and see you)
PFFFFT! ::)
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You HS guys are killing me...Your starting to get as defensive as the Arctic boys. [glow]Funny when you sell against Coleman you refer to them as a Canadian company when they are made in AZ.[/glow]
John and Jeff Watkins started making HotSpring Spas out of their Garage until Tom Neal came in and really marketed it. Then the three of them set up a factory making only HotSpring Spas until MASCO bought them.
So if I refer to all Watkins made spas as HotSpring forgive me, I've been around long enough to remember when that was all it was and if you think HS has nothing made in Mexico then your either misinformed or kidding yourself.
I'm also sure that most HotSpring dealers sell the Mexico product on their floor without bringing that up but would have no problem bringing up the Canadian Manufactures.
I'm not the only one that looks at it this way...My last truck of spas the driver was telling me that his brother had been stuck at the Mexico border all day with a load of HotSpring spas.
Maybe we should just say that company owned by the Screw, Faucet and cabinet company! ;)
I could go further into that also...MASCO was actually a Screw factory that was founded by an Armenian immigrant named Alex Manoogian.
When I sell against Coleman I never mention Canada or AZ. I simply mention that Coleman seems to be having a hard time finding/keeping a corporate buyer and is $540,000,000.00 in debt.
The geography lesson doesn’t seem to be needed at that point.
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When I sell against Coleman I never mention Canada or AZ. I simply mention that Coleman seems to be having a hard time finding/keeping a corporate buyer and is $540,000,000.00 in debt.
The geography lesson doesn’t seem to be needed at that point.
That's understandable when your selling a product that isn't made in the USA to not bring the subject up but for the Manufactures that are part of the struggling US economy it's a common thing brought up on the sales floor. We need more money spent here not Mexico and Canada....
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We need more money spent here not Mexico and Canada....
Hey! Wait just one minute :(
We need more money spent on the North American economy. Like it or not our two countries economies are tied very closely together
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That's understandable when your selling a product that isn't made in the USA to not bring the subject up but for the Manufactures that are part of the struggling US economy it's a common thing brought up on the sales floor. We need more money spent here not Mexico and Canada....
If it was only a matter of simple patriotism and nationalism over todays consumer economics.
The American public, despite their public outcry of jobs lost over seas, still has an unquenchable thirst for the consumer items they want, when they want them and to pay only what they’ll pay for them. If that means shipping manufacturing jobs to China to satisfy this thirst, so be it.
March down any aisle in Wal-Mart, America’s largest retailer, and you'll see the unfortunate proof of this.
Perhaps the corporate thinking at Masco/Watkins was that by opening a plant south of the border and positioning the company to actually grow it might, in the long run, provide those very jobs and economic growth IN the USA that we all wish for. Growing componies tend to do that.
Trust me, this wasn’t the 1st, nor will it be the last, manufacturer to look south when the time comes for some serious growth.
Who knows, the next one looking south may the very company you sell for.
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You HS guys are killing me...Your starting to get as defensive as the Arctic boys.
Thats funny about the Arctic boys. These boys are wound up tighter then a eight day clock. They need to take a long soak in one of their tubs. Maybe they could use Boscos's. Not talking about Tom.
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Hey! Wait just one minute :(
We need more money spent on the North American economy. Like it or not our two countries economies are tied very closely together
I have to somewhat agree ... If you're saying North American and thinking Canada and U.S. - OK. But as soon as you put Mexico in the mix - I 100% disagree. Remember that NAFTA includes Mexico in that mix, I doubt that the Mexican auto worker makes anywhere near what the American or Canadian auto worker makes or should I say made. The government, corporate America and unions sold North America down the tubes. AND to boot they want to legalize illegal immigrants. I doubt anything is the same for Mexico and corporations.
Maybe the spa companies can get phone support from India or China the way all the other industries get it... funny thing is asking people on the phone where am I calling they tell me Canada - their accent doesn't sound Canadian.
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Vinny,
You are 100% right, I was referring to Canada and the U.S. I know its wrong but I always think of Mexico as Central America.
Your right the Mexican auto worker makes no way near the money a U.S. or Canadian worker does nor does Mexico have the human rights, labour or environmental laws that Canada and the U.S. have.
Sorry to send this thread off track again but I did take exception to Stuarts comment. The Canadian and American economies are tied hand in hand, if one goes down so does the other. What is good for one economically is good for the other. I don't even want to start about the "buy American" slogans. You just have to ask yourself if a Honda Civic built in Ohio is any less American then a Ford Fiesta built in Mexico?
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...
You just have to ask yourself if a Honda Civic built in Ohio is any less American then a Ford Fiesta built in Mexico?
I gave up on the government when the Honda was designated an American car.
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Watkins, the manufacturer of Hot Spring, Caldea and whatever else spas is a wholey owned division of MASCO, a company that has stock on the NYSE.
Watkins, the manufacturer of Hot Spring, Caldea and whatever else spas has 2 plants as was said - one in Vista, CA and one in Mexico.
MASCO, a company that has stock on the NYSE who owns Watkins has shareholders to answer to.
Watkins, the manufacturer of Hot Spring, Caldea and whatever else spas under MASCO, a company that has stock on the NYSE, has shareholders to answer to and [glow]needs to please MASCO shareholders that want their stock to do well[/glow].
Watkins, the manufacturer of Hot Spring, Caldea and whatever else spas under MASCO, a company that has stock on the NYSE, has [glow]shareholders [/glow]to answer to needs to please MASCO shareholders that want their stock to do well will have 2 1 plants as was said - one in Vista, CA and onein Mexico.
Watkins, the manufacturer of Hot Spring, Caldea and whatever else spas is a wholy owned division of MASCO a company that has stock on the NYSE that needs to please MASCO [glow]shareholders[/glow] that want their stock to do well has 2 1 plants as was said - one in Vista, CA and one in Mexico.
MASCO, the owner of Watkins, has pleased it's [size=18]SHAREHOLDERS[/size].
CEO of MASCO who has pleased the shareholders gets a huge bonus for closing a American Plant that was costly and moved manufacturing of Watkin products to Mexico.
Whoa there, Vinny. Unless you're talking about a different Masco company, Watkins has not shut down an American Plant. They simply added a plant in Mexico. Did they do that because labor was cheaper? You bet. But they didn't shut down their Vista plant.
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OK, Masco's not there yet ... but give it time!
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If it was only a matter of simple patriotism and nationalism over todays consumer economics.
The American public, despite their public outcry of jobs lost over seas, still has an unquenchable thirst for the consumer items they want, when they want them and to pay only what they’ll pay for them. If that means shipping manufacturing jobs to China to satisfy this thirst, so be it.
One of my biggest pet peeves...couldn't agree more
March down any aisle in Wal-Mart, America’s largest retailer, and you'll see the unfortunate proof of this.
Which is why I refuse to "march down the isles at Wal-Mart", I personally feel that they are the evil empire.
Perhaps the corporate thinking at Masco/Watkins was that by opening a plant south of the border and positioning the company to actually grow it might, in the long run, provide those very jobs and economic growth IN the USA that we all wish for. Growing companies tend to do that.
Come on! So Watkins did this to help grow the US economy? That would be like stealing from a department store to help them with their security and give them a loss right off...Tell some of the US workers that have lost jobs to Mexico in the last year that it was to help the economy and see how they feel about it.
Trust me, this wasn’t the 1st, nor will it be the last, manufacturer to look south when the time comes for some serious growth.
Exactly but if I have a lackadaisical attitude about it in my own industry then I'm part of the problem.
I've begrudgingly sold Chinese and Mexican products but will not make it a staple in my sales and I don’t defend it with excuses about how it will help our economy in the long run. I sold it as what it was, cheaper Chinese product. If you want better we recommend the entry level US over the top of the line Chinese.
We in the industry have bantered about the danger of Chinese spas coming in and hurting the industry then some of our largest manufactures open the door to that even further by building factories in Mexico. If they want to sell in Mexico that's fine however they are shipping most of that product to the US.
We all talk about Cal Spas but when I look at their prices and compare their quality to the stuff coming from over the borders I think they above most are staying an icon in the American spa industry and proving it can be done right here in our country.
Coleman has opened the door to Chinese Swim Spas and really isn't saving the consumer anything on price. How much less expensive are the Caldera spas made in Mexico? Is that lower labor cost reflecting in the US workers wages? Or is it helping the consumer with a better price point? I've just looked hard at most of the major wholesale prices across the board and see that Caldera is right up there with many equivalent quality manufactures right here in the US.
Who knows, the next one looking south may the very company you sell for.
That is a constant concern of mine and I will fight it if they do but mostly I will promise that I won't defend it if they do…if I can’t sell it as a “cheaper” product than I will look elsewhere.
We all use components from other countries but US jobs and labor are still required to put those components together. Most of those components are machine made in the US or in other countries but the workers at final assembly are going by the wayside in our country.
HOW DOES CAL SPA STACK UP? oddly enough they are getting higher on my stack every day and they were at the bottom.
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I think one of the main reasons Watkins opened in Mexico is because of where their current plant/HQ sits. They are located in one of the most expensive places in the country to operate a labor-intensive manufacturing facility. They have no plans to move that facility, but they did have to expand their manufacturing capability. So, they went to the closest place with lower labor costs. Mexico.
They could have packed up and moved the entire company elsewhere, but then they would have lost a lot of very experienced employees who probably wouldn't have made the move. Seems to me the best place to manufacture hot tubs would be in the middle of the country. While shipping the product to the west coast would cost more to those dealers, the savings would be great to those on the east.
Plus, the cost of doing business in, say Texas, would be ridiculously lower than California. All their employees would get an immediate raise without paying them an extra penny.
But, they'll probably never do that. They'll stay in Vista and keep expanding the Mexico facility as needed.
And, if a dealer bad mouths something just because it is made in Canada - shame on them. I know that Scott Iverson would have never taught that to the dealers. That just comes from that dealer's own insecurity.
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Well, as most folks already know, wherever Watkins goes, D-1 usually follows.....
(http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b206/EastTexasSpa/dimencionuno.jpg)
Viva la aguas calliente!
Terminatez
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Well, as most folks already know, wherever Watkins goes, D-1 usually follows.....
Yeah like Acrylic colors, electronic programmable controls, auxiliary controls, ozone contact chambers, pillows, waterfalls, led lighting, all weather siding, fountains, custom accessories and cover lifters.
....oops, I almost forgot! D1 did that first and HotSpring followed!
On a positive note, it was much easier to work with HotSpring Corporate in the old days than it is to work with D1. Their bureaucracy is waay to tiring
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On a humorous note, for those following this thread. Years ago I was touring D1. Back when they offered colors and Watkins didn't. While on the tour, our guide said, many of our workers have siblings at Hot Spring, and vice versa.
Cracked me up. And vice versa. ;D
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Does someone have photos of this Watkins factory in Mexico? Since it is in Mexico, I am expecting it to be dirty, worse looking than the Phoenix Spa factory, and obviously it cannot be state of the art.
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Does someone have photos of this Watkins factory in Mexico? Since it is in Mexico, I am expecting it to be dirty, worse looking than the Phoenix Spa factory, and obviously it cannot be state of the art.
Not sure if that was said tongue-in-cheek or not.
The factory is a very nice factory. It is a state-of-the-art facility; it could rival any modern hot tub facility in the US. All the necessary environmental protections have been taken, all the health of the employee precautions have been taken, etc. It has showers for the employees, since most don't have running hot water at home. It has a cafeteria where they provide lunch for the employees. Other than knowing you're in Mexico, once you are in the building, you'd never know you are in Mexico. Many US companies have very nice facilities in the area.
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You know, one other thing about the move to Mexico for Watkins.
The spas that are produced in Mexico are fiberglass backed shells. They had a facility in El Cajon - the Caldera plant - but they had outgrown that facility. In order to keep producing the spas somewhere near their main plant and shipping location, they couldn't build that facility in California. You have to be grandfathered in and since they and they couldn't get the grandfather clause to kick in. So, the only other choice they had was to go to Mexico. As I mentioned in my last post, the facility is state-of-the-art. Really no environmental hazards are being released into the air there.
So, if you wonder why jobs had to go to Mexico? Blame the overreaching hand of the California government. They sent the jobs there.
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You know, one other thing about the move to Mexico for Watkins.
The spas that are produced in Mexico are fiberglass backed shells. They had a facility in El Cajon - the Caldera plant - but they had outgrown that facility. In order to keep producing the spas somewhere near their main plant and shipping location, they couldn't build that facility in California. You have to be grandfathered in and since they and they couldn't get the grandfather clause to kick in. So, the only other choice they had was to go to Mexico. As I mentioned in my last post, the facility is state-of-the-art. Really no environmental hazards are being released into the air there.
So, if you wonder why jobs had to go to Mexico? Blame the overreaching hand of the California government. They sent the jobs there.
Of course they couldn't consider any of the surrounding states to build a plant and keep it in the US, it was either California or Mexico! :o Less wages, less regulation, lower costs to pass on the pricing to....Oh yeah, they didn't lower the price...
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Of course they couldn't consider any of the surrounding states to build a plant and keep it in the US, it was either California or Mexico! :o Less wages, less regulation, lower costs to pass on the pricing to....Oh yeah, they didn't lower the price...
I suppose you sat in on the meetings where the options were discussed since you say that as a matter of fact.?? :)
Based on where they are based and where they ship spas from, that location would have made the most sense. Transporting spas back to Vista from, say, Las Vegas, wouldn't be a good solution.
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I suppose you sat in on the meetings where the options were discussed since you say that as a matter of fact.?? :)
Based on where they are based and where they ship spas from, that location would have made the most sense. Transporting spas back to Vista from, say, Las Vegas, wouldn't be a good solution.
Uhhhh........ Thay aren't shipping spas to the factory in Vista they are shipping from Mexico directly to the dealers. We talk to all of our drivers and there was no stop in Vista. :)
I wil however try and get another source and verify this because I am hearing 2 different versions of where these spas go.
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Uhhhh........ Thay aren't shipping spas to the factory in Vista they are shipping from Mexico directly to the dealers. We talk to all of our drivers and there was no stop in Vista. :)
I wil however try and get another source and verify this because I am hearing 2 different versions of where these spas go.
I did some homework on this and found out that is not the case. All spas from the Mexico facility go to Vista and are then shipped from there. No spas are shipped directly from Mexico to a dealer.
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[glow]Uhhhh........ Thay aren't shipping spas to the factory in Vista they are shipping from Mexico directly to the dealers. We talk to all of our drivers and there was no stop in Vista. :)[/glow]
I wil however try and get another source and verify this because I am hearing 2 different versions of where these spas go.
(http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b206/EastTexasSpa/spadisinformation.jpg)
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(http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b206/EastTexasSpa/spadisinformation.jpg)
HAHAHA! How ya doin' Chris?
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HAHAHA! How ya doin' Chris?
Fine and dandy, George. Been busy lately working on a top secret project for the government, creating an online spa magazine for customers, shooting hot tub instructional videos, plotting, scheming, and primarily waiting to pounce. :-X
Terminator
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Fine and dandy, George. Been busy lately working on a top secret project for the government, creating an online spa magazine for customers, shooting hot tub instructional videos, plotting, scheming, and primarily waiting to pounce. :-X
Terminator
Does it involve the possible handling of firearms?
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Fine and dandy, George. Been busy lately working on a top secret project for the government, creating an online spa magazine for customers, shooting hot tub instructional videos, plotting, scheming, and primarily waiting to pounce. :-X
Terminator
That is code for "downloads porn all day."
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Does it involve the possible handling of firearms?
Every endeavor I undertake involves some sort of weaponry, some moreso than others and others less so than some, to an extent without exception.
Term
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I was just at the Vista plant last week, and I will be there again next week. I would have gone this week as well but we got too busy with deliveries and such.
I pick up all the lines of tubs right at the Vista plant, and while there, I see plenty of large trucks - enclosed and flatbed - being loaded with all the lines. FWIW.
Also, the covers have been made in Mexico for a lot longer than the spas, and they all came back to Vista. I don't know if it is still true or not, but in the early days they shipped foam separate from vinyl and assembled ("stuffed") the covers in Vista, then boxed and shipped them from there. That was due to some import law, or some duty they had to pay or not pay that way. As I said, I don't know how they handle that now.
8-)
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That is code for "downloads porn all day."
I am not a liberty to discuss the details, however I have been cleared to make the following statement:
"Chris Odgen AKA "Terminator" at the request of senior US Milliary Officers, has indeed been involved with, and successfuly played key roles in certain projects of a highly delicate nature that required his personal skill and talents. Chris has been instrumental in the success of these operations.
On behalf of a grateful nation, we thank Mr Ogden for his hard work."
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I am not a liberty to discuss the details, however I have been cleared to make the following statement:
"Chris [glow]Ogden[/glow] AKA "Terminator" at the request of senior US Milliary Officers, has indeed been involved with, and successfuly played key roles in certain projects of a highly delicate nature that required his personal skill and talents. Chris has been instrumental in the success of these operations.
On behalf of a grateful nation, we thank Mr Ogden for his hard work."
And there you go....it don't get more official than that!
Double Naught Terminator
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And there you go....it don't get more official than that!
Double Naught Terminator
See...Just like we all suspected, a legend in his ............mind. ;) ;D
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Anyone ever seen Term and Drew in the same room at the same time?
I'm just sayin'...
8-)
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Anyone ever seen Term and Drew in the same room at the same time?
I'm just sayin'...
8-)
The room would go up in flames, probably set intentionally. :-/
Term
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(http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b206/EastTexasSpa/spadisinformation.jpg)
[/quote
Can't remember its relevence but I was wrong they do directly go to the Vista factory and get put into inventory. So UMMM Yeah! :-X