Hot Tub Forum
Original => Hot Tub Forum => Topic started by: SPORT on January 01, 2008, 09:28:12 pm
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Greetings,
Been lurking around for the past several weeks and now feel comfortable with your insights to ask some questions.
After getting rid of the pushy Thermospas guy for many reasons including their overpriced spas, service is greatly lacking, the BBB has numerous (and current) complaints against Thermospas, and we were unable to wet test, we thought we'd shop around a bit more.
While living in Fresno, CA we had a Sundance spa that we thoroughly enjoyed!!! However, there is not a Sundance dealer near us here on the East Coast. So I began looking again.
I thought I had it narrowed down to either Dimension One Spas (D1) or Dynasty Spas. However, I prefer to stay away from the full foam insulation of the D1, and my wife and I thought the Dynasty Spa did not produce enough pressure out of the jets. Sooo. We were told the Dynasty Antlantis, with an additional pump, may produce a little more jet pressure. We're waiting to wet test when it's ready.
In addition to Dynasty Spas, our dealer @ http://www.bobsintownespas.com/ sells Coleman, Hot Springs, and Tiger River spas. We've been pleased with the salesman and do not feel pushed to buy one over the other. With that said, he has leaned us towards Dynasty as it is a full featured package for its price range. He is also willing to let us wet test the other brands to compare.
With that, what are your impressions, reviews or overall insights regarding any of the above listed spas.
Oh, thank you in advance for your wisdom and experience.
Sport
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Greetings,
Been lurking around for the past several weeks and now feel comfortable with your insights to ask some questions.
After getting rid of the pushy Thermospas guy for many reasons including their overpriced spas, service is greatly lacking, the BBB has numerous (and current) complaints against Thermospas, and we were unable to wet test, we thought we'd shop around a bit more.
While living in Fresno, CA we had a Sundance spa that we thoroughly enjoyed!!! However, there is not a Sundance dealer near us here on the East Coast. So I began looking again.
I thought I had it narrowed down to either Dimension One Spas (D1) or Dynasty Spas. However, I prefer to stay away from the full foam insulation of the D1, and my wife and I thought the Dynasty Spa did not produce enough pressure out of the jets. Sooo. We were told the Dynasty Antlantis, with an additional pump, may produce a little more jet pressure. We're waiting to wet test when it's ready.
In addition to Dynasty Spas, our dealer @ http://www.bobsintownespas.com/ sells Coleman, Hot Springs, and Tiger River spas. We've been pleased with the salesman and do not feel pushed to buy one over the other. With that said, he has leaned us towards Dynasty as it is a full featured package for its price range. He is also willing to let us wet test the other brands to compare.
With that, what are your impressions, reviews or overall insights regarding any of the above listed spas.
Oh, thank you in advance for your wisdom and experience.
Sport
Not sure why you want to stay away from a full foam spa seeing you had a good experience with Sundance which is full foam. D1, HotSprings and Tiger River are top tier spas...all full foam. Coleman has a nice following and is thermopane. I don't know a lot about Dynasty, but there are a couple of owners on this forum. Dynasty is not generally considered at the same level as Sundance, D1 or HotSprings.
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I think I know your dealer in Fresno. Was it Jeremy or Tom?
If close enough, check out Spring Dance Hot Tubs in Exton, PA. They sell Sundance there.
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Yeah, I don't know what part of the East Coast you live in now, but if the weather is anything like the midwest, I would suggest you stay away from anything that's NOT full foam! I concur with Tony. D1 & Hot Spring are top tier. Tiger River is a lesser featured sister company to Hot Spring. Coleman is probably a notch below D1 & HS, but has a lot of loyal followers. I haven't heard a whole lot of good about Dynasty from my travels. Of course, if you can get to that Sundance dealer, they're the same level as D1 & HS. IMO.
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Greetings,
I thought I had it narrowed down to either Dimension One Spas (D1) or Dynasty Spas. However, I prefer to stay away from the full foam insulation of the D1, and my wife and I thought the Dynasty Spa did not produce enough pressure out of the jets.
I certainly don't have that problem with my Dynasty, but its about to have its 5th birthday and I haven't looked at the current line in at least 2 years. On mine, I have two pumps and if I really want pressure (which I frequently do) I turn one of the two diverters all the way to one side, and turn most of the jets off, I can get blasted by the remaining jet. To me, the volcano jet is worthless, but the other choice, the footblaster when operated the way I mentioned is very powerful, enough so it might push a smaller person away. I really need this as my upper thighs can get tied up in knots and at 6'2 260 it takes a lot of power to penetrate my legs.
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If close enough, check out Spring Dance Hot Tubs in Exton, PA. They sell Sundance there.
Exton is near Philly. The link Sport posted is to a dealer about 60 miles away from there. However, there are Sundance dealers in Harrisburg and Lebanon which are only about 25 miles away.
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I think I know your dealer in Fresno. Was it Jeremy or Tom?
If close enough, check out Spring Dance Hot Tubs in Exton, PA. They sell Sundance there.
What a small world! It was Jeremy back in the year...2,000...I think.
I'll take a look for Exton.
Thanks
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Exton is near Philly. The link Sport posted is to a dealer about 60 miles away from there. However, there are Sundance dealers in Harrisburg and Lebanon which are only about 25 miles away.
Harrisburg is do-able. I'll look into that as well.
Thanks for all the input.
As a note, I'm concerned with the extreme temperature changes here in York PA leading to potentially more problems, and as such, having a full foam spa would require cutting away until a leak can be found...which I'm told could be on the opposite side of where the water is puddling.
Any thoughts?
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Rt. 100, (just south of 113) the shopping center is called Marchwood, I believe. They have a beautiful showroom ;)
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Here http://www.goodallpools.com/Default.aspx?tabid=111 is the spa we had bought back in 2,000. As stated above we were VERY happy with it and miss it greatly. Now that I know a dealer is only 25 miles away, I will be scheduling a wet test ASAP.
How would you all rate the Sundance Altimer to the D1 Chairman II?
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I certainly don't have that problem with my Dynasty, but its about to have its 5th birthday and I haven't looked at the current line in at least 2 years. On mine, I have two pumps and if I really want pressure (which I frequently do) I turn one of the two diverters all the way to one side, and turn most of the jets off, I can get blasted by the remaining jet. To me, the volcano jet is worthless, but the other choice, the footblaster when operated the way I mentioned is very powerful, enough so it might push a smaller person away. I really need this as my upper thighs can get tied up in knots and at 6'2 260 it takes a lot of power to penetrate my legs.
Thanks for your insight. I'm not sure if we're just imagining the power of our Sundance (Its been since 2004) or if there is a real difference in pressure between the Sundance Altimer or the Dynasty Atlantis (which is much bigger than the Altimer), but we were not impressed with the Dynasty. I realize a concern may be that too much pressure may lead to itching or burning of the skin. I do remember this with our Sundance but it was not a big deal to us.
I guess we'll need to wet test back to back.
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Harrisburg is do-able. I'll look into that as well.
Thanks for all the input.
As a note, I'm concerned with the extreme temperature changes here in York PA leading to potentially more problems, and as such, having a full foam spa would require cutting away until a leak can be found...which I'm told could be on the opposite side of where the water is puddling.
Any thoughts?
Don't let the full foam spas scare you. Some of the non full foam spa sales people use this tactic to get you to buy their product. Any of the top tubs out there will have a 5 year warranty, so if in the very unlikey event your spa developes a leak, it's the dealers problem to fix (under warranty), so don't sweat it. Buy a tub that you're comfortable with and make sure you wet test before you buy anything.
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You should check out Marquis Spas. One of Marquis' sister companies (Fox Pools) is actually located in York, PA. They have a showroom that carries the Marquis line. They are located at:
1883 WHITEFORD ROAD
YORK, PA - 17402
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Don't forget Beachcomber, Artesian, Arctic, Calspa, Bullfrog, L.A. Spas, and every other spa company in the world. ::)
Sport asked about Coleman, Dynasty, Hot Springs and Tiger River. Then he asked about Dimesnion One and Sundance.
Don't forget Master Sp[as and Hydropools and Sunbelt and Hawkeye and others. Oh yea, and Royal Spas and Vita Spas and Coast and Catalina and........
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Don't forget Beachcomber, Artesian, Arctic, Calspa, Bullfrog, L.A. Spas, and every other spa company in the world. ::)
Sport asked about Coleman, Dynasty, Hot Springs and Tiger River. Then he asked about Dimesnion One and Sundance.
Don't forget Master Sp[as and Hydropools and Sunbelt and Hawkeye and others. Oh yea, and Royal Spas and Vita Spas and Coast and Catalina and........
Ah, Now I'm overwelmed! Wish I had a spa to un-wind in... :o
My wife and I read through your responses last night. Now that we know Sundance is nearby we will make an appointment with them.
Most of the spas mentioned above are familiar to us, and as such have already ruled them out for a number of different reasons. Our choices are really between the Sundance, D1, and Dynasty...more than likely in that order.
Oh, our purchasing time frame is for September/October 2008. We've got lots of time to choose the perfect spa and landscape the tub location. For those interested, I'll also see what I can do to post before, during and after pics of this project.
Appreciate Use'all helpen!
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. I realize a concern may be that too much pressure may lead to itching or burning of the skin. I guess we'll need to wet test back to back.
We are both on the same page there. Its like a big engine in a fast car, its there if you need it, but you don't have to go 125mph everywhere, but its nice to have when you need it.
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I would suggest you stay away from anything that's NOT full foam!
This is as much misinformation as the thermopane guys misinforming customers about full foam. Just like full foam, if thermopane is designed and installed properly, there is no problem. On the contrary, if either is designed or installed poorly, then energy/maintenance will be costly.
My suggestion to SPORT would be to choose a quality name-brand spa from a local dealer who makes you feel comfortable for the sale and, even more important, comfortable after the sale (as best as you can judge at this point). Don't worry about full foam or thermopane, number of jets or horsepower...just wet test, wet test and wet test some more and find the spa that feels the best for you...your back should have a major say re: your spa choice.
Good luck in your search.
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My suggestion to SPORT would be to choose a quality name-brand spa from a local dealer who makes you feel comfortable for the sale and, even more important, comfortable after the sale (as best as you can judge at this point). Don't worry about full foam or thermopane, number of jets or horsepower...just wet test, wet test and wet test some more and find the spa that feels the best for you...your back should have a major say re: your spa choice.
Good luck in your search.
Ya, I'm kinda gettin that feeling from all the responses. Not that its bad, infact I rather enjoy the differing opinions as it gives me other points of views to consider.
As you can tell, I started not wanting full foam becuase the sales reps said so, but am now leaning back to the full foam spas. Hearing other opinions helps me to balance the different views and provides a more informed decision.
So really, I do enjoy all of your views!
Now that I've returned to teaching (from X-mas break), I'll find an opening both my wife and I can make to wet test Sundance & D1.
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The real issue with a TP design is it seems like a very few number of makers seem to do it right with consistency. Make no mistake it is a cheaper way to build a spa as all the makers who offer both offer full foam for an extra charge.
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The real issue with a TP design is it seems like a very few number of makers seem to do it right with consistency. Make no mistake it is a cheaper way to build a spa as all the makers who offer both offer full foam for an extra charge.
OK...I give; what is TP?
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Thermal Pane.
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Don't worry about full foam or thermopane, number of jets or horsepower...just wet test, wet test and wet test some more and find the spa that feels the best for you...your back should have a major say re: your spa choice.
Good luck in your search.
Sport,
Sure, wet testing is very important but I disagree with the above advice to ignore insulation method altogether. I think you definitely want to consider how the spa is insulated but you shouldn't simply discount all thermal panes. For instance, Arctic and Coleman get a pretty good rep that they seem to know how to implement a thermal pane design. Thermal pane insulation is fine in theory but more often than not is more theory than reality IMO. Too many thermal pane spas have some fancy marketing name for their insulation method but seem to be energy pigs so to say the insulation method shouldn't be considered too often leads to irate owners when they get their first bill.
As far as horsepower, you shouldn’t worry about the numbers as long as the manufacturer isn't trying to play the equivalent of the spa shell game. Don't worry as long as they aren’t trying to hoodwink you with "fake" or Brake HP (BHP) when comparing to other makers who list "real" or Continuous HP. If anyone talks about a spa having 4hp or 5hp or 6HP pumps you should realize they are using a marketing ploy to make you think the motors are more than they really are.
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Thermal Pane.
:-? ???? All this time I thought we were talking about toilet paper............Guess you learn something everyday ::)
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Arctic is thermal pane? And they claim to be the most energy efficient -- made in Canda -- right? So they must have it down. Any Arctic owners or Coleman owners have energy consumption stories for us?
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Har Har Har!!!
I can claim that Britany Spears should be Mother of the Year when in reality she's about as fit a mother as Joan Crawford!
Thermal pane designs only work well in a vaccum and I have yet to see a hermatically sealed hot tub. Artic's are fairly effective at retaining heat, but they aren't airthight, ersatz they are flawed.
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:-? ???? All this time I thought we were talking about toilet paper............Guess you learn something everyday ::)
Glad to see others as warped as me.
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Glad to see others as warped as me.
Wow...if you think TP= Toilet Paper is warped, I'm keeping my mouth shut on what came to mind when I was reading! ;D
The Doob
PS: Good luck in your search. This forum is great for getting lots of input to make a good decision. All of the members helped me make a choice that I'm quite pleased with.
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Thermal pane designs only work well in a vaccum and I have yet to see a hermatically sealed hot tub. Artic's are fairly effective at retaining heat, but they aren't airthight, ersatz they are flawed.
I think you mean 'ergo', though 'ersatz' fits beautifully in the context. :D And Arctic Spas are not meant to be airtight, nor do we claim that they are airtight, so I dispute that they are flawed because of that.
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Sport,
Sure, wet testing is very important but I disagree with the above advice to ignore insulation method altogether. I think you definitely want to consider how the spa is insulated but you shouldn't simply discount all thermal panes.
Spatech,
Please re-read my entire post and you will see that I was not advocating to ignore the insulation method ("...choose a quality name-brand spa..." plus the comments about well designed/built tubs vs. poorly designed/built.) I just didn't want SPORT to make insulation method a deal killer for what could be his best choice of tubs from what his wet test soaks may tell him.
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Spatech,
Please re-read my entire post and you will see that I was not advocating to ignore the insulation method ("...choose a quality name-brand spa..." plus the comments about well designed/built tubs vs. poorly designed/built.) I just didn't want SPORT to make insulation method a deal killer for what could be his best choice of tubs from what his wet test soaks may tell him.
And I appreciate your thoughts. Although I do not have hard facts to prove this, but it seems logical that generally speaking, a full foam spa would be more efficient than a TP spa. At this point neither is a deal breaker. My wife wants a spa that will act similar to a deep tissue message...like our Sundance did several year back.
Dynasty Spas were nice, but the pressure seemed to be on the light side of what we remember. Once we can lock in a time to wet test a Sundance we'll be able to form a more objective decision.
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Thermal pane designs only work well in a vaccum and I have yet to see a hermatically sealed hot tub. Artic's are fairly effective at retaining heat, but they aren't airthight, ersatz they are flawed.
A HUGE point missed by Scaramanga is that there are heat producing motors that run and constantly add heat in the cabinet. In my spa, the circ pump constantly supplies heat while the therapy pumps supply heat when running...not the same as the "thermos bottle" design he describes. Were there no motors contributing heat, I would have to agree that the TP concept is suspect compared to full foam.
As an aside, I have a theory that full foam is better in colder climates, especially during loss of power where freezing is possible, where thermopane is better in warmer climates as it helps dissipate heat better thereby prolonging pump motor life. Something to consider anyway...
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As an aside, I have a theory that full foam is better in colder climates, especially during loss of power where freezing is possible, where thermopane is better in warmer climates as it helps dissipate heat better thereby prolonging pump motor life. Something to consider anyway...
Never thought about FF & TP that way before. I think you're right on there!
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Never thought about FF & TP that way before. I think you're right on there!
You're looking at a TP spa and ssuming the same setup for a FF. You'll find that most full foam spas redirect that heat so that the motors don't get fried.
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Had a chance to chek out the sundance Cameo yesterday. Although it was our first Spa (actually it was the Altimar) while we lived in CA, we were unimpressed with the performance of the 2007 model (ours was a 2002 model). We returned to Bob's intown Spa (York, PA) and was encouraged to check out their HotSpring line. Although they did not have a Envoy filled, we were able to compare they're lower end model, which had the same pressure as the Sundance. We were assured the Envoy would have even more pressure than they're lower-end models. Now we're awaiting a time to wet test the Envoy.
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I'm just getting into the Spa search myself. From my very limited journey so far it appears that Hot Springs and Sundance are both top end premere tubs. I think Hot Springs dosen't have the pazazz as some other brands but they seem very solid. When it comes to Pazazz I really liked the Artesian spa. I don't know were I will end up but wish you well with your journey.
Scott
:)
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ditto to that journey thingy ;)
I've been told that the owner of Sundance first started at Hotspring. Personally, we're not looking for the pazzazz, but rather for a spa that can provide a deeper tissue message. Our first spa, which was a Sundance was very good, but the new Sundance line-up, as stated above, are unimpressive. We were initially pleased with the Hotspring and are looking forward to wet testing. moreover, the dealer has been very good to us and has a flexable purchase special. Hopefully, we'll make our decision within the next month.
Talk atya later.
Rick
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Arctic owners or Coleman owners have energy consumption stories for us?
Here is something about Arctic in Colorado: http://www.poolspaforum.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=10010&st=0&p=47268&#entry47268
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Har Har Har!!!
I can claim that Britany Spears should be Mother of the Year when in reality she's about as fit a mother as Joan Crawford!
Thermal pane designs only work well in a vaccum and I have yet to see a hermatically sealed hot tub. Artic's are fairly effective at retaining heat, but they aren't airthight, ersatz they are flawed.
I'm a full foam guy, but that statment is just plain wrong. Thermal panes do not need a Vacuum to work.
insualtion via a vacuum is a completely different method than TP.
But regardless, Buy a QUALITY spa from a QUALITY dealer and the full foam / TP wont be an issue.
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There's really only 3 I'm considering in the following order:
3) D-1, which I think is TP (3rd only 'cause I haven't wet tested yet)
2) Sundance, which is a FF (Wasn't impressed with power of jets)
1) Hotspring, which is also FF (Initially impressed, still need to to wet test)
If research serves me correctly, all 3 are considered quality spas, now it's a matter of personal taste and opinion...yes...no?
Our local Farmshow starts today (Harrisburg, PA), we're hoping to go later this week and make a decision.
Your continued insights and humor ;D are welcome and encouraged.
Thanks for the support
Rick
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So Rick, I am curious, you mention your farm show...are you putting off you decision because there are hot tub dealers displaying there? I have tried for the past two years to get a couple of dealers to come to our local Fair and farm show, but no luck yet. Our area is rapidly changing from farms and country to huge developments. That's why I think our Farm show would be a prefect place to display hot tubs. the folks that are buying the new houses have money...the houses are in the $650,000+ range and they are still managing to sell even in this lousy market. I would love to see a hot tub display with our landscaping competition...any dealers agree with me?
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Sport, fyi, D1 is ff.
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Sport, fyi, D1 is ff.
Duly noted. :)
I've seen so many spas, now there all blending together. :o
Bonibelle,
In my little home town of York we have a 'Home And Garden show', which is very small, yet several spa dealers come. The Farmshow in Harrisburg, I've been told, is one of the largest in the state, and is only 30 minutes from us. Several of the dealers I've spoken to in the last week were busy getting ready for the show and encouraged us to visit them there.
Personally, I think if dealers want exposure, they should seriously consider there local farmshows/home and garden shows, as it attracts thousands of potentials. We bought our first spa back in 2000 becuase we did not realize the need for a spa until it was shown to us at the show. Just a plug for you dealers out there as we becames a customer only because we walked through the Farmshow doors.
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That is exactly what I am thinking. It is very inexpensive to display at a smaller show and you get people that linger and come back day after day. Our Fair lasts 3 days and I know people tend to spend the weekend. I am going to press my dealer again and see if I can hook him up with one of the landscapers..maybe he can get in for free!! ;)
I would love go to Harrisburg, I am sure there will be reps from our Fair there because they go to get ideas and vendors for our event.
So are you a farmer Rick? You'll have to get Chas some tractor pictures. I was in a John Deer that had a GPS tracking system to help with planting..AC and even TV..unbelievable!!! ;)
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A Tractor with GPS, A/C, and a TV. Must be them Amish fokes...Oh, that's right, they can't have TV's ;)
Been raised by a pack of wolves in the urban world out in Cali. Moved to York, PA in '04. Don't much of nothin about farmin.
I must say, the Harrisbug Homeshow (as it is officially called, though many still call it a farmshow) is the largest Home show I've ever seen. Spent 5 hours there today and maybe saw 1/2 of it...SERIOUSLY! My wife and I debated over which spa to get. We finally narrowed it down to 2; the Envoy HotSpring and the Tahesian Caldera. After much deliberation and discussion, we decided on a Blue Sandstone with gray siding Envoy Hotspring. Although it was a close match, the Envoy fit our style, performance AND looks quite well, moreover, it was about $1,500 less for an '08 when compared to a Caldera '07. We are comfortable with our decision even though Caldera's seem to be a good spa; ironically, both Caldera and HotSpring are made by Watkins. We gave a deposit and will take delivery in September (gives me time to finish landscaping). Moreover, we were very happy with our local dealer and the price.
Oh, he's also throwing in 4 rubber duckies. :D
Thanks for all your help, and I'll keep you posted on our progress.
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Congrats!
Who is the dealer?
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Who is the dealer?
http://www.bobsintownespas.com/
Congratulations Sport!
I took a gander at the website for the home show you attended and seems like you had your fair share of spas to choose from. I saw booths for pretty much every major manufacturer out there. I hope one day the STL has one as large as yours...
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Congrats!
Who is the dealer?
Chad is correct. The Home Show had nearly every Spa dealer there. which made our decision more challenging than expected. We purchased the Hotspring from Bob and Dave (Great people by the way) at Bob's Intown Spa located in York, PA. They offered $1,000 less than asking due to the Homeshow sale, $500 less for buying today, and Bob was willing to knock off an additional $200 from shipping fees because we were willing to take delivery in the fall (something about shipping in bulk provided discounted shipping fees for him). Of course this could be an indication of their mark-up, but when we can purchase a quality spa for well under $10,000, we're very happy. Moreover, we have first hand knowledge that their service department is top notch.
More to follow...
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Is it September yet?
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The process has begun. :)
Below are several before, as well as during the building stage.
(http://i182.photobucket.com/albums/x171/FJRSPORT/Picture036.jpg)
(http://i182.photobucket.com/albums/x171/FJRSPORT/Picture035.jpg)
(http://i182.photobucket.com/albums/x171/FJRSPORT/Picture064.jpg)
(http://i182.photobucket.com/albums/x171/FJRSPORT/Picture065.jpg)
(http://i182.photobucket.com/albums/x171/FJRSPORT/Picture066.jpg)
(http://i182.photobucket.com/albums/x171/FJRSPORT/Picture067.jpg)
(http://i182.photobucket.com/albums/x171/FJRSPORT/Picture068.jpg)
Are we there yet papa smurf???