Hot Tub Forum
Original => Hot Tub Forum => Topic started by: Scott on April 28, 2008, 09:13:56 pm
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I write to you all in search of the right answer as my dealer tells me one thing and others tell me something else. The dealer told me all I have to do is test my water regularly and add two teaspoons of spa essentials dichlor after each use and this would suffice using the vision cartridge. I followed their advice as they are the supposed experts and I as the novice did what was advised. Started up on 3-7-08 and have had really no problems until I went away for 3 days and the water became cloudy. Checked water and was reading low on ph and Stablizer was real high. I finally got the water back to real clear after two days of work adding water clarifier and balancing the ph values. So to be sure I took a sample to another place other than the dealer who sold me my tub and this is what I was told. he recommended after the water analysis to go home and drain my tub. Here is his reasons. My CYA is 151 and he said that this is way to high. He also said should I opt not I need to balance the ph. I also should use a chlorinatinjg Concentrate to balance the free and total chlorine. This just contradictes what the dealer told me as when I bring the water there they tell me not to concern myself with the chlorine levels because of the Vision cartridge. With these two very different opinions I am as a new spa owner confused. I use the tub almost every night for about 30 minutes along with my wife and 13 year old. The whole Vision thing and what I was told are at best baffled. Is this CYA high reading enough to trash the water after just barely 2 months in? Is this Vision thing a hoax or am I overly reacting?
G. Scott :-[
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My biggest concern is how you got your cya to 151 in 2 months. Although this is possible, i think it is highly unlikley. How much Chlorine have you added to the spa over 2 months. 2 lbs...4 lbs... I would try to have my cya tested somewhere else just to see if perhaps the test was contaminated. What D-1 model do you have?
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I own a lotus bay and am thinking along the same lines of gettinjg it tested again. The only place is back to the dealer. They have not on the two other occasions tested for CYA. This time I will request it. Does using Dichlor as I have read increase your CYA?
G.Scott
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First, please do us a little tiny favor and break your posts into paragraphs. It is much easier to read.
Second, you should not have that much cyanuric acid in your water. Did you actually add stabilizer to your water? Dichlor contains CYA, but unless you are really adding a lot of Dichlor, the CYA shouldn't get that high. And, you should not be adding additional CYA. As you splash out water and add fresh water, you will dilute the CYA.
I would at least partially drain your spa and add fresh water. Really doesn't hurt to drain the whole thing.
Here is what I do for my spa. I shock with MPS after I get out. Once a week, I add a dose of dichlor. I also use an ozonator and silver cartridge and my spa always looks great. The only time my water goes funky on me is when I get a lot of kids in the spa and I didn't treat it before they got in.
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Vanguard,
I will heed your advice as it is soo much easier reading this spaced apart. I am going to have the water re-tested on Wednesday just to find what the heck is going on. I try to be vigilant and want to protect my investment. I just want to be more informed and told what I need to do.
Thanks for the feedback
G.Scott
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Second, you should not have that much cyanuric acid in your water. Did you actually add stabilizer to your water? Dichlor contains CYA, but unless you are really adding a lot of Dichlor, the CYA shouldn't get that high.
I disagree. My CYA level will reach 50 ppm in two weeks with daily addtion of dichlor to 2 ppm. It is very easy to get to 150 ppm and most will reach 300 ppm or more by the time their water is changed.
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Tony,
At what level of CYA is draining recommended? Why?
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CYA reduces chlorines effectiveness. As I recall, for every 1 ppm you raise the chlorine level, you raise the CYA by 0.08 or 0.9 ppm......and there's no way to reduce the CYA.
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I disagree. My CYA level will reach 50 ppm in two weeks with daily addtion of dichlor to 2 ppm. It is very easy to get to 150 ppm and most will reach 300 ppm or more by the time their water is changed.
Let me re-phrase that - having that much CYA in your water is not good. In that regard, you should not have that much. Not that you can't get there. I fully agree that you can get there - especially if you are adding dichlor on a daily basis. That is part of the reason I don't add dichlor after using the spa.
As Dr. Spa stated, the more CYA you get in your water, the less effective the chlorine becomes.
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Scott, adding dichlor after each use is what most of do here. Did your dealer ever tell you to shock the spa? You need to shock every week or two with MPS or a high dose of dichlor to eliminate your combined chlorine. This is the stinky stuff that you want to get rid of.
Go to Docs site and read up on the Vermonter method under the FAQ section. It's good stuff............
http://www.rhtubs.com/bbs/FAQ.htm
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It is threads like this one that concern me about becoming a new spa owner. It sounds like you need to be a chemist to own a tub. I guess I have a lot to learn.
Scott :o
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Actually, Scott, for most people, water chemistry is easy. It is those who think they need to be chemists, who make it far more difficult than they need to.
Simple steps:
Testing
Water balance
Sanitation
Oxidation
Filtration and Circulation
Drain and refill
If you drain and refill 3 or 4 times a year you should not have to worry about CYA and TDS. When you obsess about the obscure things, you get yourself into trouble.
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Tony,
At what level of CYA is draining recommended? Why?
Outdoor chlorine pools like a minimum of 20 ppm CYA and a max of about 50 ppm to effectively sanitize and to keep algae from thriving. The higher the CYA level, the higher free chlorine level is needed to get the same effect. There are graphs and charts that plot the relationship between CYA and free chlorine. A free chlorine level of 3 ppm at 20 ppm CYA would have to be much higher at 100 ppm CYA to do the same job. Depts of Health have upper limits for CYA in public spas and pools just as they have minimum chlorine levels.
I have used dichlor for years and have never had a problem even though my CYA levels get sky high by the time I drain at four months. I do not compensate with higher free chlorine levels, either...but it is on my mind. It is fortunate that most bacterias in a spa are killed with relatively low levels of sanitizer and that algae is not really an issue.
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Bio labs did several test that were interestin. They found that chlorine works just fine with a cya of 100-150. (in a swimming pool)
The so called "Chlorine Lock" was more of a myth, with scientific background. It could not be duplicated in lab tests. That being said, bio labs still recomends a max level of cya in a pool of 80 ppm.
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As Tony said, in water algea is harder to kill than bacteria.
As CYA increases chlorine does become less effective but most of the bacteria in the tub is killed by very low doses of chlorine. The exception to this is the hot tub itch bacteria where apparently after 50 PPM CYA it is impossible to kill with standard doses.
I would say almost all people who use dichlor will be at close to or over 150 PPM CYA in 2 months.
Since we are talking spas and not pools we are also talking bacteria and not algea so CYA levels aren't important unless the hot tub itch bacteria is introduced into the spa.
The reason why people use bleach as a chlorine sanitizer is to elimnate the amount of CYA that is added to the tub. Although I haven't tried it myself the idea is to use dichlor for the first week or so until you have 20 to 30 PPM CYA and then switch to bleach and the bleach will now be the disinfectant without adding CYA. Personally the idea of adding bleach seems like a PITA since measuring fluids is harder than flipping 2 teaspoons into the water.
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Bio labs did several test that were interestin. They found that chlorine works just fine with a cya of 100-150. (in a swimming pool)
The so called "Chlorine Lock" was more of a myth, with scientific background. It could not be duplicated in lab tests. That being said, bio labs still recomends a max level of cya in a pool of 80 ppm.
I don't really believe there is such thing as "Chlorine Lock" myself. You can't deny the science, though, that CYA reduces the effect of chlorine.
I agree with Vinny. Most all bacteria in a spa will be destroyed even with a high CYA level except the hot tub itch pseudonoma and certain parasites such as giardia. Fortunately, these are not as common as other bacterias.
Vinny, I have been experimenting with bleach since November and have found a way to add that is just about as easy as tossing a couple of teaspoons of dichor in the water. I have just changed my water and will continue on as I have had a very good experience so far. We'll see what the summer brings.
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Vinny, I have been experimenting with bleach since November and have found a way to add that is just about as easy as tossing a couple of teaspoons of dichor in the water. I have just changed my water and will continue on as I have had a very good experience so far. We'll see what the summer brings.
I assume you premeasure ... did you find a bottle of exact ounces. I have a prescription bottle that I marked off 1oz for using liquid enzymes and such. I would think that I could mark it up that way 0.6 x 4 or 2.5 oz.
Tub is almost 3 YO ... warranty is over at 3 YO mark ... maybe time to experiment again! But then it's the measuring of liquids and possible spillage and ruining of things.
Tony, please let me know what is the way you add bleach.
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I assume you premeasure ... did you find a bottle of exact ounces. I have a prescription bottle that I marked off 1oz for using liquid enzymes and such. I would think that I could mark it up that way 0.6 x 4 or 2.5 oz.
Tub is almost 3 YO ... warranty is over at 3 YO mark ... maybe time to experiment again! But then it's the measuring of liquids and possible spillage and ruining of things.
Tony, please let me know what is the way you add bleach.
Vinny, I use a 24 oz bottle of Clorox bleach and a 6 oz clear plastic measuring cup from a discarded Tide detergent contianer (the larger one). It has a couple of lines on it, one of which measures to 4 oz. At the spa itself, I fill the cup to the 4 oz level and then submerge the cup with the open end up into the water and swirl a couple of times. I run my pumps for a couple of minutes and shut down and close the cover. The 24 oz Clorox bottle is smaller than my 32 oz dichlor bottle while the cup is like using a larger tablespoon. The 24 oz bottle lasts a week and I refill from a 96 oz bottle which is easy enough to handle. I use Clorox regular bleach only, but may use the double strength liquid pool chlorine when I open the pool and have it on hand. My warranty was up last August.
My next experiment may be Brilliance 100% bromine with a frog kept at 1 ppm bromine level and shock with bleach. We'll see. ;)
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As always Thank you all for your various and different inputs. Reading all of these has been a bit confusing and useful at the same time.
I think I am going to drain my tub down half way on Friday and refill it, I will then test it add whatever is needed and go from there. Nothing to lose except a jump in my water bill and perhaps some of the issues with the higher CYA will decrease.
Keep up the good info you guys and will get back to you hopefully with positive results!!
G. Scott :-/
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Come to think of it, I've really never tested my spa for stabilizer level. For all I know, I could have had 200-300 ppm and never knew it. That's where draining comes in handy every few months. I guess you really don't have to worry much about the CYA in a spa.
FWIW, here in south Texas, I always kept my pools around 100 ppm of stabilizer when I had my service company. I never ran into issues with non-effective chlorine at that level and seemed to run out of chlorine much faster when the level got anywhere below 80. I had much happier customers when I kept chlorine in the pool all week.
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Come to think of it, I've really never tested my spa for stabilizer level. For all I know, I could have had 200-300 ppm and never knew it. That's where draining comes in handy every few months. I guess you really don't have to worry much about the CYA in a spa.
FWIW, here in south Texas, I always kept my pools around 100 ppm of stabilizer when I had my service company. I never ran into issues with non-effective chlorine at that level and seemed to run out of chlorine much faster when the level got anywhere below 80. I had much happier customers when I kept chlorine in the pool all week.
It is not so much as being non-effective as it is being less effective. Chlorine at higher CYA levels requires a longer kill time to disinfect. Chlorine should last longer at higher levels of CYA, as you experienced. It is being "protected" by the stabilizer. It is also not being "allowed" to do its job as efficiently.
I agree with you, CYA in a spa is not as much an issue because water is completely changed on a regular basis. From what I understand, there is also a point where the protective qualities of stabilizer sort of max out and thus very high CYA levels are probably not a whole less effective than somewhat high levels. The number 180 ppm CYA sticks in my mind for some reason, but don't quote me on that, please. :)