Hot Tub Forum
Original => Hot Tub Forum => Topic started by: Water Boy on March 26, 2008, 03:49:02 pm
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One of our friendly mods pm'd me a message and suggested that I start a topic about warranties with all the talk of warranties today. He suggested that each dealer post the current 2008 warranty for the brand that they sell. This is not intended to start a war amongst dealers. It is intended to give information to the customers that look at this site for just that, helpful information. I will start it off.
As many of you know, we sell Arctic Spas. There warranty is as follows:
Spa Shell- Lifetime Warranty
Equipment & Plumbing- 5 years (10 years on Legend SE's)
Other Components- 5 years (10 years on Legend SE's)
Shell Surface- 5 years (10 years on Legend SE's)
Cover- 3 years
Forever Floor- 5 years
Aquatremor Stereo- 3 years
Wet-tunes Stereo 1 year
Onzen System- 2 years
Arctic Chiller- 1 year
This warranty covers parts, and labor. There is nothing pro-rated.
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From Term:
http://www.hotspring.com/Spa_Showroom_Hot_Tub/warranty.html
Terminator
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I win again!
Terminator Uno x Dos!
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Just for shitz & giggles, it would be interesting to know if any of these warranties are transferrable to a new owner if the spa is sold to a second owner?
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Marquis' is, I believe.
Term
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Water boy, so your saying your jets are covered for 5 & 10 years on an Arctic?
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Yes
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10 year shell
7 year shell structure
5 year equipment
5 year plumbing
2 year pretty much everything else
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Spa Shell- Lifetime warranty
Shell Surface- 5-years
So which is it?
or is Artic calling the spa shell the fiberglass structure and if so I do believe it will last a lifetime or two. seems a bit misleading just so you can use the word lifetime.
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Just read the warranty it's not mis leading.
http://www.arcticspas.com/downloads/warranty/Arctic%20Spas%20Warranty%20English.pdf
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Just read the warranty it's not mis leading.
http://www.arcticspas.com/downloads/warranty/Arctic%20Spas%20Warranty%20English.pdf
Link goes to 2007 warranty (apart from addition of Onzen, there probably were not many changes. But it's not my department and I haven't compared them).
2008 warranty will likely not be posted until our new web site goes up (sorry, no ETA).
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http://www.bullfrogspas.com/pages/customer-warranties.asp
http://www.sundancespas.com/CustomerCare/CustomerCare.html
Sorry to do that to you guys - in a hurry.
Will join in on a "specifics" discussion later if anyone desires.
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Marquis' is, I believe.
Term
No longer. They dropped it for 2008.
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No longer. They dropped it for 2008.
Oh...did not know. Sorry. :-[
The genius of the Arctic Warranty is encapsulated below for those that dare to "read betwixt the lines"...
Its a great selling feature but keep in mind to get the LSE series they have to invest in the Onzene system, upgraded lights, fiberglass flooring, etc. So in turn Arctic has made quite a bit up front on the deal. Dont worry Arctic has posted some incredible years this decade and has been one of Canadas most profitable businesses at least a couple years in a row.
I say kudos to them...it is a very strategic marketing plan and I would imagine it is difficult to compete against if presented properly. :)
Terminator
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Just read the warranty it's not mis leading.
http://www.arcticspas.com/downloads/warranty/Arctic%20Spas%20Warranty%20English.pdf
I read and I think is it mis-leading. People will remember the LIFETIME wording and when their shells cracks in 7 years they are out of luck.
Warranting the fiberglass structure for a lifetime is equivalent to me selling a 1" piece of galvanized steel and warranting it for life.
What the warranty states is clear but what most customer have no understanding of the fiberglass structure. So they will read that and think "oh lifetime warranty that is great".
I doubt it that any manufacturer that uses fiberglass has ever had a claim against them on it.
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I'll try to make it clear for you dipstick. You have an acrylic surface with a fiberglass backing. The acrylic surface is warrantied for 5 years. The fiberglass is warrantied for a lifetime. Does that make it better for ya?
How is that differnent then the Jacuzzi warranty, other than the shell is warrantied for 10 years.
Not so sure that was a good idea Bonibelle. The wolves are starting to come out. ::)
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How is that differnent the the Jacuzzi warranty, other than the shell is warrantied for 10 years.
The Jacuzzi's is twice as long? :-X
Term
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The Jacuzzi's is twice as long? :-X
Term
Huh??? :-?
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10 year shell
7 year shell structure
5 year equipment
5 year plumbing
2 year pretty much everything else
How is that twice as long, or am I missing something here??
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Not so sure that was a good idea Bonibelle. The wolves are starting to come out. ::)
You may need to call these guys...
(http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b206/EastTexasSpa/bearcavalry.jpg)
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I did not mean to single out Artic, there are many companies out there that do this.
I have nothing against Artic, I think they make a fine tub, I have just encountered the scenario with a cracked spa and the customer thinks they have a lifetime warranty.
Most of the upper tier manufactures basically have the same warranty, the real questions is how well the manufactures facilitates it and how much do they use the exclusions part of their warranty.
If a warranty states "MANUFACTURES DEFECTS" then pretty much after the first year you could get out of paying warranty. Most manufactures defects happen early in the life of a product, most stuff that happens after the first year is typically caused by the consumer.
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How is that twice as long, or am I missing something here??
I was referring to the shell warranty, as I thought you were. :-[
And don't call me dipstick!
Termstick
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I've had a lot of fun with ya'll today, but I'm taking my family to Papacita's for some good ol' Tex Mex! Ya'll behave and be kind to one another, not like ravenous wolves or the Bear Cavalry will chew your ass up!
Termacito
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7 years? Lifetime?
In the US the courts have already ruled that "lifetime" equates to 7 years.
As for separate surface AND structural warranties, this has pretty much been an industry standard from the beginning.
"Manufacturers defects"............... A number of years ago there was an ozonator manufacturer, and ALL their ozonators failed in just under a year. They had their attorney send out letters saying they weren't covered under warranty as the reason for failure was NOT a manufacturing defect, but was in fact a DESIGN defect (the part that was failing simply couldn't withstand the ozone concentration is was being subjected to)...... Soon after, their phone number was dissconnected and they became unreachable..
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10 year shell structure- Jacuzzi spas are warranted against water loss due to defects in the spa shell for 10 years from date of purchase
7 years shell surface- Jacuzzi spas are warranted against blistering,cracking, or delaminating of the interior surface of the spa shell from date of purchase.
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10 year shell structure- Jacuzzi spas are warranted against water loss due to defects in the spa shell for 10 years from date of purchase
7 years shell surface- Jacuzzi spas are warranted against blistering,cracking, or delaminating of the interior surface of the spa shell from date of purchase.
So in summary one warranty covers 7 years on the acrylic/10 on the fiberglass and the other covers 5 on the acrylic/lifetime on the fiberglass (ignoring Dr. Spa's point about "lifetime"). I'd prefer the longer coverage on the acrylic where you're much more apt to have an issue if anything arises but at the same time I would not buy one over the other based on this.
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Oh...did not know. Sorry. :-[
The genius of the Arctic Warranty is encapsulated below for those that dare to "read betwixt the lines"...
I say kudos to them...it is a very strategic marketing plan and I would imagine it is difficult to compete against if presented properly. :)
Terminator
Sorry it took so long to get back to you Term, busy selling spas this afternoon. Actually sold one of those darn LSE's a few minutes ago. Since you like taking my points from one thread to the next, Ill explain those comments. Since someone was trying to say that Arctics 10 year warranty would take them to the woodshed, and bite them in the rearend in the longrun, I wanted to point out that Arctic was actually doing quite well in the biz and to not second guess the strategy. Making money is the key, and if Arctic is showing large profits then its hard to blame em. We dont really want to start pointing fingers on what manufacturers posted LARGE losses in profits in 2007. Trust me.
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Sorry it took so long to get back to you Term, busy selling spas this afternoon. Actually sold one of those darn LSE's a few minutes ago. Since you like taking my points from one thread to the next, Ill explain those comments. Since someone was trying to say that Arctics 10 year warranty would take them to the woodshed, and bite them in the rearend in the longrun, I wanted to point out that Arctic was actually doing quite well in the biz and to not second guess the strategy. Making money is the key, and if Arctic is showing large profits then its hard to blame em. We dont really want to start pointing fingers on what manufacturers posted LARGE losses in profits in 2007. Trust me.
That "someone" was me, and you are misrepresenting what I said. I was curious about stats years 6-10. Sure I predicted the possibility of it biting them in the butt in the long run, especially if there is no vender support. It was stated this warranty has been in existence since 2002, so there would be no stats for years 6-10. Now you say Arctic was "doing quite well in the biz" and "Arctic is showing large profits". How do you, as a dealer, know how well they are doing?
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That "someone" was me, and you are misrepresenting what I said. I was curious about stats years 6-10. Sure I predicted the possibility of it biting them in the butt in the long run, especially if there is no vender support. It was stated this warranty has been in existence since 2002, so there would be no stats for years 6-10. Now you say Arctic was "doing quite well in the biz" and "Arctic is showing large profits". How do you, as a dealer, know how well they are doing?
So technically I wasnt misrepresenting what you said, cause you are concerned about it biting them in the long run. Arctic is doing well, because quite frankly they are one of the few manufacturer that saw a increase in production in 2007. They consistently receive awards yearly for being one of the top manufacturers in Canada as well. Not trying to toot the horn here you guys are the ones who keep bringing up possible negative aspects to their brilliant warranty. Just defending thats all. Now back to what this thread is intended for and everyone stating their warranties for the consumers.
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Making money is the key,
Amen! I've been touting that since I've first started posting here. Capitalism is KING!
and if Arctic is showing large profits then its hard to blame em.
Who do you feel on this forum is blaming them? We're ALL in business to make money.:-?
We dont really want to start pointing fingers on what manufacturers posted LARGE losses in profits in 2007. Trust me.
Why not? I think it would be interesting reading. Are you referring to Jacuzzi/Sundance, Marquis, D-1, Artesian, Maax/Coleman, Watkins, Thermospa?
If you have information, I think it would be great to post it. People appreciate honesty, candor and forthrightness as opposed to veiled insinuations. If I had the figures, I'd probably post it. I did something similiar before and ruffled a few feathers. Most people appreciated it.
For the record, I offered my sincere "props" on a pretty sharp idea regarding ya'lls warranty: load it up on the front end by having the customer pay more money to cover any potential problems down the road. Nothing wrong about that at all and I don't think anyone is criticizing it. I'm just pointing out the "maybe not so obvious" to folks. I think it's a smart move. It just is what it is.
Term
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Arctic must be doing real well since the inception of the new Mexican labor force its bringing in. Are these new employees getting paid around $18 per hour or Canadian minimum wage. Sorry to go off topic but the door opened when large profits were emntioned. mentioned
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Arctic must be doing real well since the inception of the new Mexican labor force its bringing in. Are these new employees getting paid around $18 per hour or Canadian minimum wage. Sorry to go off topic but the door opened when large profits were emntioned. mentioned
So, you have a problem with mexicans??? Seems like an awful bold statement to me, for a world thats supposed to be in the 21st century.
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Arctic must be doing real well since the inception of the new Mexican labor force its bringing in. Are these new employees getting paid around $18 per hour or Canadian minimum wage. Sorry to go off topic but the door opened when large profits were emntioned. mentioned
I didn't know Canada had such a high minimum wage.
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I dont have any issues with Mexicans I will take an issue of exploitation for capital gain if it happens. Some companies in Northern Alberta claim Labor shortages as a simple result of not wanting to pay wages. The economy is booming in that area and a multitude of people have ended up working for the oil & energy companies in related areas for great pay. So when companies that need a labor force cant find anyone in Northern Alberta its simply because the pay isnt competitive.
That is the main reason I bring the previous question up. If Arctic is making record profits they should have no problem paying top wage then???
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Just for shitz & giggles, it would be interesting to know if any of these warranties are transferrable to a new owner if the spa is sold to a second owner?
Good point. I'll keep reading.
:)
wwht
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7 years? Lifetime?
In the US the courts have already ruled that "lifetime" equates to 7 years.
As for separate surface AND structural warranties, this has pretty much been an industry standard from the beginning.
"Manufacturers defects"............... A number of years ago there was an ozonator manufacturer, and ALL their ozonators failed in just under a year. They had their attorney send out letters saying they weren't covered under warranty as the reason for failure was NOT a manufacturing defect, but was in fact a DESIGN defect (the part that was failing simply couldn't withstand the ozone concentration is was being subjected to)...... Soon after, their phone number was dissconnected and they became unreachable..
Hey, would that be the same "design defect" that blew up the Challenger, or more like a "wardrobe malfunction"??
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If Marquis dropped the transfer program then that only leaves one
I guess Keith Scott knows something the rest dont...
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I didn't know Canada had such a high minimum wage.
Yeah!! I wonder what they pay a good ICU nurse!! :D
WWHT
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Yeah!! I wonder what they pay a good ICU nurse!! :D
WWHT
I believe its around $33 or more per hour The Minimum wage will be at $10 per in 2 yrs
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Shoot!! It has taken so long for me to get to the >$25 I make. I wonder what staffing patterns they have. ANy Canadian Nurses out there--I know I am getting way off track. But, like you guys sellin' tubs, I am passionate about my career. But the health care system is different.
But, like my signature says--the grass is always greener because the bulls**t is better!!!
But, If I ever decide on a career change--maybe it won't be the Wal Mart Greeter! :) [smiley=happy.gif]
WWHT
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Just for shitz & giggles, it would be interesting to know if any of these warranties are transferrable to a new owner if the spa is sold to a second owner?
Good point. I'll keep reading.
:)
wwht
WWHT,
Here's what MS offers re: transfer of warranty:
"Master Spas allows the
plumbing and equipment warranty to be
transferred to a successor owner of the
premises where the spa was originally
installed during the normal warranty
period.An Ownership Warranty Transfer
form must be completed. This form is
available through Master Spas. This
limited warranty shall become void if the
spa is moved to a subsequence premises."
So, if you sell your home and not take your spa, the balance of the warranty could be transferred to a subsequent owner. 8-)
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The only issue I have with a transferable warranty is, What the heck do I care if its transferable, I am getting rid of it, selling the house, died what ever. Guess if I were giving it to my kid, but wondering how often would that really happens within a 5 year period, if that was the warranty's life? My son is only 7 and I am not going to give him my spa when he turns 12 and the warranty would be up anyway.
Marquis dealers how many times did/does this happen?? Mendo?
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JJ
I guess if you're selling your home or spa, it makes it more "sellable", like buying a 3 yr old used car.
WWHT
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. This
limited warranty shall become void if the
spa is moved to a subsequence premises."
So, if you sell your home and not take your spa, the balance of the warranty could be transferred to a subsequent owner. 8-)
Oh!
I re-read it. I wonder if this applies to most spa manufacturers, or do no other manuf. offer transferable warranties? (if it is already in this threas, I missed it--I just woke up) [smiley=rolleyes.gif]
WWHT
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Oh!
I re-read it. I wonder if this applies to most spa manufacturers, or do no other manuf. offer transferable warranties? (if it is already in this threas, I missed it--I just woke up) [smiley=rolleyes.gif]
WWHT
That is unique to Master. It'll transfer if someone is selling their house and the spa with it. The way Marquis did it had more value because it didn't matter if the spa was moved. It does a small amount of value to spas that are only a few years old but they really have it in place because they know that this situation will occur very rarely (spa still in warranty, sold as used but staying in the same location) so its a slick move to add a little Marketing value with very little risk (I'm not knocking them for it, its better than no transfer at all). Personally it’s still not a brand I'd be interested in but for those rare occasions when someone is purchasing a home with a fairly new one already there it’s a plus if the spa is properly priced.
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JJ
I guess if you're selling your home or spa, it makes it more "sellable", like buying a 3 yr old used car.
WWHT
True, but that wouldn't sway me one way or another to but the house or not. And it defiantly doesn't sway me to buy a new spa because it has a transferable warranty.
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Guess I'll add my two cents here...I wanted a good warranty on my hot tub because, in spite of the time I spent on here..and the research that I did,..I still didn't know much about the mechanics of a hot tub..And if someone asked me What would you expect would go wrong first...or what should last the longest?..again, I had no idea. So I really wanted a decent warranty.
If, like Term suggested, the buyer could buy the tub without a warranty..I would have elected to have a warranty just because I didn't know much about the life of this expensive hot water heater on my deck...All that being said, I don't typically get extended warranties on appliances or even vehicles, so why is this different? I guess partially because there aren't reliability figures for hot tubs..I can't look on Consumer Reports for track records on pumps and shells..etc.
As far as a warranty being transfered, My Marquis has the transferable warranty. The only thing that I really derived from that was that the manufacturer was confident enough in the product to extend the warranty to different owners. That spoke volumes to me. So that was a plus, but only from that aspect.
But since I really didn't look at resale value on my tub, being able to transfer it to a new owner had minimal value from that perspective...Wow this sounds confusing even to me :o
So I guess I feel that a warranty is pretty important to a buyer, at least it was to me.
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Hey, after I re-read about MS transf. warranty--I saw that it only transfers if the spa is not moved.
I wonder, what if the owner moves, and takes the spa??
I would assume ( ::)) that the warranty wouldn't be void.
WWHT ;)
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Why is having mexican workers an issue? If I'm not mistaken Hot Spings/Caldera has a factory in Mexico?
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Guess I'll add my two cents here...I wanted a good warranty on my hot tub because, in spite of the time I spent on here..and the research that I did,..I still didn't know much about the mechanics of a hot tub..And if someone asked me What would you expect would go wrong first...or what should last the longest?..again, I had no idea. So I really wanted a decent warranty.
If, like Term suggested, the buyer could buy the tub without a warranty..I would have elected to have a warranty just because I didn't know much about the life of this expensive hot water heater on my deck...All that being said, I don't typically get extended warranties on appliances or even vehicles, so why is this different? I guess partially because there aren't reliability figures for hot tubs..I can't look on Consumer Reports for track records on pumps and shells..etc.
As far as a warranty being transfered, My Marquis has the transferable warranty. The only thing that I really derived from that was that the manufacturer was confident enough in the product to extend the warranty to different owners. The spoke volumes to me. So that was a plus, but only from that aspect.
But since I really didn't look at resale value on my tub, and therefore being able to transfer it to a new owner had minimal value from that perspective...Wow this sounds confusing even to me :o
So I guess I feel that a warranty is pretty important to a buyer, at least it was to me.
BB--
YOU SAID IT!!
That is where I stand. Where this whole discussion started was with spa's I am interested in (looking to buy a new one) and the Limelight line got me googly eyed and I liked the price, but the it was discovered the base warranty is 3 years.
Seems most of the models chatted about on this forum, and not chatted about, see to have the basic 5 year warranty.
But, again, looking at spas, it came to my attention that in Arctic spas, the difference between all models and the SE is all models, but the SE, have a 5 year warranty.
THe SE has a 10 year warranty. Of course, like Termie says, it comes with a price. So, I haven't decided, if we go with Arctic, if we would go for the SE or other models. Seems like it wouldn't be a bad move to just have a 5 year warranty, since that is what everyone else seems to have.
But, you said it---I am not a mechanic==only a human mechanic (RN) :o and I don't want to mess with parts (of the spa variety).
Thanks for your input and opinion.
WWHT ;D :)
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Arctic must be doing real well since the inception of the new Mexican labor force its bringing in. Are these new employees getting paid around $18 per hour or Canadian minimum wage. Sorry to go off topic but the door opened when large profits were mentioned.
The minimum wage varies by province, so there is no national minimum. Effective April 1, the Alberta minimum wage will be $8.40/hr according to an official web site. (http://employment.alberta.ca/cps/rde/xchg/hre/hs.xsl/998.html)
All our workers, regardless of origin, are paid on the same scale, which starts at $14/hr and goes up from there. Considerably above minimum wage. (http://www.canada.com/edmontonjournal/news/story.html?id=635a9b90-3476-4cd4-bfa7-3fa62ad778b2&k=82380)
Arctic Spas is one of several Alberta companies that have turned to guest workers to supply labour needs. See for example this story : http://www.nationalpost.com/news/canada/story.html?id=396723
I can't say that we are 'doing real well' as a direct result of the Mexican guys and gals being here, but they are proving to be excellent workers and are certainly helping us meet our production goals.
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Why is having mexican workers an issue? If I'm not mistaken Hot Spings/Caldera has a factory in Mexico?
I was told by my Caldera muanufacturer was in Mexico. Hell, maybe Arctic is tired of the lazy me-oriented American (though I can't speak for the Canadians) that wants everything for nothing. and maybe the Mexicans will actually work for a buck.
Anyway it's all talk. :(
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I can't say that we are 'doing real well' as a direct result of the Mexican guys and gals being here, but they are proving to be excellent workers and are certainly helping us meet our production goals.
Well, looks like a Canadian spoke for himself--wanting good workers, and wherever they come from====too bad we can't learn from that. (BTW, Tom, see my previous post in reference.) 8-)
WWHT
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Please don't compare an Arctic Spas Legend, Legend Extreme or even a Legend SE to most other brands highest jet package.
Arctic Signature and Ultra are more closely compared to the higher jetting packages of most brands. Look at number of pump/number of jets. But not just the number of jets but quality of jets. All Arctic Spa jets will spin. Thus hitting a greater surface area of your body. Most brands have quite a few jets (if not most of there jets) that shoot straight out. Not as therapeutic. So in an 8' Arctic Signature it has 33 jets with 2 pumps.
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But, again, looking at spas, it came to my attention that in Arctic spas, the difference between all models and the SE is all models, but the SE, have a 5 year warranty.
THe SE has a 10 year warranty. Of course, like Termie says, it comes with a price. So, I haven't decided, if we go with Arctic, if we would go for the SE or other models. Seems like it wouldn't be a bad move to just have a 5 year warranty, since that is what everyone else seems to have.
quote]
The Legend SE isnt just a Arctic Spa with a 10 year warranty stamped on it. It comes fully loaded, and is one of the finer hot tubs are the market today. A Legend Extreme and a Legend SE do have the same number of pumps and jets(75), but the LSE has much more. It comes standard with the Forever Floor, Deluxe Northern Lights, and the Onzen water maintenance system as well. So you arent getting just 5 more years of warranty, you are getting all of the previous mentioned as well. Now you can add Deluxe Northern Lights and the Onzen and the Forever Floor to the Legend Extreme as well, but if you do that you are better off getting the LSE with the 10 years full warranty.
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But, again, looking at spas, it came to my attention that in Arctic spas, the difference between all models and the SE is all models, but the SE, have a 5 year warranty.
THe SE has a 10 year warranty. Of course, like Termie says, it comes with a price. So, I haven't decided, if we go with Arctic, if we would go for the SE or other models. Seems like it wouldn't be a bad move to just have a 5 year warranty, since that is what everyone else seems to have.
quote]
The Legend SE isnt just a Arctic Spa with a 10 year warranty stamped on it. It comes fully loaded, and is one of the finer hot tubs are the market today. A Legend Extreme and a Legend SE do have the same number of pumps and jets(75), but the LSE has much more. It comes standard with the Forever Floor, Deluxe Northern Lights, and the Onzen water maintenance system as well. So you arent getting just 5 more years of warranty, you are getting all of the previous mentioned as well. Now you can add Deluxe Northern Lights and the Onzen and the Forever Floor to the Legend Extreme as well, but it you do that you are better off getting the LSE with the 10 years full warranty.
Ed--
Thanks for clarifying.
But since we were just talking about warranties--that's why I didn't include all of the other differences. But, for Termies' sake, when you pay that much more, it isn't JUST for the warranty!!! ;)
Chrisi :)
PS I am still waiting for a nurse smiley!! HEE HEEE
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Sorry to go off topic but the door opened when large profits were mentioned
Large profits? Wow, that sent me scurrying back through the thread! The actual quote was "...if Arctic is showing large profits..."
Note that little two-letter word. The one that goes I plus F. Kindly don't mistake a conditional clause for a statement of fact. ;D
Is it true? I neither confirm nor deny. I'm not at liberty to say, and even if I were, I wouldn't, because I can't, so I won't. :o
I just noticed that there are three Arctic reps on this thread, so I'm out of here and will leave it to Water Boy and Guru.
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But, again, looking at spas, it came to my attention that in Arctic spas, the difference between all models and the SE is all models, but the SE, have a 5 year warranty.
THe SE has a 10 year warranty. Of course, like Termie says, it comes with a price. So, I haven't decided, if we go with Arctic, if we would go for the SE or other models. Seems like it wouldn't be a bad move to just have a 5 year warranty, since that is what everyone else seems to have.
quote]
The Legend SE isnt just a Arctic Spa with a 10 year warranty stamped on it. It comes fully loaded, and is one of the finer hot tubs are the market today. A Legend Extreme and a Legend SE do have the same number of pumps and jets(75), but the LSE has much more. It comes standard with the Forever Floor, Deluxe Northern Lights, and the Onzen water maintenance system as well. So you arent getting just 5 more years of warranty, you are getting all of the previous mentioned as well. Now you can add Deluxe Northern Lights and the Onzen and the Forever Floor to the Legend Extreme as well, but if you do that you are better off getting the LSE with the 10 years full warranty.
So whats the deal with the "Forever floor"? Whats wrong with the normal floor of your spa that it warrants a forever floor? Why not just put a forever floor in every spa?
Curious as I don't have a arctic dealer around here to even sell against?
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Tom, thank you for the clarification on this issue. Im glad you can read what I posted & Arctic sounds like they are doing right by the folks you brought in. Now if the rest of you Arctic folk re-read my posts on this issue you will relax and not get so defensive. In regards to what others do in Mexico, its not in my country and "if" Watkins was exploiting the workforce down there it would have came out by now and their sales wouldnt be what it is.
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So whats the deal with the "Forever floor"? Whats wrong with the normal floor of your spa that it warrants a forever floor? Why not just put a forever floor in every spa?
Curious as I don't have a arctic dealer around here to even sell against?
The real question should be, if its called the "Forever Floor" why is it warrantied only for 5 years? Irony???
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But, for Termies' sake, when you pay that much more, it isn't JUST for the warranty!!! ;)
I never said it was.
Term
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The real question should be, if its called the "Forever Floor" why is it warrantied only for 5 years? Irony???
10 Years on Legend SE's
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7 years? Lifetime?
In the US the courts have already ruled that "lifetime" equates to 7 years.
Doc,
Do you know where I could find this in print? I keep hearing that claim, but no one has ever been able to point me to a law in state or federal where a lifetime really means 7 years.
P.S. For the record, I have personaly seen D-1 replace a spa that was 13 years old because the surface had cracked and D-1 offeres a lifetime structural and surface warranty.
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10 Years on Legend SE's
So is forever then considered 10 years? Doesn't matter to me, but why is a forever floor needed from the std floor, or is it just something to add to the price, kinda like undercoating for a car?
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I don't know if it's an actual written law, but is based on precedent setting lawsuits.
By all means, research into what setting precedence in a legal ruling is all about (it would take me days to properly explain it).... (for background, my ex is one of those scum sucking sleaze bag sharks)
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The real question should be, if its called the "Forever Floor" why is it warrantied only for 5 years? Irony???
the other question would be why do a bunch of major manufacturers only use wood, foam, or how about this nothing for a floor?
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Ok, so the floor will last forever, but the rest of the spa is going to fall apart in 20 years? HEY, but the floor will still be there!
I don't think I've ever seen a spa that needed to be replaced because the "floor" failed. But, it is a nifty selling point
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So since no one wanted to answer me I looked it up for myself, Its a freaking ABS pan for the most part. ;D STANDARD on Jacuzzi, lets see who else Beach comber, Marquis,Coleman who else am I missing? It is a nice feature though!
I thought it had to do with the shell itself. So your std floor is just wood then?
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Ok, so the floor will last forever, but the rest of the spa is going to fall apart in 20 years? HEY, but the floor will still be there!
I don't think I've ever seen a spa that needed to be replaced because the "floor" failed. But, it is a nifty selling point
Being in the Pac NW we have removed quite a few spas with rotten framing only after 5 to 10 years. specially those with a deck built around them.
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Ok, so the floor will last forever, but the rest of the spa is going to fall apart in 20 years? HEY, but the floor will still be there!
I don't think I've ever seen a spa that needed to be replaced because the "floor" failed. But, it is a nifty selling point
Ever try to move a spa with a foam floor after it sat there about 4 years? Usually when we have done it the floor has deterioted so much that everything falls out when you pick it up. When the shell has lifetime warranty on it and the floor lasts a lifetime, it would make sense money wise to make the necessary repairs to keep the same spa. Or better yet it has more value when you trade it in or sell it for a new one!!!
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So since no one wanted to answer me I looked it up for myself, Its a freaking ABS pan for the most part. ;D STANDARD on Jacuzzi, lets see who else Beach comber, Marquis,Coleman who else am I missing? It is a nice feature though!
I thought it had to do with the shell itself. So your std floor is just wood then?
ABS pan??? Thats not even close, its a complete one piece fiberglass shell that your spa is setting on. Its not a ABS pan.
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JJ
Having just checked the Wesite, ALL Arctics come with the forever floor.
BTW,, hubby and I were just checking the Jacuzzi website. Can you tell me about the lights (I like bling!!)--i.e. LED lights other than the cool=looking dual waterfall??
Running out of time to keep looking--my turn to go to work. :(
Thanx all--
Chrisi WWHT :D
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Ever try to move a spa with a foam floor after it sat there about 4 years? Usually when we have done it the floor has deterioted so much that everything falls out when you pick it up. When the shell has lifetime warranty on it and the floor lasts a lifetime, it would make sense money wise to make the necessary repairs to keep the same spa. Or better yet it has more value when you trade it in or sell it for a new one!!!
GA--
seems like a forever floor is a great concept to me, a newbie to the spa industry.
Chrisi, WWHT
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ABS or Acrylonitrile butadiene styrene, (chemical formula (C8H8· C4H6·C3H3N)n) is a common thermoplastic used to make light, rigid, molded products.
Forever Floor = Fiberglass floor, not ABS plastic.
Big difference there imo.
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Here's a picture of a 1986 HotSpring Sovereign with a foam floor and wooden frame we took in on trade a few weeks ago:
(http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b206/EastTexasSpa/DSC04775_edited-1.jpg)
The cabinet needed to be restained, so I guess our service techs will do it. It's for sale if anyone wants to come to Texas and git it. :)
Term
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JJ
Having just checked the Wesite, ALL Arctics come with the forever floor.
Chrisi WWHT :D
Maybe it has changed but I've always know it to be an option (not sure how much) and the website still quotes it as such.
Already renowned for our sturdy wood floor, standard on every Arctic Spa, our engineers decided to raise the bar yet again by developing the Forever Floor®. Composed of hand-rolled fiberglass composites, this floor is impervious to moisture, pests, and time. It completely eliminates the need for foundation materials like concrete, decking, or blocks! Just set it on the ground, hook it up, fill and use...installation has never been easier and your floor will last forever in any conditions. In addition, your portable spa is now truly portable. If you move spa locations in your yard or if you move across town, the foundation comes with you.
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It is still a option Spa Tech and JJ. Most people go with the Forever Floor. We sold two last year with wood floors, and that is because they went indoors.
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Forever floor is a good concept. Since I've been working with Bullfrog they swithced from treated lumber on a sheet of ABS to solid ABS molding.
The old way worked fine enough (I do hate removing foam bottom spas - goarctic is right on there). - it seems Term is showing me that is NOT always the case - conceded.
But - the solid molded ABS has a number of advantages. Easier handling and much more attractive over time being my favorite. It will last longer than the wood, and it is more precise than wood construction.
*IMO - Arctic's fiberglass solid "Forever Floor" will have all of the same advantages.
**JJ - you missed Limelight (don't get too mad at me ;D)
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Here's a picture of a 1986 HotSpring Sovereign with a foam floor and wooden frame we took in on trade a few weeks ago:
(http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b206/EastTexasSpa/DSC04775_edited-1.jpg)
The cabinet needed to be restained, so I guess our service techs will do it. It's for sale if anyone wants to come to Texas and git it. :)
Term
Good pic, looks to be in pretty good shape still!
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Forever floor is a good concept. Since I've been working with Bullfrog they swithced from treated lumber on a sheet of ABS to solid ABS molding.
The old way worked fine enough (I do hate removing foam bottom spas - goarctic is right on there).
But - the solid molded ABS has a number of advantages. Easier handling and much more attractive over time being my favorite. It will last longer than the wood, and it is more precise than wood construction.
*IMO - Arctic's fiberglass solid "Forever Floor" will have all of the same advantages.
**JJ - you missed Limelight (don't get too mad at me ;D)
lots of good points there bauer
fiberglass>>>abs>>>wood>>>>foam
IMO
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ABS pan??? Thats not even close, its a complete one piece fiberglass shell that your spa is setting on. Its not a ABS pan.
Oh, since its fiberglass that makes all the difference in the world. ::)
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In the application being discussed - equivalent amounts (i.e. - both are the same thickness) of either material should perform equally well - as in virtually NO TROUBLE.
Either material being ABS or fiberglass.
JJ - I think he means a solid skid vs. a flimsy 1/8" pan. Old Bullfrogs had the pan - it wasn't nearly what a solid skid is.
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Maybe it has changed but I've always know it to be an option (not sure how much) and the website still quotes it as such.
Already renowned for our sturdy wood floor, standard on every Arctic Spa, our engineers decided to raise the bar yet again by developing the Forever Floor®. Composed of hand-rolled fiberglass composites, this floor is impervious to moisture, pests, and time. It completely eliminates the need for foundation materials like concrete, decking, or blocks! Just set it on the ground, hook it up, fill and use...installation has never been easier and your floor will last forever in any conditions. In addition, your portable spa is now truly portable. If you move spa locations in your yard or if you move across town, the foundation comes with you.
Thanks for re-reading--I was just picking up highlights, since I will be signing off for now to go to work.
;D
Thanks again yinz guys!! ;D
Chrisi WWHT
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The forever floor is just ANOTHER ARCTIC ADVANTAGE. The spa can be set on any flat level base. Example grass, dirt, pea gravel, paver stones, and many more options. It's just one more thing Arctic does that everyone has the try to tare down. It's a better way to build a spa. Arctic isn't saying that ABS, plastic, foam, or wood (Arctic Standard Floor) is a bad way.
Oh and I have sold only a small percentage of spas without the forever floor.
How come every thing that Arctic does has to be shot down by everyone else? Why isn't this a good concept?
Arctic makes a great spa!
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Simple, apparently everything Arctic does is super different but its not the case. You can set virtually any spa on a level base and it will fair fine. The inside plumbing is no different its just clear and Arctic glues on the outside instead of inside the fitting there's more but who wants to hear it all ::)
PS I will give credit to Arctic for coming up with the slots for the forklift that was a great idea
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Simple, apparently everything Arctic does is super different but its not the case. You can set virtually any spa on a level base and it will fair fine.to Arctic for coming up with the slots for the forklift that was a great idea
Not true Pathy. I know that in Hot Springs pre delivery guide it says that a 4 inch think concrete pad is required for two of their spas, and that it is recommended for five of their other spas. Many other brands say the same.
A concrete pad is NOT required with any Arctic Spa with a Forever Floor.
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Simple, apparently everything Arctic does is super different but its not the case. You can set virtually any spa on a level base and it will fair fine. The inside plumbing is no different its just clear and Arctic glues on the outside instead of inside the fitting there's more but who wants to hear it all ::)
PS I will give credit to Arctic for coming up with the slots for the forklift that was a great idea
until you go to move it several years later and the motor that used to be in the spa is now yard art.
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Maybe there is more bickering on this website in 2008. If we start debating shell and siding colors I'm turning in my forum badge!
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Composed of hand-rolled fiberglass composites
Hand-rolled no more. As of 2008, all our Forever Floors are pressure-moulded fiberglass. Same warranty AFAIK (just to stay on topic)
You may be wondering why the web site has not been updated for 2008. The reason is a completely revamped site coming "soon".
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I like the Forever Floor quite a bit - IMO it's every bit as good as what I sell in the Bullfrog full ABS skid.
It is definitely another Arctic Advantage.
I would, however, like to see some sort of backing for the claims that fiberglass is better than the space-age ABS in this application.
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How come every thing that Arctic does has to be shot down by everyone else?
This seems to happen on forums where someone claims significant superiority. In our case, of course, it's totally true. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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It really doesn't matter what any of us spa sellin' goobers think, it's what the CUSTOMERS think. And they speak with their wallets:
(http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b206/EastTexasSpa/spasales2006-07.jpg)
Term
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You may be wondering why the web site has not been updated for 2008. The reason is a completely revamped site coming "soon".
Great, now the website is going to be superior as well??? ;D ;) ;D ;) ;D ;)
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It really doesn't matter what any of us spa sellin' goobers think, it's what the CUSTOMERS think. And they speak with their wallets:
(http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b206/EastTexasSpa/spasales2006-07.jpg)
Term
Term,
I would love to see company abc and d replaced with company names...of course then the s@#t will really hit the fan
"Lets get ready to rumble"
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Term,
I would love to see company abc and d replaced with company names...of course then the s@#t will really hit the fan
"Lets get ready to rumble"
In all fairness, I will say that "A" is not for Arctic, nor is "B" for Bullfrog, "C" is not Coleman, and "D" is not Dynasty....in case some of you were wondering.
Term
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(for background, my ex is one of those scum sucking sleaze bag sharks)
Ouch! :o
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I can't remember the last time a thread got up to 7 pages in 48 hours! ::)
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It really doesn't matter what any of us spa sellin' goobers think, it's what the CUSTOMERS think. And they speak with their wallets:
(http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b206/EastTexasSpa/spasales2006-07.jpg)
Term
funny, I bet the same graph can be made for hamburgers sold worldwide, but I wouldnt say McDonalds has the best hamburgers!!!
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funny, I bet the same graph can be made for hamburgers sold worldwide, but I wouldnt say McDonalds has the best hamburgers!!!
Good point.
Having the most dealers does not necessarily mean you have the best product or technology.
Staying power to build that kind of dealer network is a good sign though.
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Gotta hand it to you Water Boy..you sure got things hopping on here.. ;) ;)
Even though we have moved off topic!!
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Gotta hand it to you Water Boy..you sure got things hopping on here.. ;) ;)
Even though we have moved off topic!!
Yeah that was a fablous idea you had there. I think maybe you knew all along what kind of storm this would cause. ::) Last time I take your advice!! Oh well, made for a fun couple of days.
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Actually there was some science behind my thought process...and I honestly thought that dealers would post the warranties and they would be pretty much comparable..which would kind of define the top level spa manufacturers. Basically when someone asks about an off the wall brand, the warranty should give some reflection of the quality that the buyer can expect. :-?
So I didn't set you up to start a war, I mentioned it because I thought as a sales person/dealer, you would decide how important the warranty was and decide if it was an interesting topic to post. ;) And since Bill just celebrated his tub's birthday, and the end of his warranty period...it seemed to fit. :)
It is amazing to me how all this negative energy is put into a thread like this. :-/ Sorry if it upset anyone, but I do still have one more question.. ::).so here goes:
In light of the current financial situation, the downturn in the market or maybe just the economy in general, do you as dealers or company reps...see companies moving to shorter warranty periods to contain costs, or more robust warranties to encourage more sales?
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Good point.
Having the most dealers does not necessarily mean you have the best product or technology.
Staying power to build that kind of dealer network is a good sign though.
They definetely have staying power, but I would advise some to realize that in a tougher economy the consumer becomes smarter with their purchases. That bodes well for those dealers who maintain an excellent operation, and those that sell great products. It will no longer be as easy to just say its a certain brand and sell it solely off that name. I will say that most on this board already know this, thats why they take the time to be on this board and stay sharp. Those dealers who arent staying on top of their game will suffer in the long run
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No problem Boni, just giving you a hard time. ;)
Also thanks to Term, BauerN, and JJ for contributing to the original purpose of this thread! Too bad a few bad apples had to mess it all up.
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What is interesting about the pie chart is that, for the first time I'm told, 4 spa manufacturers account for over 50% of all sales worldwide. The pie is shrinking and the herd is thinning........consumers want value and stability and the companies that provide that will continue to be successful.
Everyone thinks their spa is the best, as they should. Most of the brands represented on this forum are wonderful products. Some of them are pure crap.
Once again, it doesn't matter one bit what we spa salesmen believe is the best spa... it is the customers that make that decision. I'm just truly thankful and feel very honored and fortunate that so many of them like what our company offers. :)
Term
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What is interesting about the pie chart is that, for the first time I'm told, 4 spa manufacturers account for over 50% of all sales worldwide. The pie is shrinking and the herd is thinning........consumers want value and stability and the companies that provide that will continue to be successful.
Everyone thinks their spa is the best, as they should. Most of the brands represented on this forum are wonderful products. Some of them are pure crap.
Once again, it doesn't matter one bit what we spa salesmen believe is the best spa... it is the customers that make that decision. I'm just truly thankful and feel very honored and fortunate that so many of them like what our company offers. :)
Term
as does mickey d's!
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By all means, research into what setting precedence in a legal ruling is all about (it would take me days to properly explain it).... (for background, my ex is one of those scum sucking sleaze bag sharks)[/quote]
Ouch, Ouch! That personally hurt!
But I guess "If the foo sh*ts......."
(good thing shark skin is tough)
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Dr. Spa™.... :-?
Can I get "Steve" Trademarked as well? :-/ 8-)
Steve
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Dr. Spa™.... :-?
Can I get "Steve" Trademarked as well? :-/ 8-)
Steve
Maybe in Canadia ;D
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funny, I bet the same graph can be made for hamburgers sold worldwide, but I wouldnt say McDonalds has the best hamburgers!!!
You know, I hear that a lot. I think it is flawed thinking. I like their burgers just fine - have you tried the new Angus burger? Jack in the Box is spending their ad money making fun of it - does that tell you they are worried?
Even though many people will step forward and knock McDonald's hamburgers, they still seem to outsell all others. So even if YOU don't like them, there are plenty of folks who do.
8-)
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You know, I hear that a lot. I think it is flawed thinking. I like their burgers just fine - have you tried the new Angus burger? Jack in the Box is spending their ad money making fun of it - does that tell you they are worried?
Even though many people will step forward and knock McDonald's hamburgers, they still seem to outsell all others. So even if YOU don't like them, there are plenty of folks who do.
8-)
Im not knocking the burger, just saying that more locations leads to more burgers. Doesnt mean that the burger is better. If someone wants to have a really good meal they tend to not go to McDonalds, even though they are the number one selling burger.
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I apologize that it took me this long to copy up a Coleman Warranty. Where is says Life Time, courts can say what they want, I will follow the letter of the warranty until I die off. There isn't anything in a hot tub warranty worth going to court over, lifetime is just as it says.
Listening to Bonnie Raitt on the new Sony splash sound system in my floor demo.....sweet tones
(http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc244/loosenupspas/warranty.jpg)
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I like the Forever Floor quite a bit...I would, however, like to see some sort of backing for the claims that fiberglass is better than the space-age ABS...
Ooh, a nice off-topic side trip! Well, a quick google gave me these:
- "PC/ABS 1851G10L is a polycarbonate/ABS blend that has been reinforced with 10% fiberglass by weight. The addition of fiberglass provides high tensile strength and rigidity while preserving optimum impact resistance." (http://www.mdayinc.com/data_sheets/pcabs/PCABS1000/PC-ABS1851G10L.pdf). Note that they add fiberglass to it for "strength and rigidity" while the bouncy plastic ABS gives good "impact resistance".
- "Fiberglass...provide
... a smooth finish on both sides, a controlled wall thickness, and/or ...compound curves, molded-in color, high strength to weight ratios...fiberglass-molded products also meet the FMVSS 302 flammability standard...Vacuum Formed ABS Plastic has become a standard for interior plastic parts...because of its relatively low cost" (http://www.arrowheadinc.com/Projects/fiberglass-plastic-truck-parts.php).
That's pretty clear - fiberglass is strong, ABS is flexible and cheap. I mean, 'low cost'. ::)
You can probably find some scientific data about shear strength, tensile strength etc. if you look. Let us know what you find.
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You know, I hear that a lot. I think it is flawed thinking. I like their burgers just fine - have you tried the new Angus burger? Jack in the Box is spending their ad money making fun of it - does that tell you they are worried?
Even though many people will step forward and knock McDonald's hamburgers, they still seem to outsell all others. So even if YOU don't like them, there are plenty of folks who do.
8-)
As soon you tried to say McDonalds has a good burger, you lost some credibility.
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As soon you tried to say McDonalds has a good burger, you lost some credibility.
Those are fighting words. My wife was a General Manager at McDonalds and she still loves there hamburgers best. She went to McDonalds University and saw the quality of hamburger they buy compared to competitors. To each their own....
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Ooh, a nice off-topic side trip! Well, a quick google gave me these:
- "PC/ABS 1851G10L is a polycarbonate/ABS blend that has been reinforced with 10% fiberglass by weight. The addition of fiberglass provides high tensile strength and rigidity while preserving optimum impact resistance." (http://www.mdayinc.com/data_sheets/pcabs/PCABS1000/PC-ABS1851G10L.pdf). Note that they add fiberglass to it for "strength and rigidity" while the bouncy plastic ABS gives good "impact resistance".
- "Fiberglass...provide
... a smooth finish on both sides, a controlled wall thickness, and/or ...compound curves, molded-in color, high strength to weight ratios...fiberglass-molded products also meet the FMVSS 302 flammability standard...Vacuum Formed ABS Plastic has become a standard for interior plastic parts...because of its relatively low cost" (http://www.arrowheadinc.com/Projects/fiberglass-plastic-truck-parts.php).
That's pretty clear - fiberglass is strong, ABS is flexible and cheap. I mean, 'low cost'. ::)
You can probably find some scientific data about shear strength, tensile strength etc. if you look. Let us know what you find.
Well not sure about other ABS pans, but the Jacuzzi base is not very flexible, and has done the job just fine for the last 20 years plus, its been around longer than Arctic spa's was a dream in someones head. The other issue is the dang spa just sits there, its not bouncing up and down and doing jump and jacks. As long as it holds up for what its designed to do who cares what its made of? All I know either hold up better than wood buried in a deck in the Pac NW.
I would say if the "Forever Floor" is the ticket why charge a customer for it. Jacuzzi does somewhere in the cost but a customer will never notice or question it. Whats the "Forever floor run the customer I am guess 3 to 500 on top of the price of the spa. Except the Legend which is already 12 grand?
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I'll take an "in-n-out" any day over a big mac. But if we are talking about a quality burger, i'll start the list.
1. fathers office (L.A.)
2. The apple tin (West L.A.)
3. Big mikes (Long Beach)
4. Santa Barbra Brewing Co. (Santa Barbra )
and if you like em greasy
TOMMY'S Chilli Burgers all over Los Angeles
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Well not sure about other ABS pans, but the Jacuzzi base is not very flexible, and has done the job just fine for the last 20 years plus, its been around longer than Arctic spa's was a dream in someones head. The other issue is the dang spa just sits there, its not bouncing up and down and doing jump and jacks. As long as it holds up for what its designed to do who cares what its made of? All I know either hold up better than wood buried in a deck in the Pac NW.
I would say if the "Forever Floor" is the ticket why charge a customer for it. Jacuzzi does somewhere in the cost but a customer will never notice or question it. Whats the "Forever floor run the customer I am guess 3 to 500 on top of the price of the spa. Except the Legend which is already 12 grand?
J.J.
Don't forget that the original Jacuzzi Pan Bottom was a fiberglass pan. It was "upgraded" to an A.B.S. pan since the fiberglass became brittle after a while.
Jacuzzi has been doing it for so long they know what works and what dosent. I find it funny when a small company comes up with what they think is a great idea, only to realize that Jacuzzi beat them to it by 20 years.
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J.J.
Don't forget that the original Jacuzzi Pan Bottom was a fiberglass pan. It was "upgraded" to an A.B.S. pan since the fiberglass became brittle after a while.
Jacuzzi has been doing it for so long they know what works and what dosent. I find it funny when a small company comes up with what they think is a great idea, only to realize that Jacuzzi beat them to it by 20 years.
Small company??? Maybe you can explain how Arctic is a small company. And may I ask if you have ever actually seen an Arctic Spa with your own eyes?
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Small company??? Maybe you can explain how Arctic is a small company. And may I ask if you have ever actually seen an Arctic Spa with your own eyes?
Well compared to the giants (Jacuzzi Hot Springs Sundance ) Artic does seem like a small company.
Small is not always a bad thing. I'm more impresses when you mix size with longevity.
For the record I look at every brand that shows up at the Aqua show or the N.S.P.I. show (or what ever they call it now) and yes i have looked at Artic several times
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J.J.
Don't forget that the original Jacuzzi Pan Bottom was a fiberglass pan. It was "upgraded" to an A.B.S. pan since the fiberglass became brittle after a while.
Jacuzzi has been doing it for so long they know what works and what dosent. I find it funny when a small company comes up with what they think is a great idea, only to realize that Jacuzzi beat them to it by 20 years.
this is directly from the predelivery instructions for a jacuzzi spa with the ABS floor
"We recommend a poured,
reinforced concrete slab with a minimum thickness of 4 inches (10 centimeters). Wood decking
is also acceptable provided it is constructed so that it meets the requirements outlined above"
the following is directly from Arctics Forever Floor descriptions
"Already renowned for our sturdy wood floor, standard on every Arctic Spa, our engineers decided to raise the bar yet again by developing the Forever Floor®. Composed of hand-rolled fiberglass composites, this floor is impervious to moisture, pests, and time. It completely eliminates the need for foundation materials like concrete, decking, or blocks! Just set it on the ground, hook it up, fill and use...installation has never been easier and your floor will last forever in any conditions. In addition, your portable spa is now truly portable. If you move spa locations in your yard or if you move across town, the foundation comes with you."
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Well compared to the giants (Jacuzzi Hot Springs Sundance ) Artic does seem like a small company.
Small is not always a bad thing. I'm more impresses when you mix size with longevity.
For the record I look at every brand that shows up at the Aqua show or the N.S.P.I. show (or what ever they call it now) and yes i have looked at Artic several times
Probably smaller than the mentioned, but Arctics/Coyotes are sold worldwide in many countries. Arctics presence will continue to get stronger and stronger each year, expect their US presence to be much larger starting in 2008.
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How long has this "new" floor been around? How long has Artic been building spas?
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How long has this "new" floor been around? How long has Artic been building spas?
I can say that the floor has held up nicely here in Kansas. Ive been selling it on all of our spas since 2002. Small time frame I know, but you cant get much more of a fluctuation of a climate than Kansas. We have sold the arctic line since 98, they have been building since the early 90's. I suppose you'll be like the HS clan and come up with some graph about why you had to be building spas in the 70's to be making a good spa.
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What in the world is so wrong with wood?
I have several customers that own HotSpring Spas that are a quarter of a century old or more that are made out of wood. They just keep on going...and going...and going.
It is somewhat frustrating that we build such durable spas. I'll be an old man by the time my existing customers are ready for a new one.
Term
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I suppose you'll be like the HS clan and come up with some graph about why you had to be building spas in the 70's to be making a good spa.
Where is this graph posted?
If you're referring to my piece o' the pie chart, your 70's guess is pretty dang close. That's per year, by the way. In thousands, just to be clear.
And it would also be safe to say, and I'm sure you would agree, they are VERY good spas.
Terminator
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Where is this graph posted?
If you're referring to my piece o' the pie chart, your 70's guess is pretty dang close. That's per year, by the way. In thousands, just to be clear.
And it would also be safe to say, and I'm sure you would agree, they are VERY good spas.
Terminator
Not disagreeing with you that they are very good spas, they have to be to be in business that long. I just dont think they are superior to the Arctic Spa line.
"What in the world is so wrong with wood?
I have several customers that own HotSpring Spas that are a quarter of a century old or more that are made out of wood. They just keep on going...and going...and going.
It is somewhat frustrating that we build such durable spas. I'll be an old man by the time my existing customers are ready for a new one.
Term "
Wood works just fine, and it obviously works fine for Watkins, and if your not going to move your spa and you dont mind putting the work into preparing a slab or base for the spa then nothing wrong whatsoever with a wood base. The Forever Floor (IMO) is just a better way of building a spa thats all. Surely you can admit that Term.
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Hey, Arctic guys, about the Arctics, they have a line of spas from Coyote--Could we talk about them?? How do they compare to Arctics in regards to warranty/workmanship/price...? The Chieftain looks pretty cool, except that other than the 2 massage seats, there aren't much other seating choices with alot of jets?? :question :question :question
Thanx--WWHT
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Not disagreeing with you that they are very good spas, they have to be to be in business that long. I just dont think they are superior to the Arctic Spa line.
"What in the world is so wrong with wood?
I have several customers that own HotSpring Spas that are a quarter of a century old or more that are made out of wood. They just keep on going...and going...and going.
It is somewhat frustrating that we build such durable spas. I'll be an old man by the time my existing customers are ready for a new one.
Term "
Wood works just fine, and it obviously works fine for Watkins, and if your not going to move your spa and you dont mind putting the work into preparing a slab or base for the spa then nothing wrong whatsoever with a wood base. The Forever Floor (IMO) is just a better way of building a spa thats all. Surely you can admit that Term.
Pressure treated wood, when constructed properly to distribute the weight evenly on the base of the tub, is designed to outlast the spa itself so the debate is somewhat moot don't you think? In the thousands of Beachcomber spas we sold, we instructed our customers to put the spa on ANY flat, level surface.
In no way did it require a concrete base and in fact, I never recommended a concrete base as concrete is a conductor of cold, can crack and is expensive. A proper wood structure can sit on greaa, sand, gravel and the warranty still applies on a Beachcomber spa. Other spas I imagine could do this as mentioned.
The "marketing" behind ABS floors (or the Forever floor) is outstanding and makes a great story! It's the reason other spas have followed suit. I did in turn, increase the overall cost to consumer though...
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Hey, Arctic guys, about the Arctics, they have a line of spas from Coyote--Could we talk about them?? How do they compare to Arctics in regards to warranty/workmanship/price...? The Chieftain looks pretty cool, except that other than the 2 massage seats, there aren't much other seating choices with alot of jets?? :question :question :question
Thanx--WWHT
Pricing is comparable with a slight downtick. Great workmanship, the warranty would be 3 years instead of 5 years. They have the same insulation system as the Arctic Spa, same pumps, same heaters, same control packs, same hosing, it also comes with the Castcore Cover. It has also has the option of adding all the bling (stereos, multicolored led lighting, etc.) The main difference would be it doesnt have the Forever Floor. Instead it comes with Rubber4xFloor, which is a tough, sealed, rubber exterior thats impervious to moisture, pests, and time. No need to pour a concrete base. Just needs to be on firm level ground. They also have several options as far as the exterior cabinet. You will have to check those out online or at your local dealer. I know what you mean, I really like the seating arrangement of the Chieftain. Great spa.
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I get the impression that the Arctic competitive advantage is the Forever Floor. Frankly I don't think customers buy a spa because of the base.
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I get the impression that the Arctic competitive advantage is the Forever Floor. Frankly I don't think customers buy a spa because of the base.
no its STARTS with the floor.
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I get the impression that the Arctic competitive advantage is the Forever Floor. Frankly I don't think customers buy a spa because of the base.
There are lots of things that can be shown to those that have open minds that show why Arctic builds a helluva spa.
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I get the impression that the Arctic competitive advantage is the Forever Floor. Frankly I don't think customers buy a spa because of the base.
you would be surprised, I have traded in lots of spas for this very reason. Nothing like opening up your cabinet here to a rotted out floor that has invited every critter in the neighborhood over for a spa party!
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I know what you mean, I really like the seating arrangement of the Chieftain. Great spa.
The seating is very similiar to the D1 Amore bay, with 2 huge seats and some other smaller barriered seating. I know our dealer has Coyotes, I think they had a Renegade, but it's been a while, it could have been a Chieftain. But, the 3 year warranty leaves that as a Tub I wouldn't want to purchase.
Still looking at the Tundra, though, and waiting to hear from my dealer.
Hoping I am not getting my hopes up too high, since it's the ""top o' the line" ;)
Thanks--Chrisi
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The seating is very similiar to the D1 Amore bay, with 2 huge seats and some other smaller barriered seating. I know our dealer has Coyotes, I think they had a Renegade, but it's been a while, it could have been a Chieftain. But, the 3 year warranty leaves that as a Tub I wouldn't want to purchase.
Still looking at the Tundra, though, and waiting to hear from my dealer.
Hoping I am not getting my hopes up too high, since it's the ""top o' the line" ;)
Thanks--Chrisi
Im not big on the 3 year warranty either! Thats why Im not good at selling those.
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The most interesting part of any warranty is ALWAYS the second page. I ALWAYS read the second page and strongly encourage any spa shopper to do so.
Unless you're considering a HotSpring Spa. Our warranty is only one page. The whole thing. :D
Remember, reading is fundamental.
Terminator (Voracious Reader)
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I get the impression that the Arctic competitive advantage is the Forever Floor. Frankly I don't think customers buy a spa because of the base.
IMHO--since we are looking to buy, what I am looking for, is what type of jets and PLACEMENT of the jets, not to mention other parts, such as the flooring. WHen we first started looking, we were going to have the tub on a deck, made of wood. SInce that would have been too much fat bank to rebuild, we decided on the porch, which has a 4-6 inch concrete base, but is covered--we really wanted to be out in the open to see the snow coming down on a cold winter's night.
In addition to seating/jet placement/therapies offered, not to mention the bling, we also have to consider the WARRANTY---and that means Limelight and Coyote would be out. Most spas are equal in warranty excetp for the LSE, yes that comes with a price, but, as Water Boy has stated, the LSE pricing comes with things other than just a 10 year warranty. OK, NOW??? :o ;D ;D ;D
Chrisi---still on the market for a tub..... :-/
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BTW----What I meant in a nutshell, is What is the WHOLE PACKAGE!!
Chrisi
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this is directly from the predelivery instructions for a jacuzzi spa with the ABS floor
"We recommend a poured,
reinforced concrete slab with a minimum thickness of 4 inches (10 centimeters). Wood decking
is also acceptable provided it is constructed so that it meets the requirements outlined above"
the following is directly from Arctics Forever Floor descriptions
"Already renowned for our sturdy wood floor, standard on every Arctic Spa, our engineers decided to raise the bar yet again by developing the Forever Floor®. Composed of hand-rolled fiberglass composites, this floor is impervious to moisture, pests, and time. It completely eliminates the need for foundation materials like concrete, decking, or blocks! Just set it on the ground, hook it up, fill and use...installation has never been easier and your floor will last forever in any conditions. In addition, your portable spa is now truly portable. If you move spa locations in your yard or if you move across town, the foundation comes with you."
(http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd6/JimA81/f8f2f617.jpg)
For one you are putting way to much in the base, yes base not floor of your spa, just because it says what it says in Jacuzzis recommendations, doesn't mean it has to be done that way. I have done well over 100+ Jacuzzis on pea gravel, crushed rock, sand, grass and probably some other chit as well. I know for a fact you can do that with almost any spa for that matter, as long as its level and packed it would be fine. The way your spouting about it sounds like its the only thing that spa has going for it. Since your engineers were raising the bar with a base thats made of fiberglass rather than ABS and the fact that the base of the spa comes with it if you decide to move it, is the dumbest statement I have ever heard!
What it sounds like is if you move anybody else's spa the base stays there? Well yeah the cement pad, deck, patio whatever is not going to go with the spa, but the abs pan,wood base structure of the spa is going with it. ::) thats true of any spa.
And since your engineers are raising the bar an ABS pan, fiberglass pan is not bar raising, How about coming out with a different type of filtration, instead of the 50 sq ft filter system in your 12.000 dollar Legend SE, the smallest Jacuzzi J-315 has 2 60 SQ ft. Why don't they come out with a new style of jet, Jacuzzi and Sundance both come out with new types and styles continuously to improve hydro therapy. Same with filtration not so much in Jacuzzi, but Sundance is always trying something new and innovative. I will say your ozone system looks good, but pretty much the same as D1 or Artesian has.
All in all your spa is nice, and their every bit as nice as the next guys, but you want bar raising talk to your engineers and tell them to think (http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd6/JimA81/avatarhell_fatalerror_box.gif)
And design something original. Cause looking at your web site I don't see anything there earth shattering.
I should add, the fact you can stand on your covers is cool, but why would you want to stand on it? In the last 9 years of being in the spa world, I have never seen a cover break cause somebody stood on it.
Im done with this now.
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(http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd6/JimA81/f8f2f617.jpg)
For one you are putting way to much in the base, yes base not floor of your spa, just because it says what it says in Jacuzzis recommendations, doesn't mean it has to be done that way. I have done well over 100+ Jacuzzis on pea gravel, crushed rock, sand, grass and probably some other chit as well. I know for a fact you can do that with almost any spa for that matter, as long as its level and packed it would be fine. The way your spouting about it sounds like its the only thing that spa has going for it. Since your engineers were raising the bar with a base thats made of fiberglass rather than ABS and the fact that the base of the spa comes with it if you decide to move it, is the dumbest statement I have ever heard!
What it sounds like is if you move anybody else's spa the base stays there? Well yeah the cement pad, deck, patio whatever is not going to go with the spa, but the abs pan,wood base structure of the spa is going with it. ::) thats true of any spa.
And since your engineers are raising the bar an ABS pan, fiberglass pan is not bar raising, How about coming out with a different type of filtration, instead of the 50 sq ft filter system in your 12.000 dollar Legend SE, the smallest Jacuzzi J-315 has 2 60 SQ ft. Why don't they come out with a new style of jet, Jacuzzi and Sundance both come out with new types and styles continuously to improve hydro therapy. Same with filtration not so much in Jacuzzi, but Sundance is always trying something new and innovative. I will say your ozone system looks good, but pretty much the same as D1 or Artesian has.
All in all your spa is nice, and their every bit as nice as the next guys, but you want bar raising talk to your engineers and tell them to think (http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd6/JimA81/avatarhell_fatalerror_box.gif)
And design something original. Cause looking at your web site I don't see anything there earth shattering.
I should add, the fact you can stand on your covers is cool, but why would you want to stand on it? In the last 9 years of being in the spa world, I have never seen a cover break cause somebody stood on it.
Im done with this now.
"is the dumbest statement I have ever heard"
So now Im dumb! Could of fooled me I thought I dominated this market that includes Hot Springs, Jacuzzi, Sundance as competition.
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Jimmy cracks me up. ;D ;D ;D
Simmer down there Jimmy!! ;)
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Well where do I start
1. "And since your engineers are raising the bar an ABS pan, fiberglass pan is not bar raising, How about coming out with a different type of filtration, instead of the 50 sq ft filter system in your 12.000 dollar Legend SE, the smallest Jacuzzi J-315 has 2 60 SQ ft"
How about our 900 square foot Micropure filter? Would that be an upgrade on square footage?
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So whats the deal with the "Forever floor"? Whats wrong with the normal floor of your spa that it warrants a forever floor? Why not just put a forever floor in every spa?
Curious as I don't have a arctic dealer around here to even sell against?
Jimmy.... Come on now you said so yourself that you don't even compete against a Arctic Dealer, so how do you know what they are and aren't doing??? No one ever said that the Jacuzzi pan was a bad thing did they?? or did I miss something here.
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2. "Why don't they come out with a new style of jet, Jacuzzi and Sundance both come out with new types and styles continuously to improve hydro therapy. Same with filtration not so much in Jacuzzi, but Sundance is always trying something new and innovative. I will say your ozone system looks good, but pretty much the same as D1 or Artesian has. "
Uhh, we actually have come out with new jets, the past two years Arctic has introduced two new styles.
Have you seen an Arctic or compete with Arctic, because it sounds like you are trying to learn directly off the website. I will say that our website blows, and if ones trying to get a opinion off the site alone then the opinion wouldnt be a great one.
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Hey, guys, what about the WHOLE PICTURE!!! I just gotta throw in my 2 cents worth :D
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Ooh, a nice off-topic side trip! Well, a quick google gave me these:
- "PC/ABS 1851G10L is a polycarbonate/ABS blend that has been reinforced with 10% fiberglass by weight. The addition of fiberglass provides high tensile strength and rigidity while preserving optimum impact resistance." (http://www.mdayinc.com/data_sheets/pcabs/PCABS1000/PC-ABS1851G10L.pdf). Note that they add fiberglass to it for "strength and rigidity" while the bouncy plastic ABS gives good "impact resistance".
- "Fiberglass...provide
... a smooth finish on both sides, a controlled wall thickness, and/or ...compound curves, molded-in color, high strength to weight ratios...fiberglass-molded products also meet the FMVSS 302 flammability standard...Vacuum Formed ABS Plastic has become a standard for interior plastic parts...because of its relatively low cost" (http://www.arrowheadinc.com/Projects/fiberglass-plastic-truck-parts.php).
That's pretty clear - fiberglass is strong, ABS is flexible and cheap. I mean, 'low cost'. ::)
You can probably find some scientific data about shear strength, tensile strength etc. if you look. Let us know what you find.
First,
JJ's post in response says a lot. Jacuzzi is a company who has done it both ways, and now uses ABS.
Second,
after an in-depth Google session, I found a cornucopia of info on both. Unfortunately, none pertaining to research as a spa base (or anything very similar).
Your first link is interesting in the use of 90% ABS, and only 10% fiberglass in the material. It would seem the "core" ingredient is in fact ABS plastic. Were fiberglass "clearly" superior, why isn't that ratio reversed?
Your second link is to a business selling fiberglass auto parts (not spa components) against plastic auto parts. I doubt they're biased. ::)
In my search, I found a large number of auto part and other businesses on both sides. Also, a number of forums discussing why one is better than the other - they go to both sides.
We could spend a very long time posting links of other people's (and industries') points of view. What will it accomplish?
My point had to do with no clear superiority between the two - IN OUR CURRENTLY DISCUSSED APPLICATION. Both have advantages.
Wood still works well, too. I do prefer advancements in technology - but would I ignore the right spa from the right dealer because it was built with a wooden base? Absolutely not.
Technology is an advantage, not an end-all.
*On one side note: ANY person setting ANY spa on lawn or topsoil should consult a builder or landscaper as to the suitability of the soil. The problem with doing this isn't the spa, it's the behavior of the base (edit: base meaning soil, lawn, etc.) throughout time and seasons.
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Jimmy.... Come on now you said so yourself that you don't even compete against a Arctic Dealer, so how do you know what they are and aren't doing??? No one ever said that the Jacuzzi pan was a bad thing did they?? or did I miss something here.
he took offense to my comments about the fiberglass being better than the abs, just so we all know I dont have a major problem with abs. I just think, and remember its just MY OPINION, the fiberglass is better. I can see why Jacuzzi would go with abs, its less expensive and ALMOST as good.
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Hey, guys, what about the WHOLE PICTURE!!! I just gotta throw in my 2 cents worth :D
http://www.hotspring.com/Spa_Showroom_Hot_Tub/spa_model_grandee.html
:)
Termie
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Jacuzzi, Sundance, and Hot Springs don't exactly have reputations for being "cheap"...
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http://www.hotspring.com/Spa_Showroom_Hot_Tub/spa_model_grandee.html
:)
Termie
gotta say Ive always liked the grandee, very similar to my favorite in the Arctic line "Tundra"
http://www.patiopleasures.com/Images/spa-tundra_legend_se.jpg
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No offense, Term, but HS and Caldera leave me/us feeling lukewarm. I know the debate goes on and on about how many jets, but the amt of jets AND jet placement means alot to me--wanting something with ALOT of foot and leg action IN ADDITION to the neck/back action is what made me googly-eyed :o over the Clearwater Orlando as well as some others. But, Cw. is probably out in our book.
probably gonna wet test a J470 at some point soon, as well as Dynasty and Arctic. Hey, if my HS dealer wants to throw in a better warranty pkg on a Limelight, I'd revisit that idea.
still searching... :-/
Chrisi :)
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gotta say Ive always liked the grandee, very similar to my favorite in the Arctic line "Tundra"
http://www.patiopleasures.com/Images/spa-tundra_legend_se.jpg
GA-- I gotta admit, the Tundra is my choice at present with those 2 seats that look like they would offer a good beating head to toe ;D ;D ;D
I only hope a fully loaded one won't cost me 2 arms/legs and my husband's rt nut, I like them all where they are. (he does too) But, I imagine it will. :'(
Chrisi ;)
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Jacuzzi, Sundance, and Hot Springs don't exactly have reputations for being "cheap"...
I agree with that statement, as a matter of fact they are all excellent choices of spas. Cant go wrong at all with those three as long as the dealer is good.
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No offense, Term, but HS and Caldera leave me/us feeling lukewarm. I know the debate goes on and on about how many jets, but the amt of jets AND jet placement means alot to me--wanting something with ALOT of foot and leg action IN ADDITION to the neck/back action is what made me googly-eyed :o over the Clearwater Orlando as well as some others. But, Cw. is probably out in our book.
probably gonna wet test a J470 at some point soon, as well as Dynasty and Arctic. Hey, if my HS dealer wants to throw in a better warranty pkg on a Limelight, I'd revisit that idea.
still searching... :-/
Chrisi :)
Just go try the Grandee. Only then will you truly get "the whole picture".
And talk to the dealer about the Limelight. He might be willing to pad the price on the front end so he can give you a longer warranty. ;)
Termie
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"is the dumbest statement I have ever heard"
So now Im dumb! Could of fooled me I thought I dominated this market that includes Hot Springs, Jacuzzi, Sundance as competition.
I never said you were dumb! That statement is. What they/you consider a floor I consider a base, Like I have said a few times now, both are fine. So I can shoot a bullet at your pan and it wont break, they both achieve the same results, its the end result that matters. To call the ABS pan cheaper is probably true, but we dont charge for ours and hey it does the same thing as your fiberglass pan,oh I mean floor.
Filtration wise The legend in fact all your spas look like it comes with a 50 sq ft filter std Yes from the website, How much more is your 900SQ ft filter as an up charge? Seems to me you guys have a lot of up charges for stuff thats std with most major manufacturers.
Ok I am done with this, we can sling mud at each other all day long, Back to the original subject, you guys have a great warranty. Specially when you have guys like Tom around that make it happen when the dealer wont.
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"Filtration wise The legend in fact all your spas look like it comes with a 50 sq ft filter std Yes from the website, How much more is your 900SQ ft filter as an up charge? Seems to me you guys have a lot of up charges for stuff thats std with most major manufacturers."
no upcharge whatsoever comes in every spa.
"I never said you were dumb! That statement is. What they/you consider a floor I consider a base, Like I have said a few times now, both are fine. So I can shoot a bullet at your pan and it wont break, they both achieve the same results, its the end result that matters. To call the ABS pan cheaper is probably true, but we dont charge for ours and hey it does the same thing as your fiberglass pan,oh I mean floor. "
Difference is Arctics can go right on the grass, no base, no pea gravel, no chite! No cost whatsoever. One way or another the customer is paying for a ABS base, Wood Floor, Fiberglass Floor whether the dealer charges extra for it. I dont charge extra for it, just like you dont charge extra for yours.
"Ok I am done with this, we can sling mud at each other all day long, Back to the original subject, you guys have a great warranty. Specially when you have guys like Tom around that make it happen when the dealer wont. "
Im sure that 100 percent of ALL JACUZZI warranty claims have all been taken care of without any extra contact.
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Probably not, but when You have been around 52 years thats bound to happen. :P
Ok now I am really done! (http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd6/JimA81/thdie.jpg)
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(http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b206/EastTexasSpa/hostileanne.jpg)
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Probably not, but when You have been around 52 years thats bound to happen. :P
Ok now I am really done! (http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd6/JimA81/thdie.jpg)
Not a new guy myself their Jimbo ;)
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Just sold our third spa today, and with all this talk of Legend's with Chrisi I had legends on my mind, and I just sold a Legend Extreme with the Wet-tunes stereo and the Northern Lights, and the customer's were tickled pink. I thought of you Chrisi when they signed up.
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Just sold our third spa today, and with all this talk of Legend's with Chrisi I had legends on my mind, and I just sold a Legend Extreme with the Wet-tunes stereo and the Northern Lights, and the customer's were tickled pink. I thought of you Chrisi when they signed up.
Great Job!! What Model did they purchase?? My friend has the Kodiak Legend Extreme. I have been in it x 2 and it always feels nice, so I imagine the Tundra is just as, if not more, powerful. Can you tell me what $$$ they paid?? Just a hint?? Even in a PM?? I just don't want to get my hopes too high!! ::) :o
What others did you sell today!! Too bad you're not in my area. ::)
I'm still thinking of the Tundra, hmmm,.... ;)
Thx, WB!!
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Wet-tunes stereo
WB--I assume this is different than the Aquatremors?? Didn't you tell me there are 3 stereo options??
TX, Chrisi
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I only hope a fully loaded one won't cost me 2 arms/legs and my husband's rt nut, I like them all where they are. (he does too) But, I imagine it will. :'(
Chrisi ;)
Whatcha Arctic guys wanna let me know?? (PS I wouldn't take a quote and go to my dealer and expect something different, I know prices range depending on the region. Just a guesstimate.)
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Probably not, but when You have been around 52 years thats bound to happen. :P
Ok now I am really done! (http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd6/JimA81/thdie.jpg)
52 years and probably at least 10 different owners/companies.
No way is Jacuzzi/Sundance the same company that was Jacuzzi Inc. Correct me if I am wrong...I don't believe there any Jacuzzi family members left associated with the company.
John and Jeff Watkins are no longer with Watkins Mfg. but there are people at Watkins who have been there @ 30 years.
Again, you and I know the 52 year old Jacuzzi thing is a marketing gimmick, but so what. What difference does it make if they are 52 years old or 30 years old? what does it mean to a spa buyer?
'Nuff said.
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WB--I assume this is different than the Aquatremors?? Didn't you tell me there are 3 stereo options??
TX, Chrisi
Wettunes is a basic set of two pop up speakers with amplifier. It doesnt provide much in bass, but definetely is a good option to play some good tunes. The aquatremor on the other hand is a nice option because it adds nice music to the spa, and also with our design of spa we use the dead air space to create vibration on the spa shell. It actually creates more therapy in the spa. The aquatremor is nice but expensive so you definetely want to check out before buying. As far as pricing goes you should be able to get that from your local dealer. They should be willing to work with you quite a bit, and give you a great deal. Pricing varies from dealer to dealer because of variance in overheads. I wish I could help you out more, but like any dealer thats about the best I can give you for price! Good luck and hope you find the perfect spa! :)
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Thanks, I figured it was different. I am waiting for my dealer to reply. I know they have worked great with my friend with a Kodiak Leg. Ex. and have gone out of their way to work with us and the Dynasty we want to wet test that they also carry.
I'll let you all know what we find out.
PS--I know the Dynasty we want to check will be in around tax day... ::)
Chrisi