Hot Tub Forum
Original => Hot Tub Forum => Topic started by: rphman on March 10, 2008, 11:52:20 pm
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Do you think using a Nature 2 cartridge maakes any difference in your water care / water quality?? I don't have ozone in my Caldera Moorea, haven't had any big problems with Dichlor in my 6 months of ownership. Just wondering if it would cut down on adding chems to the water.
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For me that's a tough call and no matter if your speaking about the frog, N-2 or any other name for a mineral or sliver add on. In theory they are really supposed to work and it is backed up by the EPA for at least the frog. In simple terms what is supposed to take place and this not the technical version but basically the silver will help soften the walls of bacteria thus requiring less bromine of di chlor to safely sanitize your spa as well as making the water feel softer. In the real world it seems sometimes hard to tell if they make a real noticeable difference. I like them... as I relate it to days when people used to throw a silver coin in the fresh drinking water when they crossed the oceans my completely unscientific logic tells me they seemed to have a practical reason for it, so I figure they were on to something.... ;)
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My research tells me it really doesnt do too much. There is a good debate on the other forum about this product.
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Do you think using a Nature 2 cartridge maakes any difference in your water care / water quality?? I don't have ozone in my Caldera Moorea, haven't had any big problems with Dichlor in my 6 months of ownership. Just wondering if it would cut down on adding chems to the water.
It did nothing for us.
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All I can do is compare my old tub, without N2, to my new with N2.
It sure seems like the water is easier to maintain with the N2 cartridge. I rarely have any problems with my water now. (except for some mold on the pillows) So, in my case, I'm gonna keep using it.
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Since I have ozone as well, I have no idea whether it is the N-2 or the ozone or the combo, but I have had to go for several days without treating my water (up to 5) and I have, so far, never opened my tub to green and/or cloudy water and when I add dichlor after that long a stretch it doesn't dissipate any faster than normal. My guess is something is keeping up with the bacteria killing when I am not able to add dichlor.
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Just FYI, N2 is classified by the EPA as a sanitizer.
I think if you were to use N2 by itself, you'd probably see no added benefits.
If you were to use it in conjunction with the Caldera ozonator, I think you'd get away with fewer chemicals - especially during the periods of non-use. But I think you have to use both to get the benefit. It's more of a system.
Caldera's ozone system uses a Corona Discharge Cell, which is different than most other ozone systems. It's output is more steady than both the CD Cell and UV units. Plus, the amount of ozone produced is much higher than the UV.
I have no science or data to back up all that I just said (except for the EPA approval). This is just what I have found in my years of owning a Hot Spring and using both ozone and silver. In times when one or the other was not functioning properly, I had to use more dichlor.
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The only time my water got Cloudy was when i used the silver.
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Just FYI, N2 is classified by the EPA as a sanitizer.
I think N2 is taking liberties with some wording on their web site. There are only three registered EPA sanitizers, still. Nature2 is an approved sanitizing system.
I found a combination of N2 and ozone would enable my water to last longer when there was no use. N2 alone or ozone alone did not give the same results (for me). Ozone is a powerful oxidizer and my experience seems to validate what N2 states...N2 with a lot of oxidizer will work to sanitize your spa, especially when no one uses it and is not overwhelming it with bacteria.
I found that heavy users don't get as much a benefit from either N2 or ozone.
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I've been asking myself this same question. One thing I've learned that is important, is the fact that the epa doesn't give guidelines for swimming pool or spa water. Sanitizers and disinfectants including N2, chlorine, etc. are registered as pesticides. They test them against blood borne pathogens, viruses, etc. The products we use in our spas are being tested as if they were treating medical waste, bodily excretions of an infected person, etc. To be registered with the EPA as a disinfectant you must be effective against the stated pathogens, viruses, etc. To be a sanitizer you must kill 99.9999% of the pathogen, virus, etc. in 30 seconds or less. Some products can be used as both a disinfectant or a sanitizer if you follow different useage instructions. The epa's requirements for pesticides are far more stringent than guidelines for healthy swimming water proposed by the CDC and other public health organizations. I think Tony makes a good point in that silver cartridges have no oxidation capabilities and our spas have a strong need for this. I think the dichlor we add does alot more oxidizing than sanitizing, because most of us just aren't adding that many pathogens into our water. We are mostly adding sweat, dead skin, etc. There is someone on another forum that is purchasing a spa pilot chlorine generator for his spa. Even with that product, you have to add MPS before and after every soak. I think that with N2 you can virtually eliminate chlorine useage, but you are substituting it with MPS which is just another chemical. So N2 is a low chlorine product but not a low chemical product. Tony has told me before that when following N2's instructions, he had to use much more MPS than the amount of dichlor he is now using. I think the product does work if you add enough oxidizer. As individuals we just have to decide it that's right for us.
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I've been asking myself this same question. One thing I've learned that is important, is the fact that the epa doesn't give guidelines for swimming pool or spa water. Sanitizers and disinfectants including N2, chlorine, etc. are registered as pesticides. They test them against blood borne pathogens, viruses, etc. The products we use in our spas are being tested as if they were treating medical waste, bodily excretions of an infected person, etc. To be registered with the EPA as a disinfectant you must be effective against the stated pathogens, viruses, etc. To be a sanitizer you must kill 99.9999% of the pathogen, virus, etc. in 30 seconds or less. Some products can be used as both a disinfectant or a sanitizer if you follow different useage instructions. The epa's requirements for pesticides are far more stringent than guidelines for healthy swimming water proposed by the CDC and other public health organizations. I think Tony makes a good point in that silver cartridges have no oxidation capabilities and our spas have a strong need for this. I think the dichlor we add does alot more oxidizing than sanitizing, because most of us just aren't adding that many pathogens into our water. We are mostly adding sweat, dead skin, etc. There is someone on another forum that is purchasing a spa pilot chlorine generator for his spa. Even with that product, you have to add MPS before and after every soak. I think that with N2 you can virtually eliminate chlorine useage, but you are substituting it with MPS which is just another chemical. So N2 is a low chlorine product but not a low chemical product. Tony has told me before that when following N2's instructions, he had to use much more MPS than the amount of dichlor he is now using. I think the product does work if you add enough oxidizer. As individuals we just have to decide it that's right for us.
How much MPS do you add after your soak? How many gallons are in your spa?
thanks TB
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I found a combination of N2 and ozone would enable my water to last longer when there was no use. N2 alone or ozone alone did not give the same results (for me). Ozone is a powerful oxidizer and my experience seems to validate what N2 states...N2 with a lot of oxidizer will work to sanitize your spa, especially when no one uses it and is not overwhelming it with bacteria.
I found that heavy users don't get as much a benefit from either N2 or ozone.
Kind of what I said: "I think if you were to use N2 by itself, you'd probably see no added benefits.
If you were to use it in conjunction with the Caldera ozonator, I think you'd get away with fewer chemicals - especially during the periods of non-use. But I think you have to use both to get the benefit. It's more of a system."
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I found a combination of N2 and ozone would enable my water to last longer when there was no use. N2 alone or ozone alone did not give the same results (for me). Ozone is a powerful oxidizer and my experience seems to validate what N2 states...N2 with a lot of oxidizer will work to sanitize your spa, especially when no one uses it and is not overwhelming it with bacteria.
I found that heavy users don't get as much a benefit from either N2 or ozone.
I agree with your first paragraph. I don't agree with the second one. Heavy users will certainly get a benefit as well (especially from a good CD ozone unit) but they certainly have to utilize their chlorine because ozone and N2 only do so much. If a spa his going to have multiple users getting ozone is REALLY a wise move IMO.
N2 and ozone are great to have but NOT with the idea that you'll use MUCH less chems but more from the standpoint that you'll run into fewer issues where you are chasing your water to clear it up. Sure less chasing leads to less chems but not in a major way. Fighting with water quality is a pain and from that standpoint I’m a huge Ozone fan and to a lesser degree a fan of N2 as well.
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A sanitizer means to reduce the number of microorganisms to a safe level. A sanitizer must be capable of killing 99.999% known as a 5 log reduction, of a specific bacterial test population, and to do so within 30 seconds. A sanitizer may or may not necessarily destroy pathogenic or disease causing bacteria as is a criteria for a disinfectant. One official and legal version states that a sanitizer must be capable of killing 99.999% of a specific bacterial test population, and to do so within 30 seconds.
A disinfectant is a chemical agent which is capable of destroying disease causing bacteria or pathogens, but not spores and not all viruses. From a technical and legal sense, a disinfectant must be capable of reducing the level of pathogenic bacteria by 99.999% during a time frame greater than 5 but less than 10 minutes.
The main difference between a sanitizer and a disinfectant is that at a specified use dilution, the disinfectant must have a higher kill capability for pathogenic bacteria compared to that of a sanitizer.
http://www.schiff-consulting.com/choosing.html
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I agree with your first paragraph. I don't agree with the second one. Heavy users will certainly get a benefit as well (especially from a good CD ozone unit) but they certainly have to utilize their chlorine because ozone and N2 only do so much. If a spa his going to have multiple users getting ozone is REALLY a wise move IMO.
N2 and ozone are great to have but NOT with the idea that you'll use MUCH less chems but more from the standpoint that you'll run into fewer issues where you are chasing your water to clear it up. Sure less chasing leads to less chems but not in a major way. Fighting with water quality is a pain and from that standpoint I’m a huge Ozone fan and to a lesser degree a fan of N2 as well.
I only say this because daily chlorine users who dose to 3 ppm after use will have no issues in their water in 24 hours...at least this has been my experience. I use the same amount of chlorine using ozone and N2 as I do without as per the Vermonter instructions. My water stays nice both ways. But I believe I am the exception. Not everyone uses their spa every day. Maybe it would be more accurate to change heavy users to regular daily users. If I skip a day or two, now I am chasing. This is where ozone and N2 paid dividends. If you have multiple users...take all the help you can get. ;)
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A sanitizer means to reduce the number of microorganisms to a safe level. A sanitizer must be capable of killing 99.999% known as a 5 log reduction, of a specific bacterial test population, and to do so within 30 seconds. A sanitizer may or may not necessarily destroy pathogenic or disease causing bacteria as is a criteria for a disinfectant. One official and legal version states that a sanitizer must be capable of killing 99.999% of a specific bacterial test population, and to do so within 30 seconds.
A disinfectant is a chemical agent which is capable of destroying disease causing bacteria or pathogens, but not spores and not all viruses. From a technical and legal sense, a disinfectant must be capable of reducing the level of pathogenic bacteria by 99.999% during a time frame greater than 5 but less than 10 minutes.
The main difference between a sanitizer and a disinfectant is that at a specified use dilution, the disinfectant must have a higher kill capability for pathogenic bacteria compared to that of a sanitizer.
http://www.schiff-consulting.com/choosing.html
I believe the good Dr. is right. That these products fall under the disinfectant label for EPA. I do think they can be a benefit but they are also many times over sold, in the same way Ozone is. I think ozone and most the silver or like type products do aid in keeping your water safe but to think they are enough by themselves is where many get in trouble and is most likely due to a over selling sales person.
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Here we go again! Let me get a fence up!!! ;D
N2 users | non N2 users
It may work just like ozone may work but it depends on your water ... I tried both N2 and the Frog and I don't see what the big deal is. My water using both WITH ozone only lasts 2 or 3 days unless I hit it with 10+ PPM chlorine.
I know my ozonator is garbage - hey it's a Del and I do plan on updating it this spring but IMO you're better off buying more chlorine or bromine with the money you spend on N2 or the frog. And then you get a real EPA certified disinfectant.
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. I do think they can be a benefit but they are also many times over sold, [/quote]
More money for the dealers pocket ;)
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Here we go again! Let me get a fence up!!! ;D
N2 users | non N2 users
It may work just like ozone may work but it depends on your water ... I tried both N2 and the Frog and I don't see what the big deal is. My water using both WITH ozone only lasts 2 or 3 days unless I hit it with 10+ PPM chlorine.
I know my ozonator is garbage - hey it's a Del and I do plan on updating it this spring but IMO you're better off buying more chlorine or bromine with the money you spend on N2 or the frog. And then you get a real EPA certified disinfectant.
What's the cost on N2 or the Frog?
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What's the cost on N2 or the Frog?
n2 35 to 50 bucks every 4 months :P
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n2 35 to 50 bucks every 4 months :P
Assuming that's accurate, is the overall savings really that significant? You are still required to shock and balance the water on a regular basis correct? I'm just not familiar with these products...
I can only guess that people don't purchase these for the cost savings. Kinda like ozone... the initial cost and future service negates the savings in chemicals though it "can" provide a window for users where their water might have turned on them..maybe... ;)
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Assuming that's accurate, is the overall savings really that significant? You are still required to shock and balance the water on a regular basis correct? I'm just not familiar with these products...
I can only guess that people don't purchase these for the cost savings. Kinda like ozone... the initial cost and future service negates the savings in chemicals though it "can" provide a window for users where their water might have turned on them..maybe... ;)
IMO, when it comes to n2 if the $35 every 4 months is in many way a hindrance then I'd say skip it. It helps but not to a great degree and doesn't save much on chems. It helps with water maintenance and for those who don't care much about having to put up $35 three X per year go for it.
Ozone is a different story IMO. I have seen the difference between a working ozone and a non-working ozone on a spa. I have seen people have great success on water management only to have troubles when the ozone died, hose got kinked, calcium build-up caused it to stop, etc and then all back to good after it was fixed. I've also seen people struggle and then add it and become big believers. To me it is WELL worth the cost as long as you’re getting a good unit (some are cheap and not worth it). Do you get your money back on chems saved? No, but what is ease of water care worth. to those who've had issues where it was a big help they always seem to thin its worth it. Those are just my opinions based on my experiences but I'm sticking to them.
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N2 is definately not a low cost alternative. If you follow their instructions for the low chlorine recipe, you might not be using much dichlor but you are using MPS and that costs money too. I agree with spatech that I won't make the money back that I spent on N2 or my ozonator. I do have piece of mind that with my hectic life I can skip a day or two of adding dichlor or even take a vacation and still have clear water. I've learned that nothing about owning a spa is cheap. I get all my supplies at cost and I still feel like I'm spending money left and right. We use our spa every day which means we use alot of chemicals. On top of that there are replacement filters, testing supplies, scumballs, etc. It's a good thing we get so much enjoyment out of our spa.
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All I know is that my water is a breeze for the last year and a half using N2 and the ozone system. I have yet to run into a funky water day. And as long as gas is under $5.00 a gallon (until the end of next week!), I can afford the cost of the cartridges.
So....I don't know what does it, but I'm not gonna mess with a good thing!
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WOW!! I asked this question as I've hadn't had any major problems with my spa, other than how to make my water last greater than 3 months!! I don't mind the cost of adding chems, or the daily routine, but looked at this as something easier (forget it and set it) to have better water with less maintenance. Maybe I should look into adding ozone??
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Well, right now I am not using ozone or silver and my water is perfect...and I mean perfect....but, the longest I go without adding chlorine is 48 hours.
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Well, right now I am not using ozone or silver and my water is perfect...and I mean perfect....but, the longest I go without adding chlorine is 48 hours.
The fact that your water is perfect as you are maintaining it has no bearing on whether N2 or ozone works. It simply shows that you can do without and still have great results and that doesn't surprise me. However, others may not have those same results and I KNOW some of it is probably due to people who are not as diligent as you may be in your water care.
I just personally find it much easier with a good ozonator added (and marginally easier with N2 added on top of that).
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The fact that your water is perfect as you are maintaining it has no bearing on whether N2 or ozone works. It simply shows that you can do without and still have great results and that doesn't surprise me. However, others may not have those same results and I KNOW some of it is probably due to people who are not as diligent as you may be in your water care.
I just personally find it much easier with a good ozonator added (and marginally easier with N2 added on top of that).
You are absolutely right. I think we are saying the same thing. My experience has been that N2 and ozone work, even better together. For me in my partictular situation, they do not do a lot for me because I am on top of my water every day.
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Caldera's ozone system uses a Corona Discharge Cell, which is different than most other ozone systems. It's output is more steady than both the CD Cell and UV units.
CD = corona discharge. Simply put - "lightning in a box".
Higher quality systems (like Caldera) use an electrode to do this. Lower quality systems use a microchip (this may be what you meant by "cell").
Electrode CD systems produce significantly more ozone, and have a longer life.
Caldera is far from alone with this. Sundance Spas offer a choice between the two (I believe Jacuzzi does as well). Both Bullfrog Spas and Hot Springs Spas use electrode CD systems only.
Plus, the amount of ozone produced is much higher than the UV.
Yes, it is MUCH more effective. The local manufacturer here (Mom & Pop type) hasn't used a UV system in three years.
*More on topic: I've seen CD electrode system failures (d#$@ check valves) - the first clue was always a drop in water quality noticed by the spa owners.
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I'm glad you brought that up Bauer. It kinda lights a fire under my lazy bones. I have a feeling that my ozonator isn't functioning properly but I keep forgetting to open my panel and look into it. I ordered my spa without an ozonator because I have access to them at cost and I purchased a cd cartridge and not a cd chip. My spa ended up coming with a cd chip ozonator on it so they just let me have it at no additional charge. I just left in on there, but I think you convinced me to take that off and put on the better one that I purchased. I'll be curious to see the difference. You mentioned clog check valves. How do you tell if one is clogged?
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CD = corona discharge. Simply put - "lightning in a box".
Higher quality systems (like Caldera) use an electrode to do this. Lower quality systems use a microchip (this may be what you meant by "cell").
Electrode CD systems produce significantly more ozone, and have a longer life.
Caldera is far from alone with this. Sundance Spas offer a choice between the two (I believe Jacuzzi does as well). Both Bullfrog Spas and Hot Springs Spas use electrode CD systems only.
Oops. I did mean CD chip when comparing with UV. The Cell I refer to with Caldera is the electrode you refer to. There are three types of ozone systems: CD Cell, CD chip and UV. Thanks for catching my typo.
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If you look under Ebay...
I have bought many nature2s at $15 each when I buy 4 at a time.....
4 for $60 is a well enough investment if you enjoy always going into your spa.
For $15 each I rather have peace of mind,,,,,,,,,No way would i buy nature2 local
and OVER spend.....JT