Hot Tub Forum
Original => Hot Tub Forum => Topic started by: stuart on February 20, 2008, 03:12:07 pm
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So all of you Hotspring guys that have adamantly sold against metal frames and TP insulation...How are you going to handle the new spa HS is building with Metal and partial foam?
Half of the things HS is selling now are things they sold against in the past...What are they doing?
I also watched a Thermospa commercial today and laughed out loud when they claimed that full foam caused more rodent and bug issues!!!!?????
I don't want to start a battle over FF vs. TP but 90% of all our spas in the last 4 years with rodent, bee or even heat damage where not full foam.
In the summer we ask customers with TP spas (we sold)to spray bug spray in them before we come out because we've run into so many spiders and hornets in that vacant cabinet. We even keep spray in the vans now.
WAIT! What’s that noise….Did you hear that? It sounded like a can of worms ripping open!!!! ;D ;D ;D ;) 8-)
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intersting...do you have any more info or links?
"Partial Foam" as in employing an Thermal pane design, (using pump heat to maintain a jacket of heat air arond the tub), or are they removing foam for other reasons? (cost, access, or something else ?)
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HotSpring Spas are still HotSpring Spas.....however......
WATKINS may or may not be offering a new line of spas with metal frames, lesser insulation, lots of jets, lots of lights, and stereos at a reasonable price point like most other spa companies do on their premium lines. I guess we'll all find out soon enough.
If so, I would imagine it is simply an effort to capture even more market share. I hope it's true and they call them "Monkey SeaMonkey Doo Spas".
Terminator
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HotSpring Spas are not changing.
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oh....but they wil change. It is all to logical!
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Time will tell.
8-)
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Oh Stuart my friend they will do just fine, while we speak they are brewing the formula of Cool Aid. Sales training is the name of the game and Hot Spring plays it better than anyone. ;)
BTW don't ever leave Starbucks again without first getting my Macchiato.
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If you want to know the truth about HS, there is only one place to go on the web to get it- our friend in Colorado. ;)
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There's lot's of manufacturers that offer a "lesser" line and sometimes that line needs to have mods done to it to get into a certain pricepoint.
That said, it's always a challenge not to get caught over selling the main line when someone is more interested in this cheaper spa and then trying to tell them how wonderful it is...
It would be too bad if they decide to go with anything other than full foam though. Either they believe in it or not. There's other ways to bring down a pricepoint without doing that.
I don't forsee Arctic building a full foam spa and that would sound just as odd as HS going that route...
I guess it's all speculation right now.
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I haven't heard anything about HotSpring building a new spa :-? I have heard however that Watkins Manufacturing is considering a new line of metal frame TP spa ;D Whatever happens, I have confidence that Watkins knows what they're doing.
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Geeeez,
Maybe you big-shot HS dealers got a different tour than I did. All I saw was old Classic molds. I need another lime for my Captain's and Coke. ;)
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I haven't heard anything about HotSpring building a new spa :-? I have heard however that Watkins Manufacturing is considering a new line of metal frame TP spa ;D Whatever happens, I have confidence that Watkins knows what they're doing.
If you are at liberty to say. Would this be the same line that has already been mentioned here that is a go for production. Spas with more jets, lights for less dollars. Interesting if it is because it has always been argued by many that it cost more more money to produce a wood frame-full foam spa than a TP and metal frame. Master apologists among others have argued this point.
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Geeeez,
Maybe you big-shot HS dealers got a different tour than I did. All I saw was old Classic molds. I need another lime for my Captain's and Coke. ;)
I have a lime for you, but it is still a little light, so it may not be ripe yet. Maybe in the next few weeks.
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Careful.
8-)
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This is all very interesting. You will have to let us know when this all comes too so we can see what the Watkins TP spa looks like. I guess it make sense that if they get a customer that is sold on a TP spa, they can now offer them something from Watkins. When are these expected to be available.
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Unless they can sell it for under 5 even 4000.00 I really don't think it will increase there sales maybe in lower income states?
Jacuzzi and Sundance both have a price point series as well, but when most people are in that price range they don't want it because it does'nt have as many jets or a stereo for that price, I use it more as a way to up sell them to the next level, show them the differences pro's and cons so on and so on. Sometimes it is what they want and they buy it, or they go back to costco and buy the 100 jet spa with stereo,lights the works and think its the best thing since sliced bread,until it breaks down or falls apart.
Artesian did the same thing a couple years ago with there so called "promotional series". We brought a few in, and in the end practically gave them away because we could not sell them to that "low end" customer or we up sold them to something better for more money.
Or HS is really trying to compete with Costco and others and that sell the btm feeder a spa? Not everybody has a store like Terms that sells 3 or 4 a day, even in Hot Springs world. I would imagine if HS is coming out with said spa, it would probably be a better seller in places where people cant afford a 7000.00 dollar jet setter.
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Unless they can sell it for under 5 even 4000.00 I really don't think it will increase there sales maybe in lower income states?
Jacuzzi and Sundance both have a price point series as well, but when most people are in that price range they don't want it because it does'nt have as many jets or a stereo for that price, I use it more as a way to up sell them to the next level, show them the differences pro's and cons so on and so on. Sometimes it is what they want and they buy it, or they go back to costco and buy the 100 jet spa with stereo,lights the works and think its the best thing since sliced bread,until it breaks down or falls apart.
Artesian did the same thing a couple years ago with there so called "promotional series". We brought a few in, and in the end practically gave them away because we could not sell them to that "low end" customer or we up sold them to something better for more money.
Or HS is really trying to compete with Costco and others and that sell the btm feeder a spa? Not everybody has a store like Terms that sells 3 or 4 a day, even in Hot Springs world. I would imagine if HS is coming out with said spa, it would probably be a better seller in places where people cant afford a 7000.00 dollar jet setter.
You are judging a line of spas that has not even been confirmed by the manufacturer. Wait until they come out to make your judgments. From what I have heard from extremely reliable sources, this new line will be totally different than anything Watkins has ever done. We'll just have to wait and see.
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You are judging a line of spas that has not even been confirmed by the manufacturer. Wait until they come out to make your judgments. From what I have heard from extremely reliable sources, this new line will be totally different than anything Watkins has ever done. We'll just have to wait and see.
I asked this question earlier but no response, but do you know if If you are at liberty to say. Would this be the same line that has already been mentioned here that is a go for production. Spas with more jets, lights for less dollars. Interesting if it is because it has always been argued by many that it cost more more money to produce a wood frame-full foam spa than a TP and metal frame. Master apologists among others have argued this point. I am not criticizing Watkins for doing or considering it. I was just thinking it was a way for them to bring the costs down. If it turns out to be accurate than it really would seem to support what has been said before and that TP is a cheaper way to build a spa and no matter the song and dance you may hear it really comes down to cost.
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True! But if they are coming out with that type of spa, that would be my opinion.
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Time will tell.
8-)
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HotSpring Spas are still HotSpring Spas.....however......
If so, I would imagine it is simply an effort to capture even more market share. I hope it's true and they call them "Monkey SeaMonkey Doo Spas".
Terminator
Pretty much says it here, IF true? You would think a company would not build a new series thats higher end then they already have in order to gain more market share?
You would build a lower end, better price point spa, that will attract that buyer that cant afford a true Hot Springs or Tiger River, but still has Watkins quality, you would hope!
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I asked this question earlier but no response, but do you know if If you are at liberty to say. Would this be the same line that has already been mentioned here that is a go for production. Spas with more jets, lights for less dollars. Interesting if it is because it has always been argued by many that it cost more more money to produce a wood frame-full foam spa than a TP and metal frame. Master apologists among others have argued this point. I am not criticizing Watkins for doing or considering it. I was just thinking it was a way for them to bring the costs down. If it turns out to be accurate than it really would seem to support what has been said before and that TP is a cheaper way to build a spa and no matter the song and dance you may hear it really comes down to cost.
I would say this is the same line. I do not work for them or any of their dealers. I do, however, know many folks who do both. I don't really have full details, just what's been told to me. When going on verbal communication, I usually like to wait and see what really happens.
As Chas says, "time will tell."
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I thought it would be. I am surprised that they would go in this direction but obviously they know what they're doing. When the line was first mentioned here it did not mention the TP/metal I think it is just really interesting that for them to want to build a line that they can sell for less retail dollars they do this. It is not a bad thing. but it really again supports all those who for years have said full foam and wood cost more the tp/metal.
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Didn't Watkins already take the first step in this direction with a lower end line through Caldera? It may not have been metal frame/TP, but if I recall the line did have stereos standard and more jets....
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I don't think Caldera thinks of itself or is priced as the lower line. It was my understanding the new line would more have "bling" for less bucks...I think it may just be a sign of the times as makers are trying to get though the slow down that is effecting many industries.
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Didn't Watkins already take the first step in this direction with a lower end line through Caldera? It may not have been metal frame/TP, but if I recall the line did have stereos standard and more jets....
Caldera did come out with the C-Series. Kind of an unadvertised special. The spas were exactly the same as the full-fledged Calderas with a few pieces of equipment swapped out for cheaper stuff. The siding, shells, molds, foam, structure were all still full Caldera. Plus, it has a shorter warranty, so the spas are a bit cheaper than the Utopia series spas.
I think rather than trying to speculate what these new Watkins spas will be, we should just be patient and see them when they are released. I have heard good things. Yes bling, yes lights, etc. But until the new spas come out - if they do - we'll have to wait to see what they are.
Mendo, I think you are right. If Watkins does produce a TP spa with metal frame for a much lower price, then yes, I think we will see that it is cheaper to produce a TP spa. Remember, foam is pure petroleum. Seen the oil prices lately? Really, a spa is probably + or - 90% petroleum. The shell, siding, foam, PVC, jets, etc. Foam is one of the single largest costs in a spa - especially multi-layered, different density, closed cell foam. Just on foam savings alone, an otherwise equally produced TP spa will be cheaper.
I think it is hard to compare, for instance, Arctic's TP cost to Watkins' full foam cost because the total cost of overhead is probably drastically different. Watkins probably buys better than anyone in the industry. The only way to truly compare costs is for a manufacturer to compare their own costs. That is the only way every other cost remains the same.
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I have to go back to something that is bugging me. And that is the subject of this thread and the initial post.
1. How is Watkins changing the rules...again? The only rules I've ever seen them change is to set the bar higher for the entire industry. Of course that is an opinion. I, for one, think this industry is better off because of Watkins. Now, I also think other companies have brought much to the industry as well.
2. I have never seen, heard or read anything from Watkins that slams TP or metal frames. I have only seen Watkins sell why they feel their spas are superior - without slamming competition. That does not mean that some of the dealers or their salespeople have never done it. But I don't think you can find Watkins teaching that. They try to sell up their lines without selling down others.
3. The changes being discussed here have nothing to do with Hot Spring. They have everything to do with Watkins. Hot Spring will remain the spas they are today. Full Foam, wood frame, high quality spas.
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I am sure perhaps some makers somewhere might slam others but not publicly or as company policy but the boys from Watkins are just as proud as the Marquis, Jacuzzi, D-1, etc, etc are and when they get together and have a beer and talk shop I am they all take a good natured swipe here and there but as a whole I think most of the long time big players have some genuine respect for each other. I mean if we were all being open hear I think most know Watkins people are going the bleed the Watkins company line they do such a great job of marketing thier product not only to the consumer but to those who represent it as well and that's not a swipe but a compliment.
I am not saying this new line is a bad idea. I think it is interesting that in the goal to make a less expensive spa with more lets just say "Costco like features" to hit the price that they may do it with metal and TP. I am actually smiling :) about it as it sorta vindicates those ( I being one) who have said that the real reason for those who produce spas with the TP/Metal did so because it cost less to make but that's not to say they can not still be a good spa.
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I thought it would be. I am surprised that they would go in this direction but obviously they know what they're doing. When the line was first mentioned here it did not mention the TP/metal I think it is just really interesting that for them to want to build a line that they can sell for less retail dollars they do this. It is not a bad thing. but it really again supports all those who for years have said full foam and wood cost more the tp/metal.
Not all TP spas use metal frames, fwiw.
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Not all TP spas use metal frames, fwiw.
This is true but both have been mentioned as less expensive way to build a spa. The combo being the cheaper way to build than wood or full foam.
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This is true but both have been mentioned as less expensive way to build a spa. The combo being the cheaper way to build than wood or full foam.
Just for info reasons, Arctics way of building is not a cost saving mode. Im not saying that you are implying that, but I want the facts straight that Arctic didnt choose TP for cost saving measures. As a matter of fact I would guess that Arctics extra labor and materials cost on increasing the thickness of fiberglass on the backside of the acrylic shell would cost more than just filling the cabinet full of foam. FYI
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I have to go back to something that is bugging me. And that is the subject of this thread and the initial post.
1. How is Watkins changing the rules...again? The only rules I've ever seen them change is to set the bar higher for the entire industry. Of course that is an opinion. I, for one, think this industry is better off because of Watkins. Now, I also think other companies have brought much to the industry as well.
2. I have never seen, heard or read anything from Watkins that slams TP or metal frames. I have only seen Watkins sell why they feel their spas are superior - without slamming competition. That does not mean that some of the dealers or their salespeople have never done it. But I don't think you can find Watkins teaching that. They try to sell up their lines without selling down others.
3. The changes being discussed here have nothing to do with Hot Spring. They have everything to do with Watkins. Hot Spring will remain the spas they are today. Full Foam, wood frame, high quality spas.
Vanguard hit it on the head. Why doesn't anybody care that HotSpring dealers like myself believe 100% no bypass filtration is best, but Tiger River doesn't have it? And no one mentioned that both HS and TR spas have 24 hour circ pumps but Solana and Hot Spots don't. They're all part of the same family of tubs, but there are always going to be different levels of products available for anything you buy.
As far as the cheaper tub for more bling, I haven't heard about anything yet, but in some aspects it makes sense to me. I'd be a rich man if I had a dollar for every person that's ever walked into my store or my booth at a show and asked for a tub with a lot of jets, a water fall, a stereo and color changing lights.
We all know those things don't make a tub, but they do attract people to look. I think it's like walking out to the car lot and telling the salesman you want something with tinted windows, a sunroof, a killer sound system and spinners, but to each his own.
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As far as the cheaper tub for more bling, I haven't heard about anything yet, but in some aspects it makes sense to me. I'd be a rich man if I had a dollar for every person that's ever walked into my store or my booth at a show and asked for a tub with a lot of jets, a water fall, a stereo and color changing lights.
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Go back a few weeks and read about the new line Hot Springs looks to be bringing out. Please note I never implied this is bad in anyway. I just mentioned the TP/Metal because many people have argued that this is just a cheaper way for most to build a spa this way and if Hot Springs goal is to have a line with more bling but at a lower price point than for them to consider building them in this manner simply supports all those who have said it was cheaper to build.
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Just for info reasons, Arctics way of building is not a cost saving mode. Im not saying that you are implying that, but I want the facts straight that Arctic didnt choose TP for cost saving measures. As a matter of fact I would guess that Arctics extra labor and materials cost on increasing the thickness of fiberglass on the backside of the acrylic shell would cost more than just filling the cabinet full of foam. FYI
Arctics has always seemed to distance themselves from other TP builders.
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Go back a few weeks and read about the new line Hot Springs looks to be bringing out. Please note I never implied this is bad in anyway. I just mentioned the TP/Metal because many people have argued that this is just a cheaper way for most to build a spa this way and if Hot Springs goal is to have a line with more bling but at a lower price point than for them to consider building them in this manner simply supports all those who have said it was cheaper to build.
I never though you were saying it in a negative way. I do think this is interesting, and I'm looking forward to seeing what comes out.
As someone said earlier, tubs like that are easy to use as an example of other ways to build a tub, and I always found HotSpring to be an easier sale when I had that type of tub on the floor to show.
There are enough people though, like I said before, that will buy those tubs strictly based on looks and price point.
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Arctics has always seemed to distance themselves from other TP builders.
Mendo is correct. Many people think that anything that is not "full foam" is "thermopane", but this is not necessarily correct.
The usual concept of "thermopane" is borrowed from the window industry, where a layer of still air (or other substances, such as nitrogen) is sandwiched between two layers of glass. In portable spas, this is usually described as a layer of air sandwiched between two thin layers of insulation, one on the shell and one inside the cabinet.
This is NOT how Arctic Spas are constructed. We use a 3" thick layer of polyurethane foam insulation on the inside of the cabinet, while leaving the shell uninsulated. I believe that other manufacturers use a similar approach, and suggest this be referred to as "perimeter insulation" as distinct from "thermopane".
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And I might add that three inches of foam insulation, whether on the shell or the cabinet, is going to do the same job of retaining heat that 'full foam' will do, if the layer is carefully applied so that there are no gaps or thin spots. There is a point of diminishing returns on foam thickness, and it seems to be just a little over three inches from what I have read and heard.
Arctic chose to put in on the cabinet, and keep the plumbing free of foam, at least mostly free of foam. Obviously some of the plumbing ends up in the foam, but the design is to keep as much of it clear as possible.
There are many other makers who put a three inch layer on the shell, encasing the plumbing while they are at it, and they do a good job of holding heat.
There are some tubs out there with an inch or less on the cabinet, and the name "Thermopane" or some such on the brochure. They don't work well for a variety of reasons, and there are plenty of folks who have posted here and on other discussion boards to back that up.
HS does many layers, all different density of foam, from the shell all the way to the cabinet, but there are structural reasons for that. There is also a great deal of sound deadening which comes from not having air chambers, and HS takes great pains to avoid air voids in the foam insulation.
The good ones work, the bad ones don't . From what I hear, Arctic works as well as HS - and that makes sense since. They both have at least three inches of foam, carefully applied to make a complete and total barrier to heat loss. What else is there to say?
8-)
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Watkins, like any other Hot Tub manufacturer, is a profit making company and so are their many dealers. Every dealer in this country is hoping for different things from their manufacturer so they don't have people walking out the doors and buying elsewhere. That is all that is happening here and it will continue, as all businesss' need to increase market share and or penetration.
Imagine where Watkins would be today if they stuck to their original shell material that you could beat with a louisville slugger just to get your point across. People still walked away and bought colorful acrylic.
Watkins, like others, considered sound systems and electronics a no-no for their Tubs, but now years later, look at what they have.
Dealers do not sell everybody that walks in their door, no not even HS. Dealers are asking their suppliers to provide what they don't have for shoppers they don't sell. When you didn't have water features, you followed up only to find they bought a Hot Tub with water features. IF you don't have what they want they continue to shop until they find what they want, OR somebody that closes them.
NO ONE dealer or manufacturer has the best of everything, NO, not even Watkins. There was a reason they begrudingly went to acrylic. There was a reason they didn't recommend ozone. There was a reason they added water features. There was a reason they bought Caldera. There was a reason they developed Solana, or even Hot Spot. There was a reason they tried to market through Costco. It is all about having what the shopper wants to spend his money on, and that is NOT always buying the Biggest and the Best in the Industry.
Dealers understandably just hate seeing the money walk out the door when they do not have what the shopper is looking for, more jets, exotic lighting, or when they are looking for the "Bling". All manufacturers ask their dealers where they are loosing sales so that they can consider having what they want.
In a single word, Marketing, or more Marketshare
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HS does many layers, all different density of foam, from the shell all the way to the cabinet, but there are structural reasons for that. There is also a great deal of sound deadening which comes from not having air chambers, and HS takes great pains to avoid air voids in the foam insulation. (quote from Chas)
Not to disagree but, I have worked on several HotSpring spas lately and there has been atleast a 3" void behind the shroud that goes across the spa behind the pump compartment almost the entire width if the spa. I also have 3 spas in the back with leaks from the exact same places they all have cracks beside the light fitting where you enter the spa and they all leak from the bottom of the moto massage housing. Is this common or is it coincidence. It seems almost as if there isn't enough support in the area where you step into the tub. Again not attacking the spa just asking an honest question.
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HS does many layers, all different density of foam, from the shell all the way to the cabinet, but there are structural reasons for that. There is also a great deal of sound deadening which comes from not having air chambers, and HS takes great pains to avoid air voids in the foam insulation. (quote from Chas)
Not to disagree but, I have worked on several HotSpring spas lately and there has been atleast a 3" void behind the shroud that goes across the spa behind the pump compartment almost the entire width if the spa. I also have 3 spas in the back with leaks from the exact same places they all have cracks beside the light fitting where you enter the spa and they all leak from the bottom of the moto massage housing. Is this common or is it coincidence. It seems almost as if there isn't enough support in the area where you step into the tub. Again not attacking the spa just asking an honest question.
What years and what models are you dealing with?
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I think Stuart is just trying to start trouble. ;)
It's pretty much common knowledge that as Chas said, "the good ones work". Full foam done right, works and is not an issue, and the Thermal tubs, when done right also work.
I have absoltuey no doubt that Watkins could make a Themal tub that worked well. I don't see issues on how they "would sell agaisnt it" . Both methods work when done right. Watkins engineering and manufactuing are proven entities.
The bigger questions would be why? Changing from FF to TP would be a huge cost to a manufacturing line. Are they going with a high end TP design to sell agaist Arctic and the like, or are they putting out a low end budget tub under a different brand name to counter the Costco/Big Box Hydro tubs out there?
????
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I think Stuart is just trying to start trouble. ;)
It's pretty much common knowledge that as Chas said, "the good ones work". Full foam done right, works and is not an issue, and the Thermal tubs, when done right also work.
I have absolutely no doubt that Watkins could make a Thermal tub that worked well. I don't see issues on how they "would sell against it" . Both methods work when done right. Watkins engineering and manufacturing are proven entities.
The bigger questions would be why? Changing from FF to TP would be a huge cost to a manufacturing line. Are they going with a high end TP design to sell against Arctic and the like, or are they putting out a low end budget tub under a different brand name to counter the Costco/Big Box Hydro tubs out there?
????
The "Why" is plain and simple: To offer a less expensive spa with more "stuff."
They are NOT going be to "changing" from FF to TP. They are just going to be offering a new spa line with less foam. It won't be a Hot Spring Spa.
We don't even know what all this means right now. Will it still be full foam, just a lower density throughout? Or will it truly have less foam altogether? The spas haven't even been released. I see a lot of speculation about what these spas are. There are a few people who have seen them and heard about them, but Watkins has asked them to keep their lips sealed until the release. They are doing a remarkable job in keeping quiet.
They won't have to change their production line much at all. When the new spa comes through the foam tunnel, they'll just put in less or different foam. They have people spraying the foam of different densities already. That won't be difficult. Plus, they'll probably make these spas in Mexico where they can easily adapt and are already fiberglassing the Calderas and Solana Spas.
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thanks Vanguard.....very intersting.
You also mentioned fiberglassing the Caldera's"....the calderia's are fiberglass? I thought they were acrylic. Is this new?
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Caldera Spas are made of cast Acrylic, vacuum molded and then backed with hand-laminated fiberglass.
They always have been.
8-)
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Caldera Spas are made of cast Acrylic, vacuum molded and then backed with hand-laminated fiberglass.
They always have been.
8-)
Yes, that is what I meant by fiberglassing. They hand lay and roll multiple layers of fiberglass to the back of an acrylic shell.
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I don't think any of this stuff is any big deal. My point in the whole tp/metal thing was it was a cheaper way to build a spa and now that Watkins wants to come out with a new line that's offers some 'bling" if you will at a lower price point it appears one of the ways to get to that price point is the tp/metal which is fine. It just very much supports all those who have said the reason the company's who build like this do so not because its better but because it costs less to make.
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Just to add I think that someone at some point will come out with all synthetic frame which would last forever but it may be more costly to build at this point, I really do not know.
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Just to add I think that someone at some point will come out with all synthetic frame which would last forever but it may be more costly to build at this point, I really do not know.
I dunno... a 2x4 pressure treated frame could last forever and most structures outlive the spa itself anyway. I doubt it would be worth the added cost...
But what the hell do I know... Ya need any volume conditioner for that thick locks of yours? :D
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ha ha... very funny....what an as*..hey can you get me a deal on the conditioner...your right it might not be worth the cost, unless it turns out to be maybe in the future more cost effective. I agree with you that a well made spas frame will out last the spas life anyway as will most shells...kinda like a car...the frame and structure and even sometimes the motor will hold up while everything else around them falls apart.
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Just to add I think that someone at some point will come out with all synthetic frame which would last forever but it may be more costly to build at this point, I really do not know.
Bullfrog Spas have been manufactured for the last year with an all plastic frame. So far it's been nothing but benefits over the wooden frames.
Hard to tell how much extra it costs, we had a single increase for multiple upgrades.
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Bullfrog Spas have been manufactured for the last year with an all plastic frame. So far it's been nothing but benefits over the wooden frames.
Hard to tell how much extra it costs, we had a single increase for multiple upgrades.
Whoa, hold on, plastic frames? I didn't know that about Bullfrog.
Plastic frames, 95% of the plumbing located behind removable seats, and claims that they never leak, what will they think of next.... ::)
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Whoa, hold on, plastic frames? I didn't know that about Bullfrog.
Introduced in 2007. Love it so far.
Plastic frames, 95% of the plumbing located behind removable seats, and claims that they never leak,
Less plumbing = less chance of a leak (not saying any high end spa is very likely to leak), also very easy to find and repair (notable considering they're full foam).
Sometimes they do leak, I had a 2 1/2 year old 552 to fix last summer. It was very easy compared to other high-end brands I have repaired. Again, good spas don't leak very often, the engineering just makes it less of a problem.
what will they think of next.... ::)
Who knows what any of the manufacturers will come up with?
I just hope if it's brands I sell and service, it makes sense (and hopefully improvement).
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It's a slow day here, so I just called a steel shop and asked them to price 1x2" steel, like for a frame. He quoted me $2.23 per ft.
I called a lumber yard and asked the price of pressure treated 2x2 and 2x4 lumber. He quoted 2x2 at .44 cents and 2x4 at .50 cents per ft. :-?
Based on the difference in cost of these materials, how could it be cheeper to manufacture a frame out of steel?????
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I think your right spahappy that recent prices have now made wood more costly. But in the beginning the steel was cheaper.
That is very cool to know about the Bullfrog and plastic, what have you noticed about most about the differences. Are they more heavy, I would think that they could be if the plastic was very dense.
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That is very cool to know about the Bullfrog and plastic, what have you noticed about most about the differences. Are they more heavy, I would think that they could be if the plastic was very dense.
The brochures say the weight is the same (I personally think they just transferred the old weights as opposed to weighing every model again).
That said, when lifting I do believe they're heavier. But they also added a sealed ABS base, so they're easier to slide. R&D finally approved a new, stronger rigidizer, and I think that may add a bit of weight as well.
They've put an impressive warranty on them (but how many frame failures have you ever seen).
Part of the logic is the precision available with an injection molded part. We'll see what kind of difference it makes.
My two favorite benefits are:
1)Easily removable cabinet panels. They've come up with a great system to make them a snap to remove and replace. For me, this means it's easy to add remotes or outside lighting (and other features as they become available). And, if I do get a rare defective panel, it will take very little work to replace.
2)*WARNING - this part is one man's unproven opinion: I believe it to be a less "natural" environment for pests as opposed to wood (which Bullfrog used until 2006) - I believe metal will offer the same benefit. I think I see less yellow jackets and spiders (spiders are a big deal to me - long story) in the plastic frame. Still, it's WAY too early to tell if this could be true.
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Just to add I think that someone at some point will come out with all synthetic frame which would last forever but it may be more costly to build at this point, I really do not know.
Arctic has been there, done that since 2007. Please see http://www.coyotespas.com for example. The Duracore(tm) Frame is entirely synthetic, no wood, no structural members as such. Arctic's Flex Cabinet(tm) also uses a synthetic unibody-type frame with no structural members. Self-supporting shell makes this possible. Don't know if they'll last forever....
Both versions use replaceable skirting panels of either natural or synthetic wood. I'd like to think that we came up with that first... ;D
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They've put an impressive warranty on them[glow] (but how many frame failures have you ever seen).[/glow]
Part of the logic is the precision available with an injection molded part. We'll see what kind of difference it makes.
.
Just about every spa we take in on trade has a frame that falls apart. Anytime the wood sits on the ground, there is a very good chance that the wood will rot. Even pressure treated wood rots.
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Master apologists among others have argued this point.
Sounds like Mendo has that same ol' burr under his saddle...
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Nope, just speaking the truth and I make no apologies for it.
I mean Watkins wants to build a lower priced spa line and one of the ways to lower the price is to use metal and tp . Looks like they used Master as a roll model for a how to build a cheap spa if you don't like that, than take it up with Watkins.
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Nope, just speaking the truth and I make no apologies for it.
Let's not start bringing truth into this forum.... ;D All hell will break loose!! :o
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Nope, just speaking the truth and I make no apologies for it.
I mean Watkins wants to build a lower priced spa line and one of the ways to lower the price is to use metal and tp . Looks like they used Master as a roll model for a how to build a cheap spa if you don't like that, than take it up with Watkins.
I'm still trying to understand your reasoning for inferring that anyone who might have anything positive to say about MS is an apologist. I guess, with your reasoning, that anyone who says anything a positive about HS, SD, Arctic, Marquis, etc. is an apologist and I just don't agree that this is true.
Master as a roll (role) model? That's what Watkins is saying? That doesn't sound like the Watkins company leadership I know.
As I was enjoying another wonderful soak in my LSX this a.m., I thought about you and your comments for a fleeting moment. A couple of observations:
I hope you have invested in a good blood pressure checking device and I hope you use it regularly...harboring contempt for MS cannot be good for your health... ;)
Secondly, I sincerely hope that whatever spa you enjoy brings as much troublefree pleasure to you as my LSX brings to me and my soaking friends. July will be 4 years of ownership and, so far, not one service call. Plus, my estimates reflect that with the amount of usage my LSX experiences, my monthly electrical cost is about $30-$35/month. Of course being in N. Fla is a benefit for any tub when considering electrical usage.
Mendo, I believe you would serve the readers of this forum better if you would remove the MS burr that seems to boil to the surface upon occasion...it really does nothing but reflect your contempt.
Have a great day and check that blood pressure... 8-)
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Windy your the same old hypocrite you always have been and always will be. In the past I have gone out of my way so many times not to even mention Masters name years ago you accused me of lying about they're well known and phony shows. flat out lying is what I was accused of by you and never once after it has been well documented about thier validity have you ever apologised. Your happy with your tub good for you. But Master spas as a company has hurt the spa industry more than any other company and I am not alone my feelings about this. For you to read this entire thread and find one sentence, one sentence and that is what you comment on says more about you and your grudge towards me, so go take a good long soak and don't forget your meds.
Also if any tech here wants to chime I am confident that they will tell you Masters fit and finish and attention to detail is at best poor. Others here post about master and a mild or no response from you and nothing personal, me I make any comment and your in your attack mode.
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(http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b206/EastTexasSpa/readytorumble.jpg)
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Windy your the same old hypocrite you always have been and always will be.
Good old fashioned name calling...welcome to the second grade.
In the past I have gone out of my way so many times not to even mention Masters name years ago you accused me of lying about they're well known and phony shows. flat out lying is what I was accused of by you and never once after it has been well documented about thier validity have you ever apologised.
I encourage any readers of this post to search for all posts between Mendo and myself and judge accordingly...I'll stand by each and every one...especially the ones where I DID NOT accuse Mendo of lying...which is EVERY POST by my recollection.
And now, after being associated with "Master apologists", Mendo claims I have never apologized...????...ok...which is it, Mendo? You've got me confused now. Either way, I don't understand why I should apologize for anything...maybe you think I should apologize for buying an MS spa? NO WAY! One of the best investiments for my and my family's quality of life I've ever made. I just don't get you, Mendo.
Your happy with your tub good for you. But Master spas as a company has hurt the spa industry more than any other company and I am not alone my feelings about this.
I'll bet Jim the Jim is pissed at this statement... ;D
Please gather up all your buddies to back up your claim. And don't forget to go back and read exactly how I feel about the assertions you make re: MS' business practices...since my thoughts on the subject have already been well documented in archived posts, there is no need for me to reiterate them now. Make up what you wish but I suggest you deal with facts of what was written instead of depending upon your recollection of what was written.
For you to read this entire thread and find one sentence, one sentence and that is what you comment on says more about you and your grudge towards me, so go take a good long saok and don't forget your meds.
I'm quite sorry any of this had to be rehashed. I would have said nothing had you not once again, as you have many times in the past, slung mud and inuendo for no other reason than to vent your contempt...or fish for a rise from me. Give it a rest.
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Also if any tech here wants to chime I am confident that they will tell you Masters fit and finish and attention to detail is at best poor.
Ok, now what is your point?
Others here post about master and a mild or no response from you and nothing personal, me I make any comment and your in your attack mode.
Could it be you that are the only one who feels compelled to resort to elementary school name calling? Well, you betcha...
Funny how all of this would never have appeared were it not for your continued "apologists" comments. Please do us both and everyone who reads this forum a favor and stick to the facts or state your opinions without resorting to childish behavior.
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Good old fashioned name calling...welcome to the second grade.
I encourage any readers of this post to search for all posts between Mendo and myself and judge accordingly...I'll stand by each and every one...especially the ones where I DID NOT accuse Mendo of lying...which is EVERY POST by my recollection.
And now, after being associated with "Master apologists", Mendo claims I have never apologized...????...ok...which is it, Mendo? You've got me confused now. Either way, I don't understand why I should apologize for anything...maybe you think I should apologize for buying an MS spa? NO WAY! One of the best investiments for my and my family's quality of life I've ever made. I just don't get you, Mendo.
I'll bet Jim the Jim is pissed at this statement... ;D
Please gather up all your buddies to back up your claim. And don't forget to go back and read exactly how I feel about the assertions you make re: MS' business practices...since my thoughts on the subject have already been well documented in archived posts, there is no need for me to reiterate them now. Make up what you wish but I suggest you deal with facts of what was written instead of depending upon your recollection of what was written.
I'm quite sorry any of this had to be rehashed. I would have said nothing had you not once again, as you have many times in the past, slung mud and inuendo for no other reason than to vent your contempt...or fish for a rise from me. Give it a rest.
Sure Windy your statement above about 2nd grade simply shows the genuine hypocrite that you are but your ego just won't allow you to see it. As speaking to me about blood pressure and like is some how different.
I am not sure anyone wants to go back to dig up 4 years of posts but if they do, have at it I am sure they will find along history of you apologizing for Masters sales practices and accusing me of lying about their now famous traveling shows. You seem to forget that when I went to the Master show it was to try and find a spa I was not in the business. What you seem to forget is when I just looking and asked here about these shows I did not even mention their name as I wanted a real reaction as it was all new to me. What you also fail to recall is it was only after having many others share their experience about the shows that you begrudgingly acknowledged that they may exsit but within the same breath trying to still make a claim about them being a great product. But for some reason that only person you want to single out regarding them is me. If you feel the need have it.
But all of this is pointless anyway. This thread was a about a cheaper way to build a spa and referencing Master as one who builds like this is certainly relevant. And I am oh so sorry if that raises your blood pressure Sir Windy one.
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Ok, now what is your point?
quote]
Its a simple one really that Master makes a poor product.
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To keep this on topic, the spa Stuart is discussing will be full foam.
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To keep this on topic, the spa Stuart is discussing will be full foam.
Who??? ;D ;D ;D
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Yes it is Tech,
Heres the bottom line for me. Over the years Windy has IN MY OPINION been apologist for Master Spas. When he and I got our adversarial relationship started it was over these shows that he basically told me I was lying about, I remember in one post he used the phrase something being from Missouri and to show him. As time went on and more and more people shared their experience regarding these shows he had no choice but to acknowledge their existence all be it begrudgingly. But he seemed to always take a hostile position towards me singularly. I mean its simple statement of fact that in the past and not here on this forum as much as others that those who like Master defended their build process as being better when those who did not said they built in the manner that they do as a cost saving measure. Now with this thread it is alluded that Watkins wants to make a lower priced spa line and one way considered is to use the TP/Metal build medthod...hummmm who else builds in this way Master, so my point was it simply surports all those who have said over the years this is a cheaper way to make a spa. But in the whole text of this thread Windy finds one sentence and attacks me over it. Speaking about blood pressure and burrs in my saddle. I have big enough stones to admit when I am wrong and to stand behind what I say if I feel I am right. I think he is lacking in this department, the ability to put his ego aside and say OK perhaps I was wrong about a few things and move on is something he lacks the abilty to do.
Tech I am not sure why you removed your post but you were right the meaning for apologist is
a·pol·o·gist ([ch601]-p[ch335]l'[ch601]-j[ch301]st) Pronunciation Key
n. A person who argues in defense or justification of something, such as a doctrine, policy, or institution.
Not someone who offers an apology.
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For Ya'lls Information off the BBB website:
Name: Master Spas, Inc.
SPECIAL NOTE: According to information provided to the BBB by Master Spas, this company's former checking account has been compromised. International Lottery scammers are falsely sending letters enclosing a check that appears to come from this company. The company confirms that it has nothing to do with this scheme. The ploy actually is part of a counterfeit check scheme in the guise of a lottery winnings notification.
Don't fall for scams!
Terminator
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I'm not sure it's relevent to the original topic being discussed, but at least one person posted some facts and data above that seemed to indicate that metal was not a very cost effective material to substitute for wood when building the structure of a spa.
Another interesting data point related to Master Spas and their use of metal is that Master Spas has three product lines of spas. The entry level is the Legacy Whirpool line which is full wood frame construction, The mid-line is Down East which they refer to as hybrid metal-wood (metal corners) that can be upgraded to full metal for about $400 list. The Master Spas Legend series is their upper line which uses the full metal frame. I would find it an odd marketing technique to use what is described here as the most expensive material (full wood) for the least expensive line.
I've seen references to using metal to reduce manufacturing costs, but based on my experience with the cost of materials, the only way this could be true would be if a company was trying to get by using the cheesy tin studs like they use in commercial construction. The Master Spa Legend Tubs I looked at had a welded structural steel frame that appeard to be powder coated.
I don't know if I'm an apologist for Master Spas or not, I own one of thier products, but don't tout it as equal to or better than anything else. I won't defend their phony shows and I'm not really interested in discussing the damage they've done to the spa indstry, but I am a Mechanical Engineer by degree who works as an Industrial Engineer (not in the spa industry) and I did go to one of the phony shows and look at all of the Master Spas products and their construction from an Engineering point of view. My somewhat educated perspective was that they did appear to use more expensive materials and processes in the manufacture of their more expensive line.
Just my thoughts, not trying to pick a fight with anyone.
It's about time to go enjoy a good soak
Chris W
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Wow, did this thread ever take a left turn. :P
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For all readers of this thread,
I apologize for posting 1 simple 1 sentence observation (Mendo's saddle burr) in my 1st post. That would have been the end of it had it not been proven true.
Please note who is calling who a liar without substantiation. Please note who is resorting to adolescent debate tactics.
My apologies for the left turn. Back on topic.
I really don't see where there is a distinct advantage to either metal frames or TP. I think it is more a design philosophy that, when designed and constructed well, produces an energy efficient spa that holds up under the test of time. Coleman, MS and maybe others approach this similarly...Arctic approaches it differently but just as effectively. That's why I feel it is more important for spa buyers to purchase a spa from a major manufacturer and judge the spa based upon therapy provided first, spa retailer reputation second and purchase cost third. All other discussion would be limited to forums like this.
Should Watkins produce a metal framed, TP tub, it is possible that they might be experimenting with a design philosophy change. And, if they do, I bet it will be an energy efficient spa that will last the test of time.
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Also if any tech here wants to chime I am confident that they will tell you Masters fit and finish and attention to detail is at best poor.
If this is true (and I believe it is) (saw MS at a home show yesterday...saw the wavy skirts) then how can you accuse Watkins of using Master as a role model for a hypothetical spa line that has not been released?
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Go back and read what has been posted. A cheaper way to build a spa and it is suggested they are thinking of using Metal/TP. I never thought Watkins was actually at looking at Master to learn how to do this. If you go and read all along what I have said, my simple point was that if Watkins does want to build a lower priced spa and they are considering using this method it is interesting because for a long time the debate has been that using metal/tp was a cheaper way to build. It would certainly be strange that in thier desire to build a lower priced line the structure would actually cost more. No not in the real world, it would not happen. It may not happen anyway as it appears to be things they are considering. As for this whole Master discussion the only person (Windsurfdog) could have read this thread and (prior to Windsurf dog taking his typical shot at me) come with the impression that I was bashing Master. They certainly could have after... :)
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For Ya'lls Information off the BBB website:
Name: Master Spas, Inc.
SPECIAL NOTE: According to information provided to the BBB by Master Spas, this company's former checking account has been compromised. International Lottery scammers are falsely sending letters enclosing a check that appears to come from this company. The company confirms that it has nothing to do with this scheme. The ploy actually is part of a counterfeit check scheme in the guise of a lottery winnings notification.
Don't fall for scams!
Terminator
Term, please help me understand what this report by MS to BBB has to do with this discussion. Are you trying to associate MS with the scam that they themselves have reported? Please help me understand your inference.
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For all readers of this thread,
I apologize for posting 1 simple 1 sentence observation (Mendo's saddle burr) in my 1st post. That would have been the end of it had it not been proven true.
Please note who is calling who a liar without substantiation. Please note who is resorting to adolescent debate tactics.
My apologies for the left turn. Back on topic.
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No the burr in my saddle is you. What gives you the right to come and take a shot at me. You than go on to make other personal statements about me and after doing so I respond and you accuse me of 2nd grade name calling ( see hypocrite ). Stating that I find you to be a complete and total hypocrite is not name calling it is reference to your character and who you are. I think the above post simply demonstrates more of this example from you. You hold others (me) to different level of accountability than what you hold yourself to. I made reference in my post that the debate over which was a cheaper way to build has been kicked around with many, including master apologists. You come here and twist that into something its not. Go back and read very slowly it is clear that all I said was it was interesting as this would support those who have said tp/metal was a cheaper way to build.
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As for this whole Master discussion there is only one person who can have read this thread and prior to Windsurf dog taking his typical shot at me come with the impression that I was bashing Master. They certainly could have after... :)
"Master apologist"...hmmm...ok, you've got a funny way of not bashing. Please accept my "apology" for even thinking that you might have been bashing MS with that comment...I stand corrected...I guess...
Oh, and if casually mentioning the burr under your saddle is taking a shot at you, then I guess I'm guilty of that also. You seem to be pretty sensitive about all of this. Maybe the duck's back approach would be better...
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No the burr in my saddle is you. What gives you the right to come and take a shot at me. You than go on to make other personal statements about me and after doing I respond and you accuse me of 2nd grade name calling ( see hypocrite ). Suggesting that I find you to be a complete and total hypocrite is not name calling it is reference to your character and who you are. I think the above post simply demonstrates more of this example from you. You hold others (me) different level of accountability than what you hold yourself to. I made reference in my post that the debate over which was a cheaper way to build has been kicked around and with master apologists. You come here and twist that into something its not. Go back and read very slowly it is clear that all I said was it was interesting as this would support those who have said tp/metal was a cheaper way to build.
Think "duck's back"...and have a nice soak and fuggetaboutit...
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"Master apologist"...hmmm...ok, you've got a funny way of not bashing. Please accept my "apology" for even thinking that you might have been bashing MS with that comment...I stand corrected...I guess...
Oh, and if casually mentioning the burr under your saddle is taking a shot at you, then I guess I'm guilty of that also. You seem to be pretty sensitive about all of this. Maybe the duck's back approach would be better...
Apology accepted. I will try the ducks approach and had it been anyone but you it would have been much easier to let it pass.
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Just to bring this full cirlce below is my post that started this thing and I think it is cystal clear that it was never Master bashing.
Spiderman posted:
"I haven't heard anything about HotSpring building a new spa I have heard however that Watkins Manufacturing is considering a new line of metal frame TP spa Whatever happens, I have confidence that Watkins knows what they're doing."
And my first post in this discussion:
"If you are at liberty to say. Would this be the same line that has already been mentioned here that is a go for production. Spas with more jets, lights for less dollars. Interesting if it is because it has always been argued by many that it cost more more money to produce a wood frame-full foam spa than a TP and metal frame. Master apologists among others have argued this point."
Now getting back to the subject. If this line ever does come out and if it is with tp/meatal it will be interesting to see Watkins spin on it, meaning how they produce it that may be different from what others currently do.
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Just about every spa we take in on trade has a frame that falls apart. Anytime the wood sits on the ground, there is a very good chance that the wood will rot. Even pressure treated wood rots.
Sounds like I need to rethink how strong of a mention I give this in a presentation.
Thank you. :)
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[size=14]OK - I can't stand this any longer.
Here is a photo of the spa in question, and a complete explanation of Watkins' thinking regarding the release of this new sp[/size]
[size=9] {post has been beamed up by the mother ship. Standby for further information as soon as the Kool Aid takes effect. That is all } [/size]
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;D ;D nice one Chas
;D ;D
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I'm back.
I just ordered my first two "Limelight" spas online. Only one model in two colors seems to be available right now, but it is obvious that they are working late tonight in Vista...
My in box is full of letters, spec sheets and announcements.
8-)
PS - it's FULL FOAM