Hot Tub Forum
Original => Hot Tub Forum => Topic started by: Chad on December 26, 2007, 07:12:19 pm
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I've noticed these small brown dots on my spa's shell. They can be found in and out of the water. The ones in the water rub off pretty easy with my hand. The ones outside are more stubborn. This is my 4th or 5th fill and is the first time I've seen these before. I'm not doing/using anything different this time around. My only guess is that it's from the ozonator. Has anyone had or heard of this before and what is it?
Thanks,
Chad
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Chad,
For what ever it is worth, I had those too, right before I got the hot tub dermatitis. My dealer thought it was possible that it was an algae. I majorly shocked and they disappeared. Mine kind of looked like rust spots.
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Chad,
For what ever it is worth, I had those too, right before I got the hot tub dermatitis. My dealer thought it was possible that it was an algae. I majorly shocked and they disappeared. Mine kind of looked like rust spots.
Thanks for the heads up Illinifan. Your rust spot comparison is right on. Hopefully it's not to late as I've soaked with the spots a few times now.
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Tileman, are you still experimenting with less or no dichlor after every use? Maybe you can shock and go back to your old routine. Let us know how it goes...........
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I've noticed these small brown dots on my spa's shell.
Chad,
Sounds like black algae, I have had it in our pool. I asked a question about it here to all the pool/spa dealers. The best way to get rid of it is to scrub the area where you see it really well, supposedly black algae can attach itself right into the shell. Then raise your chlorine level for a while to help kill it off. There are algicides available for pools that may work also although I'm not sure about using them in a hot tub. If your near a water change maybe you could circulate an algicide though your tub overnight just before draining it.
Good luck and Happy Holidays
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Its a rare flesh eating bacteria that only attacks the feet. Once the brown dots show up its too late the damage is done.
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BILL !!!!
8-)
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BILL !!!!
8-)
Good morning Chas, your up early.
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Chad,
Sounds like black algae, I have had it in our pool. I asked a question about it here to all the pool/spa dealers. The best way to get rid of it is to scrub the area where you see it really well, supposedly black algae can attach itself right into the shell. Then raise your chlorine level for a while to help kill it off. There are algicides available for pools that may work also although I'm not sure about using them in a hot tub. If your near a water change maybe you could circulate an algicide though your tub overnight just before draining it.
Good luck and Happy Holidays
Ok, so no one thinks it's just from my ozonator. Sounds like I need to be taking this a little more serious.
Thanks for all the advice.
Chad
PS- I forgot to mention that there is some major spotting on the underside of my cover as well. I'm going to take a few pictures for you guys....
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Dichlor Shock, with the lid closed. If you can, give it a scrub first to open the surface of the stuff up a bit.
After the shock, you should rinse the filter.
8-)
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This is a shot of the ones on my cover. They look alot different than the ones on my shell.
(http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r165/tileman_photos/IMG_0536.jpg)
This is a shot of some dots outside the water on the shell.
(http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r165/tileman_photos/IMG_0535.jpg)
This is on the seat directly above the ozone port.
(http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r165/tileman_photos/IMG_0534.jpg)
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Dichlor Shock, with the lid closed. If you can, give it a scrub first to open the surface of the stuff up a bit.
After the shock, you should rinse the filter.
8-)
Thanks Chas. I just finished doing everything you recommended.
A couple of things I noticed during these procedures-
1) The spots inside the water are more stubborn than I thought.
2) The closer to the ozone port, the more spots.
3) The spots are only on horizontal surfaces and not any vertical.
4) My water is balanced, crystal clear, odor free, and doesn't have an abnormal chlorine demand.
Is it possible that it's just some sort of metal deposit coming from the ozonator?
But then how would the spots get on the shell up out of the water? Sorry, I'm just thinkin out loud.
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Tileman, are you still experimenting with less or no dichlor after every use? Maybe you can shock and go back to your old routine. Let us know how it goes...........
Chad...were you experimenting still with your level of dichlor? Doing anything different?
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No. I've been doing everything the same. Like I said, there's no abnormal chlorine demand, my water's chem levels are very stable, and I haven't had any issues with water clarity or odor. That's why I think it might be from the ozonator. I guess I'll give it a day or two and see what happens. If more start to appear after this 12ppm FC shock, I'll be disconnecting my ozonator.
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It's either black algea or mold. Without sunlight I don't know if algea will grow.
I believe one of the byproducts of MPS is phosphates which algea LOVE.
Also with your not using chlorine the spots may be the results of it - something decided to grow.
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It's either black algea or mold. Without sunlight I don't know if algea will grow.
I believe one of the byproducts of MPS is phosphates which algea LOVE.
Also with your not using chlorine the spots may be the results of it - something decided to grow.
Ok, thanks Vinny. So you definetly think it is not from my ozonator.
So I guess mold and algae don't raise the water's demand for dichlor. Or maybe I'm just not noticing that it is. :-/
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Mold won't, algea will.
I had an instance where my pool used over 15 PPM overnight. I always add chlorine to my pool once the sun is off of it (sun will destroy chlorine) and I woke up in the morning to 0 chlorine - I had to hit it hard the next night. Algea and or bacteria will even eat the stabilizer - I just had that this year.
I am leaning towards it not being black algea because of the lack of sunlightt. I guess it could be bacteria under the water and mold above the water. I think that once a protective layer forms on bacteria that normal levels of chlorine can't penetrate it so it doesn't get consumed. I am also thinking it's also in the pipes as well.
I would raise the chlorine level to over 10 PPM and leave it there for a day or two unless you want to totally nuke the tub with 50+ PPM chlorine. I would run the jets a lot (at least 1 hour) and wipe down the cover with that highly chlorinated water ... maybe 2x. You should be able to get rid of it all.
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Thanks Vinny.
I guess I was pushing the limits of my Nature 2 and ozone for too long and this is what I got. I'm assuming it was a gradual thing and not an overnighter. Looks like I'll be going back to an unmodified Vermonter Method again. I'll just have to dump and refill a little more often due to how fast it raises the CYA but I'd rather do that than have this happen again, for sure.
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I just bit the bullet and jumped in the spa while it had nearly an FC of 10ppm. It was the only way I could reach all the spots. I just used a magic eraser and alot of elbow grease and they all came off. As soon as I got out I added another 4 ppm dose with the cover closed. Luckily I don't have sensitive skin.
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I was once in my tub with over 20 PPM chlorine ... it smelled a little like chlorine but it wasn't until I actually took a reading that I saw it was that high. My tub had developed chlorine lock for some reason but I didn't know it and I kept adding chlorine and shocking as normal.
Don't forget to run the jets!
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Chad,
It really sounds like the same thing I had. My water was clear too. At the time I was using the reserve and renew system. I took a tooth brush and brushed all around my jets. Don't forget as well to run you air and water fall. Since I super shocked it, I kept my bromine level greater than could read on my strips for 5 days, I have not seen it return. And although I did not drain my water, knock on wood, I have had no further rash. Good luck!
Cathy
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Thanks Cathy. I'll triple check to make sure all water outlets are on and open. Good idea with the toothbrush.
I'm gonna try and do what Vinny said and keep my FC around 10 ppm for a few days and go from there. I was just out there and all is clear except for some small areas on my cover that just don't want to go away. I've scrubbed it down three times today with highly chlorinated water and kept the cover on during shocking. Hopefully it will clear by morning......
Chad
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I've tried to keep my water at a 10+ppm FC the best I could for the past 36 hours. (I'm afraid to check my other levels, especially my CYA. I'm sure they're all out of wack now.) Everything in and out of the water, on the shell cleared up a few hours after the first supershock and not returned. There's only just a few faint spots on the underside of the cover now, but they are however progressively getting better. This morning I took one of those deck brushes and scubbed it down a 4th time. If it's not completely cleared by morning, do you guys think it would be ok to use a product such as Tilex directly on the cover? Any other ideas?
Thanks,
Chad
Btw, it's a good thing I have a lighter colored shell(Platinum White) because I don't think I would have been able to see the spots otherwise. This is the main reason I buy Pearl White cars as well. It's one of a few colors that enables you to truly say," My car is spotless."
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Chad, I use Chlorox Clean up.. since it is chlorine based. I don't know what is in Tilex, it may be sodium Hydroxide..so check that first. The Chlorox works great even for cleaning my tub when I do a dump and refill. I just rinse it out of the tub. I think on the cover you could just scrub and wipe off. good luck
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Chad, I use Chlorox Clean up.. since it is chlorine based. I don't know what is in Tilex, it may be sodium Hydroxide..so check that first. The Chlorox works great even for cleaning my tub when I do a dump and refill. I just rinse it out of the tub. I think on the cover you could just scrub and wipe off. good luck
Thanks Bonni.
Yeah Tilex Mold and Mildew Remover does contain sodium hydroxide. Why is this a no no? Is Chlorox Clean Up the wipes?
I'm at the point now where I just want to use straight bleach. Everything seems to be fine except for some really faint spots on the underside of my cover. I've kept my water close to 10ppm for over 2 days now. My only concern now is with the cover but I don't know what else to do. I've scubbed it down with that highly chlorinated water 5 times! Not to mention keeping the cover closed to all the off gasing during shocks.
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Chad--The Clorox wipes I have do not contain chlorine/bleach.
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Chad,
I wouldn't worry too much about the stabilizer. Any and all of us that use dichlor have high CYA in a month and really high in 3 months. Most people who own pools use trichlor and their stabilizer is probably through the roof as well. Remember that every time we add 1 PPM chlorine we are ading 0.9 PPM CYA.
Chlorine is still killing bacteria at 300 PPM CYA although it doesn't kill the hot tub itch bacteria.
Instead of changing completely why don't you modify your current way of doing things - maybe add chlorine 1/2 way through your week instead of MPS and see how that goes.
As far as cleaning the cover, I usually only use bleach and water and let it sit a while on the cover. I do notice that anything that resembles mold ( I sometimes get a pink substance on my cover) takes a while to disappear completely.
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Vinny--mold and mildew can be just about any color of the rainbow. Bathroom midlew is often pink, so you maybe dealing with some sort of growth on your cover.
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Chad,
I wouldn't worry too much about the stabilizer. Any and all of us that use dichlor have high CYA in a month and really high in 3 months. Most people who own pools use trichlor and their stabilizer is probably through the roof as well. Remember that every time we add 1 PPM chlorine we are ading 0.9 PPM CYA.
Chlorine is still killing bacteria at 300 PPM CYA although it doesn't kill the hot tub itch bacteria.
Instead of changing completely why don't you modify your current way of doing things - maybe add chlorine 1/2 way through your week instead of MPS and see how that goes.
As far as cleaning the cover, I usually only use bleach and water and let it sit a while on the cover. I do notice that anything that resembles mold ( I sometimes get a pink substance on my cover) takes a while to disappear completely.
Thanks as usual Vinny. You brought up some good points.
I'm using an N2 and have 03 as you know. I was only adding two 3-4 ppm doses of dichlor a week and a buffered mps shock every 7-10 days. Every thing seemed fine. I was never registering any CC and my water was always clear and odorless. There was never any abnormal dichlor demand either. I'm assuming if I would have just swapped the mps shock with a dichlor dose higher than my usual 3-4 ppm dose, maybe 7-10 ppm, I wouldn't have had this problem. My tub was never getting that "super sanitizing" effect. For as many times as I've read Vermonter's Method of dichlor dosing you would have thought I would have abided by one of his golden rules. :-[ Live and Learn.
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(Deep breath) Okay, so here's the situation. I just got back in from my spa and I noticed some spots on the shell have reappeared. As you know I completely nuked my tub the past few days. My cover is looking alot better and is almost cleared up 100%. So my question is, could these spots on the shell be from something else besides bacteria such as tiny asphalt crumbs falling from my roof into my spa?
My tub sits only about 3' from my house and has always accumulated alot of these crumbs. I don't get them out as often as I should. It should be done weekly but I might do it monthly. Could this be my problem or am I in lala land?
Thanks,
Chad
Btw, I do notice some rust colored areas on my concrete patio and on top of my cover. Is there something in asphalt that turns things a rusty color? I hope so!
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(Deep breath) Okay, so here's the situation. I just got back in from my spa and I noticed some spots on the shell have reappeared. As you know I completely nuked my tub the past few days. My cover is looking alot better and is almost cleared up 100%. So my question is, could these spots on the shell be from something else besides bacteria such as tiny asphalt crumbs falling from my roof into my spa?
My tub sits only about 3' from my house and has always accumulated alot of these crumbs. I don't get them out as often as I should. It should be done weekly but I might do it monthly. Could this be my problem or am I in lala land?
Thanks,
Chad
Btw, I do notice some rust colored areas on my concrete patio and on top of my cover. Is there something in asphalt that turns things a rusty color? I hope so!
There is a product used on lawnd called "Ironite" that WILL create rust spots on concrete (and pretty much anything else it touches). Is it possible that you had a lawn service that used that product and this is the end result?
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Ndabunka, I do all my own yard work. I did put down some triple 13 fertilizer in early November. I wonder if that has the same effect?
I just got done doing some google searching on my problem and it seems that it's more common than I thought.
From what I gathered, the most common cause of these rust(copper) colored spots is from corrosion of the heater core. Has anyone heard of this here? Supposedly this corrosion of the heater causes a high amount of copper to be released into the water and cause staining on the shell. It's recommended once you notice these type of spots to have your water checked for copper. I've never had my water tested for minerals but it looks like I will. Come to think of it, my last two fills I haven't put in a bottle of METAL GONE during start up. Maybe my water is already high in copper and it's not the heater.
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I have to say I don't know where this would come from. If dropping from above from the roof your spa would be protected by its cover and the cover is on 99% of the time. I have trees by me and when they drop their leaves I have a mess but my tub gets maybe 4 or 5 leaves in the tub when it's open to shock or use but we're talking 1,000s of leaves coming down. If you have a blower it wouldn't be strong enough to suck debris into the cabinet and into the spa.
Your tub is only about a year old and from what I remember you have been pretty good with the water chemistry during this time. Have you had low PH for extended periods of time? If not, I can't see how the heater core would be going in such a short period of time. Honestly, I work on hyperthermia units that the heater cores last 20+ years with no water maintenance what so ever. Also, the heater core wouldn't be thowing rust spots outside the tub.
Is it possible that it's the N2 breaking up? Maybe that's all it is. Copper turns green when oxidized doesn't stay red (take a look at the Statue of Liberty).
Maybe take a close up picture and post it here or bring it to your dealer.
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If any thing my pH has been a little on the high side as of late.(but still in range of course)
The heater thing kinda makes sense to me. I'd say about 75% of all the dots are located near the hot water outlet. The ones located outside of the spa but still on the shell are only located on the side where I get in and out. So maybe the water that drips off me is staying on the surface long enough to stain.
I rinsed my filters again today and my N2 seemed fine. I'm really clueless here.
I guess my first course of action is to get my water tested for minerals. Then depending on the results, I might disconnect my ozone, take out the N2, and just go back to straight dichlor. I'm really just fishing at this point.
My dealer is absolutely clueless when it comes to water care. So, I'll be taking a sample to Leslie's where I'll ask for there opinions on the matter.
I've soaked in the spa with these spots alot and have had no signs of a rash. There have even been 3 other people besides myself who haved soaked in the past week or so and they are clear too.
:-?Chad :-/
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Chad, first you need to put all the facts together:
Is this right?
The dots are on the cover (not likely that they were deposited there from the heater)
The dots are on the outside of the shell (also unlikely that the heater sent them there)
You are thinking that the brown "stuff" is a mineral, but I am wondering why it would precipitate out in small dots only in certain locations and especially why they would appear on the cover. do they appear like a translucent stain or solid material? I am guessing solid since you think they could be from shingles.
Is there any way that oil from a pump could get blown into the water lines?
See if you can collect a few small dots on a piece of white paper. See if they smear or are solid as you try to rub them across the paper using a butter knife. Maybe take a piece of white paper and press it on some dots on your cover and see if they transfer to the paper.
Vinny, I think this calls for a thorough investigation...maybe we need to take a field trip, this is getting very interesting! :-?
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Boni,
The spots on my cover were a different species than the ones on my shell. I think those were just mildew stains.
I'll go out in the morning and try to get a sample and experiment with it.
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Seems like a weird coincidence though, don't you think? Maybe totally unrelated, but I am curious to see what you find tomorrow. good luck
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Thanks Boni.
The difference though is that I've dealt with those mildew stains on my cover in the past. The ones in/on my spa are a completely new thing.
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Chad,
I inspected my tub today in the bright sunlight. I had about 4 little rust spots about the size of a large pencil lead on the bottom of my tub near the filter in the footwell under the water fall. They come off easily when rubbed with a fingernail. My bromine is fine even a tad high, my ph was a little high and my alkalinity was slightly low, although all this with strips only. I am still betting we have the same thing. I have a jacuzzi too with the same shell as you. my dealer thought this was algae. Now I am not so sure either. I do not have ozone, so that is ruled out. I did not use metal gone as dealer felt not necessary with our city water. So now you got me wondering again what is going on. Nothing on my cover, but I do have a closed cell floating foam cover.
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Cool, I'm not alone. ;)
Your description does sound very familiar to mine. They don't smear when rubbed but rather "flake/scratch" off. Mine are no bigger than this [size=72].[/size]
Hopefully I'll get some more solid info after my water analysis tomarrow.
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Chad...were you experimenting still with your level of dichlor? Doing anything different?
No. I've been doing everything the same. Like I said, there's no abnormal chlorine demand, my water's chem levels are very stable, and I haven't had any issues with water clarity or odor. That's why I think it might be from the ozonator. I guess I'll give it a day or two and see what happens. If more start to appear after this 12ppm FC shock, I'll be disconnecting my ozonator.
Thanks Vinny.
I guess I was pushing the limits of my Nature 2 and ozone for too long and this is what I got. I'm assuming it was a gradual thing and not an overnighter. Looks like I'll be going back to an unmodified Vermonter Method again. I'll just have to dump and refill a little more often due to how fast it raises the CYA but I'd rather do that than have this happen again, for sure.
Tileman, I thought you said you were doing everything the same? I guess I was confused? :)
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I'm 2 months into my second fill doing the same routine.
My very first and 2nd fill I followed a strict Vermonter Method. I didn't have any problems at all with my last fill(#3) and I was doing the same exact routine I'm doing with this fill(#4). Matter of fact, it was my longest lasting one. That's why it's so hard for me to beleive that it's some sort of bacteria growth. I mean I'm anal with my water. I shower 9 out 10 times before I soak. I'm pretty much the only bather and my levels are always in line.
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Tileman, maybe you can contact Vermonter or send the muck to a lab. I'm sure you would like to know if it's some type of bacteria or not. Just as long as you don't have a rash you'll be OK. :)
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Vinny, I think this calls for a thorough investigation...maybe we need to take a field trip, this is getting very interesting! :-?
I think Chad should PM me with his credit card number and I'll make our arrangements to get to him. I'll pack my Taylor kit, digital camera and bathing suit. Boni, you can pack whatever you like but don't forget the petri dishes for anaysis.
Of course your husband and my wife may think it's a bit strange but hey it's in the name of science.
Oh, BTW so that Chad knows that he's getting a professional service I'll even forgo combing my hair (OK it's close to a buzz cut) and have that Einstein look going! ;D
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Stealing a quote from Rod Roddy, "Come on down".
This morning I checked the tub and couldn't find any spots. Very strange. :-?
My cover is now 100% clear.
I tested all levels for the first time since I nuked my tub as my FC is finally back to about 2 ppm. Last weekend my pH and alk were at a 7.5 and 90(where they were for the previous 4 weeks) This morning they were ridiculously low at 6.6-6.7 and 40. I knew they'd be low with all the dichlor I added over the past 3 days but not that low. I added 5 ounces of Baking Soda and I'm currently waiting for the dose to be thouroughly mixed.
Vinny, is possible that my pH being low for that short of a time caused damage to my heater.
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No, I don't think PH being in the 6.6 range for a week will eat a heater up.
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No, I don't think PH being in the 6.6 range for a week will eat a heater up.
I would agree, especially on a newer tub.
8-)
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No, I don't think PH being in the 6.6 range for a week will eat a heater up.
I would agree, especially on a newer tub.
8-)
Thanks guys.
Leslie's was closed yesterday, so no water analysis yet. Are those test strips that can measure for minerals like copper, iron, etc ...any good at all?
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Update-
I had the water tested at Leslie's and sure enough it's high in copper. I still don't know the culprit though. I got in touch with Jacuzzi Jim and he thinks it's highly improbable that it's my heater core. Maybe it's the Nature 2 or maybe my tap water is just high in copper. Or maybe a combo of both. Or maybe it's not even copper deposits and something that just looks like copper and it's just a coincedene that my water is high in copper. :-/ :-?
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Are the pipes in your house copper and could your tap water Ph be low? do you ever see green in your sinks or bath tub around the drain? Acid water can eat the copper from the pipes. I wonder though if it would be enough to cause what you are experiencing. :-/
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It was suggested to me that electrolosis (sp?) of the pipes can cause the pipes to errode too.
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Are the pipes in your house copper and could your tap water Ph be low? do you ever see green in your sinks or bath tub around the drain? Acid water can eat the copper from the pipes. I wonder though if it would be enough to cause what you are experiencing. :-/
My pipes are copper and my tap water has a pH of 8+ppm and an alk of 120-140ppm.
I don't ever see a green residue around my drains but my tap water does however have a green tint to it. I wasn't thinking ahead and forgot to bring a tap water sample to Leslie's along with my spa sample. :-[
It was suggested to me that electrolosis (sp?) of the pipes can cause the pipes to errode too.
I'm not familar with electrolosis Vinny. If you could explain it to me I would apreciate it. I think I'm googled out for the day.
Thanks,
Chad
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What happens is that if there is any electrical current being applied to the coper pipes the copper will be sent into the water. It doesn't have to be a lot just enough (milliamps) to get this process going. This was explained to me by my water company when I asked why my water had a green tint to it. It was during the summer and I believe it was from the trees overhead. I do have low PH water in my township which might contribute to some of this I guess.
I doubt that electrolosis is the case in most houses simply because all the plumbing is grounded and I would think any short to ground (hot to ground or neutral) would cause a breaker to trip.
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How do you go about neutralizing copper if it is in your spa? Maybe you will need to have water delivered as a possible solution.
Tony
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I think the metal gone product will remove the copper if you use it when you refill. (I don't have time to go all the way back, but I think I remember Chad saying he didn't remember to use it this time he refilled)
When I refill, I typically put in my old filters and let the metal gone (or what ever metal sequestering product you use) do it's job before I add any other chemicals. I once had a tub of greenish water, so I know to wait a while, especially before adding my bromine. After the tub is up to temp and I balance my water, I pull those filters. Mine are usually full of iron. :P
When my domestic water filters are left off (or I am out of neutralizer in my tank, I see green in my sinks, so I know I have a copper problem at times from my pipes) :-/
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Chad - based on the 50-some other posts I've read in this topic, this does not look to be a mineral problem. In a wide range of mineral contents and years with a copper based sanitation system - I've never seen this from a mineral.
Some similar manifestations but none to match (from minerals).
Aside from that, the fact that they disappeared when your pH dropped (and at 6.6 your dichlor became very "agressive"), strongly points to a bacterial or algae (my best guess) culprit.
I understand you take GREAT care of your spa, the truth is some of the hot water "pests" we deal with are extremely resistant when they get a foothold. One or two days of low sanitizer or high pH can start this. As they say "happens to the best of us".
Usually, righting the pH and sanitizer over a few days or week will solve the problem.
I've seen similar things, although never with a health side effect. Every time I've seen skin infections, there were no visible tells (save for slightly cloudy water).
I hope this helps - hate to see a guy worry himself out of his spa.
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Thanks for taking the time BauerN. I really do apreciate it.
I had my tap water analyzed today along with another sample of my fill water.
My tap water is .2ppm lower in copper than my fill. So something I've added to the water or something from the spa must be contributing a significant amount of copper.
.2 ppm copper is the maximum amount allowed to be present in a spa before a metal remover should be used. Anything over 1ppm and a refill is needed. The "pool and spa chemical specialist" at Leslie's gave me some stuff called Spa Metal Free. It's a metal deactivation agent that is suppose to prevent staining and discoloration from trace metals. He said that this should prevent any more dots from forming but will not "get rid" of the existing ones. So today I scrubbed all the existing spots off and added the product. I guess I'll know within a few days whether or not this is a mineral problem.
I brought him pictures of the spots and described, as best I could, what exactly was going on. He thinks it's copper spots and the likely culprit is my heater but he told me not to rule out the Nature 2. He's seen such problems as mine from both but it's more likely, in his opinion, that it's the heater core. Only time will tell I guess.
Thanks for all your concerns everyone. Hopefully I will get a little piece of mind in the upcoming days.
Chad
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Hey Chad I just called Jacuzzi tech. And like I thought the element itself is stainless steel, he doubted there was any kind of copper in there at all as far as wiring holding the element in place. I really am starting to think its partly the nat 2 and something else causing it??
If your heater is falling apart from the inside, (first I would have ever seen from laing) it will start tripping the breaker pretty quick, I would think.
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Thanks alot Jim. :)
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Hey Chad I just called Jacuzzi tech. And like I thought the element itself is stainless steel, he doubted there was any kind of copper in there at all as far as wiring holding the element in place. I really am starting to think its partly the nat 2 and something else causing it??
If your heater is falling apart from the inside, (first I would have ever seen from laing) it will start tripping the breaker pretty quick, I would think.
I was thinking the same thing. Jacuzzi heaters are either SS or titanium. I don't think the spa N2 cartridge contains copper either...silver and zinc I believe.
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I don't think the spa N2 cartridge contains copper either...silver and zinc I believe.
You're right Tony. I just read the Nature 2 website and sure enough N2 Spa uses zinc and silver. While N2 Pool uses silver and copper.
I wonder how the copper is getting into my water? Have you been following this thread? What's your take on my problem?
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You're right Tony. I just read the Nature 2 website and sure enough N2 Spa uses zinc and silver. While N2 Pool uses silver and copper.
I wonder how the copper is getting into my water? Have you been following this thread? What's your take on my problem?
Chad
I have been following the thread. It certainly is a mystery but it is good that you've identified the copper. I would add a bottle of LeisureTime Metal Gon at next fill and see if it helps. My tap water is high in iron and manganese. Tastes good but can stain. I had some brown staining on a white part of a couple of jets that I first thought was algae and finally realized it was a metal stain. I couldn't get it clean and was resigned to the fact that these stains would remain. Next fill I added Metal Gon and stains disappeared.....like magic.
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Thanks Tony.
The guy at Leslie's said that the Spa Metal Free product he sold me, does the same things as Metal Gone and more. Is this accurate or should I go buy a bottle of Metal Gone? There's quite a significant price difference.
Metal Gone -$7
Spa Metal Free -$18.
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Thanks Tony.
The guy at Leslie's said that the Spa Metal Free product he sold me, does the same things as Metal Gone and more. Is this accurate or should I go buy a bottle of Metal Gone? There's quite a significant price difference.
Metal Gone -$7
Spa Metal Free -$18.
Spa Metal Free looks more like a stain and scale product like LT's Defender. It is something that you add weekly (priced like Defender also). Metal Gon is added only when you drain and fill. You add the whole bottle. It sequesters the metals rather than remove them. I would use the Metal Gon next time you fill. Use the Spa Metal Free weekly...it won't hurt to use both.
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Spa Metal Free looks more like a stain and scale product like LT's Defender. It is something that you add weekly (priced like Defender also). Metal Gon is added only when you drain and fill. You add the whole bottle. It sequesters the metals rather than remove them. I would use the Metal Gon next time you fill. Use the Spa Metal Free weekly...it won't hurt to use both.
Thanks for the help/advice Tony.
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Hi Chad, you mentioned the copper content of your water, but did you get a reading for iron? I thought that iron spots were usually rust colored and copper spots were blue/green or black. Just a thought.
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My iron was .2ppm and my copper was .3ppm. As far as the color of my spots, I'd say they're either brown or black.
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Since I've added the Spa Metal Free stuff, I haven't had any new spots. I'm still not going to fully believe that was my problem until I have atleast a couple more spot free days...
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Still no spots. :)
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Man oh man, not the way I wanted to start my weekend. The spots are back and worse than ever. There wasn't any a few days ago and now there's about 100(pretty much located in just one area of my spa). It's gotta be some sort of ozonator discharge. I'm gonna remove the panel and see what the tubing looks like. I bet it's filled with gunk. Here are some pics of the spots. Click to enlarge.
(http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r165/tileman_photos/th_IMG_0594.jpg) (http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r165/tileman_photos/IMG_0594.jpg)
(http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r165/tileman_photos/th_IMG_0593.jpg) (http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r165/tileman_photos/IMG_0593.jpg)
(http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r165/tileman_photos/th_IMG_0592.jpg) (http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r165/tileman_photos/IMG_0592.jpg)
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If it is an ozonator problem...why did the spots disappear for quite a while?
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Chad,
When you looked at the ozonator's hose that went to the injector was there a loop that went above the water line? This is called a hartford loop, by all accounts it should be a large loop and the tops of it should be above the water line. This picture shows a little loop but it shouldn't matter for air. I have seen pics where the loop may be a foot or more in diameter.
(http://www.spadepot.com/images/oz-manifold.gif)
If you don't have this - do it. There would be no way for ozonator gunk to get into the spa if it had to go up a large loop. I would do it such as a cursive ( vs printed) lower case "L" with 2 loops in the center.
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If it is an ozonator problem...why did the spots disappear for quite a while?
Good question. I don't know what it is but that's my best guess.
There's no way that not even one person on this forum knows what this is and/or has never seen something like this before. Someone's gotta be holding out on me. :( :'(
Surely I can't be dealing with that unique of a problem.........
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Chad,
When you looked at the ozonator's hose that went to the injector was there a loop that went above the water line? This is called a hartford loop, by all accounts it should be a large loop and the tops of it should be above the water line. This picture shows a little loop but it shouldn't matter for air. I have seen pics where the loop may be a foot or more in diameter.
(http://www.spadepot.com/images/oz-manifold.gif)
If you don't have this - do it. There would be no way for ozonator gunk to get into the spa if it had to go up a large loop. I would do it such as a cursive ( vs printed) lower case "L" with 2 loops in the center.
Last year I noticed the amount of bubbles coming out of the ozone port decreased and they were also smaller in diameter. I took some advice from Tony and disconnected the tubing, thouroughly cleaned it, and then mounted it back up with a hartford loop like in your picture(the tech who installed it originally, didn't use a hartford loop). After getting everything back together and turned on she was bubblin' like she's never bubbled before. I was amazed at how much it helped.
I still have yet to open up the panel today as it was cold, there was a bunch of snow on the ground in front of my spa, and my drill's battery was dead. It's now-not so cold, the snow is shoveled, and my battery is fully charged. So I'm going back out after a quick bite to eat.
Thanks for lookin out. :) I'll keep you posted.
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Doubt its the ozonator, I talked to our tech (he's been doing it for 15 years) as well as Jacuzzi tech per our conversation awhile back.
its a pretty strange situation, if bits of metal are coming from the heater they should/would get stuck and clog up your mazzi injector, which is after the heater thus you would not have heat and a flo error would show up.
The heater is the only psc of metal that the water passes over or through, the element and the heater tube are stainless steel. The only real theory I can come up with if possible, very small bits of the heater tube inside are corroding something I have never seen in a Jacuzzi yet. But if it was a bad tube or element always possible since its man made I suppose it could happen?
Other than that I am stumped, unless its possible small bits of grit from your patio are to blame? Or its coming from your nat2 cartridge?
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Ok, so I took the panel off and inspected everything I could. Everything seemed fine to me but that's not saying much.
I'm confident enough to say that whatever this is, is coming out of the ozone port. Now whether or not it's the ozonator itself, I don't know. I'm placing a call to my dealer to send a tech out. I'm tired of this and I need a professional to see it in person.
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Chad, it must be in the atmosphere! I noticed a few back as well. I do NOT have ozone, so that is not a possibility for me. And maybe I am just paranoid, but it seems to me that when I look at my jets from certain angles, there is a brown cast to them. But if I look straight down, I don't see brown. Scrubbing makes no difference. I did not use metal gon with my first (only) fill. The only thing I can put a finger on is my bromine was down for a couple of days when dispenser was empty. It is fine now and shocked with MPS. I will be inspecting for sure now looking for more. Is this a Jacuzzi issue?
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On one of my posts, I got an e-mail from a rep from Caldera, telling me they have a hotline for any water care issues. That would be my first call....to Jacuzzi. Maybe it is something they have seen before and solved. Who knows? Maybe Nat2 reacts with their acrylic or oxone strangely and you need to switch to frog or something. OK, so I haven't a clue what the heck I'm talking about, but I would try Jacuzzi.......it can't only be happening to you. :-X
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Chad, it must be in the atmosphere! I noticed a few back as well. I do NOT have ozone, so that is not a possibility for me. And maybe I am just paranoid, but it seems to me that when I look at my jets from certain angles, there is a brown cast to them. But if I look straight down, I don't see brown. Scrubbing makes no difference. I did not use metal gon with my first (only) fill. The only thing I can put a finger on is my bromine was down for a couple of days when dispenser was empty. It is fine now and shocked with MPS. I will be inspecting for sure now looking for more. Is this a Jacuzzi issue?
That's too bad. I feel your pain. I'd love to see some pictures of yours for comparison.
It's suppose to get into the 40s today, so I'm thinking about doing a refill. My water turns 3 months old today. This would be the shortest fill I've ever dumped but I think it's the best way to rule out some things. I'm gonna rub all the spots off, shock with an extremely high dose of dichlor, dump, clean shell by hand with highly chlorinated water, chemically clean filters, disconnect ozonator, fill tub, add a bottle of Metal Gon, and not installing a Nature2. If I do all this and the spots return, it has to be the heater or some other component on the spa. In which my dealer will have to come out and diagnose.
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So what happened Chad?
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So what happened Chad?
Cyn, take a look at my new thread. I think I may have found the problem.
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Chad,
A new development for me. When I put bromine in my cartridge inside the filter, I found brown flakes. So I will be calling dealer tomorrow. Metal?
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Chad,
A new development for me. When I put bromine in my cartridge inside the filter, I found brown flakes. So I will be calling dealer tomorrow. Metal?
Huh? You are not suppose to use N2 with Bromine. Here's the Quote from the Nature2 mfg..."Important
The Nature2 Spa Purifier is not to be used with products containing bromine, sodium bromide or biguanides. If these products are being used, be sure to drain and refill spa with fresh water."
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Chad,
A new development for me. When I put bromine in my cartridge inside the filter, I found brown flakes. So I will be calling dealer tomorrow. Metal?
What's the word?
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Chad,
Went to dealer today. He has no idea. He is going to send pictures to Jacuzzi. I would be interested in sending some of yours as well. I am going to attempt to post pictures here. I drained today and used fast gloss on shell. There were a ton more spots that I just didnt see with water in tub. I put metalgon in water with refill. We will see what happens. Do these look like your spots?
Cathy(http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b91/WhiteSquirrel/th_christmas2007137.jpg) (http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b91/WhiteSquirrel/christmas2007137.jpg)
(http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b91/WhiteSquirrel/th_christmas2007126.jpg) (http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b91/WhiteSquirrel/christmas2007126.jpg)
(http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b91/WhiteSquirrel/th_christmas2007107.jpg) (http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b91/WhiteSquirrel/christmas2007107.jpg)
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one more picture.(http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b91/WhiteSquirrel/th_christmas2007111.jpg) (http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b91/WhiteSquirrel/christmas2007111.jpg)
Can you see that there is a brownish cast to the jet?
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Pictures 1 and 2 in your first post look very similar to what I had. You're more than welcome to send them my pics.
Out of curiosity, were your spots more abundant in any specific areas?
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one more picture.(http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b91/WhiteSquirrel/th_christmas2007111.jpg) (http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b91/WhiteSquirrel/christmas2007111.jpg)
Can you see that there is a brownish cast to the jet?
Sorry, but I can't tell from that picture
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Chad:
I couldn't locate your other thread. Did you ever find out what casued the brown dots??
Tony
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Chad:
I couldn't locate your other thread. Did you ever find out what casued the brown dots??
Tony
I had my water tested for minerals/metals and it had moderately high levels of both iron and copper. When water is aerated by the air blower or air injectors and has a significant level of iron present, some type of oxidation occurs that releases the iron from within the water leaving deposits on the spa surface. I'm assuming this was my problem as ever since I refilled and used Metal Gon, I haven't had any spots.
My first two fills I uesd Metal Gon - no spots
My next two fills I didn't use Metal Gon - spots
This fill I used Metal Gon - no spots
I guess that's what they mean by "putting 2 and 2 together" ::)