Hot Tub Forum
Original => Hot Tub Forum => Topic started by: searchinginfl on January 13, 2008, 09:32:13 am
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I finally got my alk & ph up to the right levels, now my water is cloudy. I have a Caldera Niagra. Ozone, spa frog, dichlor/mps regimen. What will uncloud my water? All my levels seem to be OK, but I have cloudy water with foam when the jets are on.
Any tips? I am a 2-3x/week user.
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How old is your water? The foam could be from your bathing suits. Make sure you do not wash them with detergent. There will always be some left in them no matter how good your rince cycle is.
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My water is about 5-6 weeks old. I'm not so worried about the foam, I've had a little foam for the past few weeks. But I haven't been in since Wednesday, and just opened the lid to cloudy water. I shocked on Wednesday as well.
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Check your chlorine level, if it is in range, just wait and give it time to work. If its low, add enough to bring the level to 2-4ppm 20 minutes after adding. Cloudy water takes time to clear. You could also try adding a small amount of clarifier and then run your tub on low speed for about two hours and then rinse your filter
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my chlorine is reading about 4-5ppm, but 20 minutes later, no free chlorine. Should I add more?
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Add more. For some reason you have bacteria in there clouding the water. :'( It is rapidly using up the chlorine you are adding. Until you can get a reading 20 to 30 minutes after adding, there will be chlorine demand.
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I would give it a shock dose...10 ppm free chlorine....then filter.
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Do they make a spa frog to use with dichlor? I'm confused about the Spa Frog. Didn't someone just post about Caldera going to the spa frog/bromine system?
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I think you can use frog with chlorine or bromine.
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Yep, you're right Dan. I looked it up and apparently there is a mineral cartridge that goes inside of the filters..you use that with chlorine and they also call it a frog. for some reason I thought the frog only refered to the bromine/mineral combo. sorry
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Searching....i am in a hurry right now. Water clarity tends to be your filter
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I shocked enough and it is clear today. I put a ton of dichlor in, it smells like chlorine, but today, of course, it doesn't register on a test strip, even though it smells. I guess my cya is high? Time to use bleach?
Also, based on advice from my local pool store, I added 1/2 pound of alk increaser (he told me to add at least a pound because it was so low, so was my ph). Now, both are reading a little high. How do I lower them both (alk & ph) the bad advice guy said it will come down on its own. Could that be why my water was cloudy?
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I cleaned my filter yesterday morning when I saw the cloudiness, it wasn't that dirty, but it took 24 hours to clear up. I wish I knew what caused it so it won't happen again!
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searchinginfl,
At some point in time your chlorine level must have dropped enough to allow some type of "nastie" to multiply and turn your water cloudy. pH levels could have also been the culprit because chlorine works best in the 7 to 7.8 range. The fact that your water smells like chlorine means that there is a high level of Combined Chlorine (CC) present in your tub. If you have a taylor test kit test your water for CC, you will probably find that you need to shock your water again to get rid of the CC. Chlorine in the proper range has no smell at all.
I would definitely not use bleach to shock your tub, just use MPS or dichlor. Bleach will drive your pH levels crazy.
You want to keep your ALK. in the 80 to 150 range as that will act as a buffer for your pH levels and not allow wild pH changes. Keep your pH in the 7.2 to 7.8 range. You can add dry acid to decrease the pH and ALK levels if they are too high
Don't worry it gets easier with time
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searchinginfl,
I would definitely not use bleach to shock your tub, just use MPS or dichlor. Bleach will drive your pH levels crazy.
I notice bleach comes up fairly often on the forum.
One note of interest: Most acrylic in the industry is supplied by a company called Aristech - Aristech specifically cautions against bleach use.
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How much chlorine did you add? Do you think that you added so much that it's bleaching out your test strips? If you added enough to do this, you could certainly be getting a smell from it, even without combined chlorine. CYA levels can lower the effectiveness of chlorine, but should not prevent it from registering on a test strip. Are you using test strips that test for FC, CC and CYA? Ditto what Canada said about the low ph, this could have been preventing your sanitizer from doing it's job. Good advice about not shocking with bleach as well. Your PH would go way up. MPS is designed specifically for lowering your CC levels and should do a good job of it. How long do you run your ozone? I have an ozonator on my spa and never have problems with CC.
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My ozone runs 24/7. My chlorine yesterday, after adding and adding finally registered about 5ppm, as well as my free chlorine after 30 minutes. This morning, even though I had a chlorine smell, I showed total chlorine at about .5 or lower, and 0 free chlorine. I never register chlorine on test strips though!
I did not measure how much I added, but it was probably about 1/4 cup of dichlor granules total. Usually I add much less, I also added about 1/8 of mps, and some de-foamer.
Another forum always advises the use of bleach, which is why I brought it up. I am very hesitant about it, and now I see why.
I have 3 different kinds of strips. The one I have been using the most measure total chlorine, free chlorine, total alkalinity (mine is high now, in the 180 range), ph (mine seems to be about 8) and hardness (mine is very low).
Another strip measures ph, free chlorine, total alk and stabilizer (what is that?), another measures mps, ph and alk. Which should I use?
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Stabilizer is another name for CYA
You may want to get yourself a Taylor test kit they seem to be far more accurate then strips IMO You can order one from Doc, he frequents this site and provides lots of free advise on parts and covers http://www.rhtubs.com If you want to stick with strips use ones that measure free and total chlorine, pH and alkalinity
I normally shock my tub when my CC reaches about .5 which is about where yours is at. It sounds like your pH and ALK are a little on the high side, you may want to lower them with dry acid (pH down) You said earlier that your tub is about 350 gallons that should equal about 2 tablespoons of pH down to lower your pH and alkalinity. Then wait for a bout 2 hours and then shock with 6 or 7 tablespoons of MPS 9non chlorine shock)
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Is cc Total or free chlorine?
I just tested again w/ the strip that measures stabilizer.
PH seems to be about 7, free chlorine has no color at all, so it is either 0 or .5 alk is about 120 and stabilizer is 30-50. I know I need to get a taylor kit. I will take my water to pinch a penny for accurate testing tomorrow, and hopefully pick on up there. Is there a particular one to ask for, or are all taylor test kits the same?
If I register no chlorine, why is the smell so strong?
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searchinginfl'
CC stands for combined chlorine and its the stuff that is causing the smell, chlorine in the proper range has no smell to it at all. Combined Chlorine is the measure of all the oxidized organics and left over chlorine by-products that cause the smell. When you smell chlorine it means that there is not enough and not that there is too much. Your pH and Alk seem to be in line now. Stabilizer at your level is nothing to worry about, when it gets to be 250 and over its time to change your water. CYA at high levels can reduce your chlorine's ability to work right.
Most folks here use the Taylor K-2005 test kit it measures Free/Total and combined chlorine, pH, Alk, CYA plus other tests for acid demand and comes with a great book to help you decipher all of the info. If you want to save a couple of dollars the Troubleshooter kit measures all Chlorine plus pH and Alk, its a nice kit that should cost about $15 US, the 2005 kit is about $50 US
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Total Chlorine (TC) = Free Chlorine (FC) + Combined Chlorine (CC) You want CC to be zero if possible as it is chlorine in the form that is useless for sanitizing (I believe it is actually FC that is spent) and it is CC that causes the chlorine smell. Shocking with dichlor or MPS will eliminate the CC.
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Total Chlorine (TC) = Free Chlorine (FC) + Combined Chlorine (CC) You want CC to be zero if possible as it is chlorine in the form that is useless for sanitizing (I believe it is actually FC that is spent) and it is CC that causes the chlorine smell. Shocking with dichlor or MPS will eliminate the CC.
It's TC- FC = CC
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searchinginfl,
What you are smelling is the CC. With chlorine disappearing that quickly you have something, bacteria IMO, eating up the chlorine and producing a lot of CC. Shock with MPS and the smell should go away.
The whole bleach thing is somewhat misleading. Yes, you can use bleach but you have to get your stabilizer to 20 to 30 PPM before you use it. The ONLY advantage to using bleach is the ability for chlorine to easily kill the hot tub itch bacteria in the tub. Using dichlor all the time will get the stabilizer in the tub to 100 PPM pretty quickly - 1 month. Dichlor adds 0.9 PPM stabilizer for every 1 PPM it adds of chlorine. As stabilizer creaps up the ability of chlorine to kill this bacteria becomes less and less. The good news is even at 300 PPM stabilizer chlorine kills most of the bacteria that lives in the tub. I think that bleach adds 3 PPM per oz per 100 gallons ... I forget.
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It's TC- FC = CC
Chad,
It's the same equation! ::)
If TC=FC+CC then TC-FC=CC, I think it's the distributive law of addition.
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Vinny,
Where have you been? :-? I had to answer a couple of water chemistry questions :-X and I thought that was your job around here ;)
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Yep, you're right Dan. I looked it up and apparently there is a mineral cartridge that goes inside of the filters..you use that with chlorine and they also call it a frog. for some reason I thought the frog only refered to the bromine/mineral combo. sorry
I used the Frog with chlorine for a couple of years until Sundance put out the SunPurity cartridge by Nature2 and used that for a couple of years. Both gave pretty much the same results. The Frog cartridge is the same for bromine and chlorine. In the past couple of years, King Technologies has marketed the Frog more toward bromine most likely to separate it from N2. You can use your inline Frog without bromine and just add chlorine or you can use the filter style cartridge for either bromine or chlorine.
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Vinny,
Where have you been? :-? I had to answer a couple of water chemistry questions :-X and I thought that was your job around here ;)
You did such a great job that I didn't have to respond!
I can retire now ...
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I can't believe I graduated a good college with a 4.0 and still don't really get it!!!! Usually I catch on pretty quick. First, I read the post that said it smells because I don't have enough chlorine. So, after soaking tonight, I added dichlor. Then, about 45 minutes later I read to shock with mps, so I did that too! Am I going overboard?
I also still have foam when the jets are on. The foam dissipates as soon as they are turned off, but a film remains for about 10 minutes. It may be just foam residue, but I can see it because the light is shining up. Isn't there also some type of "sponge" that eats up the bad stuff?
Uh Oh...I am feeling itchy as I type. Hopefully it is just the power of suggestion (or dry skin).
You guys are trying so hard to help me, and I can't believe how much of an idiot I am on this! Part of it is the differing advice I have gotten. The boards say dichlor after each soak, shock weekly w/mps. My salesperson tells me the opposite. The local pool store tells me not to use chlorine at all and just use mps (I know that is wrong). Some boards advise to use bleach.
I have a 500 gallon tub (I think). I have been rotating between dichlor and mps, but really just throwing it in by capfuls. Nobody has given amounts until this thread. Can I get a "water chemistry for dummies" run down?
How much dichlor granules should be added after each soak. How much mps should be used? How often? I'm not sure I would have bought this if I knew that a small mistake can cause me or my kids to "catch" something. Keep in mind, I keep the tub at 97-98 degrees, I have 24 hour ozone and filter and a frog.
Somehow, I got through High School and College without taking Chemistry (or maybe I don't remember, I was a major pothead in high school). Between this and my 10 year old in gifted program, I am starting to feel dumb.....(19 years in advertising may do that as well).
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Go here http://www.rhtubs.com/bbs/FAQ.htm and click on Dichlor Dosing Vermonter Style. Read it, re-read it, and then read it once a day for the next week. Follow his style and you won't have any more issues. And get a Taylor dpd test kit so you can actually test for CC and get more accurate readings! Things will get a lot easier...
While you're there, read this too http://www.rhtubs.com/chlorine.htm#Introduction
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Go here http://www.rhtubs.com/bbs/FAQ.htm and click on Dichlor Dosing Vermonter Style. Read it, re-read it, and then read it once a day for the next week. Follow his style and you won't have any more issues. And get a Taylor dpd test kit so you can actually test for CC and get more accurate readings! Things will get a lot easier...
While you're there, read this too http://www.rhtubs.com/chlorine.htm#Introduction
The Vermonter Method is the way to go...it will require you to monitor your chlorine levels pretty closely for a while, but eventually you will have a routine that works for your usage and tub size. Even if you change your usage pattern at some point, you will know how to change your chemical routine to keep the water clean, clear and safe. When you started posting with your problems, it wasn't clear if you had been using this system and had gotten off track or had major usage changes. That is why some of the info seemed to be conflicting. Posters made assumptions about what you already knew from Chemistry 101!! Good luck! ;)
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Don't feel bad. You are not an idiot. Once you get the hang of it, you will laugh at your earlier difficulties. I am far from an expert, only offering advice from my experience. The shimmer on your water is probably from body oils, lotions, etc. Throw a scumball in there and it will eagerly soak it up. Regularly rinsing your filter will help with this also. It is confusing that there are so many conflicting opinions out there. I actually had someone at a pool/supply store tell me that I don't need anything to test for cya because I won't have that in my hot tub since I'm using dichlor. Ummm, hello! Having kids in the tub, probably doesn't make water care any easier. Using a liquid test kit could help you out, sometimes they are easier for people than strips. I get the same reading with both. Don't forget, since you are using mps, you will get a false cc reading as mps will register as cc. If your water is superchlorinated, it is going to smell like sanitizer. No way around that. Ever added bleach to a load of laundry or a scrub bucket? If your test strips are getting bleached out, then your skin probably is really dry and itchy. I agree that the vermonter method is a great starting point. At this point, you might want to refill and start from scratch.
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Tinybubbles: A false CC reading because you use MPS? That is news to me...for how long after adding the MPS?
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Hi Cyn, I assume for as long as there is MPS in the water. Taylor does sell a deox reagent that will overcome the interference when using dpd tests.
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Hi Cyn, I assume for as long as there is MPS in the water.
TB--I had no idea...thanks!!
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If there is mps present in your spa water it registers as CC when using the Taylor chlorine test. That's actually one of the ways to measure for mps.
Here is a link. Scroll all the way down the page.
http://www.taylortechnologies.com/products_instructions.asp?Type=Number&Number=5807
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searchinginfl,
I'll give you a really easy to follow "Hot Tub Care" routine or the Canadian Method ;D, actually I can't take credit for it, someone on this board posted it for me when we were first starting out. Its really easy and revolves around a pattern and the day of the week.
Thursday............shock tub with MPS (read your bottle for amount for your size of tub)
Saturday............rinse out your filter with a garden hose (easy cause you live in Florida not Canada)
Sunday..............test water and make adjustments (just once per week, don't micromanage your water)
Add 1 teaspoon of dichlor per bather every time after you use your tub
Add 1 teaspoon of dichlor if you haven't used your tub for 2 days (you may have to add 2 if your have a big tub)
Change your filter once a month and clean with filter cleaner ( good idea to have a back up set)
Drain your water every 3 months and wipe down the inside of the shell
That's pretty much it in a nutshell and you should have very little problems. No you are not an idiot and believe me it gets a lot easier with time.
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I love you. That was what I was looking for!
Another question......Assuming my water is fine (I didn't make it to get it tested today but I will tomorrow) I am going away from Thursday until Tuesday. I had planned on hosing off my filter Thursday morning before I go and just throwing in a ton of dichlor and mps, lowering temp to 85 and hope for the best. Any better suggestions????
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I love you.
Well, I think your sound really nice and all that but I don't know if I want to use the "L" word yet ;)
You seem to be on the right track now. Follow any advise that your dealer gives you about pH and Alk adjustments. Then raise your chlorine level to about 5 or 6ppm and you should be good for the weekend. When you come back give the tub a good shock with MPS, wait and hour and add a teaspoon of dichlor and you should be good to go
Have a nice trip
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Thanks so much for all of your help, and making it simple for me! I'll tell Mickey Mouse you said hi! (Obviously, I'm going to Disney!)
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Hi folks. This seemed like the right thread to post this question in.
I'm having a major (major) foam problem. Whenever I turn on the jets, I'm getting a HUGE foam mountain (it's like a bubble bath).
This started after two things happened:
1. I had a party where about 15-20 people went in over the course of the night.
2. After said party, before I went in again, I washed my filters with detergent and bleach which is exactly what the instruction book said to do.
I think the combination of oils on people's skin may have had something to do with it, but from what I'm reading in this thread, the filters may actually be causing it.
I put in some of that Shock last night, hoping it would kill the foam, but it did not.
When I put in the test strip this morning, the Chlorine levels were very low. So were PH and Alkalinity. I was about to put in some Chlorine and some Spa Up, but then I realized that the granules I've been using are Bromine (not Chlorine). Now I'm worired that I shouldn't mix all those chemicals and maybe I should just start over.
My questions:
1. What generally causes this much foam?
2. Is it bad to mix Chlorine and Bromine? Right now...my levels of both are VERY low, and I'm wondering if I can switch back to Chlorine without causing problems.
3. Can this water be saved, or should I just start over?
4. For those folks with removable filters, what do you wash them in?
5. Even after I drain it, won't the filters still be soapy (if that's the problem?) What's the best way to "un-soap" them?
Whew...that's a lot of questions.
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Wow Josh, that is alot. Do you use chlorine or bromine as your sanitizer normally? If you usually use chlorine, but accidently added bromine, you now have a bromine spa. Any chlorine put in the spa now will be converted to bromine. Normally, you would not want to mix the two. You can't switch that without draining. What causes foam? With that many people in the spa, I would assume the detergent left in their suits, shorts, undergarments, or whatever they were wearing. Next, you have body lotions, hair products, etc. If you washed your filters with detergent that could be a huge contributor. That stuff just doesn't like to rinse out with cold water. I usually run mine through a rinse cycle in the dishwasher. I didn't once, and like you, I had bubbles galore. You can try scooping out as many of the bubbles/foam as possible. It's really cold right now, so I can understand not wanting to drain and refill. If it was warm, I would do it. You mentioned shocking, did you use MPS to shock? If so, I would try to raise your bromine levels to kill any germs or viruses that could be in the water after such a heavy bather load. Did you atleast have fun at the party?
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With this tub, I had planned to use chlorine, but I started using my bromine granuals by mistake. It was only today that I realized I'd been putting in a scoop of bromine after each hot tub instead of a scoop of chlorine. I had two left from my old tub and the stupid bottles looked the same.
SO....right now, it's a bromine tub...and I have not added any chlorine to the water yet. If I drain it now, I'd start with Chlorine and stay there....leaving the bromine in storage for the future or something.
I'm fairly sure that it's the detergent in the filters that caused this much foam (it literally looks like a bubble bath in there at times, the foam can reach 12 inches in height around the corners. There was no foam at all at any time during the party, it didn't start until after I cleaned those filters the next day.
I'm not sure what the Shock I used was called, but it said shock on the bottle and was supposed to kill suntain oils, etc, etc. I used a little more than the recommended 2oz, left the cover off, ran the jets to mix it in, left the cover off for an hour, then let it mix all night....but there was still foam this morning.
I think I may have to drain it, and I'll try that rinse in the dishwasher like you mentioned.
P.S. And yes, the party was awesome. ;D
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I brought my water in for computerized testing today. Even though I added dichlor last night, there was 0 chlorine reading. Free, combined....nothing. The test did not measure cya. All my other readings were good.
I was going to buy the taylor test kit, but I wasn't sure which to get. One was $20, one was $60. I think the only difference was the big one measured CYA. Pinch a penny is only a mile away. Am I better off just bringing in a sample weekly?
So, do I keep on adding chlorine until I get readings the next day, or just dose as recommended? It seems as though a lot of people don't get any readings the next day if using a frog and ozone. Is this correct?
Josh, I was reading my instruction book before, and it basically said if foam reducer doesn't work, you need to drain. I have had foam, but it seems to be almost gone now after shocking and using foam remover.
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I brought my water in for computerized testing today. Even though I added dichlor last night, there was 0 chlorine reading. Free, combined....nothing. The test did not measure cya. All my other readings were good.
I was going to buy the taylor test kit, but I wasn't sure which to get. One was $20, one was $60. I think the only difference was the big one measured CYA. Pinch a penny is only a mile away. Am I better off just bringing in a sample weekly?
So, do I keep on adding chlorine until I get readings the next day, or just dose as recommended? It seems as though a lot of people don't get any readings the next day if using a frog and ozone. Is this correct?
Josh, I was reading my instruction book before, and it basically said if foam reducer doesn't work, you need to drain. I have had foam, but it seems to be almost gone now after shocking and using foam remover.
Get the $60 Taylor kit. I have the K2005.
Just dose as recommended. Make sure you hold 2-3 ppm free chlorine for twenty to thirty minutes after adding. Chlorine acts very quickly so it will sanitize in a very short time. To get a free chorine level to last to the next morning you would need to achieve a higher FC level after soaking. I generally don't have get a reading the next day...no frog/N2 and no ozone.
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searchinginfl--One of the last things I understood about water chemistry: after dosing with dichlor, you measure your FC levels 20 minutes later to judge the 3ppm amount that will do the normal santitizing. The higher you dose, measuring way over 3ppms at 20 minutes, the longer the FC will register. Part of the reason it is last on the list of chemical knowledge is that most people on the forum are so used to this little bit of knowledge that they forget novices have no idea that FC does its job and dissipates as it is doing its job. If at 20 minutes, you have 0 FC, then the FC might have run out before all the nasties were killed.
As far as the Taylor kit...I love that everyone says don't micro-manage things and yet they all have the big kit. Yes, I am sure they are glad they have it when they encounter problems, but you can certainly take in a sample when that happens. You want to read FC, TC (and then you have the CC reading by taking TC-FC) and pH and TC (total alkalinity).
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I'm not familiar with pinchapenny, but it sounds like a discount store. If you've been using dichlor for 5-6 weeks and they didn't register any cya, I'd question their test results. Are these pool/spa experts or retail sales clerks? Do you have the test kit model numbers? It's hard to judge just by pricing. I do have a taylor catalog, so I can look them up if you like. As far as FC readings, I get a reading of around 3 30 minutes after adding. The next day, depending on how I test, there is little to no residual. Test strips show zero, liquid testing shows .5.
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I brought my water in for computerized testing today. Even though I added dichlor last night, there was 0 chlorine reading. Free, combined....nothing. The test did not measure cya. All my other readings were good.
I was going to buy the taylor test kit, but I wasn't sure which to get. One was $20, one was $60. I think the only difference was the big one measured CYA. Pinch a penny is only a mile away. Am I better off just bringing in a sample weekly?
So, do I keep on adding chlorine until I get readings the next day, or just dose as recommended? It seems as though a lot of people don't get any readings the next day if using a frog and ozone. Is this correct?
searchinginfl,
It's completely normal to have 0 free chlorine 12 to 16 hours after adding, that's the beauty of the Vermonters method. When you do go to use your tub your not getting into a tub of chemical soup. With your zero total and combined chlorine levels I bet that the smell you originally complained about is now gone(yeah!)
You can probably get away with the smaller Taylor kit and have your dealer test for calcium and CYA about once a month or so and that will save you a couple of dollars.
I bet you are also beginning to feel better about all this water care stuff now :)
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Almost NEVER trust a dealer's testing system!
Some will be good but I believe the majority will not be. Think about the problems owners have with this and then walk into some store where the person you're asking doesn't know squat about what their selling. How much experience does a 17 YO have in testing and understanding water chemisty? How often and when was that analyzer calibrated and if it neededadjustment, was it tested after the adjustment?
All the conflicting info that people receive - why? No reason for that. Most of us who use chlorine follow what the Taylor book says with one deviation - we dose after we soak. Most of us seem to have good luck with our tubs. I also own a pool and have good luck with it as well. Do we have problems at times - I know I do but with the understanding of the water chemistry (along with the help of my on-line friends) I am able to get it under control
Using a kit - it's not the idea of micromanaging the water but they are accurate. When testing for PH and chlorine/bromine it's only 5 drops and we see a color. Usually we can tell between 1,3,5 PPM chlorine and we usually can see the difference between 7.2 and 8 PH. I personally think knowing the approximate value of what we are testing is good enough. Is it imperitive that we have a PH of 7.4 vs 7.2 or 7.6 - no.
When testing for Alkalinity or Calcium we add x number of drops and we get a reading. That last drop represents a value of 10 or 25, depending on dilution, and the reading can be off by that amount. Again not a big deal.
When testing for CYA it is a subjective test and it is fairly inaccurate.
It seems that strips have come a long way but it also seems that people have more problems with strips than with test kits.
Learn water chemistry for the times you need help and can spot the BS.
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I completely agree with Vinny. It is best to be your own chemist and to do this you need a good professional kit.
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Josh, I was reading my instruction book before, and it basically said if foam reducer doesn't work, you need to drain. I have had foam, but it seems to be almost gone now after shocking and using foam remover.
I gave it a few more days to work. Haven't added bromine (or chlorine) since then, but I did wash the filters with no soap....just to see if it would help.
I still have some foam (not as bad as it was, but still considerable). I'll drain this weekend.
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So last night I went out there and my tub was completely clear again. It took 24 hours after I washed those filters but it was nice.
Now...my only remaining question:
Until last week, I was adding Bromine. I haven't added in a few days and the test strip says levels are very low. Can I switch to Chlorine now, or do I have to drain everything first?
Or...is there any harm in using Bromine until I drain again? My salesperson recommended Chlorine to me...so that's what I bought.
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You cannot change to a chlorine system until you drain. There is no harm in using bromine till then.
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Are there any other chemicals that react poorly with Bromine? Spa Shock or any of that stuff?
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You can use chlorine in a bromine tub but it will stay a bromine tub. Bromine will convert chlorine to bromine. I would use up the bromine until you're ready to drain and refill. If you run out of bromine use the chlorine. The only other thing I know is not compatible is Nature 2. You can use the Spa Frog but not Nature 2.
FWIW, Relying on chemicals to do the job that you can do manually is a bad idea. You need to figure out why the tub is cloudy - is it bacteria (my tub last weekend) or is it gunk in the water. If it's gunk you need get it to foam up and remove as much as you can manually. It works wonders!!! Buy a pool skimmer and skim it off as it foams, keep skimming it until there is very little left then shock with non chlorine shock.
Using foam down or whatever just puts the gunk back into the water for the next time. Clarifiers if used too much will foam as well.
Take it from someone who was the king of foam - scoop and shock works all the time.
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Ok...that actually helps a lot. I'll finish out the bromine this way (use it up, then drain the thing). I'm glad to know it won't damage the tub.
Regarding using chemicals to take care of cloudy water, in my case, the water wasn't cloudy at all. I only picked this thread to post in because it was about chemicals and I figured people could answer my question about the foam problem I was having.
Turns out my foam was being caused not by chemicals, or body oils, it was all just laundry detergent that my washer didn't rinse out. I found that out thanks to the advice in this thread.
Once I washed my filters in the dishwasher (they were full of soap from the washing machine)...all my foam was gone in 24 hours. Now my big concern was whether to switch away from Bromine....but I'll just stick with it for this tub full of water and switch on the next one.
Thanks again everyone! Temperatures will be freezing again this evening, so I'll be back out there tonight. ;D
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I'm back from Disney!!!! Mickey and Minnie say hi! After 5 days of walking around Disneyworld, I am ready for a good soak! I REALLY dosed up with dichlor, and a little mps before leaving. I came back to perfectly clear water! Yippee!
I raised the heat and added dichlor again last night, and I'm ready to soak! Thanks for all your help!
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OK, now my water looks great and doesn't smell, but I figured I should test before getting in. My Total Chlorine and Free Chlorine are really high, and I don't want to get in. It will go down on its own, won't it?
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Yes, it will go down on its own, just give it time. Should be OK by tomorrow. If its at 5ppm or lower go ahead and jump in it won't cause any harm
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I went in yesterday with both kids (2 & 10 year old boys) Both boys even put their head under (can't stop them). I haven't added dichlor since Tuesday night, but I added mps after yesterday's fun. I went in this morning (Friday) alone (first time soaking alone in the AM....a cool beautiful morning in Florida...it was lovely). I was just about to add dichlor, but decided to test again. I am still reading between 3 & 5 ppm free chlorine. Shouldn't I need to add dichlor by now? Should I just throw in some mps?
My water looks great. Just as I was getting out, I noticed a dead lizard stuck to the intake. I don't have a net, and figured I'd run out to buy one today and get it out. I just looked and it is gone! Can't find it. Probably in my filter area, but that just shows how well the filter/skimmer works. That lizard looked pretty stuck there, and I was only gone 1/2 hour to shower.
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I haven't added dichlor since Tuesday night, but I added mps after yesterday's fun. I went in this morning (Friday) alone (first time soaking alone in the AM....a cool beautiful morning in Florida...it was lovely). I was just about to add dichlor, but decided to test again. I am still reading between 3 & 5 ppm free chlorine.
The mps you added yesterday is registering as chlorine on your test strips/kit. Always test your chlorine levels before adding mps. If you haven't added any dichlor since Tuesday, I would do so.
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My water is now testing high on total chlorine (over 10), but around 3 ppm free chlorine. Is this normal?
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My water is now testing high on total chlorine (over 10), but around 3 ppm free chlorine. Is this normal?
Wow, that would mean your CC is 7ppm! I doubt it's really that high. I'm assuming you've still been adding mps regularly?? Like I said before, mps will register as chlorine. So to get accurate readings for chlorine, make sure you haven't added any mps for a few days. What I would do is stop adding mps for awhile and then give your tub a 10 ppm dose of dichlor. Let that 10 ppm dose get down fairly low(about 1 ppm). Then test all your chlorine levels and go from there.
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nope, I stopped adding mps after your last post. Then added it last night after the whole family was in for 2 hours and we were still registering the 7ppm chlorine.
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nope, I stopped adding mps after your last post. Then added it last night after the whole family was in for 2 hours and we were still registering the 7ppm chlorine.
Last night did you test your chlorine levels before or after adding the mps?
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Cloudy water can be very frustrating. And the signs can be confusing...for example, smelling chlorine might make you think there's lots in the spa. What you're actually smelling though is the used up chlorine (chloramines). And each of the four chemistry steps rely on a balancing of the step(s) before it in order to keep your levels from fluctuating all over the place. For example, a pH reading of only 7.8 is high enough to immediately use up about 80% of your chlorine immediately as you introduce it to the water!
To walk through all of your water chemistry questions at once with a qualified water chemistry person, please do call us at Watkins Mfg. (makers of your Caldera spa). Our toll- free number is 800-669-1881. One of our customer service reps at extension 8432 will be glad to assist. We're located in San Diego, California, so call us between 7am-5pm(PST). We'll be glad to help.
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Last night did you test your chlorine levels before or after adding the mps?
before
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Cloudy water can be very frustrating. And the signs can be confusing...for example, smelling chlorine might make you think there's lots in the spa. What you're actually smelling though is the used up chlorine (chloramines). And each of the four chemistry steps rely on a balancing of the step(s) before it in order to keep your levels from fluctuating all over the place. For example, a pH reading of only 7.8 is high enough to immediately use up about 80% of your chlorine immediately as you introduce it to the water!
To walk through all of your water chemistry questions at once with a qualified water chemistry person, please do call us at Watkins Mfg. (makers of your Caldera spa). Our toll- free number is 800-669-1881. One of our customer service reps at extension 8432 will be glad to assist. We're located in San Diego, California, so call us between 7am-5pm(PST). We'll be glad to help.
Thanks! Great customer service! My water is clear now, and I think I'm getting the hang of it, but you may be getting a call soon!
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searchinginfl,
That's way to much chlorine. You should probably not have to add any for a week. One question, how old is your water? A good idea may be to dump and refill and start over again. Remember, water is the cheapest chemical you can put in your tub
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I'm going on 2 months now.....I'll test again tomorrow, and if it seems out of whack I may start all over.
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I'm going on 2 months now.....I'll test again tomorrow, and if it seems out of whack I may start all over.
Chas, one of the nice guy dealers on this site has a "rule or law" and that is that most new tub owners should dump their water after one month of ownership. The basis for the rule is that most new owners will micromanage their water and add a ton of chemicals in the attempt to have drinking water in their spa. Given the number of issues you have had in the last couple of weeks it may be a good idea. Do you know what your TDS (total dissolved solids) reading is at?
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Not a clue. I have 4 different strips, none measure that. I am avoiding the taylor kit so I won't micromanage. I only had a cloudy issue for a day, otherwise my water has been beautiful, and if I stopped testing every day, sometimes 2x a day, it probably would be all fine!
I've been out of work on disability, so I guess I need to micromanage something! (Besides my kids)
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Take a water sample to your dealer and ask them test the TDS. IF the level is high say in the 1500 range then yes its time to change the water. You really don't have to test the water that often, I test mine once a week.
Sometimes kids can use a little micromanaging ;) sorry to hear your of work, hope it gets better
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If I do decide to drain......will the chlorine in my water kill my grass?
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Cloudy water can be very frustrating. And the signs can be confusing...for example, smelling chlorine might make you think there's lots in the spa. What you're actually smelling though is the used up chlorine (chloramines). And each of the four chemistry steps rely on a balancing of the step(s) before it in order to keep your levels from fluctuating all over the place. For example, a pH reading of only 7.8 is high enough to immediately use up about 80% of your chlorine immediately as you introduce it to the water!
To walk through all of your water chemistry questions at once with a qualified water chemistry person, please do call us at Watkins Mfg. (makers of your Caldera spa). Our toll- free number is 800-669-1881. One of our customer service reps at extension 8432 will be glad to assist. We're located in San Diego, California, so call us between 7am-5pm(PST). We'll be glad to help.
I don't think I have heard this information. If your PH is 7.8 it will immediately use up 80% of chlorine when it's added? My ph has been high and my chlorine seems to be disappearing. Now I am wondering if this is the cause. Anyone have more to add to this?
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http://www.rhtubs.com/bbs/FAQ.htm gives a pretty good description of why you should keep pH below 7.5 but above 7.2. Something about chlorine existing in two forms in the tub and the most efficent form dominates below a pH of 7.5. Above 7.5 the less effecient form dominates.
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I just got out of a beautifully clear tub with absolutely no smell. Before getting in, it read 0 chlorine on 2 strips. All other levels seemed good. Seems a waste to drain and refill! I think I'll hang in there until another problem comes up or I hit the 3 month mark. I just added dichlor after soaking. We'll see how long it lasts!
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I don't think I have heard this information. If your PH is 7.8 it will immediately use up 80% of chlorine when it's added? My ph has been high and my chlorine seems to be disappearing. Now I am wondering if this is the cause. Anyone have more to add to this?
This isn't true. With PH at 7.5 chlorine is a 50/50 mix of sanitizing ions and oxidizing ions (I'm too lazy to find and use their official name) as PH decreases from 7.5 the sanitizing ions become more; when PH increases from 7.5 the oxidizing ions become more.
The point is to use enough chlorine to do the job.
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(I'm too lazy to find and use their official name)
Hypochlorous and hydrochlorous acid, hypo is the good one
My God!! all that water treatment training just came in handy ;D
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This isn't true. With PH at 7.5 chlorine is a 50/50 mix of sanitizing ions and oxidizing ions (I'm too lazy to find and use their official name) as PH decreases from 7.5 the sanitizing ions become more; when PH increases from 7.5 the oxidizing ions become more.
The point is to use enough chlorine to do the job.
Thanks. That was a helpful, easy to understand explanation.
In Canada, water treatment training, huh....you asked for it!
There is alot of hype on another forum about using bleach instead of dichlor. I tried it. My ph went through the roof and doesn't want to come down. In addition, I can not maintain a chlorine residual using bleach. To make sure it wasn't a water issue, I used dichlor and no problem, still had a residual the next day. Care to weigh in on this? Anyone else?
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Tinybubbles,
Sodium hypochlorite (bleach) has a pH of around 12, dichlor has a neutral pH around 7. When you add a couple of ounces of bleach directly to you tub you completely oxidize the small pocket that you just poured the bleach in. It would be best (although not recommended) to dilute in a bucket first. Basically as you were pouring in the bleach it was being used up right at the spot you were pouring in. The only way to maintain any kind of residual would be to have a constant feed system and a inline residual analyzer. Way to much money though.
We use sodium hypo at work to control the zebra mussels in our intake and you would not believe the problems associated with the system. Calcium build up within the feed line that have to be flushed with hydrochloric acid every year, Injection points always clogging due to the pH change from 12 to 6.8 in the carrier water. Containment areas that are attacked by a small but constant drip or two. Oxidization of any metal parts in the storage room let alone what the stuff does to the pumps that feed it.
I am no fan of bleach and agree with others on this forum that you should not use it in your hot tub. In fact most manufacturers will void a warranty if it can be proved that customer use bleach in their tub.
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I'll weigh in on this as well. I'm not quite sure of what happens when you add bleach in one spot vs broadcasting it over the entire surface but I do use bleach in my pool without too many problems. The standard rule for adjusting alkalinity down is to add an acid in one spot of the water and it will eat the alkalinity up without affecting the PH too much - I don't know if this is also true whith a high PH product as well. Using bleach is OK as long as you really know water chemistry.
The most knowlegable person on this subject is a person called Chemgeek - he is to Chemistry what Vermonter is to Microbiology - a HUGE wealth of information! There's a whole subculture about using bleach that was started a long time ago on a different pool forum, I have my own ideas about some of the people who post on this subject that I won't share but I do trust what Chemgeek says.
As was explained to me by him on a pool forum, PH is a logrimithic measurement and if I remember correctly the jump of 1 number is 100 times more not 1 times more acidic or alkaline. You need at least a measurement of stabilizer of 20 PPM and your alkalinity needs to be fairly close to the correct range for PH not to swing. The process of chlorine doing it's job is an acidic process which is why our PH tends to drop.
Aeration of water also tends to bring the PH down along with alkalinity. Adding bleach will temporarily raise your PH but should be offset by the acidic process of the chlorine being used up. I believe the dose is about 1/2 oz for 100 gallons will raise the chlorine level 3 PPM.
Questions are: how much bleach did you use; what was your alkalinity; how old was the bleach and is it possible that something was in the tub that ate the chlorine up quickly. If the bleach was old and bleach loses potency fast, you may have been adding high PH liquid salt.
The bleach people swear by using bleach and I can see where using it can be useful but dichlor's only problem is the addition of stabilizer and as it builds chlorine becomes less effective. I personally am not using bleach at this point as there really is not a reason for it IMO. When you get out of the tub who wants to fiddle with oz vs teaspoons - teaspoons are much easier.
Chemgeek can probably answer what happened better than I but I wanted to give you an overview and possible reasons of what happened.
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Very well said Vinny, you put thoughts to words far better then I do. I am more of a point form kind of person. However I will make a small correction, aeration to water will raise your pH. I experience this all the time since my tub does not have diverter valve and the air is on all the time. My pH will raise and my Alkalinity will drop due to the aeration
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Very well said Vinny, you put thoughts to words far better then I do.
Thanks!
You really are lucky I don't like to type - once I get going I can't shut up! ;D :-X
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Thanks to both of you for your help. I think I am going to have to plant myself in the "against bleach" camp. Vinny, I have been talking to chemgeek quite a bit about the bleach issue. He seems to be a die hard fan, but he uses it in his pool, not his spa and I think there is a big difference between the two. Book knowledge is one thing, but real life application can be completely different. I've done alot of searching online and I can't find anything to support the use of bleach in a spa. In my own experience, I ended up with cloudy, smelly water after a month. I have to believe it's from having no FC residual in the water the majority of the time.
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Woo Hoo! I just bought the Taylor kit! Now, I have to study and learn to use it. I had them do a water analysis while at the store:
Total Chlorine: 3ppm (I added this morning)
Free Chlorine: 3ppm
Combined Chlorine: 0ppm
ph: 7.8
Acid demand: 1
Total alkalinity: 100 ppm
stabilizer: 100 ppm
TDS: 1,000
My water looks beautiful. Besides adding some ph down, does everything else look good? Should I still drain? Water is 2 months old today, I am a 2-3x/week user.
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There's no need to adjust your pH. She'll come down on her own.
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searchinginfl, I'd leave the PH alone.
tinybubbles, I had a lot of experience in the water care area when I bought my spa. I had a pool for 4 years then and I used a combo of bleach, trichlor and cal hypo with cal hypo being my mainstay. The first year I owned my pool I used exclusivly trichlor - WOW, this is easy! But with it came the CYA of 100 and problems with algea. Then I found the original pool forum that touted bleach - very informative and the crux of it was to save money by using home products - bleach, borax and baking soda. It really does work in a pool. I personally find going to the store to buy bleach a PITA and cal hypo is cheap when you find a sale and I always look for a sale and buy 50 lbs at a time. But cal hypo adds calcium which can cause problems if it gets too high.
Anyway, I get my spa and low and behold all my waterr knowlege goes south as I couldn't keep my water more than a month even though my pool is sparkling clean. I had to lean spa water care and found it to be a little different than pool water care.
The bleach people want you specifically use bleach. I have had arguments with them (not chemgeek) about how "bad" dichlor is to use in a tub vs bleach. I do get straight answers from chemgeek because he does know it inside out but not from others. I have posted on a couple pool forums about things and if chemgeek doesn't answer the question then I get a bunch of "blah. blah blah" - when I reseach it further and ask where they got the info - silence.
The truth is that dichlor does build up CYA as you use it - 0.9 PPM per PPM chlorine and if you dose exclusively with dichlor in a month you will be at 100 PPM or so. The truth is that as the CYA builds up chlorine becomes less effective against all bacteria. The truth is that there are warnings about being in water with CYA over 100 but most spa people do and I suspect a lot of pool people do as well! So this is the scary side of dichlor - which some bleach people will tout.
Here's some more truths as well. Most municipalities use chlorine to kill stuff in their water - so you ingest it and bathe in it. Most bacteria has a very little tolerance towards chlorine - it's the 3rd best santizer out there - ozone and flourine are better. Most bacteria is still being killed at 300 PPM CYA (3 months). The one bacteria that isn't is Hot tub itch bacteria - chlorine becomes ineffient at 50 PPM CYA. Dichlor doesn't lose potency as bleach does and since it's crystals, easier to dispense. One big important truth - we are supposed to dose with chlorine before we use the tub not after.
The only reason I can see to use bleach is to keep your CYA down in case you introduced the hot tub itch bacteria into your tub. If you have only 20 PPM CYA then every time you dose with chlorine the ability of it to kill almost every nasty in the water is there. As far as expense (the original reason for using bleach) how expensive is it to use dichlor? You can get 5 lbs of dichlor for $30 and it'll last you 8 months to a year. Honestly if you don't use the frog or N2 - it really is a cheap and effective way to run a tub.
The one question I have for you is how did chemgeek explain your lack of chlorine and the high PH in the tub?
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searchinginfl, I'd leave the PH alone.
tinybubbles, I had a lot of experience in the water care area when I bought my spa. I had a pool for 4 years then and I used a combo of bleach, trichlor and cal hypo with cal hypo being my mainstay. The first year I owned my pool I used exclusivly trichlor - WOW, this is easy! But with it came the CYA of 100 and problems with algea. Then I found the original pool forum that touted bleach - very informative and the crux of it was to save money by using home products - bleach, borax and baking soda. It really does work in a pool. I personally find going to the store to buy bleach a PITA and cal hypo is cheap when you find a sale and I always look for a sale and buy 50 lbs at a time. But cal hypo adds calcium which can cause problems if it gets too high.
Anyway, I get my spa and low and behold all my waterr knowlege goes south as I couldn't keep my water more than a month even though my pool is sparkling clean. I had to lean spa water care and found it to be a little different than pool water care.
The bleach people want you specifically use bleach. I have had arguments with them (not chemgeek) about how "bad" dichlor is to use in a tub vs bleach. I do get straight answers from chemgeek because he does know it inside out but not from others. I have posted on a couple pool forums about things and if chemgeek doesn't answer the question then I get a bunch of "blah. blah blah" - when I reseach it further and ask where they got the info - silence.
The truth is that dichlor does build up CYA as you use it - 0.9 PPM per PPM chlorine and if you dose exclusively with dichlor in a month you will be at 100 PPM or so. The truth is that as the CYA builds up chlorine becomes less effective against all bacteria. The truth is that there are warnings about being in water with CYA over 100 but most spa people do and I suspect a lot of pool people do as well! So this is the scary side of dichlor - which some bleach people will tout.
Here's some more truths as well. Most municipalities use chlorine to kill stuff in their water - so you ingest it and bathe in it. Most bacteria has a very little tolerance towards chlorine - it's the 3rd best santizer out there - ozone and flourine are better. Most bacteria is still being killed at 300 PPM CYA (3 months). The one bacteria that isn't is Hot tub itch bacteria - chlorine becomes ineffient at 50 PPM CYA. Dichlor doesn't lose potency as bleach does and since it's crystals, easier to dispense. One big important truth - we are supposed to dose with chlorine before we use the tub not after.
The only reason I can see to use bleach is to keep your CYA down in case you introduced the hot tub itch bacteria into your tub. If you have only 20 PPM CYA then every time you dose with chlorine the ability of it to kill almost every nasty in the water is there. As far as expense (the original reason for using bleach) how expensive is it to use dichlor? You can get 5 lbs of dichlor for $30 and it'll last you 8 months to a year. Honestly if you don't use the frog or N2 - it really is a cheap and effective way to run a tub.
The one question I have for you is how did chemgeek explain your lack of chlorine and the high PH in the tub?
I use a combination of 12% liquid chlorine and trichlor in my pool. I have toyed with bleach in the spa in the past, mostly as a shock. Since my last water change in early December, I have used dichlor for about two and a half weeks until my CYA levels reachd 50 ppm and have been dosing with bleach since then. My water stays fresh and lasts as long as it does with dichlor. I am in my spa almost every day so the longest it might go without adding chlorine is two days. I haven't experienced any cloudy water to this point. I don't generally retain any chlorine residual the next day with either bleach or dichlor. I shock with MPS and am not currently using ozone or a mineral cartridge. My pH tends to rise with bleach and I need to add one tablespoon of dry acid once every two weeks. With dichlor my pH would tend to drop over time and I would have to add one tablespoon of baking soda once every two weeks. Maintaining pH seems to be about the same for me, just opposite ends of the scale. I use small containers of bleach for the spa so it is easy to handle. So far it seems to be working well, but I would expect that since I have done this in the pool for a couple of years.
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I was waiting for you to chime in!
I know in the past that you have used bleach or 12% chlorine in the spa so now you are doing it more often.
Have you tried to shock with bleach since you are using it as chlorine? I would imagine the PH of MPS is off setting the PH of the bleach somewhat.
Since I have no experience with bleach in the spa (and my spa is still under warranty) I have nothing to go by.
Do you pre measure or do you just dump a bunch of bleach in?
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I was waiting for you to chime in!
I know in the past that you have used bleach or 12% chlorine in the spa so now you are doing it more often.
Have you tried to shock with bleach since you are using it as chlorine? I would imagine the PH of MPS is off setting the PH of the bleach somewhat.
Since I have no experience with bleach in the spa (and my spa is still under warranty) I have nothing to go by.
Do you pre measure or do you just dump a bunch of bleach in?
I use a small detergent cup that has a measurement line at four oz. I definitely don't obsess as far as being exact with chlorine. Four oz of 6% bleach gets me over 3ppm. I haven't shocked with bleach since using it to sanitize...just the MPS which I like a lot. I use a non buffered MPS and add once per week so it must be offsetting the high pH of the bleach somewhat. I am not as worried about adding too much chlorine while using bleach as I am using dichlor. With dichlor I always try to use as little as possible so I because of CYA. With bleach I feel more comfortable being a little more heavy handed.
I like the 24 oz Clorox bottles for the spa. I naturally use the gallons for the pool.
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Chemgeek insists that my ph is high because of my ozonator. Everything I read says that that bleach will raise the ph of water when it's added, period. I had the same ozonator when I used dichlor and my ph was never raised. He seems to believe there are some forces at work eating up the bleach or else I'm not adding enough. I know that neither of these is the case. When I switched back to dichlor I added 1tsp. and my fc shot up and I had no problem retaining a residual. When using bleach I always added enough to get a good FC reading 15 minutes later, but it just would not hang around. I even raised it up to around 20 ppm, and several hours later, nothing. I have read everything I can get my hands on and it all points to the same conclusion, bleach is not a good match for hot tubs. It's rapidly degraded in high temperatures, especially when you reach the 104 degree mark. I also found out that trace metals like copper rapidly break down bleach. I have a N2 in my spa, so I don't believe you should use bleach if you have a mineral cartridge. Everyone has to do their own thing, but I am just not comfortable with no FC residual in my spa. I've been using dichlor again for one week and I have had no problem maintaining a residual, so I know there is nothing causing an increased sanitizer demand. I've read articles that echo what In Cadada says about the bleach only oxidizing the water directly where it's added. I might be looking in the wrong places but I can't find anything to support the use of household bleach in a spa. I haven't found anyone that has used it long term in a spa. Maybe someone on this forum has. I want to maintain healthy water the easiest way possible. I tried bleach thinking it might be the anwer. For me, it only added problems. I don't care how cheap it is, it's not worth the headache. If someone had asked me a month into it's use, I would have said it was working great. I wasn't concerned with no residual. When I opened the cover to find smelly, nasty water, I changed my opinion. So far I haven't found anyone that has tried bleach that is able to maintain a FC residual. I guess the real question is if a residual is needed.
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Chemgeek insists that my ph is high because of my ozonator. Everything I read says that that bleach will raise the ph of water when it's added, period. I had the same ozonator when I used dichlor and my ph was never raised. He seems to believe there are some forces at work eating up the bleach or else I'm not adding enough. I know that neither of these is the case. When I switched back to dichlor I added 1tsp. and my fc shot up and I had no problem retaining a residual. When using bleach I always added enough to get a good FC reading 15 minutes later, but it just would not hang around. I even raised it up to around 20 ppm, and several hours later, nothing. I have read everything I can get my hands on and it all points to the same conclusion, bleach is not a good match for hot tubs. It's rapidly degraded in high temperatures, especially when you reach the 104 degree mark. I also found out that trace metals like copper rapidly break down bleach. I have a N2 in my spa, so I don't believe you should use bleach if you have a mineral cartridge. Everyone has to do their own thing, but I am just not comfortable with no FC residual in my spa. I've been using dichlor again for one week and I have had no problem maintaining a residual, so I know there is nothing causing an increased sanitizer demand. I've read articles that echo what In Cadada says about the bleach only oxidizing the water directly where it's added. I might be looking in the wrong places but I can't find anything to support the use of household bleach in a spa. I haven't found anyone that has used it long term in a spa. Maybe someone on this forum has. I want to maintain healthy water the easiest way possible. I tried bleach thinking it might be the anwer. For me, it only added problems. I don't care how cheap it is, it's not worth the headache. If someone had asked me a month into it's use, I would have said it was working great. I wasn't concerned with no residual. When I opened the cover to find smelly, nasty water, I changed my opinion. So far I haven't found anyone that has tried bleach that is able to maintain a FC residual. I guess the real question is if a residual is needed.
The answer to that question is yes and no.
Theroretically we should soak in water that has bromine or chlorine in it. This is to protect ourselves from bacteria while we soak. By adding chlorine after we soak we are soaking in very little chlorine which could cause further drying out of our skin. Soaking a few hours after the residue is gone is OK for most of us , so this is the no part.
The yes part is the fact that at hot tub temp waters bacteria double at a rate of once every 20 minutes. If you started out with 1 bacteria, 20 min it's 2, 40 min it's 4, 60 it's 8 ... in 24 hours - that's a lot of buggers. The initial dose of chlorine kills any bacteria that is either in your tub before you soak and any that came of your body. If you have some chlorine in the water 8, 12, 16 hours later the possibility of bacteria taking hold is extremely low. Remember that most bacteria need a contact time of less than 1 to be killed by chlorine, the exception is the hot tub itch bacteria which needs about 50. Contact time = PPM chlorine x time in minutes. Even with a CYA reading of 300 the bacteria is still being killed.
As far as the ozonator making your PH high - this is a first to me. Everything I ever read said ozone is a PH neutral product. Did chemgeek give a whole scientific answer to this? If yes, can you point me to the post as I am interested in seeing what he said.
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As far as the ozonator making your PH high - this is a first to me. Everything I ever read said ozone is a PH neutral product.
Bubbles and Vinny,
While ozone gas is pH neutral I can see some logic in this. It's not so much about the ozone as it is about the way it is injected into the tub. The mazzei (sp) injector draws air into itself and injects it into the tub. The constant injection of air can rob the water of carbon dioxide and that will raise the pH.
As for the chlorine residual stuff. I am a firm believer in not allowing your tub to ever have a zero residual. While I do follow the Vermonters method I also always try to maintain a small residual in the tub, As Vinny said bacteria grows at an exponential rate and 24 hours with zero residual can be a disaster.
Ivie,
I'm sorry but I think we stole your thread about cloudy water ;)
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Something is not adding up. Your chlorine residual should be the same no matter what fast dissolving product you use and all other things being equal. Different chlorines all have side effects but the end result is the same. I am experimenting with bleach, not because of the price, but because of the rapid rise in CYA. My CYA ran up to 50 ppm in just over two weeks. I have always used dichlor but want to see how this differs as my water ages. I am at the normal half life of my water and so far all is well. I do notice my water smells really fresh but that is probably because there is no acid being added to the water daily.
Again, I am used to liquid chlorine in my pool so I am not nervous about it in my spa. I find the pH of my pool will rise with just liquid chlorine, but holds steady with a combination of trichlor and the liquid. I try to maintain a low free chlorine level with trichlor pucks in a chlorinator and suppliment with liquid about twice a week. My free chlorine level drops slowly over the three days in between thus I can hold a free chlorine level. Bleach definitely raises the pH in my spa but less so than I would have expected and not a whole lot more than dichlor dropping the pH.
I find no difference in free chlorine residual with dichlor or with bleach in my spa. When I used to shock with chlorine, I tried bleach until I made the switch to MPS. I would raise the free chlorine level to 10 ppm and 24 hours later I would still have a free chlorine level of 3-5 ppm. Dichlor...bleach....made no difference. For me, though, it meant I missed a morning soak so I ultimately switched to MPS.
I do not advocate the use of bleach. It interests me. If I find it works, I will continue...otherwise I will go back to dichlor or experiment with something else. Being a pool owner I am acutely aware of CYA. A pool is so much easier to maintain than a spa...not because of the water temp, IMO, but because of the small volume of water. I do believe that you should add chlorine daily even though I do not on days I don't soak, but even a half dose would be prudent.
I can't say I blame you for going back to dichlor. You should use what you are comfortable with. The key is to have a simple, safe routine that works for you and the way you use your spa.
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Bubbles and Vinny,
While ozone gas is pH neutral I can see some logic in this. It's not so much about the ozone as it is about the way it is injected into the tub. The mazzei (sp) injector draws air into itself and injects it into the tub. The constant injection of air can rob the water of carbon dioxide and that will raise the pH.
As for the chlorine residual stuff. I am a firm believer in not allowing your tub to ever have a zero residual. While I do follow the Vermonters method I also always try to maintain a small residual in the tub, As Vinny said bacteria grows at an exponential rate and 24 hours with zero residual can be a disaster.
Ivie,
I'm sorry but I think we stole your thread about cloudy water ;)
You didn't steal my thread, I am reading everything trying to soak it in. I still feel very stupid when it comes to this. I bought the taylor kit, but haven't had the time to figure it out yet (probably because I'm too busy reading this)
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Bubbles and Vinny,
While ozone gas is pH neutral I can see some logic in this. It's not so much about the ozone as it is about the way it is injected into the tub. The mazzei (sp) injector draws air into itself and injects it into the tub. The constant injection of air can rob the water of carbon dioxide and that will raise the pH.
As for the chlorine residual stuff. I am a firm believer in not allowing your tub to ever have a zero residual. While I do follow the Vermonters method I also always try to maintain a small residual in the tub, As Vinny said bacteria grows at an exponential rate and 24 hours with zero residual can be a disaster.
Ivie,
I'm sorry but I think we stole your thread about cloudy water ;)
I understand your explanation but this would hold true for people using dichlor as well. But based on what was explained to me by chemgeek the action of chlorine being used up in an acidic reaction. Using dichlor in a tub tends to have the PH turn downwards and this makes sense in what chemgeek says. If air raises the PH and acid is trying to lower PH then the net result would be either 0 or a slow slide either way (whichever had a more pronounced PH).
I guess bleach is another experiment that I need to try! I'll do that right after I change the ozonator in my tub. I'll keep big tabs on the PH if and when I try this.
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Using dichlor in a tub tends to have the PH turn downwards and this makes sense in what chemgeek says. If air raises the PH and acid is trying to lower PH then the net result would be either 0 or a slow slide either way (whichever had a more pronounced PH).
Vinny,
I know common wisdom on chlorine and pH, is that dichlor will drive your pH down but, this is not what I see in our tub. Our tub, a Bullfrog has no diverter valve to shut down the air injection it always has a 50/50 air to water mix. This is the only thing I see as a major difference between our tub and other folks with the exception off some Jaccuzzi tubs I think. In our tub I always have to raise the alkalinity and lower the pH. I adjust everything to alk 120 and pH 7.2 and then 5 or 6 days later the pH is 7.8 and the alk is below 100. The only explanation I have been able to get for this reverse phenomenon is that the air injection in causing it by stripping the water of carbon dioxide.
I know its backwards from what is normal but my wife always tells me I'm backwards anyway. I do not have any problems with our pool water, it behaves normal, alk and pH rise and fall together, it's just backwards in our tub.
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Vinny,
I know common wisdom on chlorine and pH, is that dichlor will drive your pH down but, this is not what I see in our tub. Our tub, a Bullfrog has no diverter valve to shut down the air injection it always has a 50/50 air to water mix. This is the only thing I see as a major difference between our tub and other folks with the exception off some Jaccuzzi tubs I think. In our tub I always have to raise the alkalinity and lower the pH. I adjust everything to alk 120 and pH 7.2 and then 5 or 6 days later the pH is 7.8 and the alk is below 100. The only explanation I have been able to get for this reverse phenomenon is that the air injection in causing it by stripping the water of carbon dioxide.
I know its backwards from what is normal but my wife always tells me I'm backwards anyway. I do not have any problems with our pool water, it behaves normal, alk and pH rise and fall together, it's just backwards in our tub.
I keep my TA at the lower end of normal at 80 and my pH will drift down using dichlor. If my TA is higher, my pH will want to rise. This is how my tap water reacts. Other's source water may react in a different way.
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I switched to bleach for the exact same reason. I was very worried about cya levels. That will happen if you are a regular on the other board. At first, logic told me "don't try it, there must be a reason that sodium hypochlorite is not marketed for hot tubs." I'm such a curious person that I HAD to try it. If it would work, it seemed perfect. A clean spa and very low levels of CYA. I honestly can't tell you why I can't get a FC residual 24 hours after using bleach, even when shocking. Chemgeek wants to say it's something in my water, but that doesn't make sense because the following day I can add dichlor and achieve the results expected. The reason I believe that the residual isn't that same for bleach and dichlor is that bleach is unstable and I believe it degrades quickly in spa water. Perhaps there are factors in my spa that cause it to do so even more rapidly, N2, ozonator, etc. I don't know. I've been doing alot of research that tells me it's not the correct match for spas. It's difficult to discuss with chemgeek because he doesn't own a spa. Tony, it will be very interesting to follow your experiences since you are actually using the product in a spa. Keep me updated. Did you mention that you are dosing with MPS daily as well? Maybe that's the trick to making it work. I tried to dose with MPS and then add bleach a couple minutes later, but it didn't help me maintain a residual. I'm still searching for answers. Like you, I'm not sure that dichlor is the best answer either. I'm going to give it more of a chance. I only stopped using it because of my curiousity about bleach, I wasn't having any problems.
About the PH. Chemgeek says I must run my ozonator longer than most people and that the aeration drives up my PH. I run my ozonator twice a day for 6 hours. I think there alot of people that run theirs 24 hours a day, so that's confusing to me. I really can't say much on the subject until I refill and use strictly dichlor.
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The mazzi injector runs 24/7 so that wouldn't be the case ... we all (those of us with circ pumps and ozonators) are running the bubbles 24/7 even if you unplug the ozonator.
My observations from here make me believe that water isn't the same all over. People report this and that but honestly my tub doesn't act like other people's tub. I don't get a lot of time between dosing, I really need to dose every other day. I really see no benefit from N2 or frog where others do. I will try another ozonator this year only because I want to see if a higher output ozonator does anything - so far the answer is mine doesn't add much. I sometimes have residue 24 hours after a normal about 3 PPM dose - others say they don't have residue in 8 hours.
Now onto bleach. Tony obviously is having success with bleach. He is also using MPS which has a PH of 3. Maybe his water's composition lets him be successful where you're not. Chlorine should be chlorine and once mixed into the water should be the same. Tinybubbles, you are 100% correct IMO that it is not something eating the chlorine if you can add dichlor the next day and get a residue. N2 and ozone shouldn't matter. Of course it is possible that the bleach is old and not potent enough and this would be the only answer for that at this point. Or you added so much that it bleached out the reading. Have you tested the bleach in a glass of water? If you're interested, I would put a few drops of bleach in a glass of water and see if you ge a reading.
Honestly, I was taking chemgeek's word on the fact it can be used in the spa. I too use bleach in my pool so I am familiar with it. After seeing In Canada's response and reading that PH is driven up by the air bubbles - I don't know what to say. I personally don't measure alkalinity as my spa's PH and alkalinity seem to rise together. As I said, I find my spa to be somewhat different in water chemistry than my pool. I use baking soda in my spa to raise both PH and alkalinity ... in my pool only alkalinity gets increased.
Since bleach didn't work I wouldn't worry too much about the CYA level. If it really concerns you you can switch to bromine or a baqua product. Or you can do a partial water change at 1 1/2 months in good weather.
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My spa is an odd bird, so to speak, and the circulation pump doesn't run 24/7, it only runs during filtration cycles. So I only have bubbles 12 hours a day at this point. Artesian changed this in response to people's spa running too warm during the summer months.
I had the same thoughts about the bleach and bought a new bottle, same results. It's not bleaching out because I can get a reading initially.
My current interest is in MPS. I think that with daily use of MPS, I can significantly reduce the amount of dichlor used. Hopefully this will help my CYA levels stay as low as possible. So far, I've found that by adding a small amount of MPS after soaking, it reduces the amount of dichlor needed. I'm getting double the FC reading with MPS than I was getting without. Does that make sense to anyone? I'm assuming the MPS is doing such a great job of oxidizing that's there is basically nothing for the dichlor to do. As a result, very little is needed.
I totally agree that there are water chemistry basics and ALOT of variants. Water differences from place to place and I'm sure each of us introduce something different into the water when we soak.
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What are you using to measure chlorine?
If it's a Taylor kit only the total chlorine reading will get messed up by the MPS. If it is a Taylor then your readings should be correct.
Be careful about the MPS - it is not a sanitizer. Some people have good luck using MPS mostly and dichlor for shock. It won't add CYA but will add to your TDS quickly.
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I switched to bleach for the exact same reason. I was very worried about cya levels. That will happen if you are a regular on the other board. At first, logic told me "don't try it, there must be a reason that sodium hypochlorite is not marketed for hot tubs." I'm such a curious person that I HAD to try it. If it would work, it seemed perfect. A clean spa and very low levels of CYA. I honestly can't tell you why I can't get a FC residual 24 hours after using bleach, even when shocking. Chemgeek wants to say it's something in my water, but that doesn't make sense because the following day I can add dichlor and achieve the results expected. The reason I believe that the residual isn't that same for bleach and dichlor is that bleach is unstable and I believe it degrades quickly in spa water. Perhaps there are factors in my spa that cause it to do so even more rapidly, N2, ozonator, etc. I don't know. I've been doing alot of research that tells me it's not the correct match for spas. It's difficult to discuss with chemgeek because he doesn't own a spa. Tony, it will be very interesting to follow your experiences since you are actually using the product in a spa. Keep me updated. Did you mention that you are dosing with MPS daily as well? Maybe that's the trick to making it work. I tried to dose with MPS and then add bleach a couple minutes later, but it didn't help me maintain a residual. I'm still searching for answers. Like you, I'm not sure that dichlor is the best answer either. I'm going to give it more of a chance. I only stopped using it because of my curiousity about bleach, I wasn't having any problems.
About the PH. Chemgeek says I must run my ozonator longer than most people and that the aeration drives up my PH. I run my ozonator twice a day for 6 hours. I think there alot of people that run theirs 24 hours a day, so that's confusing to me. I really can't say much on the subject until I refill and use strictly dichlor.
I've used dichlor for years with great results and no issues, even with very high CYA levels. There was a time when I dosed and shocked with dichlor...CYA levels through the roof. I have always used chlorine in my spa (and pool) along with a Frog, N2, ozone in all combinations. To shock, I have in the past, used dichlor, bleach and/or MPS. I currently dose with chlorine after use and shock with MPS once per week. I do not use the mineral cartridge or ozone at this time nor do I add MPS daily. I believe my system works for me because I use my spa almost every day therefore I add chlorine on a very regular basis. I can skip a day without issue but not more than that. When I used ozone and a mineral cartridge, I could go more days between soaks without adding chlorine. Because that is not how I normally use my spa, I do not feel I personally get value from these items. I never had any luck with ozone and N2 with a pre soak dose of MPS and weekly shock of chlorine as some do. I would get cloudy water in a day with that routine.
To sum up, tiny, I wouldn't worry too much about using dichlor. It is time tested and very easy to use. Just be aware that as your water ages, you need a little higher free chlorine level to get the same level of sanitation. In a pool, high CYA is more an issue because it is difficult to lower. In a spa, you automatically eliminate the problem every three or four months.
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My current interest is in MPS. I think that with daily use of MPS, I can significantly reduce the amount of dichlor used. Hopefully this will help my CYA levels stay as low as possible. So far, I've found that by adding a small amount of MPS after soaking, it reduces the amount of dichlor needed. I'm getting double the FC reading with MPS than I was getting without. Does that make sense to anyone? I'm assuming the MPS is doing such a great job of oxidizing that's there is basically nothing for the dichlor to do. As a result, very little is needed.
TB, what the mps is doing, is preventing amonia and other organics from forming with the chlorine in the water. Thus preventing the formation of chloramines. This allows the chlorine to work more efficiently as a sanitizer and is why your FC residuals are lasting longer. It's only doing one job- sanitizing. Mps will help eliminate chloramines as well but it's much more effective at preventing them in the first place.
This was all taught to me by your buddy Chemgeek. Btw, he also says that if you have ozone, you really shouldn't have to add mps. They both do pretty much the same thing and having both present is a little overkill, IHO. I guess it probably depends on the output of your ozone too and how often it runs. Mine is a lower output one but it runs 24/7 and very rarely have I registered any CC. But then again, being pretty much the only bather in my tub and showering before almost all my soaks, there's not that much being introduced to my water besides a little sweat.
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Thanks for all the input. I planned on dosing the heck out of my spa last night with ph down. I'm tired of the ph being so high. I tested before adding the ph down and couldn't believe my eyes. The ph was 7.6. I'm assuming it's a combo of not adding bleach and the MPS, although I've added very little MPS.
I've never needed to shock with MPS because my ozonator has always controlled my CC's. I did it originally because I read that's the thing to do. Then I learned to test for CC and shock when you needed to. Since learning that, I've only added MPS after we've had friends in the spa. Now I've decided to experiment and see if it's useful as a daily supplement to dichlor. I'm definately not going to use it without a FC residual. My hunch is that we are adding more organics than actual bacteria or viruses as the norm. I do dose with dichlor before a soak when we are going to have friends in the spa.
It's good to hear that someone is using dichlor efficiently, even with high CYA levels. I'll keep an eye on the CYA levels and adjust my FC residual accordingly.
BTW, taylor has a deox reagent that you can use to eliminate the interference from MPS and Zodiac sells test strips for MPS.