Hot Tub Forum
Original => Hot Tub Forum => Topic started by: IlliniFan on November 24, 2007, 08:53:36 am
-
please help me sort out this rash! My husband is nearly always in the spa with me except for Thursday morning. The water was very slightly cloudy. I soaked in it for about 40 min, shocked it and added bright and clear. Hubby and I were in it again on Thursday night. While it was dark, the water appeared clear in the lights. On Friday, I wore a new red sweater and new jeans. Friday night, I noticed a rash (red raised spots) around my mid section only. Hubby has no rash. So is the the tub or the sweater? Would it have taken 24 hours to show up if it were the tub? Can I use it again w rash? Should I really SHOCK it now? I use reserve and renew. Help! Please give me your thoughts.
-
Sounds to me like the tub. I'll give you word for word the sheet we hand our customers:
==================================================
Psuedomonas:
The word Psuedomonas is used loosely to describe both bacteria and the rash it can cause when it infects a spa or hot tube. Its proper name is Psuedomonas Aeruginosa dn is commonly found in soil, water and on plants.
This bacteria does not compete very well with other common bacteria. The spa's higher temperature kills off its competitors, leaving Psuedomonas alone to multiply very rapidly. It feeds on proteins, oils, ammonia and nitrogen.
The rash that is associated with the bacteria is know as Psuedomonas Folliculitis. It is an inflammation of the hair follicles , and usually occurs within 8 to 48 hours after exposure. It will appear as red bumps or postules with white heads that do not pop.
The rash is usually, but not always, located between the shoulders and the waist (in the trunk of the body). It is not unusual for one person to get it and another who was in the spa to not get it. It seems that the wider the opening of the skin pores the more likely one is to get the rash.
Within 3 to 7 days after exposure the rash normally goes away on its own without treatment. A regular skin lotion can be used to help the itching which can accompany the rash.
Spa disinfection techniques:
1. Drain the spa completely
2. Clean the surface with an alkaline surface cleaner
3. Remove and clean the spa filter(s)
4. If time permits, allow spa to dry completely
5. Refill spa (use a new hose or allow water to run for a few minutes before filling spa.
6. Balance the spa water
7. Shock the spa with a double dose of Chlorine Concentrate
8. Maintain a higher than normal sanitizer level for 1 week.
NOTE: This treatment plan was developed by Dr. Donald Ahearn, Professor of Microbiology at Georgia State University
====================================================
There you go. What I've found is that this critter tends to pop up after 1 fo 2 main things happens - either a fresh fill after the tub has set empty for a while and stuff can grow in the lines OR if your sanitizer level dropped for a period of time (I'm guessing the latter since you noted the water was slightly cloudy). Either way, once Psuedomonas gets a foot hold you have to drain and refill.
I've actually seen many cases where a large number of people use a tub and only one of them breaks out with the rash and other cases where only one of them doesn't.
Good luck with the treatment!
-
It would be really hard to say what caused the rash but I (personally) would not soak in the tub if it looked even slightly cloudy. My husband jumped in once (I know he never even looked) and after he got out, he noticed that the tub looked cloudy...I gave him the third degree..he showered right away and nothing happened.
There was an article on TV recenty about the large amount of chemicals in new material. Maybe you had a reaction to the new clothes. Especially since the rash seems to be where your new jeans might rub your stomach. I guess I am goofy, but I wash brand new clothes because I can't stand the smell.
Maybe put a little cortisone on the bumps and see if they go away. Hot tub rash gets ugly, so you will know for sure in a couple of days.
-
I have had the problem last month. Water was only one month old but gets used alot. I was away for the weekend and my wife did not use it either and forgot to add some dichlor like I asked her to do even if she did not use it. We went in on a Monday night before bed. The water looked fine but by Tuesday night she came down with the rash and I did not. All I did was super clorinate the tub. Still using the same water a month later and she has not come down with it again.
-
After reading the post by Tubsandcues, I am surprised that the rash would go away so easily. I know of several people who got the rash and it took several weeks of antibiotics and topical cream to clear it up. My cousin had deep purple bumps that she claimed were very sore. My friends got the rash from a tub at a rental and spent quite a bit for medical treatment for the whole family...guess it depends on how bad you get the rash??? :-/
-
Hey Bonni,
The key word in that part about the rash going away in 3 to 7 days is "usually."
You're right though, I've had plenty of customers who have suffered longer than one week. Some things that I've seen that extend their rashes are re-exposing themselves to the bacteria, i.e. not treating the tub properly and continually using it.
I've also heard that taking as cold of showers as you can stand while you have the rash can help. I don't know If this is true, but a few people have told me that after they took a really hot shower the bumps reappeared or got worse. Their guess was the hot water opened up their pores even more and agitated the bacteria. I don't have a clue - I'm not a doctor. All I know is that the only way to get rid of it is to drain, clean, and nuke the tub.
I also tell my customers not to use their tubs for at least a week or at least until they have no more signs of the rash.
-
please help me sort out this rash! My husband is nearly always in the spa with me except for Thursday morning. The water was very slightly cloudy. I soaked in it for about 40 min, shocked it and added bright and clear. Hubby and I were in it again on Thursday night. While it was dark, the water appeared clear in the lights. On Friday, I wore a new red sweater and new jeans. Friday night, I noticed a rash (red raised spots) around my mid section only. Hubby has no rash. So is the the tub or the sweater? Would it have taken 24 hours to show up if it were the tub? Can I use it again w rash? Should I really SHOCK it now? I use reserve and renew. Help! Please give me your thoughts.
Sounds like the spa. It is not unusual for one person to get a rash from the tub while another does not. The slightly cloudy water generally indicates not enough sanitizer for the amount of use. Have you checked your bromine levels? With the Reserve/Renew system, you add liquid bromide at start and weekly, then MPS after each use and weekly to shock. The bromide waits to be activated into the sanitizing form of bromine by the MPS so after use there is a rise in bromine level much like adding dichlor after use in a chlorine spa. Bromine levels should drop a little in between uses but should still be present. You may have to up your levels of both liquid bromide and MPS with the amount of soaking you are doing right now. I would do a normal shock and measure bromine to be sure you get a good reading...then measure bromine again before the spa is used to be sure there is a residual amount. As far as using the spa with the rash...it all depends on how bad the rash is. If it is just a few red spots, you may be able to use it...if worse, definitely not.
-
I use test strips. After I add MPS, I get very high bromine levels which I would guess would be normal. But after about 24 hours, bromine levels are nearly negligable. But I thought this was normal for this system. I am new to this and spa chemistry is still a mystery to me. Water is 1 month old.
-
I use test strips. After I add MPS, I get very high bromine levels which I would guess would be normal. But after about 24 hours, bromine levels are nearly negligable. But I thought this was normal for this system. I am new to this and spa chemistry is still a mystery to me. Water is 1 month old.
I, unlike a large amount of people on this forum, rarely recommend using MPS for your standard shock. My main reason is that MPS is only an oxidizer while a chlorine or bromine based shock oxidizes as well as boosts sanitizer levels AND kills bacteria (like Psuedomonas) all at the same time.
I'm not trying to start the debate over as to which shock is better. I know a lot of people have good luck with MPS, but I prefer the extra protection I get from a bromine or chlorine shock.
-
Can I shock with dichlor? Or bleach???
-
Can I shock with dichlor? Or bleach???
don't use bleach, but both dichlor and bromine concentrates are fine for shocking. Depending on brand, there should be directions on the back of the bottles for shock, superchlorination or super oxidation, which all mean the same basic thing.
As far as the rash, though, I'd suggest following the technique I listed above.
One of the problems with Psuedomonas is once it gets a foot hold, it can become almost immune to chlorine or bromine if it has been living with a low level of it for a period of time. The only cure is drain, refill and follow those steps listed.
-
Thanks all for the help. I will drain tub, but I don't think I am going to go back to reserve and renew. I was using it according to the directions, so I am not greatly comfortable to going back to it. I don't know what I am going to do.
-
I have a question along these lines for all the long time tub owners: Do you shock once a week even if you don't have a CC reading of .5 or greater?
-
I use test strips. After I add MPS, I get very high bromine levels which I would guess would be normal. But after about 24 hours, bromine levels are nearly negligable. But I thought this was normal for this system. I am new to this and spa chemistry is still a mystery to me. Water is 1 month old.
Your liquid bromide levels may be too low for the use of your spa. You can activate the bromine with chlorine if you like. Before MPS, chlorine was always used. Bromine tabs are mostly chlorine. Bleach will work but its pH is high and Reserve is buffered to be pH neutral unlike most bromines so you would have to watch that.
I don't agree that you necessarily have to decontaminate your spa and dump the water. If your rash is severe I would do it but if your talking about a couple of red bumps with no postules, I would just give a good shock with chlorine and bump up your bromide amount. Many times, though, new spa owners should change their water after one month's use because of heavy use and the inevitable chemical learning curve. If you decide to switch to chlorine, you have to drain and fill.
Cyn, when I used to shock with chlorine, I would do so when my CC read .2 ppm (shock level according to Taylor Technologies) or more. With non chlorine shock, I add weekly. The reason for the difference is because a chlorine shock does a better job of destroying chloramines than MPS, but MPS does a better job of preventing them.
-
I, unlike a large amount of people on this forum, rarely recommend using MPS for your standard shock. My main reason is that MPS is only an oxidizer while a chlorine or bromine based shock oxidizes as well as boosts sanitizer levels AND kills bacteria (like Psuedomonas) all at the same time.
I'm not trying to start the debate over as to which shock is better. I know a lot of people have good luck with MPS, but I prefer the extra protection I get from a bromine or chlorine shock.
This is a good point and something I think needs to be considered. We all (on dichlor) should shock the tub with dichlor every so often to get the bacteria that hasn't been killed by regular or lower doses. MPS is great at getting rid of any built up chlorimines and does wonders for getting rid of the residue of stuff that makes the water foam. MPS makes it easier to use the tub in a hurry as well but ultimately the idea is to have a bacteria free tub.
-
I don't agree that you necessarily have to decontaminate your spa and dump the water.
The reason for the difference is because a chlorine shock does a better job of destroying chloramines than MPS, but MPS does a better job of preventing them.
Hey Tony!
Just so you know, I recommend the drain and "decontaminate" the tub method for 2 reasons.
First, the guy that came up with the procedure knows a whole lot more about bacteria than I do.
Second, I've dealt with probably a couple hundred cases over the 6 years I've been in the spa industry. In my experience, the people with the best luck at not having it come back are the ones who followed those instructions. It's not 100% perfect, we've had people that have had to do it a couple of times before they stopped breaking out.
Have people been able to get rid of it with out draining? Yep. And I know both of them, but in both cases they ended up with it again a few weeks later.
I do have a question for you though regarding your statement about MPS preventing chloramines. I was wondering if you could explain that because I've never heard it explained that way.
thanks!
-
Sounds to me like the tub. I'll give you word for word the sheet we hand our customers:
==================================================
Psuedomonas:
The word Psuedomonas is used loosely to describe both bacteria and the rash it can cause when it infects a spa or hot tube. Its proper name is Psuedomonas Aeruginosa dn is commonly found in soil, water and on plants.
This bacteria does not compete very well with other common bacteria. The spa's higher temperature kills off its competitors, leaving Psuedomonas alone to multiply very rapidly. It feeds on proteins, oils, ammonia and nitrogen.
The rash that is associated with the bacteria is know as Psuedomonas Folliculitis. It is an inflammation of the hair follicles , and usually occurs within 8 to 48 hours after exposure. It will appear as red bumps or postules with white heads that do not pop.
The rash is usually, but not always, located between the shoulders and the waist (in the trunk of the body). It is not unusual for one person to get it and another who was in the spa to not get it. It seems that the wider the opening of the skin pores the more likely one is to get the rash.
Within 3 to 7 days after exposure the rash normally goes away on its own without treatment. A regular skin lotion can be used to help the itching which can accompany the rash.
Spa disinfection techniques:
1. Drain the spa completely
2. Clean the surface with an alkaline surface cleaner
3. Remove and clean the spa filter(s)
4. If time permits, allow spa to dry completely
5. Refill spa (use a new hose or allow water to run for a few minutes before filling spa.
6. Balance the spa water
7. Shock the spa with a double dose of Chlorine Concentrate
8. Maintain a higher than normal sanitizer level for 1 week.
NOTE: This treatment plan was developed by Dr. Donald Ahearn, Professor of Microbiology at Georgia State University
====================================================
There you go. What I've found is that this critter tends to pop up after 1 fo 2 main things happens - either a fresh fill after the tub has set empty for a while and stuff can grow in the lines OR if your sanitizer level dropped for a period of time (I'm guessing the latter since you noted the water was slightly cloudy). Either way, once Psuedomonas gets a foot hold you have to drain and refill.
I've actually seen many cases where a large number of people use a tub and only one of them breaks out with the rash and other cases where only one of them doesn't.
Good luck with the treatment!
I am a little confused about this.
I was originally under the impression that Psuedomonas were able to grow in a hot tub but then was told by what seemed like a knowledgeable source that it has to be introduced and even if the tub gets cloudy from so many bacteria it doesn't mean that Psuedomonas are living in it. It was explained to me that Psuedomonas usually come from going into a public spa, not washing the suit and having it introduced into your spa. I was also under the impression that it can infect anyone but again was told that the skin needs to be broken in order to get infected.
So the reason I am confused is we assume that a rash is Psuedomonas but there may not be any evidence that there is. If it is a fresh fill and Psuedomonas have not been introduced into the tub - how does it become the "hot tub rash". Also, a problem with using dichlor is that as the CYA goes up - it becomes harder to kill the Psuedomonas bacteria because the contact time is much higher than the "regular" bacteria. Once we have used dichlor for a month, we have approched 100 PPM CYA and the chlorine is almost all locked up in the CYA especially since we are only using 3 PPM ... this is why we do want to shock with higher amounts of chlorine every so often.
Draining and refilling might be an option but I would also have to say that you still need to superdisinfect the tub before draining if you think you have a Psuedomonas problem.
-
Vinny, Pseudomonas is a very typical water contaminant. I was surprised when I found out that it caused the hot tub rash because I was used to it being identified as more of a nussiance bacteria than a true pathogen. It is known to be an organism that can cause problems in burn victims and is a common hospital caused infection (the reason they don't like cut flowers in water in hospital rooms) In pharmaceutical manufacturing processes pseudomonas turns up as a contaminant in tanks, and preparation areas that are steamy and wet. I don't personally believe it evolves a resistant strain that sanitizers don't kill..rather, that it multiplies in ideal conditions so fast that the sanitizers can't stay ahead of it. They are used up before all the cells are destroyed. The organisms also form a slime type layer that can make it difficult to completely remove.
Here I found this website:http://ttp://www.textbookofbacteriology.net/pseudomonas.html
-
Thanks Boni!
Anyone want to buy a hot tub!!! After reading that - it's a nasty bugger.
-
Hey Tony!
Just so you know, I recommend the drain and "decontaminate" the tub method for 2 reasons.
First, the guy that came up with the procedure knows a whole lot more about bacteria than I do.
Second, I've dealt with probably a couple hundred cases over the 6 years I've been in the spa industry. In my experience, the people with the best luck at not having it come back are the ones who followed those instructions. It's not 100% perfect, we've had people that have had to do it a couple of times before they stopped breaking out.
Have people been able to get rid of it with out draining? Yep. And I know both of them, but in both cases they ended up with it again a few weeks later.
I do have a question for you though regarding your statement about MPS preventing chloramines. I was wondering if you could explain that because I've never heard it explained that way.
thanks!
The problem with Psuedomonas is it needs a longer contact time with a sanitizer than most bacterias so if your sanitizer level gets a little low, this particular bacteria will survive and thus can infect those who are suseptable. If left unattended, this bacteria can protect itself via a biofilm and needs a super decontamination to break the film and kill the bug. As Bonielle mentioned Pseudomonas are fairly common and in our environment and hot tubs are very Psuedomona friendly in that it can live in the hot temps where other bacterias will not. The CYA issue is also something to be considered though IlliniFan's situation involves bromine and not dichlor.
I myself have experienced a couple of bumps here and there...but it has happened when I knew I shouldn't have used the spa and did anyway...but could always clear it up without much problem. I do agree...the very safe way to go is to drain and fill and bring your sanitizer level up to a higher than normal level for a period of time if you experience a couple of non postule bumps and certainly if you get a full blown out rash.
I learned the info about non chlorine shock from the poolspa forum from either waterbear or chem geek who are a world of chemical knowlege. If you did a search over there you could find long detailed posts regarding the chemistry of all this. I had also heard about MPS and its better oxidizing capabilities years ago. I had been a chlorine shocker for years and have tried this method for a while now with pretty good results. You have to realize my kids are in their late teens and they and their friends can foul a 500 gallon tub in a couple of hours. The only thing that fixes that is heavy chlorine. Luckily this happens during the summer where I can and do throw an extra drain and fill in. I am going on five and a half years of ownership soon and have always followed Vermonters Dichlor Dosing or a slight variation of it mainly because of the testing he did in his spa and the results he kindly shared.
-
I just wanted to add that we had a similar situation with our 2.5week old Jacuzzi 470. We followed the dealer's instructions: supercholorinate (3tbs) on the first fill, then MPS (1tbs) after every use and shock with dichlor (2tbs) once a week.
Well after one week of using it at least once daily, DH and I soaked in what we later realized was a cloudy tub. This was last Sunday night (which is why we didn't realize the tub was nasty- it was dark!). Monday morning I woke up with a what looked like chicken pox all over my lower abdomen + back. It eventually spread onto my upper arms and thigh as well. :o It wasn't itchy at first but eventually became quite painful and I visited my doc. on Tuesday where he diagnosed hot tub rash. Evidently I had the classic case. :P We decided to just watch the rash and if it didn't get better within a few days I would call in for a Rx....well it's been a week (today is Sunday) and my rash is almost gone. It did blister quite a bit in some spots and on Wed. night I thought I'd been hit by a truck- started running a fever and felt flu-like symptoms- but by the time I got a hold of the doc. on Thursday, I was a LOT better and so no antibiotics or anything for me.
Anyways, I called our dealer and they suggested super-shocking(?) the tub since the water was only a week old at the time I got infected. We got chlorine up to 10ppm and kept it there for nearly a day. The water cleared up almost immediately and has been testing within limits for PH, alklinity, etc.. The dealer told us to continue using MPS after each soak, but I'm wary since that didn't seem to work well the first time and we have two small kids that like to jump in with us (lord knows they don't need this rash!). So I've switched to dichlor (1tbs) after each use and using the MPS once a week to 'shock'. I'm also super paranoid about testing the water now! LOL My DH rolls his eyes, but he only got one or two spots on his leg that aren't bothering him at all.
Chlorine has generally been between 2-3ppm when I test (we generally soak at night and I usually test the next AM). We also have a ozonator and use one of the Nature2 cartridges.
Can anyone tell me if we're on the right track as far as keeping our tub sanitary with dichlor? I worry that I'm either using too much or too little- sometimes I'll test before getting in and the chlorine level is 1ppm or less...is that normal if it's been 24hrs since we added dichlor?
-
I am sure one of the old timers will respond and I would rather they tell you what you should be doing, but I have to admit I am astounded at the dealers telling so many users to use MPS after each soak rather than dichlor. MPS is not a sanitizer. So you would be going at least a week with no santizer and then you are shocking with dichlor. By the end of the week you are soaking in MPS and dirty water. I just don't get it. Maybe one of the long timers can give us a heads up about why that would ever be something a dealer would advise you to do.
-
Theoretically all of us are not supposed to soak without using dichlor before and during our soaks. The Vermonter method that we use is based on a microbiologist's (Vermonter) recommendation using his tub as a test vessel. The reason for adding chlorine after we soak is to not soak in high levels of chlorine, as you noted possibly 0 PPM chlorine.
The correct method is not to throw 1,2 or 3 teaspoons into a tub and hope for the best but to measure how much dichlor is used to achieve a 3PPM reading 20 minutes after we add the dichlor (higher reading is good as well). The therory is that at 3 PPM and 20 minutes you have basically killed the bacteria that could have grown into billions in 24 hours. It also means that 1 person in a 500 gallon tub may need more than 1 person in a 250 gallon tub and 1 person needs less in a tub vs having 5 people in a tub... the magic number is 3 PPM in 20 minutes.
Putting the correct amount and achieving this goal means that as the chlorine dwindles down hours later the bacteria hasn't had a chance to get a foothold as the residue chlorine is still killing bacteria although slowly as the chlorine PPM gets lower. In 24 hours, assuming that there was a residue for hours after adding the dichlor the bacteria hasn't grown to epic proportions and it is considered safe to some degree. If you don't soak for a couple of days, then more chlorine needs to be added to stop the bacteria from getting out of control.
I would say that if you use dichlor after every soak, achieve 3 PPM at 20 minutes and if you skip days add the amount needed then you will be OK.
MPS is expensive and I suspect that is why some dealers push it. I also think that is why they push Nature 2 (N2)and ozone as needing less chemicals as well. Chlorine costs about $30 a 5 lb pail, MPS about $15 for 2 lbs and N2 costs about $25 for a cartridge. 5 lbs of chlorine lasts about 8 to 10 months, N2 4 months and 2lbs of MPS probably 2 months if that ... I can see why some would push it. MPS is a good product but it is only for oxidizing, not for sanitizing. Clear water does not equal clean water.
I will note that I do skip a day of dosing and will soak in the tub, I will not skip 2 days of dosing and soak in the tub.
-
I like you followed my dealer's instructions. I was to put 4 oz of reserve which is bromide salt initially and 2 oz of MPS. Then follow with 2 oz of mps after each soak to activate bromine. and add once a week 2 oz of reserve. But then the rash came on Friday. Today I think I am running a slight temp and feel flu ish as well. Rash is resolving. I have been very happy with dealer, but he is chemically challenged. I like you wish there was more education regarding maintenance. In his defence, he did give me bromine tabs. But do I only shock with MPS or should I do something different. Thank you for your input.
-
Vinny, I tested the first couple of times I started throwing dichlor in and we would get 3ppm or more after 20 minutes of the jets being on/circulating. 99% of the time it's just me and DH soaking (sans suits). The kids go in every other day or so, but usually only with DH.
At any rate, I try to keep the levels at 3ppm or more after that first 20 min....just concrned about the levels dropping to 1ppm or less hours later. But your explanation makes sense so I'm less worried about it now.
Thank you for the info!
IlliniFan, glad to hear your rash is resolving. It's no fun, is it!
-
(Illini Fan) I like yourself am new to this water chemistry my local dealer suggested (EZ SPA OM ) so I bought the start-up kit around $70.00. At first I micro manage the system now that I have routine every thing has been great, very easy system to use shock weekly and add EZ boost after each soak have been using the system for 2.5 months and water is clear and test strips are so close in to range eveytime we test we don't worry might be worth checking out. By the way I live in mid-state illinois so we our expierencing the same type of weather , just came in from a 30 degree soak and couldn't be happier.
-
Nobody has challenged the notion that Illi has psuedomonas folliculitis. There are other things that can cause bumps and break outs. Many people, including myself, are sensitive to MPS. I've had to toss out the MPS that I use to shock weekly and start doing this with dichlor. Just a thought.
-
morgan23, I hope my post didn't come off as "holyer than thou". I was trying to address a misconception that some people have in using dichlor while answering your question. After rereading it, it sounded a little or a lot like it might be an arrogant response ... it wasn't intended to be.
tony, did chemgeek explain how MPS works because waterbear tried to and everywhere he led me I kept reading to use MPS as a shock ... even on the old pool solutions/pool forum websites. He was telling me that weekly addition of MPS will keep chloramines from forming, not destroying chloramines as we all believe, I couldn't find evidence of what he was saying.
-
Vinny, I didn't take it as such- I've been lurking here for a while and know that you are one of the 'good guys' :).
I'm glad you put the info out there, because after reading sooooo many different posts regarding water chemistry I was getting a bit overwhelmed.
I really wish that dealers would be more informed re: sanitation for spas. We really like our dealer and he's been great except for the info he gives out on using MPS as a 'sanitizer' (which we now know it's not!).
-
morgan23, I hope my post didn't come off as "holyer than thou". I was trying to address a misconception that some people have in using dichlor while answering your question. After rereading it, it sounded a little or a lot like it might be an arrogant response ... it wasn't intended to be.
tony, did chemgeek explain how MPS works because waterbear tried to and everywhere he led me I kept reading to use MPS as a shock ... even on the old pool solutions/pool forum websites. He was telling me that weekly addition of MPS will keep chloramines from forming, not destroying chloramines as we all believe, I couldn't find evidence of what he was saying.
He did and there is a post over on the other forum regarding it but trying to find it may be tough. I know he spoke with folks from Dupont for information, but what you have heard...I also have heard...that mps does a better job at preventing than destroying...though I believe they will do so...just not as complete.
-
I'm not a big fan of having dealers test water. Some may not know enough, some may be using uncalibrated computers and some might be trying to rip you off.
I have a local pool & spa dealer who told me once for my pool that my CYA at 100 is about where they like to see it. A CYA of 100 corresponds to about 7 or 8 PPM chlorine in a pool not 3 PPM (30 to 50 cya) in what we usually shoot for.
I think the dealers who go to bioguard school or such may have a handle rather than a dealer who just sells "chemicals".
-
where can I find out what the Vermonter method is that is mentioned.
Also, what is CYA and how do you test for CYA?
Tony
-
CYA is stabilizer which is in dichlor, trichlor or can be added to water by itself.
Vermonter's info is here: http://www.rhtubs.com/bbs/FAQ.htm
-
where can I find out what the Vermonter method is that is mentioned.
Also, what is CYA and how do you test for CYA?
Tony
Yeah.... I need to know too... I always thought... CYA= cover your a$$ ;D
-
Even though CYA is in dichlor, what is it and how do you test for it. If the level is high, earlier posts seem to indicate it can allow bacteria to grow.
Tony
-
CYA is chlorine stabilizer. It is only used for pools to protect the chlorine from UV radiation which will destroy the chlorine. As it builds up in the water it locks up more and more of the chlorine where the chlorine becomes useless.
To test you need a kit that will allow you to test for it, I'm not sure if strips can test for it.
The way you do it in a Taylor kit is to add 7 ml of spa or pool water and add 7 ml of CYA testing reagent. Swirl for 30 seconds and then add it to the chlorine vile which has a black dot on the bottom ... when you can't see the dot, take the cya reading on the side of the vial.
Dichlor is about 50% CYA so for every PPM of chlorine you add, CYA gets about 0.9 PPM. Chlorine goes away, CYA doesn't. After a month of soaking you are probably close to 100 PPM CYA.
The good news is that even at 300 PPM CYA (3 months of soaking) most bacteria in a tub is being killed because most bacteria need a combined chlorine & contact time of 0.5 or less. The bad news is that hot tub rash bacteria has a contact time of 50 so if it gets into your water and you have high CYA then it will not be killed by the chlorine you are adding.
The ways around this are - Use bromine, use bleach once the CYA hits 20 PPM, drain the tub monthly or realize that if you use a public spa - do not use your spa until you wash your suit. If people come over, shock your tub with dichlor to about 10 to 15 PPM and hopefully you'll kill whatever might have been growing.
Honestly, if you keep up on your water even 3 months out getting hot tub rash is almost non exsistant. Most of the people that get it have been improperly trained or newbies who don't know. Most of us use the Vermonter method, some of us use N2, some use ozone. Some don't use ozone and N2 at all and still haven't got the hot tub rash. I wouldn't worry about it but I would file it as a possibility when you don't look at your tub for 4 days, open it up and see crystal clear water ... before going in - hit the tub with dichlor at least an hour before and then go in.
-
Because of my reaction to MPS, I have to shock with dichlor. I know that liquid bleach is an option, but I just don't want to go that route. So my question is, how does the germ that causes hot tub itch get into a personal spa? If it's just myself and my husband using it and no suits are involved, do I need to worry about it?
-
Because of my reaction to MPS, I have to shock with dichlor. I know that liquid bleach is an option, but I just don't want to go that route. So my question is, how does the germ that causes hot tub itch get into a personal spa? If it's just myself and my husband using it and no suits are involved, do I need to worry about it?
Psuedomonas aeruginosa is common in the environment, specifically in soil, water and on plants. Even though it is just you and your husband using the spa, you need to worry about it...microscopic entities will swim with you if you let them. :o
-
Pseudomonas can hang out in your hose or be tracked into your tub on your feet. In most cases, it is just a ubiquitous critter that causes no harm. The tub gives it a great environment to multiply and (this is only my opinion) the hot water and abrasive action of the jets allows it to more easily get into folicules.
So simple precautions can limit the introduction, but probably not completely prevent it. That's why good water management is critical.
I remember being so afraid that I would mess up and we would all get the rash..but so far, so good. I learned so much from the guys on this forum. ;)
-
Fwiw, I can keep my CYA under 100ppm for 3+ months. Mostly due to the fact that I'm pretty much the only bather and therefore my dichlor doses are minimal. But I also think using a N2 catridge along with an ozonator and using mps instead of dichlor to prevent chloramines helps alot too. Oh yeah, I try and keep my pH between 7.2 and 7.4 as well so that my dichlor doses will be a higher percentage of hypochlorus acid(the killing form of chlorine). This maximizes the sanitizing capabilities of each dose.
-
This whole post has me really scared! I'm getting my spa tomorrow, and will be in it with my husband. 10 year old and 2 year old. All of this chemical talk makes NO sense to me!!! Will I "get" it once I have the stuff?
Also, I will be going away for 3 days in December, and 6 days in January. What do you do then?
-
Searching- Take a deep breath...and relax.. it only sounds complicated because you are not currently using and adjusting chemicals. They will deliver your tub..and I am assuming set it up, and show you how to use your chemicals ( my dealer did ) Then what people are talking about will make more sense. knock on wood... but I have had a tub now since September.. granted in the scope of things that is not long... but I have not messed up my water...and the kids and I are rash free... If I can do it.. anyone can ;)
-
Like I said, I was really scared too, but if you hang out on here, you will learn and have no problems with your water management. It was so confusing to me at first, I thought I would never understand it, but now it is second nature. The problems that I noted on here were related to poor water management and doing things that didn't make any sense. (the incident with my cousin was due to a ton of people jumping in a brand new tub where no one understood anything about water management). The incident with my friends resulted from using a tub at a rental property that was just opened after storage. Apparently old water had been sitting in the lines and no consideration was made for that.
You may want to think about how long you allow your children to soak. I limit my 15 and 16 year old boys to about 15 minutes.
What you do while you are on vacation depends on the sanitizer that you use. I use Bromine and have never had a problem leaving my tub for vacation.
-
Fwiw, I can keep my CYA under 100ppm for 3+ months. Mostly due to the fact that I'm pretty much the only bather and therefore my dichlor doses are minimal. But I also think using a N2 catridge along with an ozonator and using mps instead of dichlor to prevent chloramines helps alot too. Oh yeah, I try and keep my pH between 7.2 and 7.4 as well so that my dichlor doses will be a higher percentage of hypochlorus acid(the killing form of chlorine). This maximizes the sanitizing capabilities of each dose.
Your N2 cartridge is a slow low level sanitizer itself that works regardless of the CYA level.
-
Being in Florida, I don't plan on keeping the water much over 98. We don't like it HOT. Should I still limit the time my kids are in? I kind of bought this because I thought it would get more use than a pool. Everytime we are at a house with a pool and spa, everyone is always in the spa. Is the time limit just because of the heat?
-
Being in Florida, I don't plan on keeping the water much over 98. We don't like it HOT. Should I still limit the time my kids are in? I kind of bought this because I thought it would get more use than a pool. Everytime we are at a house with a pool and spa, everyone is always in the spa. Is the time limit just because of the heat?
Yes, time limit is because of heat. The lower the heat, the longer you or your family can soak safely.
-
I think at 98* you are all set to let them play! You don't have to worry about messing with their body temp.
-
My tub is at 101-102, that is why I limit the time for the kids. I think you are fine at 98 for the kids ;)
-
Tony, you mention N2 being a slow, low level sanitizer, do you believe it can kill the psued. germ? I know some people use nothing but N2 and MPS, which we all know is not a sanitizer. I'm like Boni and was totally freaked out about the whole psued. thing. I got bumps that looked just like it and PANICKED. I was ready to give up the whole spa thing. Luckily, my brother-in-law is an allergist and I found out it was the MPS I was shocking with. PHEW.
-
Our 5.5yr old and 3yr old go into the tub with us often and will usually stay in for 30 min or so. We keep the tub at 98 or 99 while they're in there with us. But honestly they are doing so much jumping/splashing that they are in and out of the water a lot so I don't worry about them getting overheated.
But I would limit their time more if our water temp was over 100.
-
Tony, you mention N2 being a slow, low level sanitizer, do you believe it can kill the psued. germ? I know some people use nothing but N2 and MPS, which we all know is not a sanitizer. I'm like Boni and was totally freaked out about the whole psued. thing. I got bumps that looked just like it and PANICKED. I was ready to give up the whole spa thing. Luckily, my brother-in-law is an allergist and I found out it was the MPS I was shocking with. PHEW.
MPS is a chemical that some people do get an allergic reaction to. MPS also stays with the water until it has something to oxidize. That is why it is a little more "idiot proof" than breakpoint chlorination but leaves bathers succeptable to a reaction if they are sensitive to the product.
This is my opinion on N2 (Frog also). I do think it would kill the psued bacteria like it will kill other bacteria. There are other types of "bugs" that it may not kill such as virises and parasites, but they are not nearly as prevelant as bacteria in a spa. The trouble with the silver is that the water can be so quickly overcome with all bacterias when the spa is used. The silver cannot keep up. A flash sanitizer such as chlorine will scour you tub and leave it clean...combined with N2, the silver will keep the water clean while there is no use so when you get back in...even with zero free chlorine...the silver has been working and you're soaking in a chlorine free spa. In my experience, silver and just MPS has not worked well. Over loading with MPS may allow the silver to do its job better, but once someone uses the spa its got a lot of work to do. Maybe because I use my spa daily there wasn't enough time to do a thorough sanitation before the spa was used again...but I always got cloudy water when trying this method. Another plus to silver is it makes chlorine even more effective because it works at softening bacteria's outer shell.