Hot Tub Forum
General => General info Somewhat hot tub related => Topic started by: spaman-- on December 10, 2007, 01:29:52 pm
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Yesterday at 1:20p.m my phone rang, it was Stuart wondering where I was. "why?" he explains as he and his family was walking to their car, gun shots rang out from the church. At that moment police cars flew by me in the opposite direction as I was headed to Home Depot. I frantically started dialing all my employees numbers, astoundingly of us at Springs Spas (except 2) attend New Life Church.
One of our employees was in lock down until 4:30 pm another close friend and past part time employee was in lockdown in the basement of the World Prayer Center. Other employees skipped church for skiing, as I did to do household chores. for a brief time it was extremely scary trying to account for all of our employees and friends. Luckily Stuart and his family had already left the church, as even in his condition I am certain he would have tried to stop the action of the assailant.
The police found smoke bombs placed around and through out the church. The killers plan was much larger than killing 2 sisters, wounding their father and grazing a fourth victim. One courageous security guard (a female) shot and killed the assailant, what an amazing leap of faith as God gave her the strength to shoot and kill a man armed with heavy assault rifles attempting to kill everyone in his path. I do not know this lady but I sure want to thank her personally as this would have been much worse had she not have been in Gods grace and blessed with courage.
I look and think back, where would have my family and myself been had we gone to church? Its simple really we would have been in the foyer with Stuart and his family discussing our blessings of the season. Whew!
Rest assured my family and myself will be there at the church for the teen service and worship Wednesday. Our faith not shakin' but made stronger by a tragedy that could have had much worse results. While we grieve for the losses of the victims we must somehow find good and forgiveness.
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I'll probably get spanked for saying this, (bring it) but you have to wonder how many more would have died or been injured had there not been armed volunteers in that building.
Kudos to that woman for saving who knows how many lives.
One of the victims was from this area.
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Spaman
I'm glad to hear your family along with Stuart and his family are all ok. What a terrible experience. If not for that armed security guard at your church, it looks like this could have been much worse. (I am still surprised at the idea of an armed security guard in a church, but I guess when everyone has guns, everyone has guns) Your congregation has sure been through a lot this year already. My sincerest condolences to the families who are suffering such terrible losses at this time of the year.
Rich
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what is going with people ? I think there are many reasons. Not to over exaggerate the medias role but I think the way these stores get covered plays in a part in copy cats. I am so sorry for all those involved. My prayers go out to all the families.
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Put the blame squarely where it lies- on the shooter. The media didn't make him do that, his gun didn't make him do that, his twisted sick mind made him do that.
They need to start putting a little discipline back into the public schools, and parents need to get their nads back, stop acting like their children's friends, and start being parents. I've seen so many expamples of children mis-behaving out in public while the parents ignore or even encourage their behavior.
These kids don't stand a chance in the real world when they learn it's not all about them- that sometimes you loose, sometimes people will dis-agree with you. No coping skills. They simply aren't being taught to live in the real world.
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Spaman....my thoughts and prayers are with you and your community at this time. That's gotta shake you up a little, knowing you could have been there. Do you guys always have an armed guard there, or was it just a divine coincidence that day?
Our state was shaken up last week with the Omaha mall shooting. We have family and friends in Omaha, and it seemed like forever before they released the list of victims. I can't even imagine what those families are going through this holiday season. What a senseless loss of life.
I think we will see more of this, as our families break down in this country. Kids need BOTH parents full time. And as Brewman said, they need their parents to be parents.
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Is it just me or is anyone else disturbed by the fact that a church feels the need to employ armed security guards? Is there a history of violence in this community or congregation?
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Is it just me or is anyone else disturbed by the fact that a church feels the need to employ armed security guards?
Yes, that caught my attention, too. Sorry state of affairs in this country if we need security guards at every event where the public gathers. Then again, with all the wackos out and around it is becoming necessary to have them. :'(
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Is it just me or is anyone else disturbed by the fact that a church feels the need to employ armed security guards? Is there a history of violence in this community or congregation?
I am alarmed for the need to have armed guards in our houses of worship. However it seems this is the world we live in. I believe that the church in question was on special guard because of the other shootings at the other facility. My prayers go out to all the victims and there family's. Thankfully there were armed guards to prevent a bigger loss of life. Maybe if there were more armed citizens in public they could prevent or at least limit the loss of life. Life is precious, live each day as if it were your last.
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My family and I have a long history with YWAM. This was a shocker - our prayers are with those who lost loved ones.
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Put the blame squarely where it lies- on the shooter. The media didn't make him do that, his gun didn't make him do that, his twisted sick mind made him do that.
They need to start putting a little discipline back into the public schools, and parents need to get their nads back, stop acting like their children's friends, and start being parents. I've seen so many expamples of children mis-behaving out in public while the parents ignore or even encourage their behavior.
These kids don't stand a chance in the real world when they learn it's not all about them- that sometimes you loose, sometimes people will dis-agree with you. No coping skills. They simply aren't being taught to live in the real world.
Brewman, I wish it was as simple as you say. But apparently this kid was from a deeply religious family and had been home schooled. So I don't think too much blame can be landed on the doorsteps of the public education system in this particular case. He apparenlty had a history of problems, as the media is reporting he was ejected from this missionary school several years ago and had been sending threatening messages to others. If true, I'm curious as to why he wasn't dealt with before now, and why oh why, would he have access to assault rifles or other weapons?? (Admittedly, the media loves this stuff and throws out all kinds of inaccurate, sensational information, so the above info could be wrong.)
I personally think that we have always had, and will always have, a certain segment of the population that just does not fit in to society. I think these people have always been with us. They just were not as obvious to us. Today, due to our advanced communications and media, they immediately rise to prominece and notariety. And they obviously have ready access to these horrific weapons they use to inflict maximum harm to the people around them. And why does it seem like some of these kids can get their hands on an assault rifle easier than a can of beer?? I, personally, would not have a clue where to go to get a freakin' assault rifle. I cannot believe this does not constitute part the problem here.
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Put the blame squarely where it lies- on the shooter. The media didn't make him do that, his gun didn't make him do that, his twisted sick mind made him do that.
They need to start putting a little discipline back into the public schools, and parents need to get their nads back, stop acting like their children's friends, and start being parents. I've seen so many expamples of children mis-behaving out in public while the parents ignore or even encourage their behavior.
These kids don't stand a chance in the real world when they learn it's not all about them- that sometimes you loose, sometimes people will dis-agree with you. No coping skills. They simply aren't being taught to live in the real world.
Around the corner from where I live there is a large church similar in size to this one and we sometimes take our dogs there at night to run in a field that is behind the church. We have met a security guard there who has told me that the reason for his being there that it had to do with terrorism, that threats have been made to churches in general not them directly but that is why he and others are there around the clock.
Brewman I am not at all saying its the medias fault, I just do not think they are always responsible in the way they cover stories.
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Thank God for this woman, Jeanne Assam. She was working as a volunteer in the church and had a concealed carry license.
(http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b206/EastTexasSpa/14817484_240X180.jpg)
She saved untold numbers of lives and is a true hero.
I was at church Sunday with my little girl, legally armed with a 9mm handgun. I can only hope that I would have the same amount of guts and courage as Ms. Assam should I ever find myself in a similiar situation. I would venture to guess that probably a fifth of our congregation is armed. I only pray that we can get that number up to 95% or better.
EVERY qualified American should take the responsibility to do EVERYTHING within their power to protect their family and friends. If you can legally own and carry a firearm and choose not to, you should hang your head in shame.
(http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b206/EastTexasSpa/sign_002.jpg)
George, I am thankful that you and Robert and your families are safe. It is a terrible tragedy for the others. :'(
Terminator
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Hey Term, don't get me wrong. Despite the fact that I am a non-gun owning, blue state, east coast liberal, I truly respect your right to arm yourself, your family and that (wished for) 95% of your congregation. Personally, I would be scared to death to sit in one of the pews in your church, but I understand that this is your local community's custom and standand, and I respect that.
With that said, however, I do have a question about these "assault rifles" the media keeps talking about. It seems like most of these shootings involve these kinds of weapons. Why can't the Gub'mint regulate these weapons like they do hand grenades and land mines. Last I heard, we don't have much of a problem with them in our schools, churches and shopping malls.
It would seem to me that the legitimate value of these rifles as a defensive and/or recreational weapon is vastly outweighed by the "mass killing power" they also have. Especially, if they constantly turn up as the weapon of choice at these tragedies.
I never hear this discussed in the news. And I am genuinely curious as to other views on the issue.
Thanks,
Rich
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With that said, however, I do have a question about these "assault rifles" the media keeps talking about. It seems like most of these shootings involve these kinds of weapons.
The term "assault weapon" is a selective fire rifle or carbine firing ammunition with muzzle energies intermediate between those typical of pistol and battle rifle ammunition. Assault rifles are categorized between light machine guns, intended more for sustained automatic fire in a support role, and submachine guns, which fire a handgun cartridge rather than a rifle cartridge.
The leftist mainstream media is using the term out of context to scare the public at large. To date, there has only been 1 instance of a legally obtained assault weapon being used to commit a crime, and it was by a police officer.
The weapons being used by these losers are semi-auto rifles....one pull of the trigger, one bullet fired. No different from Elmer Fudd's hunting rifle.
Why can't the Gub'mint regulate these weapons like they do hand grenades and land mines.
There are currently over 20,000 firearm related laws on the books. How many more will it take? 100, 10 thousand????
Simply enforce the laws on the books. Don't take away more rights from responsible, qualified, law-abiding citizens.
Fully automatic weapons have been regulated by the federal government since the mid 1930's. Anyone possessing a fully-automatic weapon in this day and age is (a) doing so legally by complying with all federal regulations and background checks or (b) doing so ILLEGALLY.
Grenades, bombs, etc are explosive devices and should be regulated.
It would seem to me that the legitimate value of these rifles as a defensive and/or recreational weapon is vastly outweighed by the "mass killing power" they also have. Especially, if they constantly turn up as the weapon of choice at these tragedies.
I would suggest going to www.ar15.com and posing your question there. :D
Dang, I started writing this response an hour and a half ago, but some lady came in and bought a Sovereign. Sorry it's taken so long to reply.
Term
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it is the right to bear arms!!!!!!!! It is not a relative position, not some arms but all arms. YOU HAVE TO BE AS ARMED AS THE CRIMINAL. IT IS A NICE DAY FOR MY AK........Don't buy into a dilution of your rights......if you do....pretty soon......mums the word.....the term will be silenced, along with millions of others....free speech and right to bear arms......Live free or die.....Tom
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Thanks for taking the time, Term.
This is an issue I have wondered about everytime I hear a news anchor talk about that kid in a trenchcoat who just killed a bunch of people with an "assault rifle". How come nobody calls them on this?
As a sidenote, I do, however, take issue with your use of the term "leftist" mainstream media. I came to the conclusion a long time ago that the corporate media lords could give two shakes as to whether its "left", "right" or sideways. These corporate devils look to advertising dollars, media share and nothing more.
O'Reilly may be on the "Right" and Obermann on the "Left", but if the ratings for either of them should drop, they would be out the door with a drop-kick.
(This, I believe, also explains the existence of Nancy Grace.)
Rich
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My son works in an outdoors sporting goods store (hunting, fishing, trapping, etc). He tells us about people who come in to buy a gun/rifle but don't 'pass' the state/government ownership requirements. One person told him, ' I'll just have my brother/cousin, some relative, pick it up for me'. Fortunately, it is a fairly known group of regular customers so the staff knows not to sell the particular weapon to his brother/cousin. Not that the guy is a potential 'problem' but he didn't qualify to own a weapon.
Imagine this being in a large city and the same situation happened? The store employees wouldn't know brother Billie Bob from Adam and would sell the gun. Like it was said, the government has laws to restrict ownership but even 'safe' people will go around the corner to get a gun, imagine the extremes a 'deviate' will go through to get one?
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Here in Florida the licensing is fairly strict......submit to questions and return in three days to find out of you qualified. If a person can legally buy a gun then so be it. Florida is a conceal carry and a shoot first state......mmmmmmm...crime is dropping......the dilution of your rights is the issue, speech, assembly, religion, to bear arms........these are why USA is a great country.......live free or die.......that is three instances in 7 days that the murderer carried an AK........the right is to bear arms....not particular arms.......not up to but excluding the following....the constitution is absolute or the country will crumble......this isn't france.
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No amount of laws will prevent criminals from getting the tools of their trade. Just like prohibition was a collosal failure, so has been the war on drugs, and gun control.
Demands are supplied when there is enough demand. It's not the gun, it's the person. And an assault rifle isn't any more deadly or menacing than any other firearm. But most people don't have a clue as to what an assault rifle really is, they just glom on to the media hysterics. Our local media couldn't describe an assault rifle in any meaningful way, but they sure love to toss the word around.
Maybe when people have had enough of being victimized by criminals and psychopaths, and start defending against them, the behavior will change.
As for this particular instance, in my earlier posts I didn't mean to imply that this one person was necessairly a victim of the public schools, etc.... I was trying to say that there seems to be a whole generation of people coming of age that can't tolerate being told no, or who can deal with their problems without having to commit murder.
I suppose we'll find out someone was picking on him.......
PS
A very close friend of mine was murdered about 3 months ago. He was riding his bicycle when a couple of gang bangers who'd just been released from prison decided to rob him. They beat him to a pulp with a baseball bat.
So now I suppose we need to control the sale of baseball bats, becasue they kill.
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brew...sorry about your friend...preach on.......Tom
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He tells us about people who come in to buy a gun/rifle but don't 'pass' the state/government ownership requirements. One person told him, ' I'll just have my brother/cousin, some relative, pick it up for me'.
This is called a "straw man purchase" and is covered by a multitude of the 20,000 existing firearms laws. It is illegal. Adding more laws will not make it more illegal.
I wish we sold guns alongside hot tubs. I think we're going to start selling tanning beds. ::) Time to break out my ol' thong and get a tan.
Term
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I think we're going to start selling tanning beds. ::) Time to break out my ol' thong and get a tan.
Term
Time to break out the ol' blindfold :-/ :'(
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No amount of laws will prevent criminals from getting the tools of their trade. Just like prohibition was a collosal failure, so has been the war on drugs, and gun control.
Demands are supplied when there is enough demand. It's not the gun, it's the person. And an assault rifle isn't any more deadly or menacing than any other firearm. But most people don't have a clue as to what an assault rifle really is, they just glom on to the media hysterics. Our local media couldn't describe an assault rifle in any meaningful way, but they sure love to toss the word around.
Maybe when people have had enough of being victimized by criminals and psychopaths, and start defending against them, the behavior will change.
As for this particular instance, in my earlier posts I didn't mean to imply that this one person was necessairly a victim of the public schools, etc.... I was trying to say that there seems to be a whole generation of people coming of age that can't tolerate being told no, or who can deal with their problems without having to commit murder.
I suppose we'll find out someone was picking on him.......
Now what a minute the media and being responsible... wait where did I hear that...I think what you touch on about an up coming generation of people....can very much be related to video games and violence in entertainment...that they are totally desensitized to death and it finality. I not suggesting that these things be outlawed but I think it is naive to think they do not have an effect on people who spend countless hours...playing these games.....which the more you kill...you more you score...
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I wouldn't argue with your there.
You gotta wonder, though, where the line between fantasy and reality is, and why it's so blurry for some.
I watched the three stooges when I was 6 years old, but even at that young age I knew that raking a saw across someones head, or hitting them with a hammer, or pinching their nose with a pliers (you get the picture), wasn't to be done- I knew it was faked for TV and just funny. Never did occurr to me to try it on someone. There was a definite line there, and I and everyone I was around knew it.
Plus there were definite consequences for any of us who got out of line. Even teachers back then were empowered to use discipline on unruly students.
Now they're too worried about being sued or political correctness to enforce discipline. Somewhere along the line the animals began running the zoo.
Don't get me started on the whole "gangsta" lifestyle, or the numerous wannabee's that mimic it.
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Dang, I started writing this response an hour and a half ago, but some lady came in and bought a Sovereign. Sorry it's taken so long to reply.
Term
I was going to say! I figured it had to be that. I don't have your web cam up, so I couldn't be sure.
I started the application process for a concealed carry permit. I am working with the local sheriff's Office to obtain it. They have said no problem after I documented several threats - two of which came from these boards!
Our church is much smaller, and so it's not likely to be a target. But these days, any public place where thousands of people can congregate should have some sort of security plan in place, and armed guards would make total sense to me. As our church grows, I will be part of that plan.
I'm sorry we have come to this, but we have, and I think we need to fight just as hard to maintain our freedoms as others have to win them for us.
8-)
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I was going to say! I figured it had to be that. I don't have your web cam up, so I couldn't be sure.
I started the application process for a concealed carry permit. I am working with the local sheriff's Office to obtain it. They have said no problem after I documented several threats - two of which came from these boards!
Our church is much smaller, and so it's not likely to be a target. But these days, any public place where thousands of people can congregate should have some sort of security plan in place, and armed guards would make total sense to me. As our church grows, I will be part of that plan.
I'm sorry we have come to this, but we have, and I think we need to fight just as hard to maintain our freedoms as others have to win them for us.
You actually had to document threats to get a concealed carry permit in your state? All you have to do in Maine is pass the extensive background. I carry without a permit ::)
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They have said no problem after I documented several threats - two of which came from these boards!
Gee, I wonder who on earth it could have been???? I'll bet one was hottubdan!
If the other one was who I suspect it was, he finally proved himself useful...for once.
Term
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You actually had to document threats to get a concealed carry permit in your state? All you have to do in Maine is pass the extensive background. I carry without a permit ::)
Chas is actually out in the far, far western part of Texas that we kicked out, so he is more of a subject than a citizen...kind of like being from Canada or Massachusetts.
Term
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I legally carry a gun in one of the 2 states (IL) that doesn't allow ANY form of concealed carry for private citizens. And, other than on the issue of gun control, I'm pretty liberal too. I think one of the larger issues, that nobody wants to talk about, is the failure of the mental health system in this country, and our criminal justice system's balancing act between our rights as citizens and their duty to keep us safe. This is not the first young man to have shown violent, mentally ill tendencies LONG in advance of their shootings (VA Tech and many others) that went unchecked, unchallenged and were still allowed to legally purchase a weapon. Unfortunately, I think the answer will require a lot of government dollars to get these mentally ill people screened and treated. On to another debate.......
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I didn't want this to become a political debate, I moved it from the main forum when it did so. If any one has any more thoughts to share with Spaman or Stuart, please feel free to share. I'll close the thread if it continues as a gun issue, there are plenty of forums for that.
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Thank you all for your thoughts and prayers....
Sunday, we were going to stay and have lunch with friends in the cafe but I was still not feeling all that well so we walked out. As we left there was smoke hanging in the air from a smoke bomb, I told my wife that it was probably kids messing around. We started walking to our car and heard two "pops"...I told my wife "it sounds like someone hitting something." We continued on and heard the popping several more times {around 20).
I kept looking towards the playground where the noise seemed to be coming from and saw an usher run to the edge of the playground and peek around...I told my wife that it was probably kids with firecrackers and he was about to catch them just then he ducked back around the column, I looked through the fence and saw what looked like a man with a gun standing between the buildings. I ordered my wife and daughter to "GET IN THE CAR NOW!"
No sooner had I (quickly) walked around the car, got in and shut the door did hundreds of people come running out of the church screaming "HE'S GOT A GUN, HE'S SHOOTING PEOPLE!"
Several of them pulled open our doors and jumped in and some even tried to climb on the car. I tried to calm everyone and get them in the car while trying to turn the car around. We drove the perimeter road of the church with 6-8 hysterical women and teenage girls that had seen him shooting at people.
I took them to the collage near the church, helped them call dads and husbands and tried to go back for another load but looking across the field it looked like the police and swat where in place so I stayed put and continued to calm the group around me.
In the process of all this I asked my eight year old in the midst of all these hysteria if she was ok and she told me with tears in her eye's, "Daddy, I dreamed about this last night!" When I questioned her about it she said she dreamed about the gunman (she saw him as she jumped in the car and as we drove away) dressed the same way, shooting into the windows. She said the main difference was in her dream he had an ugly deformed little man with him holding a twisted cane pointing were to shoot and laughing.
The whole thing seems very surreal...My wife and I were completely calm and composed through the whole ordeal as if we had no doubt we would be OK.
We are fine in the outcome and want everyone to know that this is not our tragedy but rather that of those who died. I can't imagine being that father standing there not able to help his daughters....
I keep thinking to the fact that I didn’t recognize the sounds were gunshots and didn’t react, anyone who knows me would find this strange but I believe it was God keeping my family safe. Had I engaged in the condition that I’m in, I would have probably died and put my family in harms way.
I'm amazed that there was not more damage...there were thousands of people still in the church and I know for a fact that he fired more than 40 rounds, he also had over 1000 rounds of ammo....
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Stuart - that must have been a tragic experience for you and your family. I can't imagine seeing what you saw. My thoughts and prayers go out to the families who lost loved ones. Someone was watching over you and your family that day. I'm glad you're safe. Thanks for sharing your story with us.
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That is unbelievable! I am thankful that you and your family are OK...I cannot imagine what a harrowing experience that must have been.
I grieve for the man who lost his daughters. That has to be the most unbearable sadness a man could feel. :'(
Chris O
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Man o' Man, your story makes my entire spine shiver. Especially your daughter's dream! You are so fortunate to be safe and with your family. I still can't believe you saw this guy as it was all breaking loose.
My sincere condolences to everyone out there who has been impacted by this terrible situation.
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That is unbelievable! I am thankful that you and your family are OK...I cannot imagine what a harrowing experience that must have been.
I grieve for the man who lost his daughters. That has to be the most unbearable sadness a man could feel. :'(
Chris O
I agree..... no one should have to go through that pain. :'(
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There's not much that I can say that hasn't been said already but I am so glad you and your families are safe.
It was all over the news up here even and I never dreamed for one second that I would know someone that was there. It sent a chill down my spine reading the beginning of this thread and I too felt such sadness for the Father that lost his 2 daughters. So very sad.
One very sick person can change so many lives and unfortunately we see this played out far too often. Because their lives are so worthless, they feel this will give them a place in history in their own death. Maybe we should just stop reporting these brutal acts of cowardness...
The lady guard is certainly a hero as no doubt she saved many more! I just have a hard time believing that having more loaded guns in ones posession will eliminate this. IMO, it just tends to flood a region with weapons and makes it that much easier for those same weapons to fall into the wrong hands. I don't think 200 people firing weapons in a Church would be what God would want... Maybe I'm wrong.... ::)
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I don't think 200 people firing weapons in a Church would be what God would want... Maybe I'm wrong.... ::)
W.W.S.D.?
Term
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glad we didn't find out, Term
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There's not much that I can say that hasn't been said already but I am so glad you and your families are safe.
It was all over the news up here even and I never dreamed for one second that I would know someone that was there. It sent a chill down my spine reading the beginning of this thread and I too felt such sadness for the Father that lost his 2 daughters. So very sad.
One very sick person can change so many lives and unfortunately we see this played out far too often. Because their lives are so worthless, they feel this will give them a place in history in their own death. Maybe we should just stop reporting these brutal acts of cowardness...
The lady guard is certainly a hero as no doubt she saved many more! I just have a hard time believing that having more loaded guns in ones posession will eliminate this. IMO, it just tends to flood a region with weapons and makes it that much easier for those same weapons to fall into the wrong hands. I don't think 200 people firing weapons in a Church would be what God would want... Maybe I'm wrong.... ::)
The wrong hands always seem to be able find the guns though. Having them in the right hands (the armed lady) is the key. Had the gunman been acting in concert with others, having more "right hands" with guns would have been the key to minimizing casualties.
Truly happy you and your family were not among the unfortunate. Having an experience such as that does wonders for your perspective as to what is a tragedy in life.
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If there has been any good from this, it is that Ms. Assam does not have to live with the realization that she ended someones life, though she would have been justified if she had. She can be proud that the actions she took probably saved lives of many others in the congregation.
Here's to you Ms. Assam. [smiley=thumbsup.gif]
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WOWWWWWWWWW!!!! A powerful service was held at our church last night!
The loss is tragic but I can see the good already evolving from all of this as our church was packed with 9000+ people last night. The numbers of people coming to church in the future will grow and these lives lost will not be in vein. These people who lost their lives lived life in its entirety for the church. Thus being said they have moved on and are in a better place. If one person comes to Christ as a result of this tragedy (and I suspect the numbers to be in the thousands) Then I am certain Gods will and plan is working. Last night I heard a message that makes sense "the enemy has NEVER won"!!!!!!!
I believe my church is a safe place and I will take my family there through out the week and faithfully on Sunday. :)