Hot Tub Forum
Original => Hot Tub Forum => Topic started by: solo on September 04, 2007, 03:36:12 pm
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It seems that the spas that have a 24 hour circulation pump tend to put me above my price point ($7000). Would you consider getting one that does not have this feature?
Why or why not?
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It seems that the spas that have a 24 hour circulation pump tend to put me above my price point ($7000). Would you consider getting one that does not have this feature?
Why or why not?
There are many ways to filter water in a spa. Many have circ pumps, some don't. Both ways work. On top of that there are low flow circ pumps and high flow circ pumps. Spas have been around longer than circ pumps with fine results. It is not a necessity.
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On top of that there are low flow circ pumps and high flow circ pumps.
Low flow? I don't like the sound of that!
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There are several Hot Spring and Tiger River spas below your top price. Both have 24 hr circulation pumps. I personally don't care for tubs that use a 2 speed pump to handle circulation duties.
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I too find tubs with PROPER circ pumps (not fish pond pumps) to have far more value to the end user. They filter more maintaining better water quality, are far more quiet and extend the life of the jets pumps as they don't need to be turning on and off throughout the day.
That said, I would think there are still spas offering this feature within your price range as the added cost of the circ pumps alone would not be significant.
Yes, both systems work fine but you will be happier with a circ pump if you can find one in your price range.
Steve
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You should check out the Jacuzzi J-280 non lounge or the J-270 with lounge we sell it with circ just below 6400 with out 6100.00
Circ pump is optional.
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I can't speak for other brands, but I know the Marquis system which doesn't use a circulation pump will typically filter more than most spas with a circulation pump. For instance:
Marquis - 80 gallons per minute x 60 minutes in an hour x 5 hours of filtration per day (factory default setting) = 24,000 gallons filtered per day
HotSpring - 5 gallons per minute (MAX) x 60 minutes in an hour x 24 hours of filtration per day = 7,200 gallons per day
When you look at these two spas filtering, you will see surface water movement throughout the entire spa on the Marquis, but very little surface movement on the HotSpring.
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I can't speak for other brands, but I know the Marquis system which doesn't use a circulation pump will typically filter more than most spas with a circulation pump. For instance:
Marquis - 80 gallons per minute x 60 minutes in an hour x 5 hours of filtration per day (factory default setting) = 24,000 gallons filtered per day
HotSpring - 5 gallons per minute (MAX) x 60 minutes in an hour x 24 hours of filtration per day = 7,200 gallons per day
When you look at these two spas filtering, you will see surface water movement throughout the entire spa on the Marquis, but very little surface movement on the HotSpring.
The "fish pump" circ on HS (and others) is nearly useless IMO but Beachcomber uses a 56 frame circ that draws .6amps and filters 42,000 gallons of water a day. Still one of the best filtrations out there as far as I'm concerned.
I hear Marquis might be going back to a circ... :-X
Steve
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Here's a thought: now that Ozone is one of the primary sanitizers in today's hot tubs, the ideal pump is one that puts as much ozone as possible into the water, without ozone escaping into the air and eating your spa pillows (if you have them).
Energy, as we're now discovering, is not cheap. So, for filtering purposes, the best pump is one that gets the water CLEAN in the most efficient manner. Why pay to turn over the water more times than you have to?
So, it would seem that the "ideal" pump - circulation or otherwise - is not the one that runs for the longest amount of time, or filters the most amount of water. It's the one that results in water that looks sparkling and is clean within user-measurable parameters for the cheapest amount of electricity.
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I mostly agree with ya. The inception of circ pumps were designed to offer the bathers maximum filtration/circulation (which is a good thing and you can't have too much) while operating at the same or less cost than the conventional method of running cycles with the larger (and more power hungry) jet pumps. It's a wonderful thing!
Where I differ in opinion is that ozone does not need to be introduced into the water 24 hours a day in order to be effective. In fact, it's a waste at that level and extremely hard on jets, pillows, humans, the cover, etc. I also dissagree that ozone is considered a "primary sanitizer". It certainly AIDES with chlorine or bromine (which IMO are the primary sanitzers) and can extend the life of these products but it is still an assistant to them with unproven results in just how much it does assist.
Picking peanuts outa sh*t I know.... ;)
Steve
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The "fish pump" circ on HS (and others) is nearly useless IMO but Beachcomber uses a 56 frame circ that draws .6amps and filters 42,000 gallons of water a day. Still one of the best filtrations out there as far as I'm concerned.
I hear Marquis might be going back to a circ... :-X
Steve
I find my circ pump to be quite useful. I never have cloudy water, the spa is always hot and I use very little electricity. At some point, the law of diminishing returns applies to filtered water in a spa. Not that there is anything wrong with filtering 42,000 gallons a day, I just find it to be overkill. I find that the so called "fish pump" on the HSS filters quite efficiently and keeps my spa beautiful.
In the end, both Marquis and HSS keep their water clean and clear and ready for the user to enjoy their spa.
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I mostly agree with ya.... Where I differ in opinion is that ozone does not need to be introduced into the water 24 hours a day in order to be effective. In fact, it's a waste at that level and extremely hard on jets, pillows, humans, the cover, etc.
Steve
I agree with you - that's what I was attempting to say. There should be enough ozone in the water to sanitize it, but not so much that it eats pillows and such. And, AFAIK there's no standard for hot tubs as to the proper application of ozone, so who knows whether 24 hours is enough or too much, and how much depends on each manufacturer's method of introducing ozone to the water. And yes, chlorine and/or bromine are the primary sanitzers, but I think most people would want to use more ozone and minimize chlorine use.
In my humble opinion, many manufacturers produce great, safe, effective hot tubs that will clean the water and offer good therapy. However, that sort of thinking does not jive with some sales presentations (i.e. my way is good, and everything else is crud). I think if hot tub salespeople were first and foremost concerned with making sure customers understood the importance of buying a quality hot tub, the buying public would be better informed, and as a whole more likely to keep me in business.
For example, I sell books for a living. I think it's important to have good bookstores out there, both as an employee and a shopper. If, for example, I worked for Borders, & I couldn't fill a customer's needs, I would much rather send someone to Barnes & Noble than to a web site or Wal-Mart. Sure, I may lose a sale, but I'm losing it A) a company I may want to shop at, and B) a company that may employ me in the future. Unlike Wal-Mart.
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In over 20 yrs., Coleman Spas have never used a cir pump.......I have had no problems with water clarity. Clearness of water is a function of proper sized filter for the gallons of the tub and numbers of times the water courses through the filter daily. At the end of the day, how many times has that water gone through the filter will determine water clarity. Is the filter clean too is important. It is a fairly simple formula but let your spa sales person explain it to you. Checking of course if they even understand it. In and of itself a cir pump is a fairly inexpensive piece of equipment, by itself it shouldn't push a price too much higher than a none cir pump model. Good Luck....trust but verify....Tom
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Really is tough to make an argument against the circulator pump, whether it be a cartidge type or close coupled type. Why run a 2-5 hp pump to do the work a fractional horsepower pump does easily and more quietly?
Educate the consumer about how their hot tub functions and what each component does instead of endless pontification about why manufacturer A is better than manufacturer B. Saves a lot of money in Kool-aide too.
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Solo--
Here is a thought. The primary reason you are getting the spa is hydrotherapy. You like the Moto Massage. You seem to like the idea of the circ pump. You kike Nature2. You have a budget. The 220v Sovereign is too much money.
Consider the Jetsetter. The only drawback from the original description of what you are looking for is size. However, you say the main reason you are getting it is hydrotherapy. While many people don't regret getting bigger spas, many others report a smaller one would be just fine.
The Jetsetter is one of our biggest sellers.
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SOLO,
don't forget the HS Prodigy. It's a little bigger than the Jetsetter, holds 325 gal. and will give you all the hydrotherapy you need. 24/7 circulation and ozone pump, LED light, jets are powerful enough. Very quiet. We have not noticed much change in our elec bill. We have a 2006 Prodigy that is crystal clear, not hard to keep chemicals straight. Does not have stereo, or waterfall, but we figure we didn't need all the bells and whistles. I don't know where you live, but I live in Pa. and paid around $6,000 with steps, cover, ozonztor, chemicals. We love it. Good luck.
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I appreciate everyone's suggestions, thank you.
I can't do the prodigy as I really want a lounger and I really want the moto massage.
The jetsetter...that's still an option in the back of my mind. But with a family of 5, I kind of want something we all can enjoy on those rare occassions we do as a family. I haven't ruled out the jetsetter, but the Sovereign is my first choice.
My dealer quoted me $7695 for the 220v Sovereign. His labor day price was $7295. He doesn't know that I am wet testing a Vita Aurora LX and a Sundance Hamilton. Both similarly priced to the Sovereign. But when he finds out that I am looking at those models, he might be able to go down a bit more.
I did him a favor and told him that my price was $7000. We aren't very far off. When he gets hungry for a sale, I have a feeling he will call me.
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My dealer quoted me $7695 for the 220v Sovereign. His labor day price was $7295. He doesn't know that I am wet testing a Vita Aurora LX and a Sundance Hamilton. Both similarly priced to the Sovereign. But when he finds out that I am looking at those models, he might be able to go down a bit more.
I did him a favor and told him that my price was $7000. We aren't very far off. When he gets hungry for a sale, I have a feeling he will call me.
I'm not sure that you telling him your budget was necessarily an issue here. Some dealers give inflated prices and make you work from there to beat them down. Most nowadays give a decent price and try to hold to it with only a few hundred to dicker with but then drop to their real sale price for holiday events. I'm thinking yours is the latter type and that price you saw for Labor Day may be his true sale price.
The fact that you told him your budget at least let's him know he’s in the ballpark of him making a sale. I would NOT hesitate to let him know you're looking at two other brands so he understands that you have options. This should get him to give his true sale price if he isn’t there already. Ask for a “best, final deal” so you can compare to your other options and you’ll find out if there was more on the table to get.
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One dealer just told me that you really don't need a circ pump and can gnerally get more spa for your money if you buy one without a circ pump.
He also said that the REAL advanatge to a cic pump is that the high pressure water never comes in contact with the heater.
Thoughts on his statements?
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Never heard that one. He is probably a drunkard or rides a moped, take your pick.
I will say this:
In 22 years of selling HotSpring Spas with circulation pumps and 100% No-Bypass filtration, we have replaced 10 jet pumps.
Using advanced mathermatical formulations, that come to replacing 1 JET pump every 2.2 years, or thereabouts.
Terminator
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One dealer just told me that you really don't need a circ pump and can gnerally get more spa for your money if you buy one without a circ pump.
He also said that the REAL advanatge to a cic pump is that the high pressure water never comes in contact with the heater.
Thoughts on his statements?
I think this is the problem with some dealers they will say anything to sell a spa. I would think the spa heater element is designed to take some stress and think about the fact that the pump is running at a low speed.
It's been hashed and rehashed and it is just a way of filtration. I paid $300 extra to get a circ pump but it came with an upgraded heater as well. I did it to get 24 hour ozone when needed and the upgraded heater. The tub before that that I wanted had no circ pump. Clean water is clean water either way.
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Term: How many circulation pumps have you replaced? :)
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I live in a cold climate and think that the 24 hour circulation is a benefit to me in freezing weather. I like the idea that there's water moving when it's -20.
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Term: How many circulation pumps have you replaced? :)
Between 20-30 per year at $150 apiece. How many $500 jet pumps have you replaced? :)
Terminator
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A must have for only those who don't like the higher pressure the main pumps give when you stick your butthole over the jet for your colonic irrigation.
Yeah, don't forget the shock when yer done.
Alot of it!
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Our jet pumps are $300-400 :)
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Our jet pumps are $300-400 :)
......and........how many per year?
Terminator
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I have no idea I'm not a service technician
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One dealer just told me that you really don't need a circ pump and can gnerally get more spa for your money if you buy one without a circ pump.
He also said that the REAL advanatge to a cic pump is that the high pressure water never comes in contact with the heater.
Thoughts on his statements?
That's just a sales tactic to make his particular brand appear more favorable to you. Ignore it. The FACT is that a 24-hour filtration system (like Jacuzzi/Sun Dance and many others) work EXACTLY as well as the periodic systems used by other mfgs (such as Bullfrog and Beachcomber).
One thing I noticed in this particular thread are dealers pointing you to the lower cost (and smaller) spas. That should NOT be the case. Pick a SIZE you want to fit the price range (i.e. a MINIMUM 400 gallon tub for $7K vs. just the price target). That will help you figure this out quicker (and will also stop the dealers from trying to fit you into a smaller/less costly tub).
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One thing I noticed in this particular thread are dealers pointing you to the lower cost (and smaller) spas. That should NOT be the case. Pick a SIZE you want to fit the price range (i.e. a MINIMUM 400 gallon tub for $7K vs. just the price target). That will help you figure this out quicker (and will also stop the dealers from trying to fit you into a smaller/less costly tub).
I agree with this 98%. The problem is larger spas do cost more and without going into the secondary spa lines of these manufacturers you are not getting a low cost spa. In 2004, the Sundance Optima was about $9000 while the Bahia was about $6300 ... big price difference and they are basically the same size. The Artesian Piper Glen was about $9000, the Emerald was about $7100 and the Grand Cayman I bought was about $6500 but included everything I wanted in it where the other prices were starting points and again they are basically the same size. I looked at the HS Vanguard and at about $7400, it wasn't for me and it was $900 more than my spa with a lot less for my money IMO.
The problem with having a budget and I did have one is you can't think about those higher end spas but you have to find the one that you like that's in your budget. If my budget was $10K+ when I bought mine then a whole bunch more spas would have been considered ... at $6K there were a lot less choices But I did lower my sights from a Piper or D1 Lotus Bay to a Grand Cayman or Down East Windsor SE or Bahia - all of which were in my reach. Here's where the marketing ploy comes in ... after seeing a higher end spa of any manufacturer it's difficult to see a spa with less jets/power, less color choices, no "bling" (like SS jets) or electronics.
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That's just a sales tactic to make his particular brand appear more favorable to you. Ignore it. The FACT is that a 24-hour filtration system (like Jacuzzi/Sun Dance and many others) work EXACTLY as well as the periodic systems used by other mfgs (such as Bullfrog and Beachcomber).
One thing I noticed in this particular thread are dealers pointing you to the lower cost (and smaller) spas. That should NOT be the case. Pick a SIZE you want to fit the price range (i.e. a MINIMUM 400 gallon tub for $7K vs. just the price target). That will help you figure this out quicker (and will also stop the dealers from trying to fit you into a smaller/less costly tub).
Thank you. I appreciate your advice. I am starting to feel like a small fish in shark infested waters...
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The secondary lines are a VERY good way to get a large percentage of what you want in a quality tub. If hte lowest you can get the Sundance guy to go on an Cameo (Optima with a lounger) is $8,200 and that's over your budget, you can look at the lower end line by Sundance to see what does fit and see if you can get the price down. One caution is that you pretty much have to start over from ZERO when you change the line. Most dealers want to take the easy way out and say, I can get you into the 2nd line for $7,000 but what they don't tell you (because they leverage your information) is that the 2nd line only started at $7,500. So, although you've worked the Cameo down (sometimes over a number of weeks) from $9,500 to $8,200 ($1,300 discount), you may only be getting a $500 discount on the 2nd line product (where you may have been able to get a similar percentage discount on it). So, when the dealer does try to move you from X to Y, ask them ....what do you "normally" sell the 2nd line for? Then, do a little math in your head and then repeat out loud.."OK, so you were willing to sell me the Cameo for $8,200 which is approximately an 14% discount off your asking price. Does that mean that you can sell me the (2nd-line product) for ($7,500 * .14 = $1,050) for a price of $6,450, right? Needless to say, this tactic retains the discount you battled so hard for previously and also short-circuits the dealers "automatic profit % increase" they normally see when moving form one line to the next. They will reply with things like "We don't make as much on that line and therefore can't discount it as much" and the like. Your reply should be something like "Well, that's too bad because that is what it would take for me to buy this from you TONIGHT. And you need to be able to MEAN it before you say it so figure out what you want IN ADVANCE of such a discussion. Good luck!
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Here are my two cents.
I have asked my dealers about the circ pump and do they push it (it's an upgrade on our spas), these where there answers.
What is the proximity of the spa to your house, is it right outside your bedroom window? The circ pump is sooo quiet compared to the regular pump, not to say that the regular pumps are loud, but at 1 in the morning when all is quiet... Without the circ pump it will sound like someone is getting into your spa in the middle of the night when the circ cycle starts.
They are more energy efficient, pennies on the dollars, but in the long run...say who knows, 300 years, it should pay for itself :).
later
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Solo,
I have a 24-hour "hush" circ pump in my Beachcomber. It's documented in another thread on this forum, but after enduring month after month of outrageous electric bills, I altered the factory setting and programmed the pump to run from 6:00-8:00 in the morning, and from 4:00-10:00 in the evening. With water filtering only 8 hours per day, my bill was cut from over $200 to frequently around $100.
The duration has worked fine for the most part, although a couple times I've had to add some extra chlorine and shock to catch water that was starting to cloud.
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Are you saying that a .6 amp draw pump was running you $200 a month to run 24 hours a day?
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Solo,
I have a 24-hour "hush" circ pump
Hush pumpies? Aren't they those fried balls of biscuit dough? Maybe this should be in the state fair thread.
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Are you saying that a .6 amp draw pump was running you $200 a month to run 24 hours a day?
That was my first thought too...
The funny thing is, people have no clue unless they meter their spa. I did exactly that many times here in Alberta over the winter months and most spas averaged $30-45 per month Nov-Jan on a 24 hr cycle with a Hush pump.
I remember this guy coming into our store telling us how his spa was running over $200 per month to operate and was really upset. The next day we installed a meter and told him to track his usage, outside temperature, water temp and leave it on 24 hr circulation with the Hush pump.
2 months later he came with the most detailed document I've ever seen (he was an accountant :) ) and he averaged $37 per month in those 2 months operational cost on his spa. We kept that letter and used it in our presentation for people who were really concerned about operational costs.
so $100 or $200 per month.... Naaaaa, I don't think so.... ::)
Steve
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Steve,
What do you guys pay per Kwh up there?
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11.101¢/kWh