Hot Tub Forum
Original => Hot Tub Forum => Topic started by: spaz on July 15, 2007, 09:08:31 pm
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Well, after 2 long months, the spa arrived last Friday and it is beautiful. We had a tremendous amount of trouble with our builder so that's why I haven't been around in a while. (I'll post pictures soon!) But we are having a terrible time balancing the chemicals. I developed some sort of rash that might be hot tub rash (but no one else developed it) or it could have come from chorline--measured at 5.4 when I had it diagnosed. But the pH is low, the alkalinity is off, the calcium is not hard enough (apparently we have soft water here). I thought this was going to be relatively easy from all I read. I just can't seem to get it right. My husband drained the tub just in case. We are using the samples that came with the tub (Simple Blue Start).
Does anyone have any recommendations on which products to use? I have very senstive skin. And any suggestions on how to keep everything in sync? Measuring against a little color strip seems to have a lot of variables. And the test strips we got only measure pH, alkalinity, calcium.
I've been looking forward to my spa for years and it's much more challenging than I expected. I was never good at chemistry.
Any feedback would be very much appreciated. HELP PLEASE!!!!!
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I find the test strips to not be very helpful. I bought an inexpensive kit at Walmart, I think its Aqua Chem, in a blue plastic box. I got it 3 yrs ago and they keep replacing all my reagents for free, I just call the 800#. It measures pH, chlorine and alk. There is another test in there too, but those are the only 3 I do.
I think a lot depends on your water before it goes in your tub. We've found that we need to add 1/2bottle of Metal Gone on fill up, we let that swim around for about 2hrs. We also need to add Spa Defender every other week. Other than that, we don't add anything but dichlor daily, and a dichlor shock on Sundays. We use ozone and N2. We do use Swirl Away at every water change, I think thats an important part of keeping lines clean. When we first got our tub, we were adding so much junk: Velvet Touch, foam down stuff, scent stuff, etc. We don't use any of that now, we keep it very simple.
My advice is to measure the pH and alk of your tap water and see where you are starting. We fix our alk first, then work on the pH. With my water, if I put my alk at 120, my pH stays pretty stable at 7.0. We only check the water once a week. Dichlor will lower your pH over time, so we occasionally add pH Up.
There are many people more knowledgeable than me here to help you. I just want to say to stick with it, you'll get to know your water's needs and then it will be easy for you. We've always used dichlor and its been great. We add it after we get out in the evening. The next time we get in tub, its mostly dissipated so it doesn't affect our skin. Good luck and I hope things start making sense soon.
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My routine is almost exactly the same. It WILL get easier. Also check out rhtubs.com. This is "doc's site" that gets referenced here often. There is a page or two on the basics of water care, and it is very straightforward and complete.
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For sensative skin, BaquaSpa (or equivilant) is the best if, and only if, you get educated and have an educated dealer you are working with.
It comes from the phamacutical industry and is gentler on the skin than chlorine or bromine or MPS.
Good luck and let us know how things work out.
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Thanks everyone! I went and saw the person who sold me the tub today--I felt so stupid because I've been calling, getting my water tested, etc. I didn't expect it to be this complicated. It's just frustrating because you just want to get in and soak but now I'm worried. My husband and son had rashes appear this morning. The dealer said we could just be having a chemical reaction to the Simple Blue that came with the spa and gave us some White River to try. He also gave us the Bromine (sp?) instead of the chorline which I thought was more harsh to skin.
I'll give it a try. Thanks for your support. I hope I can get it right!!!!! I'll keep you posted.
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I really believe it was the dreaded "hot tub rash" as now everyone has it. I am told that Bromine is much better at keeping the tub clean. I measured the Bromine level tonight and it is still null. Any idea how long it takes for Bromine to dispense in the spa? It is in the floater. I really want to enjoy my spa! :)
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Not a bromine user but you need to put a packet of bromine starter into the tub to create a reserve of bromine - did you do that? I would imagine that if you have the starter pack in then bromine should register something with a floater. If you did put a packet in then open the floater more to see if you get a reading.
I'm a little curious about the bromine use ... bromine tabs have chlorine in it that the bromine converts to itself. If you are sensitive to chlorine I would think that the combo of the two is more problematic for your skin.
Make sure all the other parameters of your water are good and as said don't trust the strips. Hot water alone can cause problems with some people.
Hot tub rash (if it is that) may have been caused by not killing the bacteria. You used something that wasn't bromine or chlorine and the idea that bromine is better is not true when compared to chlorine. If your tub is infected with bacteria you need to hit it hard to kill all the nasties ... the only way to do that is with super high concentrations of bromine or chlorine.
I know your a newbie but some dealers know nothing about the chemsicals that are needed. They only know what was told to them. Use bromine but learn how to correctly use it. If that doesn't work then try chlorine. Baqua as a last resort. All have good and bad points and find the one that works for you.
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Thanks Vinny! But don't tell me hot water alone can cause a problem--I think I would croak! It's funny, my hubby and I were just saying think of all the hotel hot tubs we've been in and never had a problem--we spend all this dough and have issues. Anyway my dealer suggested I try the bromine as I guess it is easier to manage--don't know if it will be any better on my skin--if that is the problem.
He told me to put (3) bromine tabs in the floater and then in the spa. I don't know about a packet of bromine starter. He didn't tell me to do that. The ph measured perfect.
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You need that starter to get the reserve. Go here: http://www.rhtubs.com/chemical-compare.htm for some info. Look online elsewhere if you need to.
Some people do react to the hot water and need to put lotions on. Most people don't. I think your problem is from trhe wrong chemicals and no info for help. Once you understand that then it will get really easy.
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Today, I went out and purchased the Taylor K 2016 something vile/drop kit. Okay as if I wasn't confused enough before, now I really am. At first immediate test, nothing came up on the bromine but then after letting sit for a few moments, it registered high. Then I did a test strip and still no bromine measured. And yes there are explicit instructions with the vile kit but it doesn't say how long you should wait for the reading.
I did not add the sodium bromide as I wasn't sure what the true reading really is.
I feel sometimes like I need to be a chemistry major!
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I went to the Taylor website and there isn't a K-2016 but there is a K-2006. It is supposed to be extremely accurate, more accurate than the K-2005 kit that most people use.
I never used it but if you did everything correctly you should take bromine or chlorine readings immediately after mixing, for some reason the longer the chems stay in contact with the test water the more they react with the water.
Taylor has a shorten version of directions on the site. Please verify the kit # and I will read the directions and see if I can help. I am really thinking you have very little to no free bromine in the tub, without the reserve and the fact there was (is) bacteria in the tub it is being used up.
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I believe you must have the Taylor 2106 which is supposed to be a very good and accurate test kit. It is a titration(sp) test which differs from the 2006. From what I see, the colors should change right away.
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http://www.taylortechnologies.com/products_results.asp?Type=ProductNumber&SearchString=k-2106
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Chad,
You were too fast for me. I deleted the question since I read the number wrong!!! ::)
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You should see how fast I move when my lady says she wants a foot rub. :)
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I can't tell what Taylor's test kit I bought. When I went to the store, I asked him for a specific Taylor kit and the outside is labeled Leslie's Pool & Supply but all components on the inside are labeled Taylor. But you believe that the test results should be immediate (like the test strips) and most likely I do need to add the sodium bromide--although one web site I was on did not recommend for some reason--so much information--it's hard to remember everything!
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I can't tell what Taylor's test kit I bought. When I went to the store, I asked him for a specific Taylor kit and the outside is labeled Leslie's Pool & Supply but all components on the inside are labeled Taylor. But you believe that the test results should be immediate (like the test strips) and most likely I do need to add the sodium bromide--although one web site I was on did not recommend for some reason--so much information--it's hard to remember everything!
Post a picture of it and we'll try to help you figure out what kit it is. Also, everything that I've read/heard states to record my results immediately but thats with my k-2005.
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Post a picture of it and we'll try to help you figure out what kit it is. Also, everything that I've read/heard states to record my results immediately but thats with my k-2005.
I think you are all right--it should register immediately as the pH and alkaline reading do.
My husband is ready to turn it into a sand box--I almost cried!! :'( Is this possible--after one week of use. He seems to think there is something in the tub eating the chemical up--phosphates (sp?).
I'm just getting irritated--I have this beautiful spa I can't use. But I'll be patient because I know in the long run--it will be worth it!
I haven't figured out how you post pictures on this site--so I can show you why I'm so sad with a beautiful tub I can't use. :'(
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I think you are all right--it should register immediately as the pH and alkaline reading do.
My husband is ready to turn it into a sand box--I almost cried!! :'( Is this possible--after one week of use. He seems to think there is something in the tub eating the chemical up--phosphates (sp?).
I'm just getting irritated--I have this beautiful spa I can't use. But I'll be patient because I know in the long run--it will be worth it!
I haven't figured out how you post pictures on this site--so I can show you why I'm so sad with a beautiful tub I can't use. :'(
I got a bromine reading this morning--YEAH!!!! But of course, as life would have it, the pH and alkalinity were very low now I'm trying to fix that. I hope to be soaking tonight with a glass of wine!
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I think you are all right--it should register immediately as the pH and alkaline reading do.
My husband is ready to turn it into a sand box--I almost cried!! :'( Is this possible--after one week of use. He seems to think there is something in the tub eating the chemical up--phosphates (sp?).
I'm just getting irritated--I have this beautiful spa I can't use. But I'll be patient because I know in the long run--it will be worth it!
I haven't figured out how you post pictures on this site--so I can show you why I'm so sad with a beautiful tub I can't use. :'(
There's no crying in hot tubbing. :) Take your time, it will all come together. There is a bit of a learning curve. We've all been through this.
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Can you believe it--my chemicals are relatively balanced at 5:09 pm--alkalinity was 10 ppm low so I raised it a tad. It looks like I'll be able to soak tonight. Thank goodness because my feet are killing me.
Thanks everyone for all the support. I may keep asking questions when I need your help. I'll try and help you too if I can.
I do have one last question....even though I have not been in the tub all week, the chemicals seem to flucuate fairly rapidly. Any idea of the causes? Could it be phosphates? Why would my spa rep tell me I only need to test my water once a week. That almost seems deadly. Maybe some of you could help answer that question for me.
As soon as I learn how to post pictures, I'll show my beautiful Jacuzzi J-365.
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As you become less of a newbie it all becomes easier and easier.
The chemicals fluctuate because of the heat and/or bacteria. Even though you don't soak, your tub isn't an entirely closed system. Air gets in there carrying spores and the chems neutralize them and disipate.
Phosphates don't really do anything except for help algea in a pool. Right now it seems crazy to test the water once a week but once you get used to how YOUR water is behaving, it is probably all you need.
I would not suggest a once a week test until you feel comfortable in the chemical balance and sanitizing needs.
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As you become less of a newbie it all becomes easier and easier.
The chemicals fluctuate because of the heat and/or bacteria. Even though you don't soak, your tub isn't an entirely closed system. Air gets in there carrying spores and the chems neutralize them and disipate.
Phosphates don't really do anything except for help algea in a pool. Right now it seems crazy to test the water once a week but once you get used to how YOUR water is behaving, it is probably all you need.
I would not suggest a once a week test until you feel comfortable in the chemical balance and sanitizing needs.
Thanks Vinny. Your right, a once a week test seems ridiculous for me right now. I think I tested it a total of 4 times today. My family is calling ME a chemist--HA--what a joke that is.
Can you tell me, how do you post a picture on this site?
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To post a picture you need to download a photo to photo webhosting site, the only one I know is photobucket.com.
Once there, copy the image name at the site and as you type a message here you have to use the "insert image" button which is the 3 rd button under the "message icon" drop down box. Stick the image name between the two (http://) and depending on the size of the photo, it should be OK. At photobucket you can choose the size of the picture, they have one for web viewing I think.
It sounds more complicated than it really is. Photobucket has 3 photonames and I usually pick the image name (I think it's the third one) and insert.
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Ahhhh.....the tempature was perfect last night--and so was the spa. And waking up this morning without any ailments was nice too! So far so good. I think I've got the 1st 3 balanced. My jacuzzi rep told me not to be concerned about the calcium so I haven't been testing for that. Is it because I'm using the bromine system or what. I thought the hardness of your water was very important too. Are there are other things I need to be looking out for?
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I'm glad you had a totally enjoyable experience!
Calcium is one of the parameters that is debated, some believe in it others do not. It is part of "balanced water" in the 2 main water indexes - the Langlier & Hamilton.
I personally add calcium to my tub to balance my water and use it as insurance that soft water won't attack anything in my tub. It's cheap enough and I don't add too much as I usually shoot for 150 to 200 PPM and test it once at every water change.
I am sure others will chime in.
The parameters to test for are: Alkalinity, PH, Calcium, Sanitizer and if using chlorine (dichlor or trichlor) stabilizer.
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I do as Vinny does and only test CH once at the start of a new fill. It's usually between 100 and 250ppm . I have never added any increaser and my water has never giving me the slightest of problems.
Cheers,
Chad
ps- Have you figured out how to post pics yet? I have some very detailed instructions that I can post if need be. :)
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Ahhhh.....the tempature was perfect last night--and so was the spa. And waking up this morning without any ailments was nice too! So far so good. I think I've got the 1st 3 balanced. My jacuzzi rep told me not to be concerned about the calcium so I haven't been testing for that. Is it because I'm using the bromine system or what. I thought the hardness of your water was very important too. Are there are other things I need to be looking out for?
I always thought C.H. will eat your components, especially the heater?? :-?
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I always thought C.H. will eat your components, especially the heater?? :-?
Calcium, in the proper range, will put a light coating on the spa components and help to protect them. Too high a calcium level will put too heavy a coating and add scale. Water with a low calcium level will seek it from sources that contain it. Portable spas with acylic shells and modern pumps and heaters are pretty much imune to calcium seeking water which is why many say there is no need to add calcium if your tap level is low. However, in a concrete spa or pool, it is essential to maintain calcium in the proper range because water will seek to gain balance and draw the calcium from the concrete. I like to keep my calcium level just over 100 ppm. Water from my tap comes in at about 50 ppm. I raise it because calcium also puts a little polish to the water. I keep it at the relatively low end of normal because I feel that too high a calcium level can be more troublesome than too low a level.
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Okay, I'm looking for a book "Hot Tub for Dummies". I just don't understand how all of you keep everything in check! Just for example, on Saturday I went to (4) different places to have my water tested. I know it sounds crazy but I just wanted to see the results I would get and just as I suspected they were all different. Why you ask? One had a machine the strip went thru, one had a physics looking lab that measured in decimals, one just did a strip test and one did a Taylor kit type test. All with different results, different quantities of chemicals to add to make it perfect. No wonder this is so challenging!! I've been in my tub every night but only for 20 minutes. The bromine reading is still low--in fact the (3) tabs that were in there a week ago don't look any different. I generally add the oxidizer every evening after getting out of the tub. The alkaline is perfect but the pH is high. I've read that a high pH is better than a low pH. I can't even think about the calcium because just measuring those (3) is enough. One good thing--all the stress of this has helped me to lose 6 lbs. and a girl can never complain about that!!!
Okay so all you hot tub experts out there--and I know from reading this forum for the past (2) months there are many of you. What is a person to do? Should I worry or just sit back and relax?
Also, one more technical question. We fill the water every night just below the headrests (like we are supposed to) yet the next evening the water is low enough to not allow the top jets to be fully submerged. Is it normal to experience this type of water loss? My spa is covered all day but it does get direct sun most of the day however the weather has been cooler than normal with a lower humidity than normal. Just asking as it seems odd I have to fill it constantly.
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Okay, I figured out one thing--I'm somewhat computer literate (maybe a little sizing challenged) but definitely chemically chanlleged!
(http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x258/825palm/July2007010.jpg)
(http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x258/825palm/July2007015.jpg)
(http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x258/825palm/July2007016.jpg)
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Beautiful set up Spaz. I really like the deck. 8-)
Your tub looks really familar for some reason. :)
Btw, what's your handicap?
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Is your floater adjustable? If so, open it up a little.
The water level dropping is a mystery. Should not be happening.
Side questions. Do you have ozone? What part of the country are you in?
1 piece of advice. Find yourself one chemical mentor. Too much conflicting advice will drive you nuts.
You have found one of the mysteries of the industry; the more you have your water tested by multiple people and techniques, the more different results you get.
Nice photos.
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I love your deck and the tub looks really nice too! :) Being a newbie myself I'm no help with the chemical end of things. Keep persevering though, I'm sure things will eventually balance out.
Melissa
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So most of you don't have to "top off your tub" everyday. We are keeping our tub right now at 98 because of the heat of the summer. There is always a tremendous amount of condensation when you open up the cover. Oh, I hope I don't have a leak--it's not even 3 weeks old. As you can see, it's partially built into the deck. I think I just lost a couple of more pounds!
Thank you for the compliments! I love the deck as well! Believe it or not, I don't play golf! I just like to putt--can't drive a ball worth a darn!
Hot Tub Dan--you are my chemical mentor! :) The floater is opened all the way. I live in Va Beach and did not get an ozonator--I wish I would have! I somehow thought it was included when every other place I went to tried to upsell me on it!
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Very nice setup.
The loss of water could be just water being carried out after use or from splashout. I imagine your use is high with the spa being new. Bathing suits carry a lot of water when you exit...especially mens/boys. There is more evaporative water loss during the winter because of the dryness of the air.
I've never used bromine, but here's what I do know. Start with pH and TA in balance. You need a bromine bank to start with sodim bromide. Add enough bromine pucks in a floater and open wide enough to maintain a 3-5 ppm level. Shock once per week with non chlorine shock. After heavy use or if your bromine level zeros out, add a little dichlor to give it a boost. You should not have to add non chlorine shock after each use. If you feel you have to add something, use a little dichlor.
IMO, you are best off educating yourself about water chemistry as much as you can and buying a good test kit. The Taylor kits are often mentioned because they are good. Leslies rebrands Taylor kits so they are the same thing. There are some very knowlegable pool and spa store people, but many are not and sometimes you don't know what the real intention is because they are in the business of selling products. Experiment and learn but don't obsess. Just the fact that you are here indicates you are not just an average hot tubber and will get it sooner than later.
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Have you superchlorinated? The fact that you are having trouble getting a bromine level and the rashes indicate the possability of high sanitizer demand (bacteria). Superchlorinating will kill bugs and energize the bromine.
Follow iinstructions on chlorine bottle for superchlorination. Do it with cover open.
Jacuzzi wet tests thier spas. Sometime in summer when they are shipped across the country they are in very hot trucks and that stimulates the bacteria growth. Hence the need to superchlorinate.
After about a day, the chlorine will be gone and you all should have 3-5 ppm bromine and ready to soak.
so, lose a couple of more pounds and go for it. ;)
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--News flash--
First of all thanks to Jacuzzi Jim for his personal assistance--I really appreciate it.
Last night I added the "sodium bromicide" to create the bromine reserve. Still nothing is registering. I changed out the bromine tabs and opened up the floater a little further (with the tabs out--I realized it opened a tad bit more). I'll keep you all posted.
I'm still getting different results test strips vs. Taylor kit.
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At some point you may want to try a different brand of tablets or do 1 more large dose of sodium bromide the 2oz packet you have added may not have been enough if there is alot bacteria in there.
What brand chems did your dealer give you??
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Also IMO, at this point believe the kit.
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Spaz....
Sweet tub! Jacuzzi is making our J-365 AS WE SPEAK. It is supposed to be shipped next week, so we should probably get it the 2nd week of August. We were supposed to get it this week, so I'm a little jealous that you're hot tubbin' in yours! ;) Hey...how do you like the foot jets? We were not able to wet test one with foot jets, but I'm REALLY looking forward to trying those out. We did opt for the ozonator, and I'm going to go with Dichlor. From all the posts I've read, it just sounds like a simpler system to use. But I could be wrong....time will tell! Good luck....
-renee
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I won't get my tub for another 1 1/2 weeks (I Hope), but continue to try to understand all the water management issues. It's confusing. However, I found a water management document that explains what each component is and how it affects others (ie: how Total Alkalinity affects PH). This has been really helpful for reference. Maybe you all know the info, but since I have not seen any "complete" document to explain, I thought I would post.
http://www.d1spas.com/images/documents/01513-092ERevB-WaterCareGuideExportScreen.pdf
By the way spas, NICE tub. I cannot wait until I get my D1 Nautilus. My patio is ALMOST complete and since I had to wait for my tub anyway, I haven't had to rush and cut corners.
:o
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I won't get my tub for another 1 1/2 weeks (I Hope), but continue to try to understand all the water management issues. It's confusing. However, I found a water management document that explains what each component is and how it affects others (ie: how Total Alkalinity affects PH). This has been really helpful for reference. Maybe you all know the info, but since I have not seen any "complete" document to explain, I thought I would post.
http://www.d1spas.com/images/documents/01513-092ERevB-WaterCareGuideExportScreen.pdf
By the way spas, NICE tub. I cannot wait until I get my D1 Nautilus. My patio is ALMOST complete and since I had to wait for my tub anyway, I haven't had to rush and cut corners.
:o
Hey...thanks for that website! I just checked it out, and it does have great information! After reading it, I now I understand the effects of PH & Alkalinity. It's like a big puzzle...slowly but surely chemical care is all coming together, and hopefully I'll know what I'm doing by the time we get our tub in 7-10 days.
--renee
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--News flash--
First of all thanks to Jacuzzi Jim for his personal assistance--I really appreciate it.
Last night I added the "sodium bromicide" to create the bromine reserve. Still nothing is registering. I changed out the bromine tabs and opened up the floater a little further (with the tabs out--I realized it opened a tad bit more). I'll keep you all posted.
I'm still getting different results test strips vs. Taylor kit.
Spaz:
Just a thought on your water loss. You should not have to add water every soak. I add 10 - 15 gallons about once every 6 weeks in my HS Jetsetter. And we use it a bunch.
I had the same type problem. Check your tub drain. Mine for some reason was open very slightly and was causing water loss. Don't know how since I don't drain my tub using the drain, but check it anyway.
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Spaz....
Sweet tub! Jacuzzi is making our J-365 AS WE SPEAK. It is supposed to be shipped next week, so we should probably get it the 2nd week of August. We were supposed to get it this week, so I'm a little jealous that you're hot tubbin' in yours! ;) Hey...how do you like the foot jets? We were not able to wet test one with foot jets, but I'm REALLY looking forward to trying those out. We did opt for the ozonator, and I'm going to go with Dichlor. From all the posts I've read, it just sounds like a simpler system to use. But I could be wrong....time will tell! Good luck....
-renee
Don't be too jealous--we haven't spent that much time in our tub. The foot jets are awesome--that is one of the main reasons we picked this model. Great job on the ozonator--I'm going to see if that can be added after market.
We are presently using the Spa River Series chemicals. I don't know if anybody has heard of that. I believe that a lot of our chemical problems were due to water loss.
Make sure they check the water fall feature valve--ours was very loose. And thanks to Jacuzzi Jim's advise hopefully no more water loss will occur. ;D
I'll keep you all posted.
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Don't be too jealous--we haven't spent that much time in our tub. The foot jets are awesome--that is one of the main reasons we picked this model. Great job on the ozonator--I'm going to see if that can be added after market.
We are presently using the Spa River Series chemicals. I don't know if anybody has heard of that. I believe that a lot of our chemical problems were due to water loss.
Make sure they check the water fall feature valve--ours was very loose. And thanks to Jacuzzi Jim's advise hopefully no more water loss will occur. ;D
I'll keep you all posted.
My jacuzzi dealer said the ozonator could be added later. Sounded like a simple process. He actually tried talking me out of the ozonator and wanted me to use BaquaSpa. Reading the posts in this forum, though, helped me to decide to go with the ozonator and dichlor. Glad to hear you figured out your water loss problem, and that it was nothing major! Now you can spend time enjoying those foot jets! :)