Hot Tub Forum
Original => Hot Tub Forum => Topic started by: Cyn on July 26, 2007, 05:07:57 pm
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What is the difference between Total Chlorine and Free Chlorine? I am using a system that says you can not measure free chlorine with it, (and I certainly found that was true when the dealer misinformed me) but you need to measure total chlorine and I have had a reading between 5 and 10 total chlorine (on AquaChek 7 strips) for a week now without adding chemicals and just about daily use of the tub.
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Total chlorine (TC) is the difference between free chlorine (FC) and combined chlorine (CC) [TC=FC+CC].
FC is the chlorine that has not been used yet. It has not sanitized or oxidized anything. It should be measured 20 minutes after adding and you shoot for at least 3 PPM. FC doesn not smell.
CC is the used up chlorine. It has done it's job and is sitting there basically doing nothing. If it gets too high it will start to smell like chlorine. There are 2 ways to get rid of it - 1) get the FC reading to be 10x the CC reading & 2) which is the easiest IMO, use non chlorine shock (MPS) and have it do it's thing.
A good test kit (Taylor k-2005) can differentiate between FC & TC, with the difference being CC. I used to use cheaper kits but found exactly what you found, they can't measure the difference in chlorine.
Since you've gone a week and it is reading something, my belief is that you are measuring CC. Chlorine usually, unless you get chlorine lock, will disipate within a day or so.
BTW, it is a good idea to shock the tub with chlorine every so often just so you kill anything that may have survived the 3 PPM routine.
Hope this helps!
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Vinny--Thanks so much for your reply. Here is the website that describes the products and has the notation about not being able to measure the free chlorine. https://secure.newlead.net/apiwater.com/spaowners-starterkit.html
We literally, do to the misinformation from our Jacuzzi dealer, overdosed the chlorine at first because the normal test strips they gave us were for reading free chlorine and we would get an initial reading but then it would be gone almost immediately. The water appears clear with a sparkle and we used the OM product for a weekly shock as described last weekend, but did not add the extra chlorine since I was getting such a high reading for the total chlorine. Basically, when the dealer realized her mistake with this new-to-her product line, she said to just do what it says on the bottles and don't worry about a chlorine reading. I don't think so... And she did not have any strips to read the total chlorine to sell me.
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OK, guys, where is everyone???? ;) The website I had listed in my last post has an area that has questions and answers and it talks about how to 'read' their product in the tub water. Something about Hypochlorous Acid content in the water. I wanted to add that I tried to e-mail the company through that site and it was not put through...no link. I like the description of this system and we have the ozonater and Nature2 mineral sanitizer, but if I need to go back to what my dealer described as the old system with a lot more chemicals, I will.
I know that everyone is really tired of the new tub owners and their chemical questions, but maybe if we had dealers that actually taught us something we would have a better handle on things! :-/
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Cyn,
Some of us do have a life outside of this website! You asked a question and I did answer it. I don't get tired of answering questions and educating people who need it. I will get tired if the education becomes too repetative.
Get off the OM. It was too much reading for me and quite honestly - you don't need it. The problem can be at this point your water has whatever in it and needs a dump and refill. Get off the test strips and buy a Taylor kit.
All you need to do is:
- Adjust the PH and alkalinity - baking soda may work for both. If not baking soda for alkalinity up and soda ash for PH up. PH down works for both.
- Add calcium, if you want to.
- Add 3 PPM of FC after soaking and wait 20 minutes to test for it.
- If you don't soak for a few days, add 3 PPM chlorine as above.
- Rinse out filters often depending on use (soaking every day every week or 2) otherwise monthly.
- DON'T wash you suits if you use any. Let it air dry and if need be rinse in plain water.
That's it! Simply, easy and with a test kit easy to maintain. Some people add a Nature 2 stick.
The crap in the water may be affecting everything else.
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Education may seem repetitive to you, but you know what?? When they keep coming out with new systems to keep your spa water clean, clear and whatever ever the you-know-what it is supposed to be and the DEALER decides you, meaning me, are going to be the tester for this new line, there is no choice and we have no prior knowledge and whatever you have shared with others on line does NOT fit what we are using, so to me, I couldn't read prior postings and threads and get an answer to my questions. OK???? And YOU did not need to answer again if you have some great life to lead. YOU answered the first question based on not having all the info and I appologize, forgive me, the new guy, and when I added the web site and you decided it was too much for you, you could have just done your wonderful, exciting things and get off the internet. I didn't say you specifically after I wasn't getting a response so relax, big guy. You guys can be so touchy!!
What are you doing on-line anyway if you have not interest in helping????
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All of us here do it for free and I think I have helped many people over the years. Your questions have NOT gotten repetative yet. You are on that crap not any of us and I am trying to guide you off of it. Gentle nudge doesn't work - ONLY USE DICHLOR CHLORINE OR BROMINE and if all else fails then Baqua.
It is not our fault that YOU did not try to learn anything before YOU bought or better yet before YOU received YOUR tub. Yes you are a newbie but so were most of us. The internet was there before you purchased your tub - why didn't you ask questions of your dealer on which stuff you will be using and use the internet to research.
YOU come on here and want help, want us to read the stuff YOUR dealer said to use and tell you what to do. Read the " Where is everybody" garbage you posted. I don't have "some great life" but I do have a life and so do others.
I told you what to do AND most people use this simple system. Don't like chlorine than use bromine! Don't want to use either then have your dealer explain everything to you.
I will keep quiet from now on when I see you need help, maybe some of the others will chime in.
Good LucK!
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The santizer reads: Sodium Dichloro-s-triazinetrione, Dihydrate 99%. I was wrong to research my purchase, wet test, check out ratings and then buy?? I was promised by the dealer that someone would come out, which they did, and teach how to use the chemicals as they prepared our new water for our first swim. The guy that came out literally said, "Oh, I guess they want to start you on the new stuff. I don't know anything about this system, but it is supposed to require less chemicals." He reads the bottles quickly, puts some things in and says, "Read the instructions." We did, but as I already mentioned, the dealer moved us in the wrong direction and told us to add more and more of the above mentioned sanitzer. When I finally found the website (different name than the name on the product) after having no luck at all getting a free chlorine reading I went back to the dealer and she promised a call from her rep at the company that sold her the product. No call. She finally spoke with the guy and changed her whole story for how to treat the water. We did as the site stated and followed her directions, but needed the strip for total chlorine and she only sold strips for free chlorine and that was when she advised us not to test for chlorine and just follow the reps/website directions. Internet research BEFORE purchasing a tub only goes so far. AND please excuse those of us that didn't think, being human, that we needed to research the huge amount of ways of treating our water when we have not one clue as to what works and what doesn't. I guess you have all the answers in all the ares of your life that you hope to move into...oh, better research the net before you have your next kid and get all the facts on new ways to nurse bottle feed, make your own baby food. We trust the dealer to help us. Stupid, yes, maybe, but I had no reason to believe there would be a problem.
The where is everbody garbage, as you called it, was followed with a wink. I have been on this site trying to follow other's prolbems with their chemicals and questions and enjoying it. But everyone does seem to come out of the woodwork at certain times. Know what a wink means???? And YOU were the one that mentioned with no wink that you had a life outside this website. Funny, that statement means what??? Excust the fact that I seem to be on this website a lot, it means that I have a Blackberry with me at all times???? Maybe you should take a break from the advice it it annoys you so much.
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sorry about all the typos...I am upset. :'(
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I looked right over the " ;) " and I appologize about that.
Advice doesn't annoy me but certain people do! Asking people to help is one thing; asking to read a website and give advice is another. I (we?) would have to figure out that system. I (we) would be telling you what to do without knowing the problems it may create. I went on the website and as I said you don't need that system.
You have dichlor, so I would do a drain and refill and just use dichlor. If you have metals in the water, use metal out. Other than that you can take my advice or not, as I said Good Luck!
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Asking you to read the website was because it read like Greek to those of us who know nothing...so instead of copying everything (and I would think we would have to copy it all since we don't know what has a special meaning and what doesn't when it comes to total chlorine, free chlorine, etc., etc.). I didn't expect the Vinnys of the forum to answer it if was too much to expect of them to spend the time. So all you had to do was not answer. Or if you felt you HAD to answer, then you could have stated just that...I am not sure about your system and "would be telling you what to do wihtout knowing the problems it may create." How hard is that? Earlier you mentioned that "all of us do it for free"...what, you think this is some community service? Get a real volunteer job and mentor or be a CASA or help out in a hospital. This is a fun way for you to be involved in something you enjoy...know one will think you are a horrid person for not volunteering for 'free' in this forum. We are a group of people that are extremely fortunate to have this problem to begin with...
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Hey Cyn, let it go man.
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Wow. Cyn, you are picking on one of the good guys. Vinnie was trying to help you out.
I found lots of help here, but if you start with an attitude and are difficult to those that are trying to help then you will get no where. Calm down and people will be glad to help. No one is being paid here - this is volunteer forum.
Do a search for "Vermonter Method" and that should help.
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Hi Everybody--
I just want to say thank you to all of you. Everyone has an "opinion" about what works and what doesn't. Different environments, different water make up different tubs.
I appreciate everything everyone has told me. I have gained more knowledge but I am still by no means an expert.
At first, I thought managing this spa would be easy but it's not--it's a lot of work at first. But I do believe by this forum the more educated you get, the more opinions you receive the easier it gets--at least I hope that is true.
Hang in there Cyn--I'm going thru similar trials and tribulations but I just know it will all be worth it in the end.
And for all you other newbies out there--gain as much information as you can as there are a lot of experts on this site. I'm so glad I found it!!!!!! :) :) :) :) :) :) :)
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Hi Cyn
First, cool off. You bought that tub to relax, not to work yourself up to a heart attack.
I looked at that website. I've owed a tub for the last 13 years, using both bromide and dichlor systems, and that website confused me. I suspect that it is fairly simple, but why the hell they decided to rename all the chemicals, I will never know. I also don't think your dealer has done a good job with you. She has apparently pawned off this "new system" that apparently, she doesn't know from shinola. I would return that crap and ask for the basic Dichlor/MPS set up. (see below)
Assuming you want to use a chlorine based system (for hot tubs, its called dichlor - AND NEVER TRICHLOR), take webini's advise and read about the "Vermonter method" or "Vemont Style". Basically, once your water is initially balanced (pH, Alk, Calcuim), you only use two chemicals to maintain your tub. MPS (Monopersulfate, which is a non-chlorine oxidizer) after each use, and Dichlor (which is chlorine) to "shock" the tub once a week, or as needed. (When it smells, shock it). The dose for the MPS and the Dichlor is based on the size of your tub and usage, and can be measured by tablespoons for MPS, and teaspoons for the Dichlor once you figure out your tubs requirements. It is a very simple system and I promise it is easy once you get the hang of it.
As far as testing, stop using those damn strips and look into buying yourself a Taylor testing kit. Most of the time I can't read the strips anyway.
If you have trouble finding the Vermonter method here, go to http://www.rhtubs.com/bbs/FAQ.htm. There is an article in the FAQ. Print it out and read it a couple of times. There are a number of other good water care article there too.
I know this is confusing, and I know that you are afraid of damaging your new tub, but don't worry. You will get the hang of it.
Final advice: Don't yell at the good guys (ie: Vinny) :)
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Assuming you want to use a chlorine based system (for hot tubs, its called dichlor - AND NEVER TRICHLOR), take webini's advise and read about the "Vermonter method". Basically, once your water is initially balanced (pH, Alk, Calcuim), you only use two chemicals to maintain your tub. MPS (Monopersulfate, which is a non-chlorine oxidizer) after each use, and Dichlor (which is chlorine) to "shock" the tub once a week, or as needed.
Rich,
You got the Vermonter method backwards. He recommends dichlor post soak not mps.
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Your right, Chad. It was my Hot Spring dealer that tried to get me to use MPS after each soak. I forgot. Basically, I use Dichlor almost all the time now for the post-soak dose. I alternate the dichlor and MPS for shocking. Just found it works better for me and my water.
Cyn, I think its fair to say that you can use either of these chemicals in this way, but for your purposes in getting started, go with what the Vermonter Method recommends regardless of what my post said....sorry for the confusion.
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Thanks so much for the follow through and for checking out the website on my 'new' chemical regimen that was assigned to me by an uneducated dealer!! I will follow through with your suggestions. :) :) :)
Believe me, my intention was not to pick on Vinny. I was surprised that anyone would bother to answer a question on the forum when they really didn't want to. His first response was fine...it was when he decided that my asking someone to help me interpret the info on the product website was too much to ask. Why was it necessary to berate me? Even if he felt my request was just too much to ask of a free forum...that kills me...he didn't need to do anything at all but sit back and see if someone else was interested in helping me to find answers.
Thanks again!! I very much enjoy the forum or I wouldn't be here...I feel Vinny should take that advice.
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A quick look at the site shows the use of a granular bacteriacide which generally means the use of metals or enzymes to help kill bacteria (not sanitize). There are many product like this on the market and have been for years. If you want some good info on alternatives, look at Nature2, the Frog, the Natural, Eco One, Pristine Blue. Some of these are offered by Doc at rhtubs.com accompanied by good information there. This other site is seriously lacking details and information.
All these systems are registered bacteriacides which mean they work to kill bacteria. None of them are santitizers. There are only three...chlorine, bromine and biguanide. To truely santitize you need to use one of the three even if you use a bacteriacide. Now the product Cyn referenced seems to use chlorine with it, but I think there are more trusted "helpers" out there to research before making a decision.
The Vermonter method of sanitizing is a safe, easy and proven program. Chlorine is more forgiving and simpler to use than other methods. IMO it is easier for new users to get sanitizing under control with a good chlorine program and then can experiment with bromine or variations unless using a biguanide system.
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Cyn,
You are a newbie, using test strips and a system that I've never heard of before. What recommendations can I give to you? Put more product "A" in and see what happens?? You asked why you have so much total chlorine and I responded why according to my knowledge of water chemistry. Did you shock with MPS or 10x FC. Not knowing what the FC is doesn't help you at all. If you noticed none of the people who I know are dealers responded to you - it seems to me that the system is not popular.
Other people have answered you and they are trying to persuade you to use the Vermonter method as I was trying. My belief is you want us to solve your system problem and tell you how to run that system so you can go along happily ever after. WE are saying forget it but it seems you are hanging on to it.
I actually don't mind helping people an as a matter of fact I will go as far as test people's water for them when they have a problem. If they listen great, if not they are on their own.
Sorry if you don't like my response but I can't hand hold you over the internet.
I'm done!!!
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Total chlorine (TC) is the difference between free chlorine (FC) and combined chlorine (CC) [TC=FC+CC].
FC is the chlorine that has not been used yet. It has not sanitized or oxidized anything. It should be measured 20 minutes after adding and you shoot for at least 3 PPM. FC doesn not smell.
CC is the used up chlorine. It has done it's job and is sitting there basically doing nothing. If it gets too high it will start to smell like chlorine. There are 2 ways to get rid of it - 1) get the FC reading to be 10x the CC reading & 2) which is the easiest IMO, use non chlorine shock (MPS) and have it do it's thing.
A good test kit (Taylor k-2005) can differentiate between FC & TC, with the difference being CC. I used to use cheaper kits but found exactly what you found, they can't measure the difference in chlorine.
Since you've gone a week and it is reading something, my belief is that you are measuring CC. Chlorine usually, unless you get chlorine lock, will disipate within a day or so.
BTW, it is a good idea to shock the tub with chlorine every so often just so you kill anything that may have survived the 3 PPM routine.
Hope this helps!
Hey Vinny...
I think this is one of the best posts I've read in regards to chemicals! I'm trying to get this all figured out BEFORE our hot tub arrives in a couple of weeks so I know what the heck I'm doing. (And I'll also know if the dealer knows what he's talking about when they set me up!) When you explained the differences between FC, CC, & TC, a light bulb went off in my head....it actually makes sense now! Thanks for the time you give to this board to educate us "newbies". It is very much appreciated!
--renee
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Hey Vinny...
I think this is one of the best posts I've read in regards to chemicals! I'm trying to get this all figured out BEFORE our hot tub arrives in a couple of weeks so I know what the heck I'm doing. (And I'll also know if the dealer knows what he's talking about when they set me up!) When you explained the differences between FC, CC, & TC, a light bulb went off in my head....it actually makes sense now! Thanks for the time you give to this board to educate us "newbies". It is very much appreciated!
--renee
Renee,
Thanks! If you have any questions, I will try to answer what I can!
Vinny
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Vinny, you've got more patience than I do. You're a good man. Bill