Hot Tub Forum
Original => Hot Tub Forum => Topic started by: Nitrousman on July 11, 2007, 10:49:31 pm
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Hi everyone, I'm looking at used spas to replace my old 1990 Calspa. I found a Master Spas 1999 or 2000 FS 670 L 5 seater for $750 bucks that's been inside all it's life so the tub is in good shape except for a large chlorine stain in the seat where the owner left a large pile of chlorine sit for days. It also needs a cover. I can't find much info about this tub so I was wondering if anyone has/had one and could let me know if they're very good quality. The tub has all Balboa electronics and 29 jets. Thanks for any info.
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Nitrousman,
The 670L is a Freedom Spa. This is an old entry-line spa that we manufactured a few years ago. You can find details of this spa at www.freedomspas.us Please feel free to let me know if you have any further questions. Thanks.
Deron Hess
Master Spas, Inc.
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I already looked at that site and it really doesn't tell me anything about the quality of the older tubs.
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The stuff that's been posted here about Master isn't very flattering to their sales tatics and service. Since, you're going used that all might be a moot point.
The other big issue I've seen with master is the cabinet skirting. Once again, from what's being posted here, (search for "little tykes" ) it looks pretty bad. If your putting this out in the snow, then I'd be concerned.
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The tubs currently inside so the skirting is in good shape but I'll be putting it out on my deck so it will see some snow this year in Michigan. It's a wood panel gray skirting. Will the panels fall apart or is it a problem with it being poorly insulated? Thanks.
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My concern is that the tub is insulated using a "Thermal" method. This means that there is minimal to no convetional insualtion inside the cabinet. The tub is insulated by captureing the heat off the motors and heating the air in the cabinet. IF the air in the cabinet is equal to the desired water temp, there is not heat loss (see Thermal equilibrium).
This can work well, BUT the shell and the skirt need to be sealed up tightly, any gaps and leaks and you're pouring heat out of the cabinet. Master spas have been known to have really loose fitting skirts with huge gaps. Thermal style insualtion only works well if the the cabinet is tight.
Your old Cal Spa was insulated by putting foam fully around the pipes and tub. The Cabinet is fully foamed. Full foamed tubs insulate well, but if there's a leak in ther, it could be a mess (fortuanley most leaks occur by the pump). Your full foam spa is alos quieter, because sound and vibration is dampend by the foam. and the plumbing (specfically the pipes running around the spa) is also supported .
Vibration and sound may be an issue since it's on your deck. Vibrations from the Master spa will be louder. (also Thermal tubs require you to run the pumps several times a day to generate "Waste Heat" so the cabinet stays warm.) This tub is a bit differnt than what you had before.
I was going to say, since this is used, you could ask the folks what they were paying for electricty, but you mentioned they kept this baby inside. I bet you electrical cost for heating this will be 3X in the winter than your cal spa.
With any used tub consider you will probably need a new cover, and replace the filters as well.
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I believe this is what drewstar is referring to:
(http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b206/EastTexasSpa/DSC01171.jpg)
(http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b206/EastTexasSpa/DSC01177.jpg)
(http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b206/EastTexasSpa/DSC01176.jpg)
Terminator
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Is see what you guys mean now. So there's really not a good fix for this then is there? This MasterSpa is older and the sides are wood and I didn't notice the big gaps at the bottom but the insulation looked similar. I also have a guy locally that has a 2000 year CalSpa that everything works good but he says the skirting looks pretty weathered. The CalSpa is a 5-6 seater with 2 pump and says it has the Energy Saver 3000 controls but he says the wood surround should be replaced which is probably pretty easy. The bonus with the CalSpa is it's about the same size as my current CalSpa so I can use my 1.5 year old cover. My tub still works it's just a pain trying to keep it at a good temperature without the digital controls and the wood on mine looks like crap. Would I be better off with the 2000 CalSpa instead of the MasterSpa? Thanks again.
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Power wash the cedaron the Cal Spa and refinish it?
If the older Master is sealed up, it might be ok. It's hard to tell. We're talking about 7 year old used spas. What are you expectaions (cost to run, years of use, matience costs)?
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My current CalSpa is a 1990 with Redwood exterior that when my parents had it they never cleaned the wood or stained it so now the Redwood likes to crumble when you squeeze it. The 2000 CalSpa I'm going to look at tonight I think has Redwood exterior also but the panels come off with just a few screws where as my current tub the panels are part of the structure so there's no easy removel. I guess I could make my own panels and replace them on the 2000? Do you think the MasterSpa is going to cost more to heat in the winter than my current CalSpa? My current CalSpa probably costs me $60 to $80 a month in the winter to run. I really want something that has digital controls so I can set it at one temperature and not have to worry that when I go out to get in it at 10:00 at night that it's 120 degrees which has happened more than once or that it only 70 because the stupid timer got stuck 2 days ago and hasn't heated or filtered the tub and yes I've replaced the timer twice.
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$750 for a new Master spa is too much let alone a 7-year old one.
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I found a Master Spas 1999 or 2000 FS 670 L 5 seater for $750 bucks that's been inside all it's life so the tub is in good shape
Have you seen it running? If not you're simply moving it out of the way for the owner and hoping it won't be too much hassle or too costly to get/keep it running. If you don't see it running this isn't much better than all those cases of people getting "free" spas where they are really just taking a big boat anchor off somone's hands. Then again, sometimes there are great bargains out there on these nearly free spas so it's a crapshoot. While it may not be a favorite brand of many, if you see it running and it checks out fine its not a big gamble $wise. If you're only going on a promise of "it was running just fine before I unhooked it!" I'd say thanks but no thanks (unless you don't mind projects with undefinable outcomes).
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My current CalSpa probably costs me $60 to $80 a month in the winter to run. I really want something that has digital controls so I can set it at one temperature and not have to worry that when I go out to get in it at 10:00 at night that it's 120 degrees which has happened more than once or that it only 70 because the stupid timer got stuck 2 days ago and hasn't heated or filtered the tub and yes I've replaced the timer twice.
Wow. that's a lot. I bet your had the original cover on that? A tight good fitting cover will make a huge difference in any spa. This is complete conjecture, but I would guess that the old Master with a good cover would cost about the same as cal spa with a bad cover (assuming the master has a good tight skirt). if it's got holes then forgattaboutit.
You need a new tub.
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Have you seen it running? If not you're simply moving it out of the way for the owner and hoping it won't be too much hassle or too costly to get/keep it running. If you don't see it running this isn't much better than all those cases of people getting "free" spas where they are really just taking a big boat anchor off somone's hands. Then again, sometimes there are great bargains out there on these nearly free spas so it's a crapshoot. While it may not be a favorite brand of many, if you see it running and it checks out fine its not a big gamble $wise. If you're only going on a promise of "it was running just fine before I unhooked it!" I'd say thanks but no thanks (unless you don't mind projects with undefinable outcomes).
I've not seen either of them run yet but the one guy (MasterSpa) offered to fill it and run it before I buy it. The CalSpa I'm looking at tonight and I don't know if it has water in it now.
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Wow. that's a lot. I bet your had the original cover on that? A tight good fitting cover will make a huge difference in any spa. This is complete conjecture, but I would guess that the old Master with a good cover would cost about the same as cal spa with a bad cover (assuming the master has a good tight skirt). if it's got holes then forgattaboutit.
You need a new tub.
No I bought a new cover about 1.5 years ago when I hooked up the tub and it fits good. I just can't bring myself to spend $8000 plus dollars on a new tub since I could windup stuck with a new piece of crap like I keep reading about and most of the dealers in my area suck from what I've researched.
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I did look at another tub a few weeks ago that a spa repair shop had taken from a customer that didn't drain it completed before the winter and froze the manifold and cracked it. They replaced the manifold and water tested the tub with everything working good. They said it comes with a 90 day warranty. It's 98 or 99 Emerald Spa 6 seater no lounger that's 8x8 in size with Balboa digital electronics. I could probably get it for around $1200 and my cover would fit it. Sound like a better deal? How are Emerald Spas?
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Woudl they deliver it for that price? (that's a $500) Value. See if the would put a cover on it? A tub that has been looked over by pro with 90 day warrenty is better than a tub for same price from a stranger, no?
Emerald has the thermal insulation, so once again, cabinet integrity is important. But I can't speak to it's overall quality....
Sorry.
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I know at that price they won't throw in a cover since I already beat them down from $1800. The tub has the same measurements as my current tub so the cover I had should fit good. Now they said the tub is fully foamed but you say it's different? They had to chop all the foam out around the manifold to replace it and they didn't refoam it because they hate foamed tubs. It does have the 90 day warranty but it is also $450 more than the MasterSpa so which is really better if they're both insulated the same way? The 2000 CalSpa I'm looking at tonight is pretty cheap ($300) so I'm not expecting much but he describes it in great running shape with just needing the wood replaced due to fading so you never know.
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Woudl they deliver it for that price? (that's a $500) Value. See if the would put a cover on it? A tub that has been looked over by pro with 90 day warrenty is better than a tub for same price from a stranger, no?
Emerald has the thermal insulation, so once again, cabinet integrity is important. But I can't speak to it's overall quality....
Sorry.
They wanted a fee to deliver it but I have a trailer to move it on and they'll load it with a forklift.
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I'm not an expert on these spas. but Emerald spas are thermaly insualeted acrocring to thier website.
Insulation
Emerald Spa’s thermo pane engineered insulation systems offer three levels of thermal protection, enabling you to select the system that is best for your climate. All are engineered to trap air between two layers of high-density foam insulation and utilize the warmth created by the spa’s internal components to assist in thermal retention. You will maximize energy efficiency and minimize your cost-of-use with the Emerald Spa insulation system.
http://www.emeraldspa.com/features_and_options/insulation.html
Now they mention there are different levels of this thermal system, maybe the one they've got is heavy on the foam?
And fwiw, I'm not saying Thermal pane spas are a bad thing, just that they need to be done right to work, and it's a very important consideration. (Espically so for someone in MI, as opposed to someone in FL). MAsters have had issues with the skirts, but you saw the master and felt it was tight?Then ok.
I wish we had more folks chiming in...it's been slow around here. Plus, used tubs are such a crap shoot... but if I had 1K to spend, I'm thinking the dealer inspected tub for a grand is better than the master. (since they are both about the same age, and you have a cover to fit the dealer one). But thats just my guess. at least you could cry to the dealer if the thing really blew a gasget and he might have mercy on you, a private sale has no desire to ever see you again or ability to help you out.. Maybeget the dealer to toss in a filter? or match the price on the Master?
This is kinda like asking someone on the internet if you should by a used car. ;)
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OK I think I might have found the deal I've been waiting on. I've been emailing this lady back on fourth on a Caldera Geneva tub that she's trying to sell. Getting answers from her is like pulling teeth and she has never answered her phone. She finally sent her address which is really close to where my parents live. Well I've still not been able to get her to answer the phone but I was close by this evening so I stopped in but she wasn't home. Her kids were there and they said to go around the back of the house and look at it. To my surprise the tub is in great shape has a good cover with a lifter and everything. I can't tell what year it is but it can't be older than 2000 by some of the features it has. Looking at a picture of a new one they look almost identical except for the air handles look different. Her kids said the tub worked great but that they drained it a few years ago when their parents got divorced and it's just been sitting. I could get it for $600 bucks but the only problem is that it's in a bear of a place to remove it from. They like this multi-level deck and the deck was built around the tub. :-[ The only way I can see to remove it would be to remove the stair railing on one side and try to tip it on it's side up onto the staircase. The website says it weighs 920lbs for the 07 model so I'm guessing the older ones aren't much less since they look very similar. Nothing ever easy is it? I'm going to see if she'll let me fill it up with water tomorrow and run it. How do I get the air out of the system before I turn the pumps on? Are the Caldera Geneva's a good spa? Thanks.
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I have an 07 Geneva and so far I love it. But it's only been a month since I got it. But, It's got a good repuation, (One of the top spas in the Caldera Line) So for 600 bucks, I think it's worht a 2nd and third look.
To fill it here's what I do for the 07: NOTE: THIS iS all for an 07. I have no idea what the differences are in a 2000. Geneva.
Make sure the power is off.
Fill the spa by placing the hose into the filter well and making sure the diverters are in them middle position.
Fill the tub (just below the 4 nozzles in the corner estca seat) NOTE: I don't know if what the seat/jet configuration is for this year. CHAS is a Caldera dealer and might know.
Normally on a new spa, it's time to turn the power on and let the Geneva automaticlay turn on the air and jets pumps, however, since this spa is older and has been drained and shut down, you may have to prime the pumps. To prime the pumps: open up the union on top of the pump and let the air escape. Tighten it back up.
Once filled, turn on the power and wait 5 minutes. The Geneva will then turn the air on and the pumps. you should feel a stong stream from the jets.
After it does it thing for a few minutes you're all set.
Chas, does that sound OK for a 2000?
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Thanks for the info. I'm going to go back tonight and take another look at it to see what I can do to get it out. I'm not sure what this lady's deal is since I can not get her to call me back but I'll get an email with brief response like just the address. I'm assuming she's going to have the deck redone after I remove the tub but it would be nice to get her to talk to me. The last email I sent I told her I was coming tonight and I wanted to remove the tub on Sunday. I think maybe I'll just show up with my Sawzall and cut that entire side of the deck off to remove the tub. her son said the number she gave me was her home office phone that she never answers. Makes it hard to sell something when you don't answer it. >:(
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just be careful. Full foam spas are fantastic for energy efficneny, sound, structual support, but they can be a pain to repair if thery are leaks in the full foamed area. (Usually this isn't too much of a cocern, as most leaks occur in the equipment area and Caldera is a reputable comapny known for building quality spas, ) but this is a used spa, that sat unused for at least a couple of freezing winters. If they didn't drain it correctly there could be damage. That normally wouldn't occur in a spa kept filled and running. Ideally, it would be nice to fill this, and without raising any suspicion with the seller, be able to come back a few days later, and noticve the water level and look for signs of leaking. Or, get a 30 day money back guarentee for the spa not working or leaking. ????/
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I agree with your point Drewstar, but at $600 for a Caldera Geneva, I would personally take my chances. *Especially* if she'll let you take the subpanel as well, which it sounds like she may since she just wants to be rid of it. That is a phenomenal deal.
I moved my spa on its side down some stairs, it was a b itch, but we did it with 7 guys. Once you can carry it horizontal it's not bad at all, and if it's a long distance to the trailer you can use PVC pipes as rollers to save your backs. The hardest part sounds like it's going to be getting it up out of the deck insert.
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I've actually got a small picture of it sitting in the deck but I'm not sure how to post it. I made a few calls just out of curiosity to see what a tub place would charge to move it and they said from the description probably between $500-700 bucks OUCH! I think I'll take my chances and do it myself. This thing will have to go up stairs from the backyard and I don't even know if the stairs are wide enough. I need to check the other side of the house to see if I can get my trailer around the back of the house then I won't have to go up the stairs. Hopefully she's there so I can fill the tub and test it. If she doesn't care if I rip the deck apart it'll make it a lot easier.
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So I've been back to the house twice looking at how I can get the tub out of the deck and the lady was there and told me she's in forecloser and will be out of the house in august. She also said if she doesn't sell it she's taking it with her and I was like OK. She told me it was poping the breaker and that her friend thought it was just a bad breaker. So I told her I have a friend that's an electrician and he can change the breaker so we can test the tub. She's says that's fine so I told her I'll be back with him Saturday evening to which she says she'll be home by 7:00. So I head out to pick up my buddy and I call her cell number and she doesn't answer and it's after 7:00 so I wait 30 minutes and call her again and leave her a message saying we're on our way and that I have the electrician with me and I leave her my cell number again which she already has. We sat at her house for over an hour and she never showed up so now it's dark and we decide to leave and as we're leaving a car drives by slow as I pull out of the driveway but doesn't stop so I think maybe it's her so I call her cell again but no answer. I drop my buddy off and head home and as I pull into my my phone rings and it's her number so I answer it and it's the local sheriff calling from her phone. He wants to know what we were doing at her house so I tell him everything that happened and that we were there waiting for her so we could test the tub and that she knew we were coming and had all my numbers if she needed to contact me. He responds with "Well are you aware that the tub is no longer for sale?" I said no she never mentioned that to me when I talked to her earlier in the day. The cop says "she says she sent you an email to tell you". I said well I don't have 24/7 access to my email and she had both of my phone numbers so she could have just called me and told me that instead of wasting my freaking time. What a freaking nut job, no wonder she's divorced.
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Nitrous,
I'm not replying in order to talk you into the Master tub...like others have said in this thread, used tubs are a crap shoot. What I am replying for is to dispell the misinformation that is being given to you regarding Master and it's quality. As a 2004 LSX owner, I've had nothing but pleasure from my tub. My power bills are about $1/day for the tub. The plastic skirting is not offensive to me. I have no huge cracks between the skirting and the bottom of the tub as seen in the Hot Springs dealers' pictures. And I still don't understand what is seemingly offensive about the picture of the MS tub with the panel off...it looks just like mine except for mentioning that there is a sheet of styrofoam insulation that accompanies the skirting that must be removed to access the picture shown.
Good luck with your tub purchase.
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Well now I'm back to considering the Master Spa again so the added info helps. The guy with the Master Spa called me and he's willing to drop the price even more since after this week he'll no longer own the house and he really hates to just give it away so I'm probably looking at around $400 to $500 for the tub as it sits and he'll fill it for me so I can see it run. It's getting to the point where it's a hard deal to turn down for the price and I can always add more insulation. There's one other tub that I found over the weekend but they won't go less than $1800 for it. It's 2000 year 6-7 person Cal Spa that is in very nice condition. This one sits outside but the owner has stained it every year and just bought a new cover with lifter for it last December. This tub has the thunder jet in the middle with fiber optic lights and a lounger with somewhere around 40 jets. The owner said he replaced so seals and one of the pumps last year and the tub runs great and currently has water in it so I know it works. Someone said the Cal Spa's are hard to get parts for and hard to find someone to service them put I'm not sure about that. The Master Spa I know has all Balboa controls which seem to be the favored setup in Spa's but you guys could probably fill me in on that. I will need to buy a cover for the Master Spa so there's about a $1000 price difference when all is said and done. Anymore info on these 2 tubs would be great. Thanks again.
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I bet the woman who was selling the tub's divorce isn't final. She's trying to sell what ever she can for cash and hide it before they have to "split up the assests". The husband found out and called the sherrif.
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Nitrous,
I'm not replying in order to talk you into the Master tub...like others have said in this thread, used tubs are a crap shoot. What I am replying for is to dispell the misinformation that is being given to you regarding Master and it's quality. As a 2004 LSX owner, I've had nothing but pleasure from my tub. My power bills are about $1/day for the tub. The plastic skirting is not offensive to me. I have no huge cracks between the skirting and the bottom of the tub as seen in the Hot Springs dealers' pictures. And I still don't understand what is seemingly offensive about the picture of the MS tub with the panel off...it looks just like mine except for mentioning that there is a sheet of styrofoam insulation that accompanies the skirting that must be removed to access the picture shown.
Good luck with your tub purchase.
I wouldn't call it "misinformation" but more like differing opinions. Not everyone is a fan of Masters but Windy shows there are certainly some happy owners. You're looking at a used Master and at a very good price with the latest drop in price. Going the used spa route can be a good option sometimes and the price makes it a low risk move so I'd say go for it.
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She was already divorced and it was the latest fiance that bailed on her so she can't make the mortgage payment so she's getting evicted by the bank on August 10th. The fiance finally figured out she was a nut job and ran as fast as he could.
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I almost got a smokin' deal on an MG from a couple going through a divorce....what a mess.
Curious, is the Emerald from the dealer off the table?
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The dealer still has the emerald but I've kind of lost interest in it since the others seem to have a nicer layout for the jets and both are a year or 2 newer.
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OK I finally talked to the guy with the Master Spa and he said he won't go any lower than $600 for the tub and it would have to be gone by this weekend. I'm not so much worried about the fact that it lacks a little in the insulation area since after talking to the local spa repair shop they don't really like the fully foamed tubs for the fact that they make a huge mess when they have to fix a leak since you can never tell where the leak is coming from. They didn't really want to recommend any spa but they did say I could always just add bags of insulation to the Master Spa and seal up the panels with weather stripping. So if you figure in the cost of a cover that puts me around a $1000 bucks for the tub. So I'm looking at a $800 dollar difference between the Master and CalSpa and I think the CalSpa is a nicer looking spa with more jetting and fiber optic lights but the repair shop did say that the CalSpa is more difficult to get parts for and they are proprietary and the parts are more costly. Still looking I guess.....
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I wouldn't call it "misinformation" but more like differing opinions. Not everyone is a fan of Masters but Windy shows there are certainly some happy owners.
Thanks, tuo...I like your word choice better... 8-)
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No offense Wind S dog...but you have a completey differnent set of insualtion needs than Nitrous, no? Could you get any further away from Mi and still be in the continetal USA? Youre more Cuban than Wolverine ;)
:D
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Where's surfdog located?
I stopped by the repair shop yesterday with the Emerald spa which they still have and the owners daughter said he would probably take $1200 for it but they don't have a cover for it. The tubs in nice shape but it just doesn't have some of the features I want like foot jets. I'm alomost tempted to buy the guys Master Spa for $600 and turn around and sell it on EBay after watching some of the junk that sells on there. I'm still looking pretty seriously at the Cal Spa which I may go look at tonight.
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Where's surfdog located?
Southern FL.
It would be good to get some info from someone in a freezing area how the masters perform.
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I'll try a new topic for the Master winter use. Thanks.
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Sorry I've been away from the forum and didn't respond to this thread. Nitrous, I am in Florida (northern Florida panhandle) so my winter situation would certainly be much different than yours. Looks like you've gotten some good responses on your MS winter thread. I've always felt that the only major benefit of full foam in harsh winter environments would be for freezing temps without electricity for days/weeks on end. On the other hand, I believe TP tubs are better suited to warmer environments because of motor heat dissipation during hot summer environments. These are just my opinions, mind you, but certainly worth consideration. For economy, if you buy a tub that is poorly engineered, it makes no difference whether it is FF or TP. The same is true for well engineered tubs. In reality, though I purchased a TP tub, the insulation technique was not a factor in my purchase.
Good luck with your search.
And drewstar, the only time I'm more Cuban is when I'm in Key West... ;)