Hot Tub Forum
Original => Hot Tub Forum => Topic started by: Zep on March 19, 2007, 08:48:36 am
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[size=20]Hot tub lands in hot water[/size]
March 15, 2007
Condominium boards can sometimes be a pain.
Find a condo owner, and he or she likely has a story about bumping heads with condominium board members over some of the oddest things.
For instance, I once had a battle with my condo board about how powerful a light bulb I could legally use on my balcony.
To cut down on communal power bills, the board had a rule that limited such lighting to a mere 15 watts, making barbecuing at night a bit of a challenge.
When I flouted the law by installing an illegal 30-watt bulb, I received a written warning under my door to toe the line.
How someone could tell from ground level that my third-floor balcony light bulb was 15 watts brighter than allowable was beyond me, but there you go.
But my story is a blip on the annoyance Richter scale compared to what former soldier Bernie Robitaille just went through.
Robitaille landed in hot water with his condo association after he installed a six-person hot tub on the patio of his ground-floor river valley unit last summer.
He only did so after perusing his condo association bylaws and found that there was no ban on hot tubs. He applied for the appropriate permits from the city, had the installation inspected and figured he would have many great nights peacefully soaking in his tub.
As it turned out, the installation brought anything but peace. The condo board ordered him to remove it.
Robitaille, though, knows a thing or two about following rules and fighting for principles, having served with the Canadian Armed Forces. He decided to dig in for a skirmish.
"I served five years in the military defending the constitutional rights of Canadians, and I just figured I wasn't going to forfeit my rights to the whims of a couple of people on a condo board," said Robitaille.
The battle was on. The board hired a lawyer and Robitaille was forced to do the same.
The board's lawyer fired a few volleys at Robitaille, claiming the hot tub could be a hazard, might result in noise in the complex, could increase insurance premiums for the board and was unsightly.
It couldn't point to a specific condo association bylaw banning hot tubs, though, because, well, there wasn't one.
The board further attacked saying the tub could increase water bills for the whole complex.
Robitaille was forced into court to defend his tub. He won that fight but the condo board appealed the decision and Robitaille found himself in court this week.
In the midst of all of this, a neighbour wrote a letter complaining the smell of chlorine from the tub was bothering her and that the chlorine may have killed a nearby shrub.
Robitaille responded by having his tub's water tested against the city's H2O. The test showed the city's tap water contained more chlorine than that of the hot tub.
The final battle this week saw a Queen's Bench judge throw cold water on all the condo board's anti-tub arguments.
The judge found Robitaille had followed all the rules and was entitled to keep his hot tub.
The former soldier is relieved.
"I think it shows that people who get notices from condo boards don't have to just roll over and follow them if they've done their due diligence," said Robitaille, who was awarded some court costs but will likely still be out of pocket several thousand dollars for legal fees.
It seems to me this might be the perfect occasion for a celebratory hot tub party - a quiet one, of course.
http://www.edmontonsun.com/News/Columnists/Diotte_Kerry/2007/03/15/3755033.html
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Robitaille responded by having his tub's water tested against the city's H2O. The test showed the city's tap water contained more chlorine than that of the hot tub
Either he timed it right or uses Bromine :)
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I'm no lawyer here in the states much less Canada, but it seems to me that the condo association should be responsible for this gentleman's legal fees. Is he entitled to sue the HOA in order to collect his legal expenses? Doesn't seem right to me if he can't.
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I'm no lawyer here in the states much less Canada, but it seems to me that the condo association should be responsible for this gentleman's legal fees. Is he entitled to sue the HOA in order to collect his legal expenses? Doesn't seem right to me if he can't.
Wild guess here, but I'm guessing if you sue to condo ass. The fees goes up and all the other owners hate you and your tub gets filled with cement mix.
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Yet another good reason to avoid HOA's if possible...
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re: "Yet another good reason to avoid HOA's if possible..."
Personally I love mine because it upholds certain standards.
It can prevent alot of stuff certain neighborhoods don't want.
People before they move-in should closely examine HOA rules and if they don't like the rules then don't move there!
Mine prevents parking cars/boats/travel trailers/motorcycles day after day on the street in front of homes.
Prevents somebody from painting their house pink.
Prevents chain link fences.
Prevents garage conversions.
Prevents after market carports.
Prevents someone from cementing their front yard because they don't like mowing.
Prevents somone from placing a window on a 2nd story where they can peer down on my hot tub while I am soaking.
Ect...Ect....Ect.....
2EachHisOwn....but I love my HOA!
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I dealt with condo associations for almost 10 years...lemme just say that it was a HUGE pain in the arse. I tried hard to just keep to myself, but the neighbors (unit owners, as I was) would pick and pick and pick...and they wouldn't say anything to me about any problems, they'd go straight to the board (aka "MOMMY!!!"), file a complaint, whereas I'd get a nasty letter, threats of fines, etc...I realize some of the rules were meant to keep the neighborhood nice, but there's a fine line between keeping order and playing God....
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I had to deal with several when I was doing commercial pool service. Wow - what a hassle. Give me a good ol' management company or an individual anyday.
8-)
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I agree with the homeowner: I am glad to see the HOA forced to keep to the rules. I think the key to the character of the HOA is the kind of people that compose it's board of directors. The board of directors is elected by the membership. If the membership elects people who are very controlling and rigid, then that is the character of the board.
Now to my story: I am the president of our HOA board, and have been for the last four years. I got involved because I wanted the HOA to have the lightest possible impact on our neighborhood. We enforce the covenants, and we try to apply as much common sense as possible in interpreting the covenants. I have been fortunate that the majority of the board agrees with my philosophy. One reason we have been able to keep that philosophy going is that those who volunteered to run for election agree with me. However, it is difficult to get people involved. On every election we have had to have "second elections" because we have not been able to reach our quorum (25%) for an election.
I think the bottom line is that an HOA is another "government". You can see the rules before you buy. If you don't like the rules, don't buy in the development. If you don't like the way it is being run, do something to change it. Run for office and change the way it is governed. Change the covenants. Do something constructive instead of just complaining about it.
All that being said, my personal preference is for a neighborhood without covenants. However, I think we have been successful at walking the middle ground between letting "anything goes" and being so restrictive that we have "lawn police" out looking for paper on the lawn to write up "tickets".
Bill
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I think the bottom line is that an HOA is another "government". You can see the rules before you buy. If you don't like the rules, don't buy in the development.
Sounds good in theory, but most HOA covenants I have seen are about the size of a phone book for a large city! Nearly impossible to read and understand. These HOA hold all the power, they have an endless supply of money- usually with an attorney already on the payroll. Just my 2 cents
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Bill....thanks for the great post.
You are making me feel guilty!
I love my HOA, but I have not had the time to
get involved except paying my $50 a month dues.
(my HOA has not anywhere close to an "endless supply of money")
I am very appreciative of the work the board does in
trying to maintain high standards for our neighborhood.
My HOA seems to take the same approach as you do.
They are not intrusive or nagging, but like to gently
get homewoners to not act in a way that makes
home values deteriorate.
But like you say...whats great is....if you don't
like HOA then don't move into one.
IMO it's funny...because people that move into
one and then complain....don't seem to understand
that probably a big part of why they were attracted
to the neighborhood was because the HOA had
been maintaining high standards....then they move
in and want to start "building carports"!
My next goal is to live in a gated community, but
it's going to take a little more hard work to get there!
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Frazier did a great episode about HOA's
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Sounds good in theory, but most HOA covenants I have seen are about the size of a phone book for a large city! Nearly impossible to read and understand. These HOA hold all the power, they have an endless supply of money- usually with an attorney already on the payroll. Just my 2 cents
Sorry but that is an asinine statement, it does not matter if it is one page or ten thousand it is still your choice to move into the area. If you choose not to read it then it is your fault.
I would never move to a place that had a HOA, most of them would probably object to me shooting guns off the front porch.
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Zep, how many homeowners are in your association? Multiply that number by 50. That is the total amount of money collected every month... forever (or at least until the charter runs out). My guess is that would be a substantial number, much more than any one individual could dream to match...that is unless your loaded, in which case you wouldn't be living in an area that charges such a small amount every month.
I view HOA's as being similar to the ACLU, both started out as a great idea, but then a few extremists turn it into a virtual communist state. Again, just my 2 cents
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Zep, how many homeowners are in your association? Multiply that number
by 50. That is the total amount of money collected every month... forever
(or at least until the charter runs out).
Hotubinn....I would think there are about 90 homeowners in my home
owners association.
Which would equate to 54K a year if everyone pays, which doesn't happen,
but lets just pretend everyone does.
Thats really not a lot of money when you consider landscaping/mowing/flowers,
sprinklers, fountains, electric bills, water bills, security lighting, holiday lighting,
meetings/newsletters/phone directory, insurance, ect....
I mean it's not like there is tons of money left over to be dragging
people to court and I am not aware of any homeowner being sued
anyway. Legal fees in 2006 were $300 according to my HOA year
end report.
My guess is that would be a substantial number, much more than any one
individual could dream to match...
Lets again pretend....say that 15K of the 54 is surplus....which
is far from the truth....but for the sake of the argument....15K in legal fees
is almost nothing these days.[/color]
that is unless your loaded,
Well thats relative isn't it?
Loaded? Compared to who?
There are quite a few houses within this HOA in the 700-900K range
which in Dallas is a pretty nice crib. Yes I wish mine was in that range
but I ain't there yet....still working on it! ;)
in which case you wouldn't be living in an area that charges such a small
amount every month.
?
I view HOA's as being similar to the ACLU, both started out as a great
idea, but then a few extremists turn it into a virtual communist state.
Well that is not the case with my homeowners association
and I am very happy they are maintaining property values and keeping
"half wits" from placing Pink Flamingos and junk cars out in front of their
houses.
As far as the ACLU you are subject to their judicial wims being a citizen of
the United States but with a HOA you are free to not buy a house within a
HOA community and live across the street.
Again, just my 2 cents
Mine too!...Hey 2EachHisOwn.
Footnote:
My HOA publishes and accounts for every single cent of the 54K they receive
from the $600 dollars a year dues and there is not alot of money left over.
They have not raised dues in years and are very careful on money spent.
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Glad you have a good HOA Zep. Once you have a lawyer involved, the HOA doesn't need to have boat loads of money... they'll get theirs from the individual homeowner. If you think the following story is a rare occurance, search the net and you will find thousands more like it.
HOA battles dying woman over fees
A Gilbert homeowners association is moving to seize the home of a single mother with terminal breast cancer to recoup $1,000 in legal fees.
By Mary K. Reinhart
Article Courtesy of Arizona East Valley Tribune
October 7, 2003
And Gilbert Mayor Steve Berman is determined not to let it happen.
"It’s absolutely pathetic that someone is committed that this woman should die a homeless person over homeowners association fees," Berman said. "They really will look like the most heartless neighborhood in the country."
Evelyn Lyles, 44, fell behind in her bills last summer, including $40 monthly dues to the Western Skies Estates HOA, as she tried to work full time while undergoing radiation treatment and chemotherapy for recurring breast cancer.
But what began as a lawyer’s letter for $393 last November ballooned with late and legal fees into a $2,216 bill and a foreclosure action last month.
"It’s hard for me to believe that they took it this far," Lyles said. "I didn’t even know they had that type of power."
Guy Wolf, an Ahwatukee Foothills lawyer representing the association, said federal law prohibits him from discussing specific cases. He said association members also would not be permitted to comment.
But in general, he said, people may believe they have worked out a payment plan when there has been no such agreement. Or they may be paying, but not fast enough to work off the debt when late fees and legal fees are added.
"While they think they’re catching up on their dues, in fact they are getting further behind as the legal fees accrue," Wolf said. "In general, homeowners associations have the power to foreclose if the dues that are unpaid go unpaid for too long."
Lyles was trying to catch up on medical and other bills, and said she worked out a payment plan with her mortgage company. But when she offered to pay off the association balance of $393 last January, she said Wolf told her it was too late. With legal fees and late charges, she now owed more than $1,000.
Wolf told her he would file a complaint in South Mesa Justice Court and she could work out a payment plan, Lyles said.
"He said just pay as much as you can," she said.
The court document and her conversation with Wolf led her to believe she could pay off her balance with monthly payments of $55, or more when she could afford it.
A default judgment was made against Lyles for $1,046. Over the next several months, she made regular payments of $55 to $75. Lyles said the next thing she received was a foreclosure notice on Sept. 11.
"I had heard nothing from them, and they cashed my check every month," she said.
She borrowed money and paid Wolf $1,000 within a week, bringing her payments to the association for 2003 to about $1,800.
Court documents show a lien was placed against Lyles’ two-story home in July, but Lyles said she never received notice. That same month, she took out a loan to take her three children to Florida to watch her 14-year-old compete in a national track and field competition.
"If I had known this, I would’ve paid my fees. I wouldn’t have put my home in jeopardy," she said.
Lyles has responded to the foreclosure notice, disputing the $1,046 Wolf and the association claim she still owes and asking for an explanation of his legal fees.
"When this first started, I owed $363," Lyles said. "When I tried to make amends with (the association), all they kept doing was sending me letters from their lawyer."
Berman said he told Rep. Eddie Farnsworth, R-Gilbert, about Lyles’ situation, "and he was livid." Farnsworth last year sponsored legislation to rein in homeowners associations, including requiring that they wait at least seven years before seizing a home for unpaid dues.
"The nice thing would be if Mr. Wolf would drop his attorney’s fees," Berman said. "That would solve it immediately. It would just go away."
If Wolf refuses, Berman said neighbors could help pay the legal fees, or he could meet with the association.
"We’re not going to let her lose her house," he said. "We’re going to find some way to take care of this."
Lyles’ breast cancer, first detected when she was 27, was in remission for six years but has now spread to her spine, thorax and sternum. She told her three children last week.
She continues to work as a logistics analyst with MD Helicopters after daily radiation treatments. On Saturday, her 45th birthday, Lyles will participate in the Susan G. Komen Race for the Cure.
"I am terminal. My kids know that," she said. "That’s why I’m so adamant to do all I can for my kids now. So that when I’m gone, they won’t just fall apart."
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Maybe I need an HOA. Apparently lawns are fairly rare in Mexico, they think they are parking lots.
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I am 99% sure that if there were valid medical reasons or reasons of real need that they would work with someone that had been a good member of the HOA.
I believe the way my HOA handles deadbeats is they simply file a small claims case and place a lean on the house. Whenever the house is sold and the owner reaps the rewards of selling a house in a nice neighborhood the HOA gets the money it's legally owed.
It seems like I read in the newsletter that there are maybe 2 or 3 that fail to pay their dues every year.
My HOA are not "Nazis", they are elected members, they are my neighbors, people that have come together to work on maintaining property values and have a beautiful, safe community to reside and live.
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I've given consideration to buying out my sister's half of my mom's house in the hopefully distant future and I've already inquired about hot tubs and they mearly want to discuss the setup and approve it ahead of time. They probably have some guidelinesabout privacy walls, and it sounds like that could be cooperatively worked out.
Do your HOA's have guidelines about pets? I have three cats and they always stay indoors. I hate cat owners, at least urban ones, who think they need to let their cats out to run through their neighbors yards.
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re: "I've already inquired about hot tubs and they mearly want to discuss
the setup and approve it ahead of time"
I had to submit a request to the HOA about my new hot tub
about this time last year.
I sent them pictures of what it would look like and promised that it
would be professionally done.
They quickly approved my request and just reminded me to make sure all
city codes were followed.
They said they would come look after completion, but they never have.
Same thing with the new fence.....quick approval after showing plans.
They just do not want any "slop job" wooden fences going up that you
see where people do it themselves and it is all crooked, not stained,
and generally looks like hell.
re:"Do your HOA's have guidelines about pets?"
I don't have any pets so I am not sure, but I do not remember reading
anything about pets in the bi-laws.
Although I would hope there would be some type of restrictions on the
number of pets.
At my old house some half-wit had like 9 dogs in her backyard......gosh
the odor and the noise when they all started barking!
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I've given consideration to buying out my sister's half of my mom's house in the hopefully distant future and I've already inquired about hot tubs and they mearly want to discuss the setup and approve it ahead of time. They probably have some guidelinesabout privacy walls, and it sounds like that could be cooperatively worked out.
Do your HOA's have guidelines about pets? I have three cats and they always stay indoors. I hate cat owners, at least urban ones, who think they need to let their cats out to run through their neighbors yards.
I had 2 issues with the HOA in teh 4 yrs we lived in a condo:
1) I went in front of them to discuss a concrete pad (no spa plan at that time). I stated I was going to pour a pad and wanted to inform them. The lady dressed me down that I needed to do more than just inform them blah, blah, I needed plans blah, blah. All the while I sat patiently listen to her I had them right on the table I was sitting at but sat quietly as she merely read me a riot act. When she was done I handed her the plans and she looked at me and said "Why didn't you say you had these" to which I responded "you never gave me a chance, you immediately went into the mode of scolding me like a child without even finding out how prepared I was". It got approved.
2) The Pet part! A few months later they got a complaint from my neighbor that our cat roams around outside (imagine that, a cat that goes outside). This time she was nice to me so she calls me up and I stop over to discuss the issue. It clearly states in the by-laws that pets are to be indoors only and walked on a leash when outside. I said "I see other peoples cats outside often, have you informed them?". When she said no, there was no compalints relative to other people's cats I said "fine, the moment a letter is sent to ALL residents and it is enforced accross the board I will comply. Until then I won't be singled out because I live next door to a pain in the ass". The subject never arose again.
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Former soldeir Bernie Robitaille [of Edmonton] landed in hot water with his condo association after he installed a six-person hot tub on the patio of his ground-floor river valley unit last summer.
Bernie won his court battle, and is enjoying his hot tub. I just learned that the tub in question is an Arctic.
So of course, I got all excited and had to let everybody know. ;D