Hot Tub Forum
Original => Hot Tub Forum => Topic started by: sledjunkie on June 11, 2007, 06:52:02 pm
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After almost a year of using chlorine (Vermonter Method), I decided to switch to bromine.
I was completely happy with chlorine, I just wanted to try Bromine as I thought maybe it would easier to maintain.
Well it's been almost 2 months and I'm happy with the switch.
At first it took me a couple of soaks to get used to the new smell, but after that I didn't seem to notice it at all.
The bromine floater tablets last alot longer than I thought. My PH has been more stable than with chlorine also.
I shock with non-chlorine shock and an occasional super dose of chlorine.
It's nice not having to run the jets for 5 min after I get out. I'm sure this will be much nicer in the winter also.
Plus my wife likes the smell much better than chlorine so that's a plus.
For those who have not tried Bromine give it a shot, I'm glad I did.
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Yep both work well, just find the ones that best for you... :)
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With bromine tablets you need to be very diligent about checking the pH, the bromine tablets are very acidic will constantly draw the pH down. The low pH will have an affect of clear water and a lot of people will equate clear water as good water.
People that use bromine tablets will typically go through pump seals, heaters, PSI switches very fast.
I usually get people off them.
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People that use bromine tablets will typically go through pump seals, heaters, PSI switches very fast.
I usually get people off them.
Yikes, that is bad! Anyone else notice similar issues with bromine?
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So is all bromine the same, Gary? Will my Frog system do the same thing? Why would Marquis build it into their tubs if it was going to trash the parts. Also, I don't notice any problems keeping my pH stable.
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So is all bromine the same, Gary? Will my Frog system do the same thing? Why would Marquis build it into their tubs if it was going to trash the parts. Also, I don't notice any problems keeping my pH stable.
I thought the same thing when I first saw them but the bromine they are using is a little higher in the pH scale and the system does a much better job in dissolving the bromine.
A lot of the problems with the tablets is small chunks break off and get caught on the heater and seals, so until it dissolves you have a little piece of very acidic material eating at your parts, you have a low flow system and it makes it ever worse.
I added the Frog system to my old shell and after 6-months I am very pleased with it. The key is starting the spa off properly.
Also, Marquis uses better seals and heaters than a lot of manufactures so they are much more resistant to the chemicals (if you are a off with it).
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Just when you thought you heard it all you find out some stupid saleman somewhere actually is telling customers that bromine is bad because it will make you go through pump seals, heaters, PSI switches faster than other sanitizers.
My PH has been more stable than when I used chlorine.
I liked chlorine, but like bromine better
8-)
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Just when you thought you heard it all you find out some stupid saleman somewhere actually is telling customers that bromine is bad because it will make you go through pump seals, heaters, PSI switches faster than other sanitizers.
My PH has been more stable than when I used chlorine.
I liked chlorine, but like bromine better
8-)
Gary,
I thought you were in the service end. When did you get stupid and start selling spas?
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With bromine tablets you need to be very diligent about checking the pH, the bromine tablets are very acidic will constantly draw the pH down. The low pH will have an affect of clear water and a lot of people will equate clear water as good water.
People that use bromine tablets will typically go through pump seals, heaters, PSI switches very fast.
I usually get people off them.
I guess it is different in other parts of the country. Out here it is spas that use chlorine that go through PSI switches and pump seals very fast. I'm sure it is due to the fact that we have a LOT of calcium in our water. Chlorine with its high ph keeps the ph to high and the calcium comes out of suspention and forms as a solid on EVERYTHING. Seals go much faster out here with chlorine users than with bromine users.
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Here in Canada and back when I was selling spas, bromine users represented 70-80% of spa owners with a VERY high satisfaction. I disagree that bromine will effect heaters, etc moreso than chlorine as that wasn't my experience in 15+years. Maybe south of the border it's different?
I do agree that it is well worth the cost to get good bromine tabs (Spaguard) as the dept store brands do tend to break apart near the end and can effect levels. That said, this can also be an issure for lower quality chlorine tabs as well. Though bromine seems to be slightly more expensive at the till, they do tend to last much longer (slower dissolving) and therefore can be more cost effective in the long run.
I've found that chlorine (in general), has a more harsh smell and oxidizes more which causes burns on the bottom of the cover and pillows. Bromine is a slower dissolving product and the downfall would be heavy, continual use and relying too heavily on the floater. Bromine is a salt based system and is generally easier on the eyes and skin.
I've used bromine for many years without some of the "issues" mentioned here but maybe I'm just lucky... ;)
Steve
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I was using Brilliance bromine for a while. It's 100% bromine- no chlorine or other stuff, IIRC.
It's in "chunk" form- looks exactly like crushed chalk. It's dispensed thru a floater with a dial to adjust the
level of water passing thru the bromine compartment.
It's made by the same people who make Baqua, probalby as a last resort effort to keep the money flowing in on unsatisfied Baqua users.
That's exactly how I got on the stuff.
Not sure why, but when I was using it, some of the plastic surfaces in my spa, like the jet faces, and the weir gate assembly got this brownish stain on them.
It scrubbed off easily enough, but kept coming back. Now that I'm on dichlor, no more stains, and my Ph and alk reading are more stable. With the Brilliance, I was constantly having to boost Ph and alk.
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With bromine tablets you need to be very diligent about checking the pH, the bromine tablets are very acidic will constantly draw the pH down. The low pH will have an affect of clear water and a lot of people will equate clear water as good water.
People that use bromine tablets will typically go through pump seals, heaters, PSI switches very fast.
I usually get people off them.
Glad I'm not the only person that thought this post to be assinine as well as ignorant. Then of course he qualifies this drivel with "Marquis uses better seals..." Marquis manufactures their own pumps? Another example of the abundance of misinformation here.
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I am waitinig for my Cameo and ask, without trying to cause trouble, what is the effect of bromine or chlorine on us? Is the exposure harmful and is better than the other?
If I google bromine oin spas, I see some disturbing allegations, are these alarmists?
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Glad I'm not the only person that thought this post to be assinine as well as ignorant. Then of course he qualifies this drivel with "Marquis uses better seals..." Marquis manufactures their own pumps? Another example of the abundance of misinformation here.
Just a wee bit harsh don't ya think? I don't always agree with Gary (or others) but he's here to offer advice and for the most part, I find his information useful.
If there's "an abundance of misinformation" here, why are you here? :-X
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My PH has been more stable than when I used chlorine.
I liked chlorine, but like bromine better
8-)
There is no possible way that pH is more stable with bromine than with dichlor. If it is, it has nothing to do with the sanitizer. Bromine has a very low pH as does non chlorine shock, if that is what you use to shock. Dichlor is nearly neutral. If the pH is not constantly drifting down, then it is because of something else in the water.
Chlorine works well for those who are daily soakers because you are always adding. For those who soak less often, bromine may be a better alternative. Bromine users may want to consider shocking with liquid chlorine or bleach which has a high pH to offset the low pH of bromine.
I have also heard of bromine being harder on equipment, though this may be more about pH and users not keeping the water in balance.
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Is the exposure harmful and is better than the other?
If I google bromine oin spas, I see some disturbing allegations, are these alarmists?
Very alarmist, IMHO. Both are in common use among millions of people. If there truly was a risk, and maybe there is, it's gotta be minimal.
Funny how sometimes we dwell upon things like this and completely ignore the things that are REALLY risky- like using tobacco and living the lifestyle that contributes to heart disese, etc.
I really think that researchers could tie any substance to harm if they tried hard enough. And sometimes, they are just plain wrong. Like the sacharine scare.
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I guess ya'll did not read my first post, I stated you will need to be more diligent with the Ph and bromine has a lower pH.
If you are good at keeping in check you will be fine.
But from what I have seen through the years is the lower pH will keep the water clear and people will equate clear water with good water so they are not diligent with the pH!
I still stand by what I stated, people who use bromine tablets will go through more seals, heaters... any service person who has been in this business for quite sometime will tell you that.
Oh and I am so sorry that Marquis uses Viton seals, Incoloy 825 heaters... so their components are more chemical resistant.
Before jumping downs someones throat you should read the entire post.
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Bromine users may want to consider shocking with liquid chlorine or bleach which has a high pH to offset the low pH of bromine.
That's a SCARY recommendation and something I would NEVER do personally! :o
With all this talk about pH, what everyone is missing here is the effect of Alkalinity. Regardless of your choice of sanitizer, Alk should be tested and adjusted monthly to prevent pH drifting and bounce. It has nothing to do with adding a product that has super high pH, is dangerous, hard on the spa (often it can void a warranty), difficult to measure and has countless negative effects on other readings all in an effort to counteract bromine. That would be extremely unwise Tony and I'm amazed you suggested that.
Steve
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I guess ya'll did not read my first post, I stated you will need to be more diligent with the Ph and bromine has a lower pH.
If you are good at keeping in check you will be fine.
But from what I have seen through the years is the lower pH will keep the water clear and people will equate clear water with good water so they are not diligent with the pH!
I still stand by what I stated, people who use bromine tablets will go through more seals, heaters... any service person who has been in this business for quite sometime will tell you that.
Oh and I am so sorry that Marquis uses Viton seals, Incoloy 825 heaters... so their components are more chemical resistant.
Before jumping downs someones throat you should read the entire post.
Ummm, I did read the entire post, even quoted it, and I still say it's misinformation. You never answered the question; Marquis manufactures it's own pumps?? Viton seals? as opposed to what seals? More chemical resistant? than what?
Sorry if I sounded harsh but this is the type of salespeak pap that permeates this board on occassion.
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I've never heard that low pH will keep the water clear and I would love a more in depth explanation of this as I truly don't understand the relationship.
The fact remains that people who don't test alk and pH on a regular basis nor understand what regular watercare is, will eventually experience low alk and pH and therefore negatively effect their pump seals, heater elements, etc. than someone who does. I could care less what the sanitizer of choice is...
Steve
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Ummm, I did read the entire post, even quoted it, and I still say it's misinformation. You never answered the question; Marquis manufactures it's own pumps?? Viton seals? as opposed to what seals? More chemical resistant? than what?
Sorry if I sounded harsh but this is the type of salespeak pap that permeates this board on occassion.
I guess you missed that part where I only mentioned Marquis to answer Bonnibelle concerns.
Viton® fluoroelastomer is the most specified fluoroelastomer, well known for its excellent (400°F/200°C) heat resistance. Viton® offers excellent resistance to aggressive fuels and chemicals and has worldwide ISO 9000 and ISO/TS 16949 registration.
We've developed many types of Viton® to meet specific end-use and processing needs. There are differences between types of Viton® in terms of chemical resistance and mechanical properties.
Whether your application is automotive, chemical processing or any number of other industrial applications, there is a particular type of Viton® that best meets your specific performance requirements. The general purpose types differ primarily from the specialty types in chemical resistance. In the specialty family, the choice is among four types that are tailored for superior fluid resistance, low-temperature performance or combinations of these properties. In order to ensure product integrity and compliance to OSHA 1910.119 in finished parts made of Viton®, our seal helps guarantee that the parts you receive are made from 100% virgin Viton® from DuPont Performance Elastomers
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Metal Suppliers Online: Material Property Data
Super Alloy Incoloy 825 (tm)
Specifications
Related Tradenames and Metal Names
Chemistry Data
Welding, Machining/ General Data
Physical Data
Mechanical Data
Links to Related Data
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Specifications
The following specifications cover Super Alloy Incoloy 825 (tm)
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Property Results
Related Metals:
Cabvalloy alloy 825 (tm)
Nickelvac 825 (tm)
Nicrofer 4221 (tm)
Sanicro 41 (tm)
VLX825 (tm)
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Chemistry Data : [top]
Aluminum 0.2 max
Carbon 0.05 max
Chromium 19.5 - 23.5
Copper 1.5 - 3
Iron Balance
Manganese 1 max
Molybdenum 2.5 - 3.5
Nickel 38 - 46
Phosphorus 0.03 max
Silicon 0.5 max
Sulphur 0.03 max
Titanium 0.6 - 1.2
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Principal Design Features An austenitic nickel-iron-chromium alloy with additions of other alloying elements to enhance resistance to chemical corrosion.
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Applications Chemical process equipment, pickling, acid production piping and vessels.
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I imagine that Gary only mentioned Marquis because I specifically asked about my tub and why Marquis would build a bromine system into their tubs if it would cause problems. It is very obvious that he has serviced hot tubs long enough to confidently make a comment like that. I don't think it is because he is hoping that Marquis will offer him a sales job... ;D Correct me if I am wrong, but aren't there disclaimers on many of the tub warranties regarding proper water care? So if you weren't diligent in maintaining your pH and water balance, couldn't you possibly be in danger of voiding your warranty?? so wouldn't this bromine information be valuable to all of us? :-/
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OK, Gary, you're a bit quicker on the draw than me!! ;D ;D
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Correct me if I am wrong, but aren't there disclaimers on many of the tub warranties regarding proper water care? So if you weren't diligent in maintaining your pH and water balance, couldn't you possibly be in danger of voiding your warranty?? so wouldn't this bromine information be valuable to all of us? :-/
It's true that in many warranties, there is a subsection stating this type of disclaimer but the concern is attempting to clearly determine this. Without a history of watercare analysis, how could anyone clearly come to this conclusion? It's very difficult to prove and I've never seen a manufacturer not warranty an item because of it. It lacks teeth but it does motivate the end user to more diligently look after their water!
Steve
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Well, that sure is a lot of copying and pasting there Gary. I still see no answer. Are Marquis pumps propietary? What manufacturer do they use? Do any other spa manufacturers use these pumps with this type seal? If so, how would that make Marquis any more resistant?
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Since Marquis has added a Bromine system to their tubs, it would be in their best interest to provide this information to assure that the bromine isn't going to cause problems. Who knows if it is available for all the other tub manufacturers. Hope today is your day off, Gary, you'll be copying information (that has nothing to do with my initial question) all day long.... ;D ;D ;)
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I have also heard of bromine being harder on equipment, though this may be more about pH and users not keeping the water in balance.
Tony nailed it here. Many people use bromine in the following way. they just stick the floater in and think that is all they need to do. It is not the bromine; it is user error.
The brown stain that has been mentioned is actually traces of bromine. It is a brown element.
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People that use bromine tablets will typically go through pump seals, heaters, PSI switches very fast.
I usually get people off them.
This is the post that the pump question refers to Bonnibelle, it came before you posted and has nothing to do with his response to you.
I don't expect a cogent answer anytime soon, so I wont belabor the point. Have a nice day.
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This is the post that the pump question refers to Bonnibelle, it came before you posted and has nothing to do with his response to you.
I don't expect a cogent answer anytime soon, so I wont belabor the point. Have a nice day.
You posted the bottom half of his post only. In the top half Gary talks about PH and that was what led to his statements which you posted.
"With bromine tablets you need to be very diligent about checking the pH, the bromine tablets are very acidic will constantly draw the pH down. The low pH will have an affect of clear water and a lot of people will equate clear water as good water."
Everyone needs to monitor PH/Alk but my interpretation of his post was that use of Bromine makes this even more critical. In my experience bromine is often chosen by people because they feel it is less time consuming and maybe SOME (not necessarily the people who are reading this ;)) will be less apt to take the time to monitor their PH/Alk compared to the average chlorine user who add chems per use.
Maybe it would have been best if he had added something like:
"People that use bromine tablets AND DO NOT REGULATE THEIR PH/ALK will typically go through pump seals, heaters, PSI switches very fast."
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So anyway like I was saying I'm happy with my switch to bromine and recommend anyone who always wondered if they should do so to give it a try.
The reason for the switch is I was sick of always having to worry about dosing my hot tub every other day.
And let me tell you it's much nicer not having to do that!!!
Oh and regardless of which one you choose you need to keep your PH in check.. duhhh!
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I sell Brilliance for Spas line of spa chemicals. They claim to have the only Ph neutral bromine. Also it is 100% chlorine free which is a benefit. Not all bromine is chlorine free, read the label carefully. Bromine tablets generally have a percentage of chlorine in them.
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Bromine tablets generally have a percentage of chlorine in them.
About 25% or so on many tabs I do believe. Many times I've pointed that out to people who want to use Bromine tabs to "avoid use of chlorine" and since its a slow release form the chlorine will be there at a more constant level.
While each have their own proponents, either way works fine!
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I wonder how much, if any, that effects the readings for chlorine/bromine on the new digital tester?. Currently I multiply x 2.2 to convert the reading to bromine. If both are present how do you translate the readings?
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With all this talk about pH, what everyone is missing here is the effect of Alkalinity. Regardless of your choice of sanitizer, Alk should be tested and adjusted monthly to prevent pH drifting and bounce. It has nothing to do with adding a product that has super high pH, is dangerous, hard on the spa (often it can void a warranty), difficult to measure and has countless negative effects on other readings all in an effort to counteract bromine.
Steve
I don't disagree. ;) There is no substitute to educating yourself and understanding your water chemistry.
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I still stand by what I stated, people who use bromine tablets will go through more seals, heaters... any service person who has been in this business for quite sometime will tell you that.
I now use dichlor with my new tub, but used bromine (in a floater!!) for over 11 years with my 93 HS Prodigy. Other than one stiff diverter valve and a heater element at about 8 years, I never had a seal, pump, or anything else go. So, FWIW, my personal experience says otherwise. I would still be using a bromine floater in my new tub if my dealer had not threatened me with excommunication if I did. ;D
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I am a 2 1/2 year bromine user and I must say, I too feel that some of the info here may be more personal than fact. However, everyone is entitled to thier own opinion. Just for the record, I have yet to have any of the issues of what Gary suggests with my hardware.
Also I have to say that I am dilligent with water, and I have only had to adjust the ph once since I have had the hot tub. I will however, suggest FROM MY PERSONAL EXPIERENCES, that the bromine use tends to drop my alkalinity. I add 2 capfulls of arctics perfect balance every week to keep the alk level up.
Also if I could add. I travel alot and spend several weeks in Europe every fall on vacations. I love the convienance of bromine because it affords me the opportunity to travel without concerns. What I do is shock the hell out of it the day I am leaving and fill the bromine dispenser and turn the dial to a slow release. I come home every time without any water issues.
I ALSO USE DISPOSABLE FILTERS, BUT THOUGHT THAT I WOULD ADD THIS TO GET A RISE OUT OF ANNE. How are you doing Anne
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I now use dichlor with my new tub, but used bromine (in a floater!!) for over 11 years with my 93 HS Prodigy. Other than one stiff diverter valve and a heater element at about 8 years, I never had a seal, pump, or anything else go. So, FWIW, my personal experience says otherwise. I would still be using a bromine floater in my new tub if my dealer had not threatened me with excommunication if I did. ;D
Rich, so do you prefer using chlorine over bromine so far? Would you consider switching back to bromine in the future?
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Rich, so do you prefer using chlorine over bromine so far? Would you consider switching back to bromine in the future?
Gombo, I will probably stay with the dichlor. I like the idea of dosing after a soak and not having a chemical smell the next time I go in. With Bromine, there was usually a smell (usually not bad) but this is better, I think.