Hot Tub Forum
Brand Specific Forums => Hot Spring Spas => Topic started by: SRay on October 03, 2016, 04:43:00 pm
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Hello All,
I am hoping that there is someone here who's enough of an expert - perhaps a hot tub tech or seller, or just an educated owner - who can answer for me definitively whether what I want to do is possible of not. I've been searching on the internet for days and have even contacted parts suppliers and Watkins (the HotSprings manufacturer), but people understandably don't to endorse anything that differs from the original manufacturer's specs.
I've got a 2014 Hotsprings Grandee NXT which I absolutely LOVE for except one thing: In the cooler weather, the heater simply cannot keep up. The other night we were in it for about 2 hours on a 55 degree evening. We started off at 99 degrees but we wanted it hotter so I immediately turned it up to 104 and waited for it to get warmer but it never did. I even used the override trick to set it to 106, but after 2 hours it was still at 99. Last Autumn we would start off at 104 on say a 45 degree night, and it would lose 1 or 2 degrees per hour. Forget it when it's even colder, it's just very quickly unusable. I live in NY and would like to use my tub in the winter when it's 30 degrees outside.
The heater is a 4K running at 230 volts on a 50 amp breaker, I believe it's the Watkins 76228. I got that part # from visiting hottubspasupplies.com, so I can't guarantee it's accurate. I called Watkins customer service directly but they couldn't answer it!
So my question is this, can I install a 6K heater - the Watkins 76227 - and will it work without breaking my tub or its electronics? I realize that I may need to replace my 50 amp breaker with a 60 amp one, providing that my wiring is of a sufficient gauge to handle it. I also know that authorized dealers and part suppliers don't want to recommend anything that isn't approved by Watkins, but at this point I don't care. I'm not afraid of voiding my warranty, I just want a HOT hot tub in the cold weather!
And lastly, perhaps the more important question is this: will a 6K heater solve my issue as I believe it will? Autumn is here, and winter is coming, and I would love to use my hot tub in the cold weather.
Thank you all in advance for your help!
Ray
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Ray,
Welcome to the forum! There are a lot of people here who know more about HS than I do. While 55 is still relatively warm, sometimes it easier to turn the hottub up close the lid and come back an hour later. Its hard to get the tub to warm up with the lid open, especially with a big tub like the grandee.
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I am no HS heater expert, but if you set it at 106 and it was still at 99 2 hours later, going to a higher KW heater probably won't matter. Either something in the settings is wrong, bad temp sensor maybe or your heater is not working properly. It's under warranty so I would first contact the dealer and see what they say.
On a side note, how do you sit in a hot tub for 2 hours? :o
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I did inquire about this a few years ago for a customer who used their Grandee for extended soaks in the winter and the end result was you are stuck with the 4kw heater.
It may be worth trying a very small dose of a good quality evaporation prevention liquid such as Cover Free from Natural Chemistry. Not sure if anyone else would want to chime in on this suggestion. I am thinking 10 ml - 15 ml weekly dosage.
Porter
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On a side note, how do you sit in a hot tub for 2 hours? :o
By myself never, but easy when you have a few friends over and some cocktails!
I did inquire about this a few years ago for a customer who used their Grandee for extended soaks in the winter and the end result was you are stuck with the 4kw heater.
Thank you for the reply, and yes, I understand that that is the "OFFICIAL" HotSprings orthodoxy, I've heard the same from them and at least one supplier, however it appears that there are people out there with other models and brands who've upgraded heaters and breakers against the manufacturer's guidelines and had success.
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The spa is full foam insulated so it is designed to hold heat and in my opinion is the best form of insulation. When you open the spa cover you are now losing heat and battling ambient temperature. Two hours with the cover open will result in heat loss which is normal. When you are in the spa with it running you are making the heater work harder to come up to temperature because it is now battling ambient temperature. If you have a thermos with hot coffee and one has a cover and one doesn't which once is going to get cold faster? The heater is more then adequate even in the cold winters of NY. My suggestion would be to make sure you have the temperature set higher before you get into it. It will rise in temperature much faster with the cover closed and when you are in it the spa should maintain temperature just like it maintained the 99 degrees you had it set at when you got in it. Just my two cents..
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You can talk to your plumber about installing a heat exchanger that runs off your home heating system.
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Two hours with the cover open will result in heat loss which is normal. When you are in the spa with it running you are making the heater work harder to come up to temperature because it is now battling ambient temperature.... The heater is more then adequate even in the cold winters of NY. My suggestion would be to make sure you have the temperature set higher before you get into it. It will rise in temperature much faster with the cover closed and when you are in it the spa should maintain temperature just like it maintained the 99 degrees you had it set at when you got in it. Just my two cents..
Thank you for your input and for taking the time to reply. Yes I know all of that. And I HAVE had it set on other evenings to 104 before I got in, but no, the heater in not adequate to maintain that temperature even in the not frigid outdoor temperature of 45-55 degrees. It will easily lose 1-2 degrees per hour.
I had a HotSprings Grandee spa back in the late 80's when there was no 104 degree limit, and it would maintain its temperature even when it was 15 degrees outside. That is not an exaggeration. The truth is that Watkins/Hotsprings makes a 6k heater (as opposed to my 4k) for a reason. And the reason is that a 6k heater will indeed maintain the temperature better. It's just that the Grandee was designed to not draw too much amperage while both the heater and the jets are on. Other models are designed to have either the heater on or the jets on, but not both. My house and wiring can handle the extra amperage and I would like to have that 6k heater in my Grandee.
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You'd need to upgrade your electrical to go to the 6K heater. The spas where the 6K is utilized (Jetsetter NXT) they use the 30 amp breaker. Your 4K heater runs on the 20amp. In the Grandee, the heater stays on when the jets are on. Only on Hotspring 110V spas does the heater kick off when jets are on.
You'd void your warranty if you change it.
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Quote: I even used the override trick to set it to 106 :Quote
What? How is this done? Does it hurt the tub at all? I would love to get a little higher than 104. I have a 2016 Hot Springs Prodigy.
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When adjusting temperature in the temp menu, once you get to 104, hold down the temperature up button for roughly 3-4 seconds, and it will climb to 105 and change colors (to red) Do that again to change it to 106.
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You can easily install the 6KW. Two thing you need to know:
1. Even the six KW can only raise the temperature under the right conditions: usually the lid closed, jets off, or at the least no cold breeze. It can usually <i>hold</i>the temp.
2. The control system can run the 6KW, but you must change to a 30 amp gfci breaker where you now have a 20A. That usually means an increase in wire size. Very important! Equally important: you need to power the subpanel with a 60A breaker where you now have a 50A. In many installations, the wire size may remain the same between 50 and 60, but <b>not all!</b> Have a licensed electrician do the math and see if you may need to pull larger wire from the main panel to the sub panel.
Bonus: be sure something isn't wrong with the program jumpers. Check that you heater is, in fact, running when you think it is. Open the IQ box, look for the "heater on" LED, even when both jet pumps are running. If not, a jumper change will fix.
Heater is $380 and the breaker is $200+
(Plus shipping)
8)
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Thank you SO much Chas for the clear, concise, and knowledgeable answer! That's EXACTLY the kind of information that I was hoping to find when I posted.
I've had my electrician look at my setup. My wiring to the subpanel is good since I went for overkill during the original installation and have #6 gauge there. I've pulled new wire from the tub to the subpanel for the 20 amp breaker, upgrading from #12 to #10. So now all I need are the new breakers and a 6K heater is ready to install!
I understand the price for the heater, but "the breaker is $200+"? Really?
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Alrighty - got my heater upgraded to 6K last month and BOY what a difference it makes!
Had the spa going for 4 hours last week in 36 degree weather and it held a steady 104 degrees the entire time. Before the upgrade, it would not have been able to do that in even 50 degree weather! Then the other night when we had TWENTY degrees outside I decided to have a soak just to see how it would hold up and it did not lose even one degree in over 40 minutes. Woo Hoo! I finally get to enjoy my tub throughout the winter!
My HotSpring dealer contacted Watkins and they gave their blessings so long as the wiring and circuit breaker changes outlined in Chas' post were followed. So I took care of the wiring and my dealer installed the sub panel breaker and the upgrade and all is great.
So to clear up some of what was previously discussed here:
1) There was nothing wrong with the tub except that Grandee's are sold under-powered for cold weather.
2) A 6K heater makes a tremendous difference.
3) You can upgrade your heater and keep your warranty.
Finally regarding why Grandees are sold with inadequate heaters, my only guess is that maybe HotSpring doesn't want to scare people away with a tub that draws so much power and needs a 60 amp breaker and #6 gauge wire - which I needed between the main electric panel and the sub panel.
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Finally regarding why Grandees are sold with inadequate heaters, my only guess is that maybe HotSpring doesn't want to scare people away with a tub that draws so much power and needs a 60 amp breaker and #6 gauge wire - which I needed between the main electric panel and the sub panel.
Either that or they are made in Ca? Good work Chas.
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It's awesome that you were able to do what you wanted. Enjoy your upgraded Grandee. :)
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It is awesome you got it the way you want it.
The part I can’t figure out is why you weren’t building heat when it was in the 40’s. We have a Caldara Geneva also built by Watkins and it is 50 amp with a 20/30 subpanel and I’m pretty sure the 20 is the heat side.
We live in northern PA and we got as low as -30f last year and the tub maintained temp. we were not in it those nights but often are in it in the single digits. Over the weekend we were in about an hour with the water temp at 103 and it was 10f outside and it lost no water temp.
All’s well that ends well though. I have about a 50’ run to the subpanel #6 and then 16’ #8 to the tub. I wonder what your lengths were and if the old wire was dropping some voltage for you?
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Great posts, thanks for sharing your solution!
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some great info here -- I also own a 2013 grandee and find that for extended soaks in cold weather, the 4kw heater is insufficient. the 30A side runs the jets, and since Watkins is greatly motivated to use inexpensive, readily available 50A hot tub disconnects, the 4KW heater is used. they wanted to stay at 50A to keep things simple, electrically, but there's no reason one can't wire it up for use with the watkins 6kw heater.
I'm grateful for the info shared here, and it's exactly right: put in the watkins heater, make sure the wire sizes are sufficient, make sure your sub panel is rated for at least 60A, and all the applicable electrical codes are met, and voila. I would only add that the wiring TO the sub-panel needs to be sufficient as well. for example, in my last house I had a 100A subpanel and 100A rated wires from the meter. I could have easily wired my grandee for the 30A heater.
the standard sales talk and under-informed will say that it won't make a difference but they fail to realize that a 50% increase in power to heating the water is a tremendous noticeable difference. I'm going to upgrade mine when I get a chance!
great idea and thanks again for posting.
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At what point will most hot tubs have difficulty maintaining temps? It has been getting brutally cold here in MA and I went into my tub last night with outside temps in the high 20's. My tub was set at 100 and it maintained that temp for the 25 minutes I was in it.
I did turn the temp to 103 but the temp never made it above 100 while I was in it. So it appeared that 28 degrees or so is a good starting point for temps that make it hard for my hot tub to heat the water beyond the current temp.
Just curious. I have a Marquis Promise two pump spa.
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I haven’t only once or twice turned the temp up when I was in the tub. I have had guests that asked for it to be dropped a degree or two when we were in. If it is 10 f outside and I want to take a soak after dinner and I know the tub is on 101 I turn it up to 103 at least an hour or two prior to getting in. My Caldera has had no problem holding 103 for the length of my soak at zero F and it is just a 20amp heat source. Asking it to warm the water with the cover off and the jets going is a much larger job IMO and at zero outside I would expect if I got in 100f water it would still be 100f when I got out regardless what I changed the setting to. Maintaining is much different than maintaining and raising the temp at the same time.
I judge my tubs ability to hold water temp without adding much heat by watching the cover and the outside. I have never seen any sign of snow melting on top or any such heat loos out the sides. I think 20 amps is more than enough for any well insulated tub to maintain any temp well below zero F outside. We have been in the tub when it was sub zero out and to be honest at that temp if the tub is 104 and with a stocking cap on 15 to 20 minutes is a nice soak time. If it did drop to 103 during that time I wouldn’t notice. Now if it is a nice calm night 32f and the tub is 102 with friends we have soaked for a couple hours before with people getting in and out a few times.
For me with anticipation I don’t think I need more power and we live in one of the coldest places in the country. It is great the OP found a solution that works for him as well.
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At what point will most hot tubs have difficulty maintaining temps? It has been getting brutally cold here in MA and I went into my tub last night with outside temps in the high 20's. My tub was set at 100 and it maintained that temp for the 25 minutes I was in it.
I did turn the temp to 103 but the temp never made it above 100 while I was in it. So it appeared that 28 degrees or so is a good starting point for temps that make it hard for my hot tub to heat the water beyond the current temp.
Just curious. I have a Marquis Promise two pump spa.
I keep my Marquis Resort at 102 and it maintains it in the cold weather. If I turn it up the temp doesn't rise on it until I shut the cover.