Prior to purchasing a Hot Tub if you have Tendonitis, Arthritis, soft tissue injuries etc get a prescription from your Doctor for Hydro Therapy ( A Hot Tub). In most jurisdictions you can write off the entire purchase or at least the taxes. Check with your accountant.
In the euphoria and excitement,
But it seems to me that the most important element "patience" needs to be added. Impulse buying on somthing like a hot tub can be very dissapointing. In the final analysis, you need to take your time and get educated on hot tub and WET TEST, a lot.
Great post. ;D
New here, and I have a question,
Where does Dimension 1 fit within the Price/Quality standard.
I live very close to the factory and we have an outlet store here. ...
Looking at the Sojourn HP Model Specifically, want the 4 seats and no lounges
Hey ZZ
I'd like to know who rates the hottubs and where did you get that info on the best or top 6 hottubs? Spahappy 8)
There was nothing wrong with ZZ's list. Mine are always Sundance, Hot Spring, Jacuzzi, Caldera, Marquis and Beachcomber. His were the same with Dynasty and Master added. Why question why he doesn't include the spa you back/like/own; he isn't slighting anyone by their omission. I have no issue with him saying Dynasty and Master are top makers. The fact I don't include them (or Coleman) doesn't mean I am against them.
Sometimes I think a more important list is one that includes spas that you DON"T recommend. For instance, due to quality issues and customer service concerns experienced by TOO MANY past/current owners I recommend people think twice about buying Cal Spas and Thermospas. I also warn others that cheap spas from big box stores often end up being nothing more than cheap spas (rather than that great buy they think they're getting).
Well I'm a Coleman owner and I love it. I have the C480 Deluxe (no lounge seat, 6 seater, 430 gallons) and have had it for 1 month now. I had a very old CalSpa that rotted away from a leak and I am just so impressed with today's technology in spas. My old spa had 4 jets and now I have 41. I am sold on thermopane design and believe that Coleman (MAXX) is making a "bullet proof" spa. The filtration system is amazing. I open my cover and see nothing but crystal clear water with no debris laying on the bottom. I do have one issue that I hope will be resolved soon though. I was unable to wet test this spa and have noticed that the top jets in the 2 deluxe bucket seats with the neck collars do not exert much pressure. These jets are designed for the neck area and this is the one spot that I had hoped to get the necessary pressure. They are only putting out about half the pressure as the jets directly below them. I have inquired to MAXX directly and they say that this should not be happening. They believe I might have a kink in one of my lines so i have placed a service call to my dealer to investigate. Other than that, my only complaint is that I have some dry skin lately as I've been putting alot of time in my spa. My energy bill is also doing much better now. I'd say this spa probably cost me $15 dollars to run this last month. I do live in sunny and smoggy California though so don't have to fret too much about cold winters. I have found out that my old CalSpa was costing me over $80 a month. Of course it was very old. Luckily, I only had to upgrade my 220 breakers from 40 amp to 50. I can't believe what electricians charge to run 220. Highway robbery. :) So all you future buyers, do yourself a favor and check out the Coleman product also.
Ok, add Coleman to the list of spas that aren't available within 75 miles of me! For a town of a million people, I thought we had all the dealers. Maybe I should open a store and sell Beachcomber, Coleman, and LA spas. Naw, I'd rather open a Buffalo Wild Wings restaurant. I doubt if combining them would work, You could be served wings in a spa. Nope, not a good idea. :-X
. I am sold on thermopane design and believe that Coleman (MAXX) is making a "bullet proof" spa.
The more I read I have come to believe that the thermopane system has some inherent problems.
Reading from posts of repair people they seem to point to the following problems:
1. that the plumbing is not fixed in ridged foam allowing the plumbing to move, vibrating over time and resulting in leaks.
2, The operation of the pumps and jets are much noisier owing to the lack of insulation making it more difficult to have a conversation when in operation.
3. The thermal capabilities of air are not the equal to full foam resulting in higher costs of operation especially in cold climates.
I should also point out to be fair that if you do have a leak in a full foamed tub it is much more difficult to repair, however from all the posts I have read this does not seem to be a problem that happens often. This is not the case for tubs that are not full foamed.
It pays to do your home work!
I claim to be no expert in spa design. I have heard both sides of the "religious war" on full foam vs. thermopane and it is my humble opinion that you will see more and more companies changing from full foam to thermopane in the future. The full foam advocates talk about how the thermopane pipes are more prone to leak and how they are noisier spas but I have not heard about leaks in thermopane design yet. I have read many forums and no complaints yet from thermopane owners. Also, my spa is very quiet with no rattling noise at all.
Of course, it is a very new spa and only time will tell what holds for the future.
The one thing I did like about Coleman's design is it's all metal frame. No wood at all.
Honestly, I believe full foam and wood framing is in it's last days (give it a couple of years) of doing business. I also believe that full foam's primary design and function is to bolster a cheaply made shell. Too many companies spend too much on marketing and not enough on construction and the previously ignorant spa buying public are now onto this mismanagement of money. Hotsprings, among others are overpriced for their construction value. You're paying for all that wonderful Watkins advertising.
There I started the war all over again, let me have it ZZ.
Full foam is not quieter in my showroom. A Jacuzzi j-365 is much louder than a c-480 deluxe Iam sitting next to them right now. As far as efficency I removed a Coleman 447 and put a Jacuzzi Premium J-360 (last year) and my electric bill went up. I have also seen leaks in both spas. As a service guy for ten years I have seen leaks in many spas and Coleman is easier to fix (less foam to dig) however most leaks are caused by improper water chemistry eating at the silicone not the plumbing flexing. The majority of the leaks I have seen are at the seal against the shell not at a glued plumbing joint. The biggest down side to a Coleman is not the insullation, or concieved lack thereof it is the seating. If you fit it is the most comfortable spa I have ever been in, if you do not, well than what good is strong jets, a steel frame, thermo barrier insulator, abs pan bottom. In the end wet test, wet test, wet test. Know what you are buying, a good warranty and a local dealer is better than buying a top 5 brand that is to far away from you to service your needs. The consumer does not deal with Coleman or Jacuzzi or Hot springs or Brand X it is with their local dealer who represents the product and deals with all the warranty issues.
Re Full Foam vs Thermopane
If you like your mice dry roasted it is a great design. It might be good for dehydrating meat and fruit, any one for some rodent Jerky? Oh yeah I almost forgot . . .you can keep your towels warm.
ps: You folks in sunny Florida might want to ignore some of this rant as us Northern folks just don't have your kind of weather.
Regards Zz
I love our kind of northern weather. Nothing like sitting in a tub dead of winter with snow sprinkling down. :D
Do not use Armorall it has been reported to destroy the stitching on the cover and you will find Black Magic to be very oily which will attact dirt.
It is the silicone in Armorall which attracts the dust. Not the oils!
I just have to jump in here. Before I start, it's great to hear from Superted and Rick! This board needs more Coleman Spa owners/dealers, ect. on line.
I’ve been selling Coleman Spas since 1994 in North Dakota. Yes that is right above South Dakota, and we are not the end of the earth!! However on a clear day if you stand on you car you can see it from here. Sorry, a little N.D humor.
Zz you are so right in your observation comparing our house insulation to the insulation in spas. We make our houses more efficient by putting insulation on our walls and attic. We install air tight windows and put high efficiency furnaces inside to heat our homes. This seals cold air out and warm air in… This is what Coleman’s Thermo Lock technology does. They start be spraying 2 to 4 inches of high density foam on the spa shell. The tubs have a solid ABS pan bottom with 1 ¼” polystyrene bead board over that. The beadboard has a lining of reflectex. Reflectex is a silver reflective foil that will reflect radiant heat from the spa’s plumbing and equipment back up onto the spa shell. The cabinets are maintenance free Duramax, which is mounted on ABS board for strength than attached to the 1 ¼” poly-beadboard and lined with the reflectex. Coleman recaptures all of the heat generated by the equipment because we have a sealed, insulated, heated, dead air space all the way around the shell of the tub. Just like the technology in a house we seal cold air out and warm air in.
The whole hype on the board about needing full foam to support plumbing is not at all true. First of all if that were the case, why would Coleman have a 5 year plumbing warranty? They would go broke fixing all the leaks. Second, take a full foam tub like Sundance. (I’m not picking on Sundance I think they have a good product!) look at the space they have their equipment in. What you will see is plumbing coming from the foam and into the equipment this is totally not supported in that part of the spa. How does that work?
The Thermo Lock also insulates the equipment noise. When we do tradeshows and fairs I always check out the competition, our spas are always quieter than full foam spa’s.
My spa is outside on the northwest side of my house with nothing around it. The winters here are cold!!! And long, it snowed two nights ago May 25th. My spa runs me around 25.00 to 30.00 in the coldest winter months, and we use our spa all winter long.
Here are some websites to check out on foam insulation.
http://www.eere.energy.gov/consumerinfo/refbriefs/ed3.html
http://www.buyersinspectionservice.com/faq-insul-allabout.html
Spahappy
Additionally, the pumps have operated flawlessly. If the manufacturer who's spa you buy is built this way, you can be assured that they will take the time to use equipment that works in a warmer environment :o
Nobody can tell you how to negotiate for the purchase of your spa, dazedandconfused. It all comes down to the dealer and you. If you don't like the price the dealer is offering, try making a counter offer, and go from there. They may stick to their price because they are offering you their best price.
Best thing to do is shop around, see what comparable spas are going for in your area, and not get too hung up on price.
If you make a reasonable (from the dealers perspective) offer it will be accepted.
There are way more important factors to consider when buying a spa. Believe me, once you have your tub up and running, you QUICKLY forget about what you paid for it.
Beachcomber 550x
(http://www.beachcomberhottubs.com/images/htpic_550x.gif)
80x88x38
360 US Gallons
650lbs dry, 3655 lbs wet
And the point is.... ??????
Re Full Foam vs Thermopane
It makes absolutely NO sense to not support the plumbing lines with a little or no insulation in a Thermopane design.
This mister idea seems like a good idea for climates that don't have real high relative humidity. It would be less than worthless here in South Florida, unfortunately, because of our very humid climate. :-(
People need to think about the appropriateness of this type of thing for their environment.
Regards,
Bill
Um Bill;I'm not convinced of that...
You just displayed the classic American ignorance of Canadian geography. Vancouver is on the ocean too, the Pacific ocean. It is humid on the west coast near the ocean too y'know..
I'm not convinced of that...
I haven't had the pleasure of living in Vancouver but I've lived on the coast in New Jersey, the coast of California and in the Florida Keys and I'd say there was a whole lot more relative humidity in Jersey than in California and that didn't even compare to the relative humidity of Florida.
I just have to jump in here. Before I start, it's great to hear from Superted and Rick! This board needs more Coleman Spa owners/dealers, ect. on line.
I’ve been selling Coleman Spas since 1994 in North Dakota. Yes that is right above South Dakota, and we are not the end of the earth!! However on a clear day if you stand on you car you can see it from here. Sorry, a little N.D humor.
Zz you are so right in your observation comparing our house insulation to the insulation in spas. We make our houses more efficient by putting insulation on our walls and attic. We install air tight windows and put high efficiency furnaces inside to heat our homes. This seals cold air out and warm air in… This is what Coleman’s Thermo Lock technology does. They start be spraying 2 to 4 inches of high density foam on the spa shell. The tubs have a solid ABS pan bottom with 1 ¼” polystyrene bead board over that. The beadboard has a lining of reflectex. Reflectex is a silver reflective foil that will reflect radiant heat from the spa’s plumbing and equipment back up onto the spa shell. The cabinets are maintenance free Duramax, which is mounted on ABS board for strength than attached to the 1 ¼” poly-beadboard and lined with the reflectex. Coleman recaptures all of the heat generated by the equipment because we have a sealed, insulated, heated, dead air space all the way around the shell of the tub. Just like the technology in a house we seal cold air out and warm air in.
The whole hype on the board about needing full foam to support plumbing is not at all true. First of all if that were the case, why would Coleman have a 5 year plumbing warranty? They would go broke fixing all the leaks. Second, take a full foam tub like Sundance. (I’m not picking on Sundance I think they have a good product!) look at the space they have their equipment in. What you will see is plumbing coming from the foam and into the equipment this is totally not supported in that part of the spa. How does that work?
The Thermo Lock also insulates the equipment noise. When we do tradeshows and fairs I always check out the competition, our spas are always quieter than full foam spa’s.
My spa is outside on the northwest side of my house with nothing around it. The winters here are cold!!! And long, it snowed two nights ago May 25th. My spa runs me around 25.00 to 30.00 in the coldest winter months, and we use our spa all winter long.
Here are some websites to check out on foam insulation.
http://www.eere.energy.gov/consumerinfo/refbriefs/ed3.html
http://www.buyersinspectionservice.com/faq-insul-allabout.html
Spahappy
Spa Happy is our North Dakota Coleman dealer.
She is very informative on Coleman products.
Thank You Zz!
Spahappy
Here’s my Idea of a perfect spa; 20-30 jets, good foot and neck jets, two pumps, simple heater, good filtration, constant sanitation, fairly open seating but with different levels and very quiet – oh, yes very, very quiet. I don't care if it has a stereo, and a TV - I don't want them! Heck, I don't even care if it has pillows; I want a spa that I don't have to work on to keep up! All I want is something I my backyard that I can get away from the world and wind down! BTW, I don't want the option of calling from the airport to turn up my heater; I want it to always be ready so I don't have to remember to "Schedule" my relaxation and I don’t want all of the conveniences of the office in my spa, that’s what I’m winding down from!
This quote is from Stuart Cyrano - a very wise and informed poster.
ZzTop
AH!! CYRANO !!!!
Now I remember !!!
Hmm.. You never did give me that $5 you owe me.. ;) ;) ;)
Great Zz! You blow my cover and cost me 5 bucks! And to think I was trying to find a way to pay you for the compliment....
Well Stuart I guess I will have to cover the $5.00, unfortunately it will be Canadian.
Keep up the great postings
Regards, Zz
you can keep you money - I don't want to have to figure "oot' the exchange rate anyway.
Just remember buddy,
it's your fault that I'm here in the first place. I still remember an odd email from you introducing yourself and this site and inviting me in. I have spent many a sleepless night reading and posting since (but it keeps me abreast of the industry!? So for that you can keep you money - I don't want to have to figure "oot' the exchange rate anyway.
Well Stuart I am just happy you are posting here. I'll invest the five bucks and see if we can't double it!
I put the five on the lotto 649 . . . We lost!
Better be careful when giving me compliments the Master spa guys will put you in the hole they say I'm digging for myself! Afterall with my lack of reputation and all how can you say that I know what I'm talking about? ;D
Bump! For those of you in the shopping/negotiating stage
ZZtop, you're only informed from a biased slant here. You chose to take that slant as you are probably a full foam owner too. Yet you go to great lengths to talk down thermopane technology. You must have owned them before to make such opinionated statements.
Just wondering, what brands of spas have you owned over your life?
I on the other hand, am a minority voice on this board. That's ok, because in a way this has become a "semi-cause" for me as it irks the hell out of me, day after day, to see this bias run rampant on this board. It only serves to disserve the spa buying public who come here.
All of the biased rant is heresay and untrue in my opinion.
I too, owned a full foam spa, ignorant of it's technology until the great leak started. I too, took it upon myself to research and find out more about what I was getting into before slapping down $8000 for a new tub.
My conclusions differ from yours. That's cool.
A full foam tub works. We know that. The thermpane technology is newer and comes in a variety of forms. In my research, I learned that my electric bill would not be higher by going with a thermopane. I also learned that if/when my spa leaks, it will be much easier to fix than a full foam. I learned that metal framing is available now to. I know from experience, that a wood frame will not last when exposed to a leak over time. So I knew what I wanted. I found what I wanted from Coleman. All you full foam forum members can lambast these technologies all you want. That's your right. But I will also take it upon myself to counterpoint your bias so that the spa shopping public does not get misled.
Good day to you sir.
ZZ, good to see you are back. You will see that I have been trying to lobby for you to win an award for the post that has the most reads. 10 000 is not that far away. I must say I did feel slighted when I was ommitted from the thankyous. Maybe when you get your award I will be mentioned. ;)
Underthestars! Why bump? This got so off topic by page 3 and by page six was just a way for regulars to up their post count.
OOPS I guess thats what I just did ;)
ZZtop, you're only informed from a biased slant here. You chose to take that slant as you are probably a full foam owner too. Yet you go to great lengths to talk down thermopane technology. You must have owned them before to make such opinionated statements.
Just wondering, what brands of spas have you owned over your life?
I on the other hand, am a minority voice on this board. That's ok, because in a way this has become a "semi-cause" for me as it irks the hell out of me, day after day, to see this bias run rampant on this board. It only serves to disserve the spa buying public who come here.
All of the biased rant is heresay and untrue in my opinion.
I too, owned a full foam spa, ignorant of it's technology until the great leak started. I too, took it upon myself to research and find out more about what I was getting into before slapping down $8000 for a new tub.
My conclusions differ from yours. That's cool.
A full foam tub works. We know that. The thermpane technology is newer and comes in a variety of forms. In my research, I learned that my electric bill would not be higher by going with a thermopane. I also learned that if/when my spa leaks, it will be much easier to fix than a full foam. I learned that metal framing is available now to. I know from experience, that a wood frame will not last when exposed to a leak over time. So I knew what I wanted. I found what I wanted from Coleman. All you full foam forum members can lambast these technologies all you want. That's your right. But I will also take it upon myself to counterpoint your bias so that the spa shopping public does not get misled.
Good day to you sir.
I don't have heat creep issues either. I live in warm and sunny Fresno, CA and keep the thermostat at 98 for the summer and it is 98 every time I get in.
I should have put a caveat in my claim on heat creeping. I have 3 modes of operation in my spa, Standard, Economy and Sleep. In Standard mode the heater and low pump 1 can kick in at any given moment. I have found on hot days that my temp can get a bit above the temp that is set. I set my spa to Economy mode which means that the heater will only kick in during my filter cycles. But I wonder even if the heater has turned on much at all over the summer. Like your well insulated spa, mine too retains the heat that is produced very well. I suspect that my heater doesn't get much use at all until I refill.
"And where in my previous posts did I state that pressure treated wood will not last when exposed to water? I have no idea what kind of wood my old CalSpa had. Never claimed it was pressure treated. All that I claimed is that this wood that Cal Spa used got rotten from exposure to a leak.
Your nickname rhymes with Brain, too bad you don't use yours that often.
" Cal Spa didn't villify me,
you sell both what? What specific brands?
If you try to tell me that you have a full foam spa that is quieter than my Coleman, I'll bet you, and you will lose.
I listened to all the big players, all the full foam ones, Hotspring, D1, Sundance, Master, Marquis, and none of them were quieter than the Coleman, on either the low pump setting or the high.
I don't have heat creep issues either. I live in warm and sunny Fresno, CA and keep the thermostat at 98 for the summer and it is 98 every time I get in.
I also have been assured by my dealer, and by the company, that my 56frame pumps have no problem dealing with the warm environment. Of course, only time will tell. According to everybody here, my pumps will go bad before anybody else's as it is in a thermopane environment and they are used in the filtration cycle, unlike a 24/7 circ. pump.
Topic: How to Negotiate and Buy a Hot tub. (Read 10000 times)
I sell Marquis and MAXX (Elite and now Coleman) I don't understand the underlying hostility in the tone of your posts. Are you a dealer or just a customer that has had a good experience with their spa? I have both spas on the floor side by side and there is no doubt the FF is quieter! You can get angry about that all you want and challenge it all you want but I see it everyday! Both are great lines yet two uniquely different philosophies. I will tell you that I love the salability of the MAXX products with their waterfalls, stereos and other features prefer the Marquis for myself but . Both manufactures make a great product. I look at it as the difference between a Chevy/Ford or a Lexus. Some people prefer one some prefer the other. We point out the difference in philosophy in both products.
As far as “heat creep” goes, I can prove that right on the showroom floor also. If we do not open the vents on the side cabinet and have the spa set at 104 the spa will be at 105 or 106 on the showroom floor with the cover closed. If a customer understands how to adjust for this it can be a positive, it shows them that the heat is truly being recaptured under the cabinet.
The 24 hour circ pumps are a whole different issue, IMO they work fine but if you can accomplish the same thing without adding more components I feel your better off in the long run. Companies like D1 incorporate a circ pump into a sanitation and heating system that would not be as effective without the circ pump so it makes a lot of sense on their product. The best example of this I can give is that I have an “on demand” hot water system in my house – there is a circulation pump plumbed inline so that when I turn the faucet on I have instant hot water. I have replaced 2 of these pumps in the last 3 years and have had some other issues with it but love the fact that I don’t have to run my water for a few moments for it to get hot. In the end it costs more to have that system but the benefit of it outweighs the cost.
Wohoo!!! I was the 10000th viewer...
You beat me to it- way to go Bulmer. . .
Ok, double or nothing, let's go for 20
I I don't understand the underlying hostility in the tone of your posts.