Hot Tub Forum
Original => Hot Tub Forum => Topic started by: fil bagwadia on September 06, 2017, 11:49:30 pm
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I have a 2001 Sundance Altamar 850 series hot tub that is defying my error diagnostic skills. I need help please. I know that the subject of FLOW error has been discussed many times but the problem I have is strange.
Normally the flow error is caused by either clogged filters or flow switch. I replaced both the fine and coarse filters and bought a new flow switch. I still get
the same FLOW error. Following an old post, I pulled out and re inserted the Sensor Loom (top middle of board) and with a click the motors stated working again as if something needed resetting but when they timed out, I got the FLOW error again.
So, the filters are clean, the flow switch is new and positioned correctly, why am I still getting this error?
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I have a 2001 Sundance Altamar 850 series hot tub that is defying my error diagnostic skills. I need help please. I know that the subject of FLOW error has been discussed many times but the problem I have is strange.
Normally the flow error is caused by either clogged filters or flow switch. I replaced both the fine and coarse filters and bought a new flow switch. I still get
the same FLOW error. Following an old post, I pulled out and re inserted the Sensor Loom (top middle of board) and with a click the motors stated working again as if something needed resetting but when they timed out, I got the FLOW error again.
So, the filters are clean, the flow switch is new and positioned correctly, why am I still getting this error?
Is it the original pump?
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Have you tried killing the main power to the tub? Wait several minutes and put power back on.
I don't have the same model tub. On mine, sometimes rebooting the system has reset this condition to normal.
If you are running on the original Controller/PAC it is probably a good idea to replace the controller anyhow.
My Hydro-Spa is twenty years old. I'm seriously thinking about replacing the controller/pac pre-emptively (this is the second one and is 11 years old.)
Primarily thinking about replacing because winter in the Carolina's often goes below freezing, and I don't want to have to worry about keeping it warm enough to keep the pipes from freezing if the heater goes out.
Under $500 for peace of mind.
Edited to add-are you sure the pump/s are in proper working order? I had a pump that would sometimes start, other times not.
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Thank you T Man and Pers.
The Circ pump was replaced on 7/2016 and the two-speed pump replaced on 9/2016. I strongly believe in maintenance and do take care of my hot tub and water.
Pers, resetting with main power off did not solve the issue. When I pull the Sensor Loom off and then plug it back in, the pumps come on and the display does not show FLOW. When the pumps are manually turned off or as they time out, FLOW raises its ugly head.
Also I would hate to spend replacing the circuit board and find the problem unrelated to the board.
Is there a way to test flow switch in or outside the tub?
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Thank you T Man and Pers.
The Circ pump was replaced on 7/2016 and the two-speed pump replaced on 9/2016. I strongly believe in maintenance and do take care of my hot tub and water.
Pers, resetting with main power off did not solve the issue. When I pull the Sensor Loom off and then plug it back in, the pumps come on and the display does not show FLOW. When the pumps are manually turned off or as they time out, FLOW raises its ugly head.
Also I would hate to spend replacing the circuit board and find the problem unrelated to the board.
Is there a way to test flow switch in or outside the tub?
Jump past it. Hook the wires together.
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What kind of FLO error are you getting?
Is it flashing between FLO and the temperature and you are able to turn the pumps on and off?
Or is it solid FLO, and not able to turn the pumps on and off?
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Thank you Tman and SerjicalStrike.
Tman, when you said hook the flow switch wires together, did you mean place a jumper (shorting out) the wires from flow switch that go on the Sensors Loom on the Control board?
SerjicalStrike, good questions. The error FLOW is non-flashing and I am not able to turn the pumps on and off or change temp..
I have been checking the display unit frequently during the course of the day and what I have recently observed (to my surprise) is that once in a while the FLOW error disappears completely and the temp shows and I am able to turn the pumps on and off; normal operation. Thinking this could be temperature related, meaning the controller getting too hot with 90 degrees in Colorado, I removed the hot tub covers and the control box cover completely. No effect.
Also ran the tub with both filters removed, just in case I had some blockage. No effect.
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Ok, great. That is what I thought was happening.
If you have the FLO error and the circulation pump is running, you have a bad relay on the board.
If you have the FLO error and the circulation pump is off, you have a bad flow switch
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....Also I would hate to spend replacing the circuit board and find the problem unrelated to the board....
I don't mean the circuit board. I mean the whole control pac, heater, controls, everything electrical except the pumps, and ozone if fitted. New relays, circuit board, controls for setting, etc.
Sixteen years is a long time for electrical components to perform well in an environment of heat and moisture. If you're replacing pumps, the control pac is likely not far behind.
On many spas it's a bolt on replacement not that much different from changing out a pump.
My original board/heater/controller/pac died after nine years, my digital replacement has been in there 11 years. I am ordering a replacement to the tune of $450.00.
I am in my seventies, and figure if I replace the controller/heater pac that will hopefully hold me for another ten years or so. At that time the shell will be thirty years old, and I will probably spring for a new one.
Might not be necessary, but then the oldest thing in there will be one pump that is six years old.
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I would not recommend replacing perfectly working equipment just because the parts are "old."
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I would not recommend replacing perfectly working equipment just because the parts are "old."
I had some issues last winter with it cutting off on high limit during the colder weeks. Multiple times. Adjusted the limit switch a bit, afraid to take it further. Did it repeatedly. Did not do once this summer.
In my case, it is also because the parts are "old" on the repairman. I'm not sure I'll be physically able to work on it five years from now, but can handle it today.
In fil bagwada's situation, he is having issues and it may behoove him to replace the aging control system.
In my situation, I don't want any more concerns dealing with the HL situation this winter and it's worth $450 to me to have a new control panel in there, which hopefully will give me another 10 years of trouble free service. I am aware that may not be the case but it was with the last one.
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Many thank yous to Pers Onal and Hank Williams.
I am a pretty good handyman and will attempt any repair that's thrown at me. I too am not sure about replacing parts that could be in working order or to put it differently, replacing without ensuring that something has failed definitely. Control Pac.....is there such a thing on the market available as a bundle?
The steady FLOW indicator is ON and the Circ pump is not running. I did replace the Flow switch but willing to do it one more time. However, first I want to connect Circ Pump directly to 240V to ensure it runs continuously as long as the power is supplied. If it passes the test, I am willing to replace the Flow Switch. As mentioned before, I can get rid of the error by removing and re-inserting the SENSOR cable loom (hearing a click) and all is well till FLOW shows up again.
FYI, my Filter Cycle is set o STANDARD which means that my Circ Pump should be ON all the time.
Please keep me informed as I do appreciate help.
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You can test the flow switch by removing the leads from the sensor loom and attaching an ohm meter to the leads. With the sensor open, the leads should read infinite Ohms. When the switch is closed, it should read very close to 0 Ohms. If you put the meter on them with the switch open, and they read something like 50k ohms, then the switch is bad.
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I am a pretty good handyman and will attempt any repair that's thrown at me. ...Control Pac.....is there such a thing on the market available as a bundle?
In my lifetime there have been very few things I could not and would not repair. Sometimes, I enjoyed (pretty much) the challenge and my resolution of the issue.
Now, in my seventies, I no longer feel the need and usually pay someone to work on my vehicles, boat, etc. I still do odd things but prefer overkill to have no issues. Particularly on a spa with winter and sub-freezing temps coming to my area.
You can buy (I just ordered and will arrive tomorrow) a bundle, configured for my spa that has the controls, circuit board, new relays, switches, a digital system (instead of pneumatic), new wiring harness for the spa control pad, new control pad, new heating element, everything new to bolt up and replace my old setup - for the princely sum of $450.00. That will control 2 each 220 volt pumps, one 110 volt air pump and an ozone pump. My hydro-spa is right at 21 years old. With your sundance being about 17 years old, I am thinking you may find it a feasible solution at approximately the same price. While I am sure there are more than a few out there running with older control panels, to some extent you are likely to start having "old boat syndrome" where when you fix one thing, two more go out, then another when what is happening is the heat and moisture start making things age prematurely.
To me, it's a no-brainer with winter coming and I don't have to fool with anything once I change out the pac which is not much more effort than changing a pump.
When my last heating unit went 11 years ago, I changed out the pac and control pad.
I will also note that the service man that came out on a leak, made light of the "spaguts" brand that I am using commenting that it was made to a price point with various components being made by various manufacturers. He didn't seem to think much of it. I would be surprised if he wouldn't charge at least $1200 for a "brand name."
When I changed out the original pac, a unit from the original manufacturer with the same capabilities was over $1,000 at the time. I have little doubt that if you bought a genuine Sundance replacement part that it would run $1,000 or maybe twice that.
The brand I am using has worked wonderfully, for the last 11 years and seems to perform equal to or better than the original one that lasted nine years. The control pad definitely works better.
Google is your friend. I would be surprised if their was not a bolt-on bundle that will resolve your current issues and give you a new lease on the life of your spa. And probably for around the same price as mine. I will note that their website package price is confusing, because they include a pump on the package price. If you don't need a pump, then it will be around $200 less than their package price.
I've been happy with spaguts as a parts dealer, and also bought a 220 volt replacement motor and pump from them for about $200. That has worked well for the last six years.
One thing, you would need to be careful that your configuration and the replacement controller are compatible in voltages and circuits. Also, my spa was built before waterfalls, special lighting etc were popular. I'm sure they make replacements for most current configurations.
You may well want to fix your current issue since you are narrowing it down, but if you start having other issues continuing to arise one thing after another you may want to consider just going with a new control pac bundle.
Edited to add - if you change out the control pac you will have to reinsert the main wiring connection, and redo pump wiring connections. However, the control pad is provided with a plug in harness. I had to use a provided adapter plate for the control pad. Other than it was just a bolt-in replacement where the heater is.
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...Edited to add - if you change out the control pac you will have to reinsert the main wiring connection, and redo pump wiring connections. However, the control pad is provided with a plug in harness. I had to use a provided adapter plate for the control pad. Other than it was just a bolt-in replacement where the heater is.
Wow, that was long, I guess that happens when I can't sleep.
Installed the new control pac, it was a bit more involved than I remember. No one should attempt this who isn't knowledgeable about wiring with 240 volts and isn't comfortable rewiring pump connections. Was a smooth install with the main glitch being that 6 gauge copper wire is hard to work with even for young hands. Took me longer than I would have thought and after recutting the ends several times got the 240 volt hooked up nicely. Fired everything up and everything worked except the two speeds on the main pump. I ordered configure for 240 pump but one of the wires for the number one pump was hooked to a 120 volt post, moved that to the proper 240 volt post indicated on the schematic and everything is going fine.
The heating element on the one I removed had over time bent/disfigured just enough that one end was close to the metal pipe it resides in. That likely was what was causing it to cut off on high limit last winter.
I'm glad I replaced the whole deal, and hopefully I will get another 11 years out of it. I doubt seriously that in another five years I would be able to handle the 6 ga copper wire. I had trouble handling it at this time. I just don't have the strength in my hands that I used to.
For most of the decades I have been married, my wife would bring me things/jars/whatever for me to open. For the last ten years or so I have been asking her to open things for me.
Hopefully, this will help anyone considering replacing a control pac. It's a bit more time than replacing a pump and you likely will have to reconfigure the 240 volt hookup. However, it's not rocket science and not that hard to do if you are knowledgeable and safe working with 240 volts.
I have no financial interest in Spaguts, but have been happy with the two control pacs, motor and items I have ordered from them.
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Delayed response, sorry. I have been travelling a lot recently. But thanks for all the replies and recommendations.
My FLO problem is still there but I have 'cheated' to make it less bothersome. As I was always able to reset the error by removing and replacing the SENSOR cable, I focussed on that aspect. The trouble doing that was removing the panels and putting them back on every time I wanted that reset. To make it easier, I cut the red wire of the FLO switch going into the circuit board and placed a spring loaded mini switch in series. Every time I saw FLO on the panel, I simply flicked the switch and everything reset. By flicking the switch, I am opening the flow switch momentarily for the reset to take place. I was able to mount the mini switch on the outside cover which then became easy to use. The tub would then run without FLO error sometimes for an entire day and sometimes just for a few hours. As I said it is a 'cheat'.
What I do hear everytime the reset takes place is some relay clicking, I dont know which. This brings me to SerjicalStrike's post on: September 11, 2017, 09:09:35 AM. He mentioned that "If you have the FLO error and the circulation pump is running, you have a bad relay on the board." Could you tell me how I can identify the faulty relay? Which relay? It sounds like that could be the root of my issue.
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The relays are K9 and K10. Are the wires for the circulation pump both connected to TB2? Or is only one wire on TB2 and 1 wire on the main terminal block?
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Thank you SerjicalStrike. There is only one wire on TB2 and 1 wire on the main terminal block from the circulation pump. Are you on to something here?
Also looking at the Electrical Wiring Diagram, the only one I have, given in the 'Installation & Owner's Manual' I do not see relays K9 and K10. I see only K1 to K8. Is there a more detailed diagram for Altamar on line?
Appreciate your response.
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Anything new, SerjicalStrike?
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With the power off, move the black wire to the left and move the white wire to right side of the main terminal block.
This will use the unused relay that should be working fine.
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Thanks again, SerjicalStrike. I will try and let you know the results and if it works, I will support reinstating Hank Williams!
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Connected the circ pump directly to the main power terminal block and the circ pump now runs all the time and I do not get FLOW error. I am not sure what control signals were received by the circ pump when one wire was connected to TB2. Though it solved the FLOW issue, some other strange error conditions have shown up, but fortunately they are not show stoppers and I am able to use my hot tub.
The new error conditions that I am referring to are
(1) the adjusted (every 6 hours) filter cycle timings are totally ignored and they seem to come on any time. Cycle is set to 'Standard'.
(2) quite frequently the two stage pump comes on at slow speed and the panel shows flashing 'OH' error. The temperature is set to 102 and the water is definitely not overheating.
I cant figure those out.
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You shouldn't have both wires connected to the main terminal block.
The wire that was connected to the main terminal block should have been moved to the other side of the block.
The wire that was installed in the push in connector should have been moved to the push in connector next to it.
Fix that and see if your other issues go away.
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Sorry, I must have read you incorrect. I will switch around again as you suggest and see what happens.
Many thanks