Hot Tub Forum
Original => Hot Tub Forum => Topic started by: jeaves726 on February 06, 2018, 05:06:19 pm
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We have an Artesian Spas Waikiki hot tub (500 gallon). It has 3 pumps for jets, a circulation pump, and the ozonator. About a week ago, we noticed that the temp was down more than usual. We keep it in standard mode and around 99 degrees. When I turned up the temp, it started a cycle and about 45 seconds later, it started warming. After I felt the warmer water coming out, I thought maybe it was just hung, so I started the jets. The temp/heat light stayed on when I turned on the first and second jet pump. When I turned on the third jet pump, the heating immediately shut off. The circulation pump was still running, but it stopped heating the water.
I turned off the jets and changed the temp which started the cycle over. It started heating and produced the same result when I turned the third jet pump on.
I thought it was just "jet 3" that was the problem. Then, I started the temp cycle over. When it started heating, I turned on "jet 3" first and the temp light stayed on…with warmer water coming out. I turned on "jet 1" with no issues as well. When I turned on "jet 2" the heat light immediately turned off and the water stopped heating.
So basically, no particular jet pump is the problem, but the heating/temp kicks off as soon as all three jet pumps are running. It's never done this before….what could this be? I can't find anything on this type of problem anywhere. I also talked to a repair guy with quite a few years experience and he said he's never heard of anything like that.
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Usually with that many pumps, unless you have a 60 or 70 amp breaker, there is not enough power for everything to run at once. I cannot speak for why it is all of a sudden doing this though.
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Yeah, if it was new, I would agree. We've had the same setup for about 5 years now and of course it's "just out of warranty" according to the repair place.
Let me ask this....
About nine months ago, we had an issue with the circulation pump. They came out and said the pump was under warranty replacing it with a new(ish) pump. This pump had a year warranty on it at that time. About three months after they installed the new pump, I called them to come back out because it was not circulating correctly. It started out fine right after the install, but then ran less and less. It got to where the pump wasn't running much at all on the temp cycles. The place sent a different guy out to check the pump and possibly replace the bad part. What the second guy found is that when the first guy replaced the part, he incorrectly plugged the new(ish) circulation pump into the audio power plug on the main board. I don't know the exact voltage difference, but he said the audio plug supplies significantly less amperage/voltage than the circulation plug and that the pump had been running at a lower voltage than it should for the last six months causing it to fail. He plugged it into the correct plug on the main board and said there was no damage to the circulation pump. Because of the error, they extended the warranty on the new(ish) pump for a year from that date.
My question now is could that have caused voltage issues on the main board? The pump was trying to pull more power through a low power port causing some type of damage to the board...maybe? I understand enough power stuff to be dangerous, but not enough to know if that's a possibility.
Hopefully that makes sense.
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The audio plug, for like a stereo? Seem to me that would be 12v and no way run a 110v circ pump. Makes no sense, unless the transformer for the stereo plugs into it that, then drops it down from 110 to 12v for the stereo?
Are you sure the heater has always been on with all three pumps running. Even the original Jacuzzi J-385 3 pump spa in 60amp would shut the heater down when all three were on. But would stay on if pump 1 was only in low speed with the other 2 pumps on.
If so is their a jumper on the board the tech might have changed and are you on a 60amp breaker?
The other issue with the spa being colder than normal, if the circ pump was running it should heat the temp to what ever temp you set. It doesn't just run all 3 pumps at the same time by itself.
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The audio plug, for like a stereo? Seem to me that would be 12v and no way run a 110v circ pump. Makes no sense, unless the transformer for the stereo plugs into it that, then drops it down from 110 to 12v for the stereo?
Yep, the power plug for a stereo. We didn't get the model with the built in stereo so the plug on the main board is open and is the same connector as the circ pump. I'm not sure about a transformer, but the repair guy said that the audio plug supplies enough voltage/amps to power up the pump but not to fully run it...which was why it turned on and worked initially. He said it worked on a volt meter when the first guy was there installing it but over time couldn't run at the lower voltage causing it to stop cycling like it should.
Are you sure the heater has always been on with all three pumps running.
. Yeah, it would heat with all three on. Even the repair place said it should still be heating with all the jets running. I just went out and checked the breaker. It's a 100 amp.
if the circ pump was running it should heat the temp to what ever temp you set. It doesn't just run all 3 pumps at the same time by itself.
My understanding with our model (which could be completely wrong), is that the circ system is separate from the jets (outside of all being run by the same main board). The circ system turns on during the temp cycle. The hot tub as a separate process will turn on all three jet pumps to circulate the water and run a cycle every so often as well, but it isn't to heat the tub.
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So the breaker out at the spa is 100Amp?
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Yep it is.
Sorry about the message. I tried to reply to this and somehow sent a message instead.
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Pretty unusual! You running lights or other outlets off of it?
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Nope. It has LEDs built in it but we typically don't use them. No other accessories. Just the jet pumps and circ.
Do you think the main board could be damaged by the low voltage deal?
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Nope. It has LEDs built in it but we typically don't use them. No other accessories. Just the jet pumps and circ.
Do you think the main board could be damaged by the low voltage deal?
Low voltage to a pump won't ruin the board. If anything it would effect the pump but lower than required voltage wouldn't ruin a pump. Higher than required yes. A 110 volt pump will not run on 12 volts. Was the radio plug 12 volts?
Are you sure the amperage at the breaker is consistent?
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Nope. It has LEDs built in it but we typically don't use them. No other accessories. Just the jet pumps and circ.
Do you think the main board could be damaged by the low voltage deal?
I meant like deck lights or outlets around a deck.
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Oh, I got ya. Nah, it's on it's own breaker with nothing else tied onto it.
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Everything (mostly) has worked for five years with this tub. It's always heated while running all three jet pumps. The circ cycle turns on something like 8 times in a 24 hour period (I think). And, the jet pumps turn on a few times in the 24 hour period too. The only exception was when the circ pump plugged into the stereo plug and it wouldn't run correctly. It's just odd to me that it's been fine that whole time, then they hook something up incorrectly and all the sudden, the board is going bad.
It also doens't look great that when the company checked their paperwork, it was documented that the pump was hooked up correctly...after the second guy came out and told us it was wrong. He logged it on his paperwork, but somehow that got changed after he left our house.
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Everything (mostly) has worked for five years with this tub. It's always heated while running all three jet pumps. The circ cycle turns on something like 8 times in a 24 hour period (I think). And, the jet pumps turn on a few times in the 24 hour period too. The only exception was when the circ pump plugged into the stereo plug and it wouldn't run correctly. It's just odd to me that it's been fine that whole time, then they hook something up incorrectly and all the sudden, the board is going bad.
It also doens't look great that when the company checked their paperwork, it was documented that the pump was hooked up correctly...after the second guy came out and told us it was wrong. He logged it on his paperwork, but somehow that got changed after he left our house.
If you could check if that radio plug is 12 volt we would know. A pump inadvertently plugged into a 12 volt plug would mean the pump wouldn't work. But it wouldn't ruin the board. But a bad pump plugged into the wrong 120v plug may ruin the board.
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Just talked to the spa place. They are saying there's no way it could cause the board to go bad but they've also never really seen the board go out like that either. Hmmm...
He gave me two options. Change the main board out for around $500 or Try to change the circuit breaker for around $100. He said that even if the breaker is not tripping, it could be giving the tub low power on the heat cycle. I can't make that make sense in my head...if the breaker was the problem, it would trip. If it was causing lower than normal power, it would show up in other ways in addition to the heat. The ONLY time the heat kicks off is when a third jet pump is activated. Nothing else is going crazy on the tub...the led lighting works without any issues (I realize that's extremely low voltage compared to the pumps, but if it's kicking off low voltage stuff to run the higher voltage stuff...)
My fear is that we would replace the main board and it not be the problem.
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You need a volt meter and start checking what the volts are at different locations. Another monkey in the wrench, is that 100 amp breaker actually a GFCI? Yapping with my tech if the spa had a problem and tried to trip the breaker, it couldn't because the breaker is to high of an amp. And that would probably damage the board. But then it probably could be a few things going on. I think you need a new service guy. If you do change that breaker, drop it down to a 60 at the least.
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W When I turned up the temp, it started a cycle and about 45 seconds later, it started warming. After I felt the warmer water coming out, I thought maybe it was just hung, so I started the jets. The temp/heat light stayed on when I turned on the first and second jet pump. When I turned on the third jet pump, the heating immediately shut off. The circulation pump was still running, but it stopped heating the water.
I turned off the jets and changed the temp which started the cycle over. It started heating and produced the same result when I turned the third jet pump on.
If the heater shuts off when the third pump is turned on, the computer is telling it to shut off. This is a programming issue, not a power issue. Is there any way to take a picture of the main pack or owner's manual where it lists the amperage options? I can't find one online that offers a 100amp option.
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I'm out right now but could take a picture when I get back. What would cause the programming to change all the sudden?
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Many boards have a jumper or dip switch setting that sets the programming for the board. Usually it distinguishes between a 30, 50, or 60amp mode. 30 amp being no pumps on high, 50 being 1 pump on high, and 60 allowing 2 high speed pumps to run with the heater on.
The owner's manual or the electrical box will give some information on what is going on.
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Okay, here are a few pictures of the board. I didn't see anything specifically that said 50 or 60 amps. The tub has been shut up since November during the last service. We've used it, but no one has accessed the panels. The heating issue started about a week ago. Just all of the sudden it stopped heating with the Jets running. I don't think anybody has flipped the switch causing the change.
(https://i.imgur.com/PVvAGjZ.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/hWDHW7h.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/FD4MpEQ.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/PCCWOYI.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/wk8rLhW.jpg)
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Looking at the cover, the audio port that the circulation pump was plugged into is 120v 2amp. Also, the yellow marks are which switches are on in the switchback on the main board.
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For 3 high speed pumps and heater to run at the same time, DIP switches A2 and A10 need to both be up. From the picture, A2 is down and A10 is up, allowing only 2 high speed pumps and the heater to be on at the same time.
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That's what I was thinking. Would it be possible for that to change? The last time the panel was off was in November and it's changed all of the sudden. I'm not sure how to explain it other than the switch flipped itself (I realize how that sounds).
If I flip the switch for the 3 pump and blower, would it still operate under the 48 amps?
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If I flip the switch for the 3 pump and blower, would it still operate under the 48 amps?
No. 2 high speed pumps and the heater run right around 48 amps, thus the need for a 60amp breaker. Another pump on high would be around 12-15amps.
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ok....I went to the store where we bought the tub and talked to a guru at the service dept. He was very knowledgeable and we had a really good discussion. He said that changing the main board would be the wrong step. He suggested that I flip the dip switches back to allow 3 pumps. While we couldn't figure out how it could have changed, we both figured that needed to be reset to allow all the pumps.
When I got home, I took the panel off and changed the one switch. After powering the tub back up, it runs like it used to (3 jet pumps and the heater at the same time). I've run it for about five cycles and have the LED lights going too. Everything is working without tripping the breaker (which apparently is 50 amp, not 100 as I mentioned before).
I guess it makes sense that it hasn't tripped because all of the pumps were running before it stopped and it never tripped then either. It appears we are back to normal without spending the $500ish on a new board. It was actually free.
The only reason we could figure on why it changed suddenly, was that maybe the last tech that was out changed one of the dip switches while the tub was still powered on or running. Maybe that programming hung until the tub was restarted or power was cut. It's a long shot, but the only other explanation is that the switch flipped itself (which is basically impossible). I guess yard ninjas could be another option...
Thanks for all your help and each of you that took the time to respond. You've all helped me process this and understand what was happening and how I needed to proceed.
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I can guarantee you the last tech changed the dp switches! Why who knows. Nice job SerjicalStrike!
I looked at the schematic but missed it, might have been the XTRA large photos ;)