Hot Tub Forum

Original => Hot Tub Forum => Topic started by: dazedandconfused on May 30, 2004, 11:26:48 am

Title: Battle of the Manufacturers
Post by: dazedandconfused on May 30, 2004, 11:26:48 am
I am looking at Sundance, HS, D1.

On average (not dealing with a specific model), what does each of these three have that the others dont? Ie, what makes one better then the other.

I still havent confirmed if D1's bottom is wood (yuck!) or is it covered with plastic (like Sundance) or foam (HS).

Here is my list:

SD - Cameo
HS - Vista
D1 - Chairman2

Basically, aren't these the same?  Any thoughts out there?

I ready to pull the trigger but am unsure of which on!  In the next week, I plan to again wet test these 3 back to back.
Title: Re: Battle of the Manufacturers
Post by: wmccall on May 30, 2004, 12:09:01 pm
I like the seat layout and foot space of the Sundance. (I haven't wet tested any of those, but you did ask for any thoughts.  Does the hot spring have a digital temp readoout and controls from inside the tub? I couldn't see in the picture on thier site.
Title: Re: Battle of the Manufacturers
Post by: Spa_Tech on May 30, 2004, 01:20:59 pm
"I still havent confirmed if D1's bottom is wood (yuck!) or is it covered with plastic (like Sundance) or foam (HS). "

Dimension One's bases are made of pressure treated ground contact lumber- Their is a ABS plastic sheet covering the bottom as well.

As for differences-

Dimension One is the shallowest at 35.5 inches deep
HotSpring boasts the greatest amount of filtration space at 325 sqft. and Sundance is the only one of your selected spas that does not have a 24 hour circulation pump. Dimension One is the only one of the spas offering a lifetime warranty on their Ultra life shell.

What does this all mean?... It means that youre going to have to make a decision between three similar nationally known spas.

Have you shopped your dealer?

Perhaps instead of flipping a coin over which product is better, maybe you could do some investigating about the dealer support for each product.

How many years each of them been in business? What do their competition say about them? Their customers? Do they have an in house service tech? How long they been repairing spas? Do they only work on their own product, or do they work on everything?

Ask some questions, find out-- I think you will find your answer there rather than spliting hairs over which hot tub to buy.
Title: Re: Battle of the Manufacturers
Post by: Mendocino101 on May 30, 2004, 02:03:24 pm
Quote
" Dimension One is the only one of the spas offering a lifetime warranty on their Ultra life shell.

.

It is my understanding that lifetime warranty's..are actually defined by different states laws. For example in Calif 7 years is said to cover the title of "life time warranty"...does any one know if this is correct...I hope this is not to far off subject for this thread...
Title: Re: Battle of the Manufacturers
Post by: Electro on May 30, 2004, 07:30:15 pm
Spa Tech,

According to the Sundance sales brochure (page 16), their spas have 24 hour circulation pumps.

Electro
Title: Re: Battle of the Manufacturers
Post by: Spa_Tech on May 30, 2004, 07:50:09 pm
Electro-

Small distinction here I suppose- but if you want to program Sundance's circulation pump to be 24 hour filtration you can- but effectively its programmed filtration. Aside from summer timer functions, neither HotSpring or Dimension One do not have 'off/on' programming for their 24 hour pump.

Id be curious to see if the factory presets default to 24 hour circulation or not. Anyone?
Title: Re: Battle of the Manufacturers
Post by: Brewman on May 30, 2004, 10:14:21 pm
Not sure if all Sundace spas are the same in this regard, but ours has a circulation pump that comes pre set to run 24 hours per day.  This runs water thru the microfilter continuously, and will also provide heated water if called for.
 There is another filtering cycle which uses the large  pump and the main filter.  This comes pre set from the factory to run for 30 minutes every 6 hours.  This factory programming can be set by the user for longer or shorter times, as the owner sees fit.  
Title: Re: Battle of the Manufacturers
Post by: tony on May 31, 2004, 12:16:24 am
Sundance spas come factory programmed to run the circ pump 24/7 and the filter cycles on the two speed pump for 30 minutes four times a day.  The circ pump filters through the micro clean filter while the two speed pump filters through the pleated filter.  Both systems can be reprogrammed by the owner almost any way you please.  I believe Sundance uses the same Lang circ pump that HotSprings does.
Title: Re: Battle of the Manufacturers
Post by: Chas on May 31, 2004, 12:04:46 pm
Quote
It is my understanding that lifetime warranty's..are actually defined by different states laws. For example in Calif 7 years is said to cover the title of "life time warranty"...does any one know if this is correct...I hope this is not to far off subject for this thread...


The D1 warranty is available online - and I'm on my way out the door or I would go look it up, but it is 100% for a few years, then drops to about 50% (or something) for the next few years, and then drops to 25% for "life."  This is a good warranty, but I don't quite know why they call it a 'lifetime' warranty... A fine point perhaps, but then, I'm a fine guy. Or was it, 'I'm a pointy guy...."

Whatever. Using that logic, I could offer to extend the warranty on the spas I sell to "lifetime," if I just offered to pay the first $10 of the repair costs for as long as you own your spa.

In California, 7 years is the max a court of law will force a manufacturer to back a lifetime warranty. That doesn't mean that a company will NOT choose to do so to protect it's own reputation etc.

Title: Re: Battle of the Manufacturers
Post by: Spa_Tech on May 31, 2004, 12:46:22 pm
"Sundance spas come factory programmed to run the circ pump 24/7..."
"I believe Sundance uses the same Lang circ pump that HotSprings does. " -Tony-

Tony- I stand corrected on the matter- I was led to believe by their own collateral material that the circ pump was simply programable.

As for the circ pumps, all three manufacturers use a Laing 909 pump in various configurations, Dimension One included.

As for the 'Lifetime Warranty'...I dont believe that its pro-rated as Chas has indicated. From the D1 website...(http://dimensiononespas.com/images/documents/01533-0001RevC-2004D1DomesticWarranty.pdf)

"Lifetime UltraLife® Shell Warranty:
During years one (1) through seven (7), Dimension One Spas will repair or replace any hot tub found defective under the terms of this warranty. No charge will be
made for parts or labor. Normal shipping costs will be covered in areas where there is an Authorized Dimension One Spas Dealer within thirty (30) miles/fifty (50) kilometers. After year seven (7), Dimension One Spas will repair or replace the hot tub, at its option, provided the hot tub is returned at owner’s expense, to Dimension One Spas, 2611 Business Park Dr., Vista, CA 92081. Dimension One Spas is not liable for any freight, shipping, removal or installation."
Title: Re: Battle of the Manufacturers
Post by: dazedandconfused on May 31, 2004, 12:48:53 pm
Wow!

So the D1 life warranty on the shell is devious, not truly a complete warranty after 7 years!  I would have to pay to send back to CA??

Title: Re: Battle of the Manufacturers
Post by: spahappy on May 31, 2004, 01:01:04 pm
As I stated in an earlier post, read the fine print. Better to find out now than 7 years and 2 months down the road........         Spahappy
Title: Re: Battle of the Manufacturers
Post by: poolboy34 on May 31, 2004, 01:05:52 pm
Alrighty......lets set this thing straight.  In 18+ years of selling Dimension One spas the company I work for has had only ONE D-1 spa out of 5000 sold go back to D-1 due to problems with the ultralife shell. That customer paid the freight to have the spa shipped to D-1's secondary facility in Ohio.  D-1 then replaced the shell, all the jets, pumps, and reinsulated their spa.  D-1 then sent the refurbished spa back to the customer at no extra charge.  This work was done on a spa that was 8 years old.  I hope this clears things up.  I would also like to point out that ALL warranties have fine print which should be read.  The three spas you looking at are made by three of the top companies in the world in the Spa industry.  You really should focus on how the spa fits and feels to you dry and wet.  I would also like to point out that how comfortable you are with your dealer is a big factor as well.  make sure they ahve been in business for many years, and that they have been selling that brand of spa for a while as well.  This might seem like a small matter, but it will determine how quickly warranty work is done.  Dealers that have long-term relationships with a particular manufacture shows alot of stability and loyalty.  this will reap it's rewards for the customer in the years to come.  You'll know that your dealer will be around to do any work if a problem should ever arise.  You'll also have the peace of mind knowing that your dealer can get you factory answers quickly given their long standing relationship with that manufacturer.  In closing, Watkins, Sundance, and D-1 are HIGHLY selective of the dealers that sell their spas.  So chances are very good that your dealer has an excelent service dept, in addition to a well trained support staff.

Jason,
Store manager for a D-1 and Caldera Spas dealer
Title: Re: Battle of the Manufacturers
Post by: Spa_Tech on May 31, 2004, 01:08:37 pm
"I would have to pay to send back to CA?? "

Yes.

But consider having a 7+ year old spa with a warrantable defect and getting a whole new spa for cost of removal and shipping to California.

Lets imagine that both removal and cross country shipping collectively cost $1,000.00. That's much better than having to go back out and buy a new one--for $7,000.00 to $12,000.00 and certainly a bonus if the spa is 10 or 15 years old should a defect occur. (I mean youre getting a current model spa with all the new gadgets and technology in exchange for your old tub-- not a model of the same vintage as you bought.)

I dont think thats so bad...
Title: Re: Battle of the Manufacturers
Post by: dazedandconfused on May 31, 2004, 01:14:18 pm
I read some more of the fine print of D1.  I am not trying to pick on D1 - just trying to research and learn.

Anyway, according to the warranty, the tiles and grout are not covered at all.  I have heard from people saying to avoid tiles and grout in a hot tub cause of all the chemicals etc.  

I wish that made the Chairmain 2 with the Ultralife shell w/o the tiles.  CAn I special order?
Title: Re: Battle of the Manufacturers
Post by: Chas on May 31, 2004, 01:48:46 pm
I think you can.
Title: Re: Battle of the Manufacturers
Post by: ZzTop on May 31, 2004, 02:04:43 pm
Quote
I read some more of the fine print of D1.  I am not trying to pick on D1 - just trying to research and learn.

Anyway, according to the warranty, the tiles and grout are not covered at all.  I have heard from people saying to avoid tiles and grout in a hot tub cause of all the chemicals etc.  

I wish that made the Chairmain 2 with the Ultralife shell w/o the tiles.  CAn I special order?


Tiles, pillows etc are what make these spas high maintenance as they age IMHO
Title: Re: Battle of the Manufacturers
Post by: dazedandconfused on May 31, 2004, 02:11:22 pm
I forgot to mention that I learned that the headrests are not covered under warranty.  I can understand this if the headrests were just a rubber piece to support your head but the D1 headrests are movable with functional jets buit in and yet it is not covered!  Am I correct?
Title: Re: Battle of the Manufacturers
Post by: Spa_Tech on May 31, 2004, 04:48:11 pm
I cant imagine why you couldnt request the tile be left out if you can order the shell and cabinet colors as well.

The real problem with tile and 'grout' (silicone) is that the people that do the biggest complaining about the tile falling out are typically responsible for it falling out to begin with. Routine or continuous hypersanitation and improper water chemistry is more to blame than improper construction.

dazedandconfused-The head rests your talking about are the neck flex head rests-- dont confuse them with a pillow- The neck flex head rests having plumbing and jets are covered under the spa warranty... I know, because I just rendered a warranty repair for the local D1 dealer this last week. (If you have to know, the supply hose split, and was replaced free of charge.)
Title: Re: Battle of the Manufacturers
Post by: Wisoki on May 31, 2004, 04:59:17 pm
Quote
Sundance spas come factory programmed to run the circ pump 24/7 and the filter cycles on the two speed pump for 30 minutes four times a day.  The circ pump filters through the micro clean filter while the two speed pump filters through the pleated filter.  Both systems can be reprogrammed by the owner almost any way you please.  I believe Sundance uses the same Lang circ pump that HotSprings does.


Tony, your eplanation is perfect. A perfect testimony as to why circulation pumps are totaly unnecessary. For instance, we'll use Jacuzzi since I am familiar with them and they and sundance are basicaly identical. Before theh Jacuzzi Sundance consolidation, and maybe a few years earlier. Jacuzzi did not put any circulation pumps on ANY of their spas. All the spas were factory programed to run for 2 hours twice a day. This worked perfectly , keeping the water nice and clean, and the heater would kick on when ever needed. In your example, the spas have a 24hr circ pump AND the main pumps come on for 30 miinutes 4 times a day. I'm going to ask you a question I already know the answer to, but will wait for your reply. WHY?
Title: Re: Battle of the Manufacturers
Post by: poolboy34 on May 31, 2004, 05:38:26 pm
why???  Because that tiny circ pump isn't strong enough to stir all the water in the spa, and remove LARGER particles in the water.  The "power" filtration cycle (jet pumps run on low speed for up to 2 hrs each day, as well as on High speed for 2 mins/day) is to agitate all of ther water and move those larger particles so they can be filtered out.  This is why Hot Spring is adding 2 spd pumps to their newest models.  This will make their filtration system better.  It's also one reason why D-1 uses 2 spd pumps in ALL of their spa models.

Back to the warranty question.  The adjustable headrests that D-1 offers(neck-flex jet system) ARE covered under warranty.  The Foam head rests are not, and I believe this is also true of most if not all spa manufacturers as the head rests are subject to misuse of chemical sanitizers and customer abuse.  
Title: Re: Battle of the Manufacturers
Post by: poolboy34 on May 31, 2004, 05:40:44 pm
Oh and also you CANNOT special order a D-1 spa without the tiles b/c the molds they use to form the shells have the indents in them for the tiles.  the tiles are handplaced and grouted.  In my opinion they give D-1 Spas a look that distinguishes them from other manufacturers.  The Lotus bay does not come with the decorative tile and is available in the ultralife, you might want to consider checking it out.
Title: Re: Battle of the Manufacturers
Post by: Chas on June 02, 2004, 01:02:02 am
Quote
Oh and also you CANNOT special order a D-1 spa without the tiles b/c the molds they use to form the shells have the indents in them for the tiles.  the tiles are handplaced and grouted.  


I'm pretty sure you can order the spa without tile - and yes the indents are still there - they don't change the mold for one special order...
Title: Re: Battle of the Manufacturers
Post by: tony on June 02, 2004, 11:39:38 am
Hey Wisoki

That is the way Sundance preprograms from the factory and I would guess that Jacuzzi Premium does also.  My first thought on the circ pump is that Sundance uses their micro clean filter and it needs a low flow pump, but they used circ pumps before using the micro clean.  So my guess is that it is used mainly to heat and deliver ozone with filtering as a secondary function.  You can run the spa in economy mode and it will filter as if it did not have a circ pump and do it just fine.

The first year I owned my spa, I filtered one hour, four times a day plus ran the circ pump 24/7.  I am now down to 20 minutes times four and run my circ pump only at night during the summer without noticing any difference.