Hot Tub Forum
General => Beating a dead horse => Topic started by: Hot Tub Guru on March 07, 2006, 11:14:25 am
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Speaking of home shows. I had a customer walk into my booth and say I heard by-pass filtration is the only way to go. Correct me if I'm wrong, but there wasen't a Hot Springs dealer at our show. So who talked about by-pass filtration. It was Catalina and Dynasty. Both of them said "We have no by-pass filtration." So I looked like the fool to this customer telling her to contact the manufacture. She said it was a manufactures rep that told her this. Am I wrong? Does Catalina/Dynasty both have no-bypass filtration?
Michael
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Does Catalina/Dynasty both have no-bypass filtration?
Michael
Since they both have multiple by-pass valves in their spas, I find it highly unlikely. Maybe they are footwell filters or safety features or self-cleaning floors.
Terminator
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Speaking of home shows. I had a customer walk into my booth and say I heard by-pass filtration is the only way to go. Correct me if I'm wrong, but there wasen't a Hot Springs dealer at our show. So who talked about by-pass filtration. It was Catalina and Dynasty. Both of them said "We have no by-pass filtration." So I looked like the fool to this customer telling her to contact the manufacture. She said it was a manufactures rep that told her this. Am I wrong? Does Catalina/Dynasty both have no-bypass filtration?
Michael
I always wonder on things like this whether it is ignorance or just flat out deception. My guess would be that the customer probably heard about no-bypass from a Hot Springs dealer somewhere and asked that sales rep if their spas had it and he/she either said yes because he thought it was the answer the customer was looking for or he had no idea what this meant and said yes because it seemed like the best answer. Which is worse?
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I agree spatech (Gawd I hate saying that ;D ) and I'm guessing it's more to do with ignorance than anything.
Even with a self cleaning floor Term, there's still bypass at the filter on high speed.
Here's a tech question for you guys... Do you know of any spa where the intakes in the footwell allow this water to be filtered prior to exiting the jets? The way I understand it is that almost all are plumbed into the base of the filter but this doesn't allow "filtration". Is that a reasonable assumption?
Steve
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I have worked dozens of these shows. Some of the "road dogs" who work these shows for various manufacturers (not really for dealers) will say and do anything for the sale. The unscrupulous ones are only thinking of their commissions. My observation is they do their homework and intentionally deceive.
I have had some work for me that I would never have back.
There are also professional independent salespeople who work homeshows.
I feel a home show is typically a great place for a deal and for ideas, often not a great place to buy a spa.
Unless...
it's from me. :D
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There are many spa makers out there who plumb in a spring check valve which closes when the small circ pump is the only thing running. The valve will do the same when the big pump in on low speed, if there is no small circ pump. It will then kick open and allow bypass when the pumps are on high speed.
This is still bypass filtration - but I have seen the reps from these factories look me in the eye and tell me that their spa has "no bypass filtration."
Also, there are a few makers who plumb the bottom suction fittings into the pump and run a pressure-side filter. BUT these folks usually equip that filter with a pressure-relief valve which is in fact a bypass system. The bypass usually opens when the jets are on high - or when the filter starts to get loaded up with gunk.
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If you look around the sides of the footwell and see intakes.........the spa bypasses the filter at some point. Hot Spring is the only spa that I've seen without 'em.
Another way to tell that a Hot Spring doesn't bypass the filters is the poor jet pressure ;D Right, Term!
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Sundance does not bypass the filtration system on the 880 series. Filtration pump is totally separate from the jets system and there are no bypass valves.
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But that's the whole point. It's fine to have no bypass on the small circ pump - works great. But you need massive filtration from time to time, and HS does this by very simply pulling ALL of the water that the pumps move through a filter.
A no-bypass system on a set of good-sized pumps can do in ten minutes what a tytpical system needs a couple of hours to do.
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I would think turning the spa water over around 100 times per day without the main pumps running would be considered massive filtration. You only need to turn the jets on when you want to use them and they are not affected by how dirty the filter gets because they do not pull through the filter.
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Another way to tell that a Hot Spring doesn't bypass the filters is the poor jet pressure ;D Right, Term!
Only when the filters are dirty...but...just pop them in the dishwasher!
;D ;D ;D ATWTTB!
Terminator
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Chas a Sundance 880 series circ pump pulls 35 gallons/min. That's over 50000 gallons a day. I would consider that "massive filtration" You would have to run your HS for hours to put that much water through the filters.
That being said HS is a fine product with better filtration than all but one of their competitors ;D
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When I read stuff like this I am sooo glad that I am not in the spa business. I would start getting sarcastic really quickly. Some of the sales tactics used by spa companies sound like jokes about door to door vacuum cheaner salesmen. Like demonstrating that a certain brand of vacuum cleaner can pick up a bowling ball. Yeper, if I had a bunch of bowling balls just showing up all over my living room rug all the time, I sure could use a vacuum cleaner like that. No mention of the fact that such a machine might not pick up dirt so well of course.
My hat is off to you all for your ability to field some of this nonsense and still maintain your sense of humor.
I can't resist telling a vacuum cleaner joke. The eager vacuum cleaner salesman has an appointment (these are scarce) and is not to be denied his opportunity. Eagerly he starts his pitch, and the lady tries several times to break in, but the guy is in full stride as he pours a huge load of nasty, black filth all over her pristine white carpet. "Don't worry," he enthuses, "I will eat the dirt myself ," if the vacuum cleaner does not suck it all right up. At that the lady gets up and starts to leave the room. The salesmas says, "where are you going?" and she replies matter of factly, "to get you a spoon, I have tried to explain several times that the power has been out all afternoon"
Bill
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Sundance does not bypass the filtration system on the 880 series. ÊFiltration pump is totally separate from the jets system and there are no bypass valves.
I believe that means that none of the water is being filtered as it runs from returns to the jet pumps and back into the spa through the jets. Am I wrong?
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This is just one big circle that goes round and round in the heat of passion.
How do you make a spa with FIVE filters intended to clean the water better than others, call it 100% No Bypass Filtration and then you come up with a solution that recommends a way to clean them all, you tell them you can wash them in the dishwasher, yuk.
The trouble is those that sell these, do believe it, and they are the same people that I saw walking out of the 10 day long home shows with their spas running on full tilt, but we never knew why, (filtration).
I can not count the number of times that I have been invited out in the early 90's to help (HS) spa owners keep their water clean like their neighbors (my customer using ozone) and their water was looking like pea soup, not enough filtration.
Well this is 10 years later and Stuart is right in his rants,
7. Over half of what HotSpring sells now as innovative features they crusaded against 10 years ago.
The best way to say it is that "you take your weakness and you make it a STRONG point. "By-pass" is a term from the '80's and now you take the buzz word and you call it "No By-Pass" filtration, meaning 100% of the water that get sucked in is filtered.
Do the math and count the gallons. Now hymbaw makes the point that SD turns over 50,000 gallons a day with their single circ pump and that is true. So what is the outcome, they both filter the water clean. Is one better than the other NO. Do they both clean the water, YES. Do their spa owners enjoy their tubbing experience, YES.
I can remember the HS guys walking out one night as we would all stay late, as if we were writting up deals eh, yeah that's the story, and they would say this is there last Home Show they are doing.
Stuart is right, shows are tiring especially when you sell a good quality product and the wise guy your talking to is a wheeler dealer talking cash that he can't produce but he wants you to match the best, cheapest deal he found out there but he wants your "top of the line". That is what burned them out back then and not too much has changed.
Let's admit it, they all filter good and they do their job. You could buy any of the brands that are bantered about on this board and they will all work good and deliver enjoyment to whomever buys it, but selling it to them is the real trick. You have got to be better than all others, that means you are the BEST DEAL, BETTER THAN ALL OTHERS and that is where you have to stretch the imagination to the believable realm to the gullible public, anxious to do better than others in the quest for the BEST DEAL.
I take nothing from HS, it is a great Hot Tub and so are 20 or 30 others that do the same thing, deliver fun and enjoyment to those that use them.
D-1, Artesian, Sundance, Coleman, Marquis, Master, Cal, Jacuzzi, LA, Caldera, Artic, and ALL others have one thing in common with Hot Springs, they all make Hot Water and the all have happy owners, and they all deliver happines, fun, enjoyment and they bring relationships closer together.
I don't care how you clean your filter, I care how I clean mine.
I don't care if you have 100% no by pass filtration, my water is clean.
I don't care if you are TP or FF, I pay my energy bills because they are mine, now you pay yours.
I don't care too much about any of you, but I do care a whole lot about the 3 new deliveries that we had today, and I am dedicated to see that they are happy and enjoy their experience for years to come.
I truely wish you all the best, but we are all different and not the same, again that is what is good about this forum. It is controversial, it is honest and we believe it to be, it is refreshing, enlightning, educational, and some times even a waste of time.
I don't know where some of you get the time to be here so much, get a life, or get a job. Chances are you work for someone that pays you and you don't own your own business and are just waiting for the next customer to walk in, the phone to ring, or time to go home and soak in the tub.
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D-1, Artesian, Sundance, Coleman, Marquis, Master, Cal, Jacuzzi, LA, Caldera, Artic, and ALL others have one thing in common with Hot Springs, they all make Hot Water and the all have happy owners, and they all deliver happines, fun, enjoyment and they bring relationships closer together.
I don't care how you clean your filter, I care how I clean mine.
I don't care if you have 100% no by pass filtration, my water is clean.
I don't care if you are TP or FF, I pay my energy bills because they are mine, now you pay yours.
I don't care too much about any of you, but I do care a whole lot about the 3 new deliveries that we had today, and I am dedicated to see that they are happy and enjoy their experience for years to come.
I truely wish you all the best, but we are all different and not the same, again that is what is good about this forum. It is controversial, it is honest and we believe it to be, it is refreshing, enlightning, educational, and some times even a waste of time.
thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you......
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I believe that means that none of the water is being filtered as it runs from returns to the jet pumps and back into the spa through the jets. Am I wrong?
That is correct, as they are not part of the filtration system. The filtration system, however, is not bypassed in any way when it is on (usually 24hrs a day).
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I've said it many times before and I guess I'll have to keep on saying it:
The biggest advantage to having 100% No-Bypass Filtration is that EVERY SINGLE DROP OF WATER GETS FILTERED BEFORE IT ENTERS THE SPA'S PUMP, HEATER, AND PLUMBING. No hair, dead skin, dirt, toenails, or cheezy puffs gets sucked into the guts of your spa.
I would rather have my drinking water filtered before it goes into my stomach, heart, lungs, and digestive system. Wouldn't you?
Does anyone want to contest that point?
Terminator
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I've said it many times before and I guess I'll have to keep on saying it:
The biggest advantage to having 100% No-Bypass Filtration is that EVERY SINGLE DROP OF WATER GETS FILTERED BEFORE IT ENTERS THE SPA'S PUMP, HEATER, AND PLUMBING. No hair, dead skin, dirt, toenails, or cheezy puffs gets sucked into the guts of your spa.
I would rather have my drinking water filtered before it goes into my stomach, heart, lungs, and digestive system. Wouldn't you?
Does anyone want to contest that point?
Terminator
If we get into our Hot Tubs and the water is sparkling clean, crystal clear and our toe nails don't fall off, don't all spas do the same thing, suck water in and shoot it out the jets for the purpose that we bought the Hot Tub?
I understand your belief and your understanding of your product line, but your pumps suck water through filters that somewhat "restrict or retard" the ability to suck maximum gallons per minute. This does not make your product line better than mine or others, even if you do filter your drinking water.
This is not about contesting your point of view, for it is your point of view and the only way you see it. That does not mean it is the only way a good Hot Tub works. All Hot Tubs have anti-entrapment suction fittings that will not allow my toe nails to be sucked in, but then, remove your filters for cleaning and leave the pumps running, they will suck your toe nails into the guts of your spa.
I believe you have a good product line and I believe there are many other products that are "equally" good choices that consumers have made. I understand your pont of view, you must believe in what you sell. I believe many of my industry associates represent a respectable product that is good as well, even in the filtration process. That makes it a consumers choice.
Actually, we are not even competitors because we sell the same concept. Our competitors are the RV's, Boats, Big Screens, Vacations, Motorcycles etc. Things people don't necessarily need, but yet they spend their discreationary dollars on.
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I've said it many times before and I guess I'll have to keep on saying it:
The biggest advantage to having 100% No-Bypass Filtration is that EVERY SINGLE DROP OF WATER GETS FILTERED BEFORE IT ENTERS THE SPA'S PUMP, HEATER, AND PLUMBING. No hair, dead skin, dirt, toenails, or cheezy puffs gets sucked into the guts of your spa.
I would rather have my drinking water filtered before it goes into my stomach, heart, lungs, and digestive system. Wouldn't you?
Does anyone want to contest that point?
Terminator
I've been drinking unfiltered water out of the ground my whole life without any major medical problems.
but the thought of drinking water out of ANY spa made my tummy quessy.
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My bourbon is trippled filtered.
Nothing worse than sitting back having a tall mint julip and BAM! ....toenail!
/gotta go to classier bars.
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If we get into our Hot Tubs and the water is sparkling clean, crystal clear and our toe nails don't fall off, don't all spas do the same thing, suck water in and shoot it out the jets for the purpose that we bought the Hot Tub?
I understand your belief and your understanding of your product line, but your pumps suck water through filters that somewhat "restrict or retard" the ability to suck maximum gallons per minute. This does not make your product line better than mine or others, even if you do filter your drinking water.
This is not about contesting your point of view, for it is your point of view and the only way you see it. That does not mean it is the only way a good Hot Tub works. All Hot Tubs have anti-entrapment suction fittings that will not allow my toe nails to be sucked in, but then, remove your filters for cleaning and leave the pumps running, they will suck your toe nails into the guts of your spa.
I believe you have a good product line and I believe there are many other products that are "equally" good choices that consumers have made. I understand your pont of view, you must believe in what you sell. I believe many of my industry associates represent a respectable product that is good as well, even in the filtration process. That makes it a consumers choice.
Actually, we are not even competitors because we sell the same concept. Our competitors are the RV's, Boats, Big Screens, Vacations, Motorcycles etc. Things people don't necessarily need, but yet they spend their discreationary dollars on.
Man Obi-wanMcD you said a mouthful!
If more people in the industry would just understand that we drive people to buy those things instead of a spa with our ways of selling.
You want to sell more spas then don't do an ad that says "Five person spa with waterfalls $3995" most buyers have no idea what that means.
Do an ad that says "The perfect place for family conversation, Get one on one with your loved ones"
If you confuse customers enough about the differances with spas they will eventually give up and buy a big screen!
This was the point to my rant....Who cares how you insulate your spa if it is similar to other brands in power consumption! Who cares if you have 5 filters that have the coolest name in the industry as long as both stay just as clean.
I can tell you this...I see more water quality issues from how a spa is maintained then I do from how it filters!
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but the thought of drinking water out of ANY spa made my tummy quessy.
(http://watkinsnet.net/Media/E-CommerceProductCatalog/33222.jpg)
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Well, I sure hope that HotSpring continues to be the only spa company that offers 100% No-Bypass Filtration.
I'm tickled pink that dealers selling OTHER brands don't think very highly of 100% No-Bypass Filtration.
I'm proud that most people would rather have their spa's internals protected than not.
It's a BIG reason HS has been the most popular brand of spa WITH CONSUMERS for 20 consecutive years. :)
Terminator
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I've said it many times before and I guess I'll have to keep on saying it:
The biggest advantage to having 100% No-Bypass Filtration is that EVERY SINGLE DROP OF WATER GETS FILTERED BEFORE IT ENTERS THE SPA'S PUMP, HEATER, AND PLUMBING. No hair, dead skin, dirt, toenails, or cheezy puffs gets sucked into the guts of your spa.
I would rather have my drinking water filtered before it goes into my stomach, heart, lungs, and digestive system. Wouldn't you?
Does anyone want to contest that point?
Terminator
If you are already turning the water over around 100 times per day, why would you feel the need to stifle the main pumps by putting a filter on them?
Running the pumps through the filter is necessary if you only use a 5-10gpm pump for normal filtration.
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I've said it many times before and I guess I'll have to keep on saying it:
The biggest advantage to having 100% No-Bypass Filtration is that EVERY SINGLE DROP OF WATER GETS FILTERED BEFORE IT ENTERS THE SPA'S PUMP, HEATER, AND PLUMBING. No hair, dead skin, dirt, toenails, or cheezy puffs gets sucked into the guts of your spa.
I would rather have my drinking water filtered before it goes into my stomach, heart, lungs, and digestive system. Wouldn't you?
Does anyone want to contest that point?
Terminator
I will.... ;D
What you're suggesting really encompasses about 5% of ownership and is more marketing than anything else.
The HUGE majority of water issues isn't lack of filtration, instead, it's watercare and the lack of knowledge associated with it. I owned a Beachcomber for years with one of the most basic filtration system (though industry standard I might add) and had great water quality. Care to contest that?
This is coming from a guy who sells a product where the filtration aspect of our product is a key proprietary feature intended to sell more hot tubs. I understand our positioning as well as yours very clearly. It's marketing my friend, not a sales pitch.
All of the above said with respect to you and your product BTW. Just telling it like it is... ;)
Steve
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The HUGE majority of water issues isn't lack of filtration, instead, it's watercare and the lack of knowledge associated with it.
Steve
Agreed 100%
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I have taken time from my busy schedule to draw this diagram which makes it easy as pie to understand.
(http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b206/EastTexasSpa/8813a33d.jpg)
And that's that. :)
Terminator
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Well, I sure hope that HotSpring continues to be the only spa company that offers 100% No-Bypass Filtration.
I'm tickled pink that dealers selling OTHER brands don't think very highly of 100% No-Bypass Filtration.
I'm proud that most people would rather have their spa's internals protected than not.
It's a BIG reason HS has been the most popular brand of spa WITH CONSUMERS for 20 consecutive years. :)
Terminator
OMG ::) Starting to sound like the wack job from CO. ;D
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I have taken time from my busy schedule to draw this diagram which makes it easy as pie to understand.
(http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b206/EastTexasSpa/filtration.jpg)
And that's that. :)
Terminator
The sryinge and sperm were my favorite. The toe was a nice touch too. ;D
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OMG ::) Starting to sound like the wack job from CO. ;D
No, no, no...I'm not belittling anyone else's methods. Again, I'm GLAD ya'll do it the way you do. I'm just pointing out the simple logic of having clean water entering the pump. What's the misunderstanding? ;D
Terminator
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I have taken time from my busy schedule to draw this diagram which makes it easy as pie to understand.
(http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b206/EastTexasSpa/filtration.jpg)
And that's that. :)
Terminator
I see your daughter had the day off from school! I'm glad this thread had an infusion of humor, it was needed.
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I'm glad this thread had an infusion of humor, it was needed.
Presented in a simple form for some of the dealers' sake.
Terminator
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Poor attempt at humor here...
If a pump sucks water in to filter and is considered the best way of doing it, wouldn't we call it a "SUCK" instead of a "PUMP"? ;)
Steve
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Term,
Concerning your "diagram". I am curious. What is the middle item that is in the exit pipe (to the right of the pump)? If it's what I think it is, there is one very upset customer out there.
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Term,
Concerning your "diagram". I am curious. What is the middle item that is in the exit pipe (to the right of the pump)? If it's what I think it is, there is one very upset customer out there.
It ain't a Bobbit, if that's what you're thinking. It was just some curly hair. There's a Cheeto in there, too. :-[
Terminator
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I see you didn't contest my response where I contested your response (I think that's right??) with filtration...
An oversight or considered somewhat accurate? ??? ;)
Steve
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I see you didn't contest my response where I contested your response (I think that's right??) with filtration...
An oversight or considered somewhat accurate? ??? ;)
Steve
I'm sorry, I didn't realize you were serious.
I have no argument regarding the water quality. I never have and never will. I realize that the CLEAN water exiting a HotSpring pump mixes with the dirty water already in the spa the same as everyone else's DIRTY water exiting the pump mixes with the dirty water already in the spa. When it's in the spa and there are people in the spa, it's DIRTY.
BUT, ours is CLEAN again before it enters the pump. Cleansed of hair and dead skin. The pump doesn't get hair and dead skin sucked into it. I imagine that if most consumers understood that point better, HotSpring would sell even more spas than they already do.
I'm sure the water IN THE SPA (not the pump or heater or plumbing) of your Beachcomber was just as clean as anyone else. No argument here. :)
Terminator
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You want to know why this argument has holes in it...
Hotsprings spa customers jut like every other spa customers will have water issues just like everyone else.
The problem with being such a "popular brand" is that there are many Hotsprings spas out there, in turn many on this forum own one. We all read posts from Hotsprings owners on here asking for help with cloudy water and stinky water., just like any other brand.
In some cases Hotsprings dealers may encourage a false sence of secrurity by exploiting the no bypass/multiple filter filtration, as a way to be lax on ones chemical routine.
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Hotsprings spa customers jut like every other spa customers will have water issues just like everyone else.
Agreed, see the above post.
The problem with being such a "popular brand"..
Not a problem for anyone but the competition. :)
Terminator
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You want to know why this argument has holes in it...
Hotsprings spa customers jut like every other spa customers will have water issues just like everyone else.
The problem with being such a "popular brand" is that there are many Hotsprings spas out there, in turn many on this forum own one. We all read posts from Hotsprings owners on here asking for help with cloudy water and stinky water., just like any other brand.
In some cases Hotsprings dealers may encourage a false sence of secrurity by exploiting the no bypass/multiple filter filtration, as a way to be lax on ones chemical routine.
I believe Terms elaborate diagram concerns contaminates detrimental to vital componentry: Jet Pump wet ends, Heater Elements, valves, diverters, etc... Not with water quality. Water is water. it all needs to be treated the same way.
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LOL!!!!!
Hate to break it to you Term but there are some parts of the country where Hotsprings doesn't have the market share.
Thats good because if you guys got all of it, you'd be on here by yourself. ;)
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LOL!!!!!
Hate to break it to you Term but there are some parts of the country where Hotsprings doesn't have the market share.
Really? Where?
Terminator
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I believe Terms elaborate diagram concerns contaminates detrimental to vital componentry: Jet Pump wet ends, Heater Elements, valves, diverters, etc... Not with water quality. Water is water. it all needs to be treated the same way.
I loved the drawing (Term don't give up the day job)
If you or anyone can give me one once of proof that Hotsprings heaters, pumps, ozones, and other vital equipment have a lower failure rate due to no bypass filtration than please post it.
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I loved the drawing (Term don't give up the day job)
If you or anyone can give me one once of proof that Hotsprings heaters, pumps, ozones, and other vital equipment have a lower failure rate due to no bypass filtration than please post it.
um....IS there any data on any products/brand failure rate?
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Really? Where?
Terminator
Just put down the koolaid and I'll tell you. ;D ;D ;D
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I loved the drawing (Term don't give up the day job)
If you or anyone can give me one once of proof that Hotsprings heaters, pumps, ozones, and other vital equipment have a lower failure rate due to no bypass filtration than please post it.
I can't. I was just clarifying the details of the diagram. I could never justify such a blanket statement. Touchy???
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If you or anyone can give me one once of proof that Hotsprings heaters, pumps, ozones, and other vital equipment have a lower failure rate due to no bypass filtration than please post it.
I don't believe that information exists. At your request, I did go back and look over an older post regarding this same issue. I made the statement that our company (East Texas Spa) had only had to replace 8 jet pumps in 21 years. Good ol' JMcD was astounded and even figured out our failure rate was about .002% or something like that. Chas admitted he had replaced maybe 6 pumps in 20 years and Guzz had replaced about 2 in 9 years. That ain't too shabby. ;D
Do ya'll see the same type longevity with yours? I hope so. It's a shame when the customers' spas end up not lasting 20 years or more. We (HS dealers) seem to have those in abundance. I always imagined it was the 100% No-Bypass Filtration that had a lot to do with it, but it might be because of other factors. I just don't know for sure.
Terminator
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I can't. I was just clarifying the details of the diagram. I could never justify such a blanket statement. Touchy???
No dealer on this board can, regardless of Brand. It's a false challange.
Anyhow,
So there is no benift to having the water filtered before it is propelled through the plumbing and out the jets?
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No dealer on this board can, regardless of Brand. It's a false challange.
Anyhow,
So there is no benift to having the water filtered before it is propelled through the plumbing and out the jets?
To each his/her own. Logical thinking would suggest that there is a benefit. Most concern has to do with water chemistry however.
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Anyhow,
So there is no benift to having the water filtered before it is propelled through the plumbing and out the jets?
I guess not, according to everyone on here that doesn't sell a spa that does filter all the water. :-[
Oh, well. To each his or her own.
Terminator
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This is a great (funny) thread ;D...I've never been hit by a high speed toenail as it's propelled through a jet, but it doesn't sound like fun. On the other hand, I don't cut my toenails in the tub. I've never been disgusted by 1000's of hairs floating by me as I soak. Shut off jets and water is crystal clear just as when I got in once the aeration clears (I guess the hairs could be stuck in the pumps? ;)). I would hope that a few hairs don't cause my pump to fail. Centrifugal pumps are capable of handling some solids as there are relatively large internal clearances (not that I would expect solids to be in my tub anyway). The only thing I'm worried about when soaking is safe water (i.e. bacteria free) and the sanitizer is what deals with that issue. My $.02
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This is a great (funny) thread ;D
DAMMIT, THIS AIN'T NO FUNNY BUSINESS!!!! >:( >:( >:(
THIS IS TALKING ABOUT HOT TUBS ON THE INTERNET, IT DOESN'T GET ANY MORE IMPORTANT THAN THIS!!!
THIS IS LIFE AND DEATH! DON'T YOU GET IT!!!!!!!! ::)
Terminator
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DAMMIT, THIS AIN'T NO FUNNY BUSINESS!!!! >:( >:( >:(
THIS IS TALKING ABOUT HOT TUBS ON THE INTERNET, IT DOESN'T GET ANY MORE IMPORTANT THAN THIS!!!
THIS IS LIFE AND DEATH! DON'T YOU GET IT!!!!!!!! ::)
Terminator
you can shout all you want as long as you don't tell me to put a circ pump where it shouldn't be...lol ::)
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So in our vast knowledge combined, what would be the relationship to pump longevity (and other spa componants such as heater, pump seals, etc.) when considering the 2 aspects in question?
Failure due to improper watercare ____ %
Failure due to industry std filtration ____ %
I'll start with my best guess based on experience...
Failure due to improper watercare 99 %
Failure due to industry std filtration 1 %
Which in turn makes my 5% comment earlier a very high guess to the importance of it.
I do like the marketing aspect of it. It's the same reason Beachcomber makes Protec, Hydropool makes self clean, Arctic makes perimeter lock and so on...
It's the same reason why I could go on about the advantages of self clean and the benefits of pressurized filtration in a sales presentation...It's the reason why I sold a boat load of Beachcomber's back in the day...
Steve
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Running the pumps through the filter is necessary if you only use a 5-10gpm pump for normal filtration.
Easy now - if your tub ran no-bypass whenever the jets were turned on, it might be able to stay clean and safe with less (power consuming) circ pumps like HS...
;)
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You talking to me?
If so, I wouldn't even venture a guesstimate.
We (East Texas Spa) have stayed with one product for 21 years now. We have had great success with that product. We have had very few failure rates with our jet pumps. If others are having as great a success as us, that's wonderful and bodes well for our industry. If others are having less success with their spas, I am sorry for them and their customers.
That's about it. :)
Terminator
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LOL!!!!!
Hate to break it to you Term but there are some parts of the country where Hotsprings doesn't have the market share.
Thats good because if you guys got all of it, you'd be on here by yourself. ;)
Really? Where?
Chasinator
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So in our vast knowledge combined, what would be the relationship to pump longevity (and other spa componants such as heater, pump seals, etc.) when considering the 2 aspects in question?
Failure due to improper watercare ____ %
Failure due to industry std filtration ____ %
I'll start with my best guess based on experience...
Failure due to improper watercare 99 %
Failure due to industry std filtration 1 %
Which in turn makes my 5% comment earlier a very high guess to the importance of it.
I do like the marketing aspect of it. It's the same reason Beachcomber makes Protec, Hydropool makes self clean, Arctic makes perimeter lock and so on...
It's the same reason why I could go on about the advantages of self clean and the benefits of pressurized filtration in a sales presentation...It's the reason why I sold a boat load of Beachcomber's back in the day...
Steve
Does this mean that HS owners are a lot better at water maint.? This post says 99% of failure is because of improper water care and HS dealers say they have very low pump failure :)
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Does this mean that HS owners are a lot better at water maint.? This post says 99% of failure is because of improper water care and HS dealers say they have very low pump failure :)
I took it ashe was saying improper water care and filtration make up 100% of the pump failures. :-/
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So in our vast knowledge combined, what would be the relationship to pump longevity (and other spa componants such as heater, pump seals, etc.) when considering the 2 aspects in question?
Failure due to improper watercare ____ %
Failure due to industry std filtration ____ %
I'll start with my best guess based on experience...
Failure due to improper watercare 99 %
Failure due to industry std filtration 1 %
Which in turn makes my 5% comment earlier a very high guess to the importance of it.
I do like the marketing aspect of it. It's the same reason Beachcomber makes Protec, Hydropool makes self clean, Arctic makes perimeter lock and so on...
It's the same reason why I could go on about the advantages of self clean and the benefits of pressurized filtration in a sales presentation...It's the reason why I sold a boat load of Beachcomber's back in the day...
Steve
Customer neglect in maintaining clean filters can skew those opinionated %'s tremendously. Every manufacturer can have issues with this and it has nothing to do with water chemistry. That is if you are not including cleaning your filters in your improper watercare %'s. However, I do agree that improper watercare is of a much higher % to failure rate then the filtering sysem itself. Unlikely 99% to 1%. ;)
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You talking to me?
We have had very few failure rates with our jet pumps. If others are having as great a success as us, that's wonderful and bodes well for our industry.
Have you had that same success with heaters?
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Now I'm genuinely curious here...When a jet pump fails, what's the usual issue? Seals, motor?
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âIndustry standard.â
Hmm.
Prior to 1965 the "Industry Standard" in the automotive realm was bias ply tires, drum brakes, carburetors, and no seat belts.
There has to be a leader in every industry, or the 'standard' will prevail.
Of course, as I have postulated before, since there are more HotSpring tubs out there than most other brands combined, it sort of make HS the 'standard.'
Also - did you fine folks know that HotSpring is the FIRST tub to be certified by the NSF? No, I'm not talking about the fact that Sundance claims to have the only NSF filter certified by the NSF - they don't, BTW HotSpring already has NSF certified filters - but HotSpring is the ONLY tub currently certified by the NSF for OVERALL spa safety and performance for the ENTIRE SPA.
Ha.
(Did I say that?)
:) ;)
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as you don't tell me to put a circ pump where it shouldn't be...lol ::)
I know what you mean; I was going to suggest we're getting a bit over the top here too but after the last time I chimed in and was chastized I'm afraid I'll get that other guy to send his circ pump warning my way. I know circ pumps are small but they're not THAT small!
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I'm sorry, I didn't realize you were serious.
I have no argument regarding the water quality. I never have and never will. I realize that the CLEAN water exiting a HotSpring pump mixes with the dirty water already in the spa the same as everyone else's DIRTY water exiting the pump mixes with the dirty water already in the spa. When it's in the spa and there are people in the spa, it's DIRTY.
BUT, ours is CLEAN again before it enters the pump. Cleansed of hair and dead skin. The pump doesn't get hair and dead skin sucked into it. I imagine that if most consumers understood that point better, HotSpring would sell even more spas than they already do.
I'm sure the water IN THE SPA (not the pump or heater or plumbing) of your Beachcomber was just as clean as anyone else. No argument here. :)
Terminator
I think we all agree that you belive what you (imagine) think, and we certainly don't want to challenge that. You show such passion, you could be confused with another passionate poster not allowed here.
But, your implication all of these gross solids that you say are sucked in through fittings, which won't allow them to pass through the fittings, are somehow doing damage to everyone else's Hot Tubs if they don't have YOUR concept of "no-bypass" filtration. how is it we are able to sell them?
But then, your statement above says "I'm sure the water IN THE SPA (not the pump or heater or plumbing) of your Beachcomber was just as clean as anyone else. No argument here", isn't this the source of of pump suction that sends water through the pump, heater and plumbing where you say all those nasty things getting sucked in.
Apparently you must believe our hair falls out, our toenails are sucked off, our skin dies and falls off, and all of those other things in your illustration (that you imagine) are pulled through those tiny little suction holes in the foot well fittings after we enter the Tub. I can see you really believe all of this and that is begining to worry some of us here.
I think you need to take your blinders off and agree there are some other brands and worthy products for consumers, OTHER THAN YOUR BRAND and biased opinion.
BTW, I am not your competitor, nor are the other dealers that sell other brands of products, the competitors are the other alternate choices for discreationary spending that I mentioned earlier. That make you an industry associate with a different choice.
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Easy now - if your tub ran no-bypass whenever the jets were turned on, it might be able to stay clean and safe with less (power consuming) circ pumps like HS...
;)
The Sundance circ. pump uses around .2 amps more than the Laing circulation pump.
The water going through the pumps should be clean enough since the body of water is being turned over 100 times per day.
If your pumps didn't have to run through the filter, they would stay powerful longer.
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I don't believe that information exists. At your request, I did go back and look over an older post regarding this same issue. I made the statement that our company (East Texas Spa) had only had to replace 8 jet pumps in 21 years. Good ol' JMcD was astounded and even figured out our failure rate was about .002% or something like that. Chas admitted he had replaced maybe 6 pumps in 20 years and Guzz had replaced about 2 in 9 years. That ain't too shabby. ;D
I agree that's exceptional. In all honesty I will tell you that in 20 years we have replaced more pumps than that.
Now don't set me in your sites for saying this. I personally know of two Hotsprings owners here that have replaced the pump in their spa. In both cases the spa was within the warranty period which is far less than 20 years. Also keep in mind that I live in a town that is only 16,000 people.
I beleive that overall poor water chemistry over a long period of time will take pumps and heaters out prematurely of any spa brand. Even a Hotsprings.
Do ya'll see the same type longevity with yours? I hope so. It's a shame when the customers' spas end up not lasting 20 years or more. We (HS dealers) seem to have those in abundance. I always imagined it was the 100% No-Bypass Filtration that had a lot to do with it, but it might be because of other factors. I just don't know for sure.
Terminator
Yes we have old spas out as well. I would like to clarify that just because a pump or a heater needs to replaced after 10 or so years, there is no reason to assume that that spa will not last another 10 or so years.
Lets face it term, if any spa was that superior, we'd have all kinds of time to work on all those other brands. Because we wouldn't have to servicing our own 15 to 20 year old spas.
I have always thought that Hotsprings was a fine spa. Are they the best? who really knows!
I don't want to ruffle any feathers but I do get tired of the constant claims of superiority.
It's been said many times, if no bypass filtration were the very best way to do things why is Hotsprings the only company that does it. ???
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I believe Chas and Term get an advertising kick back from HS... ;)
Hey, as long as you guys believe it, that's all that matters right? ;D
Anyway...I think it's move on time... (for me anyway)
Steve
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Yes we have old spas out as well. I would like to clarify that just because a pump or a heater needs to replaced after 10 or so years, there is no reason to assume that that spa will not last another 10 or so years.
Lets face it term, if any spa was that superior, we'd have all kinds of time to work on all those other brands. Because we wouldn't have to servicing our own 15 to 20 year old spas.
I have always thought that Hotsprings was a fine spa. Are they the best? who really knows!
I don't want to ruffle any feathers but I do get tired of the constant claims of superiority.
It's been said many times, if no bypass filtration were the very best way to do things why is Hotsprings the only company that does it. ???
I believe most here feel the same and you just voiced it.
As for your last comment my dear, it all goes back to marketing. It's why they do it and that's OK.
Steve
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I can't. I was just clarifying the details of the diagram. I could never justify such a blanket statement. Touchy???
No I'm not touchy. I'm actually using this debate to help get my game on for my upcoming weekend Home Show. This is great practice! ;D ;D ;D
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.............There has to be a leader in every industry, or the 'standard' will prevail.
Of course, as I have postulated before, since there are more HotSpring tubs out there than most other brands combined, it sort of make HS the 'standard.'
Also - did you fine folks know that HotSpring is the FIRST tub to be certified by the NSF? No, I'm not talking about the fact that Sundance claims to have the only NSF filter certified by the NSF - they don't, BTW HotSpring already has NSF certified filters - but HotSpring is the ONLY tub currently certified by the NSF for OVERALL spa safety and performance for the ENTIRE SPA.
Ha.
(Did I say that?):) ;)
So you believe this too? Did you have these certifications before the heater fires? This is begining to show a passionate belief, are you trying to say there are no other leaders in this industry that have not contributed to the evolution and development of the products we use not to mention the acrylic shells that you sell today? Sundance, D1, Marquis, combined production does not exceed HS? This is not about number competition, this is about the "kool-aide" theory, imagination and what you have been taught to believe.
What happend to your "standard" with co-extruded ABS as you now have adapted so well to acrylic that HS sold against for 20 years.
When will HS dealers take those blinders off and admit there are other very good alternate choices for the consumer, D1 for instance which originated from one of HS largets dealers in the '70's. They make a nice Hot Tub don't they?
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Everybody drinks their own respective Kool-Aid if you ask me. Isn't that the reason why you're all so passionate about the products that you sell? It just so happens that the shear #'s of HS owners and dealers cause animosity in the industry. And yes, JMcd I think D1 makes a fine product.
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JMcD, you go right ahead an keep taking your cutesy little digs at me. I imagine everyone on here sees through them the same way I do. I don't mind at all. I'm surprised that there aren't more people on here that like to direct snide little remarks towards me as I often leave the door wide open for folks to do so. ;D
BUT, you continue to obfuscate and skirt the issue by continually rehashing over and over and over ad nauseum about water care being the same. Fine, we get it already, no argument here, done deal, no worries.
My only stance on this issue is plainly stated and I even drew a picture specifically for you. I don't know what brand you sell, couldn't care less. But, if you'd be so kind to answer this question in a succinct fashion, I would be grateful and be able to go to my reward with a joyful heart:
Is it better to filter all the water before it enters the pump, heater, and plumbing? Yes or No
And if by some miracle of the Almighty you actually answer "No", then why on earth not? ;D
Terminator (The Unkind to Orphans)
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It cracks me up how defensive everyone gets about their spas and they all sell against HotSpring. ;D It is like going up against the World Champs, day in and day out, year after year after year......
Again, for the record, I'm GLAD everyone does what they do. I'm GLAD you sell what you believe in and stick with it, for the most part. I'm dang sure glad we do what we do and so are our customers. Are our spas perfect, nope, but they ain't too shabby.
16,000 Envoys sold last year. Any other COMPANY sell that many spas?
I'd love to hear some figures.
Terminator
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May I just interpolate (heck, others are using a thesaurus
why not me? ;D ) with the function of a sump pump...
Granted there's no heater to be concerned with but if the question is, do these 56 frame pool pumps in our spas have an issue with particles small enough to go through a skimmer basket, then I will side with the NO's.
Steve
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Ya'll have a good day and sorry if I hurt anyone's feelings. Ya'll keep doing what you do and I'll do what I do and we'll all have a Merry Christmas! ;D
Terminator
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No feelings here...that were hurt anyway... ;)
Did that not make sense term? I thought that the fact my sump pump has lasted years without any prefilter (not even a skimmer basket) that it was a good anaolgy with regards to your question...
No harm, no foul buddy! ;) It's all good.
Steve
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It cracks me up how defensive everyone gets about their spas and they all sell against HotSpring. ;D It is like going up against the World Champs, day in and day out, year after year after year......
Again, for the record, I'm GLAD everyone does what they do. I'm GLAD you sell what you believe in and stick with it, for the most part. I'm dang sure glad we do what we do and so are our customers. Are our spas perfect, nope, but they ain't too shabby.
16,000 Envoys sold last year. Any other COMPANY sell that many spas?
I'd love to hear some figures.
Terminator
Doesn't Chrysler sell a shi*load of cars? I'll let you ponder that one too. ;)
BIG = BEST? I'm not sure what your point was with that? ??? I'm gonna go ask JA for his opinion... ;D
Steve
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I am not going to comment on the No By Pass....but regarding Term and Steve...who both I respect and admire....I will say that there is much to many brands that we all could mention certain things about but I think we as always wanting to be courteous and respectful of each other choose not to....For all the bickering that as gone on here of late....I would hope that people will actually see that very very few spas ever get slammed as it has been mentioned but the Marketing of basically 2 company's does get hammered from time to time....but it is the marketing and the sales tactics that are held in such low regard not the products....
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I couldn't even begin to add anything to this thread that hasn't already been added. 8) But......I will say this however......
"Happy Birthday to you,
Happy Birthday to you,
Happy Birthday to my 10 year old HS Sovreign thats never had the first service call EVER.............
Happy Birthday to you"
;D
-Sarge
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Look out Sarge, you're going to reap the whirlwind!
By the way, congratulations! :)
Terminator
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Only ten? Well, don't worry, it'll grow up.
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Got her broke in finally. I just had a lady call me that has an '86 HS that won't run. She just drained it and refilled. Told her she had an air lock and sure enough, we fixed it over the phone. She's happy and I'm happy cause I can keep sitting here in my drawers with you fine folks.
Terminator
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Every tried these kind 'o drawers?
(http://www.insulgard.com/images/drawers_670145_large.jpg)
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Maybe I should have. Ol' Meanness just called and told me we're going to have another mouth to feed. Guess I gotta sell the one we already got.
Terminator
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Maybe I should have. Ol' Meanness just called and told me we're going to have another mouth to feed. Guess I gotta sell the one we already got.
Terminator
WHAT??? Are you serious? Did something happen in Australia? I thought you didn't put out! Congratualtions!
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WHAT??? Are you serious? Did something happen in Australia? I thought you didn't put out! Congratualtions!
Well, I put out since we were out of the country and I didn't think anyone would find out. Danged if I didn't put out a little too much. Wished I'd a had some no by-pass going on. :-[
Well, it was Valentine's, so that was her time of the year anyway, regardless.
Thank you for your condolences.
Terminator
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Wow. Congratulations.
How old is the one for sale? Housebroke? Can they sell tubs and Patio Furniture by any chance? You care how close their new home is? Will you take a check? How much is shipping?
(Man, you sure have to ask a lot of questions when you buy over the 'Net).
;)
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Age: Almost 8
Housebrokeness: Acceptable except when Daddy's acting a fool, then minor leaks occur
Salesmanship: She can talk me into just about anything
Relocation: I hear Southern Cal is a nice place to visit, they just don't know how to make cold weather spas
Payment: Check, Cash, Case of Beer (Shiner Bock)
Shipping: If you're paying by beer, I'll bring her myself!
Terminator
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CONGRATS!!! Term
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Wow. Congratulations.
How old is the one for sale? Housebroke? Can they sell tubs and Patio Furniture by any chance? You care how close their new home is? Will you take a check? How much is shipping?
(Man, you sure have to ask a lot of questions when you buy over the 'Net).
;)
Chas,
I thought you knew better than to buy these high ticket items over the internet. You don't know anything about the company background, the warranty, who is going to service it? You really should stick with a local product.
:)
Congrats again!
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Wow. Congratulations.
How old is the one for sale? Housebroke? Can they sell tubs and Patio Furniture by any chance? You care how close their new home is? Will you take a check? How much is shipping?
(Man, you sure have to ask a lot of questions when you buy over the 'Net).
;)
now that was classic!! nice job chas
oh, by the way te....john. congrats
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CONGRATS!!! Term
Thank you kindly...didn't know I still had it in me. (I really didn't)
Terminator
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Thank you kindly...didn't know I still had it in me. (I really didn't)
Terminator
Apparently there was some by-pass afterall!!!
Congrats!!
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Thank you kindly...didn't know I still had it in me. (I really didn't)
Terminator
Congratulations .... :D
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Congrats buddy!!!
Bill Cosby said that your not really a parent until you have to and get to hear things like;
"He's looking at me!!" "He touched my foot!"
I feel for the Mrs. with your propensity for photos.... ;) ;D 8)
BTW, this has to have something to do with by-pass filteration....One of those little buggers obviously got by somehow@@ ;)
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Baby's happen! Parents are made through experience!
Congratulations to you and Ms. Term!
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Congrats Term. Now your daughter will have someone to play with. Â Are you sure it didn't happen during one of your lunch hour wet tests? Â ;D
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Are you sure it didn't happen during one of you lunch hour wet tests? ;D
What's strange is that all 3 times Ol' Meanness has conceived, I was there when it happened and knew it at that instant. I knew this time because of an equipment malfunction while we were Down Under and am considering naming this child Houdini due to his propensity for escape.
Thank you again for all of your condolences. They are appreciated.
SpermiTerminator
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What's strange is that all 3 times Ol' Meanness has conceived, I was there when it happened and knew it at that instant. I knew this time because of an equipment malfunction while we were Down Under and am considering naming this child Houdini due to his propensity for escape.
Thank you again for all of your condolences. They are appreciated.
SpermiTerminator
1st things 1st (hate that saying, like 1st thing would be 3rd.....anyways...) its a very good thing that you were there for each of the times ya'll conceived.
as far as the "equipment malfunction"........sounds like ol' meanness will have to get you some of those blue pills for her next valentines day date ;) ;D
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Sorry for bumping this post as it had all but died, but I wanted to clarify some things:
1) It is ONLY the AquaFlo pump on the 880s that I am talking about. The 780s still use the Laing circulation pump, similar to the one that Hotspring uses.
2) The costs to run the pumps. We will use watts rather than amps because amps can be misleading.
Hotspring 505 Laing pump running 24hrs/day @ .25/KwHr = $15.30
Sundance AquaFlo circ pump running 24hrs/day @ .25/KwHr = $25.20
3) Amount of water filter per day
Hotspring 505 Laing pump @ 8gpm = around 11.5k gallons of water per day
Sundance AquaFlo circ pump @ 33gpm = around 47.5k gallons of water per day
Neither Hotspring's nor Sundance's filtration system would allow cheese puffs, toes, syringes, or bottles to enter the pumps. If you could explain how they could, I would love to hear it. Even Sundance's pump suctions are designed to limit sand getting into them.
I hope this clears some things up.
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Neither Hotspring's nor Sundance's filtration system would allow cheese puffs, toes, syringes, or bottles to enter the pumps. If you could explain how they could, I would love to hear it. Even Sundance's pump suctions are designed to limit sand getting into them.
I hope this clears some things up.
Are you saying that Terminators diagram of filtration was exagerated? I find that hard to belive. :-[
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Thanks for the clarification.
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I think Terminator, Chas or any other Hotspring dealer is justified in selling no by-pass filtering as an advantage for there product. It does do what they are saying and it is an exclusive feature to Hotsprings. No by-pass filtering is definitly not a bad thing. It is not like they are lying about a feature. Shake What Your Momma Gave Ya, sell your best features, it maybe important to some people.
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I've said it many times before and I guess I'll have to keep on saying it: The biggest advantage to having 100% No-Bypass Filtration is that EVERY SINGLE DROP OF WATER GETS FILTERED BEFORE IT ENTERS THE SPA'S PUMP, HEATER, AND PLUMBING. No hair, dead skin, dirt, toenails, or cheezy puffs gets sucked into the guts of your spa.Terminator
You make a good point Term. My J385 came with covers for the foot well intakes. They are a pain. The tech said they were meant to keep pine needles from entering the pumps and they needed to be on and periodically cleaned to preserve the warranty. He said a few needles wouldn't be an issue but that some tubs were loaded with them and it destroys the pumps.
However, he said that since my tub was indoors, pine needles wouldn't be an issue so I could take mine off. ;)
It seems to me the discussion here isn't about which brand has the cleanest water. It's about which brand protects its pumps the best. That is how I read Term's posts.
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It seems to me the discussion here isn't about which brand has the cleanest water. It's about which brand protects its pumps the best.
EXACTLY!!! Thank you Snowbird! It was simply my delineation, in black and white, of the whole impetus behind 100% No-bypass filtration. It was met with obfuscation. I'm glad you saw through it. :)
Merry Christmas!
Terminator
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I think Terminator, Chas or any other Hotspring dealer is justified in selling no by-pass filtering as an advantage for there product. It does do what they are saying and it is an exclusive feature to Hotsprings. No by-pass filtering is definitly not a bad thing. It is not like they are lying about a feature. Shake What Your Momma Gave Ya, sell your best features, it maybe important to some people.
I agree .. It does mean something to me. My tub is outside and leaf stems, pine needles, lady bugs,bark mulch, sand ect. ect. No one will make me believe that some of those things have no effect on the pumps year after year. It just make sense to me it is better to keep as much as possible out of the equipment. Sundance must also feel it is important if they recommend the socks on the bypass intakes
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We are ONLY talking about the Sundance 880 series spas in comparrison to the Hotspring's no bypass filtration.
The 880s have no socks on the suctions for the pumps as it is not needed. The socks were mostly for sand and once they went to bearingless jets, those socks were not needed anymore.
Then the pumps were bumped up to 56 frame and SEPARATED from the filtration portion of the spa. Those pumps can handle pine needles no problem. If you have a problem with a tub filtering 50,000 gallons of water a day and your pumps are getting clogged with pine needles, you should put your cover back on your spa when you are done using it :P
50,000 gallons of water is being filtered daily with no bypass of the actual filter. The outlets of that filtration pump are designed to kick stuff up off the bottom of the spa so that it can be filtered. The suctions were redesigned so that the pumps would not suck in dirt and other debris directly off the bottom of the spa.
Hotspring spas may be the only one that has no-bypass on their jetting system, but if you could show me where any of the 50,000 gallons being filtered on an 880 is being bypassed, I will owe you a coke.
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Why does Sundance recommend the socks on the other line of spas ??
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I haven't seen the plumbing on one of these new tubs yet, so help me be clear.
The jet pumps no longer pull water through a filter at all?
The new, larger circ pump runs 24/7 and pulls all of it's 30 gallons per minute through the filter?
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Let these HotSpring dealers crow.
If someone was new here, looking for a spa, I'm sure the cockiness of the HS dealers would only turn them to another spa.
So much more out there, and better values to boot, than an overpriced HS.
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Let these HotSpring dealers crow.
If someone was new here, looking for a spa, I'm sure the cockiness of the HS dealers would only turn them to another spa.
So much more out there, and better values to boot, than an overpriced HS.
Thank you for your insiteful advice Dick...I mean Rick. :P
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you're very welcome pud.
You also appear to have plenty of room to stick your circ pump where the sun don't shine either.
Sucks to own a HS and realize you paid top dollar for a run of the mill spa , eh?
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Now watch, I'll be banned here for dare saying anything negative about the sponsor of this website.
HOT SPRINGS!
Good riddance, this board has been nothing but a biased advertisement for Watkins INc.
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Now watch, I'll be banned here for dare saying anything negative about the sponsor of this website.
HOT SPRINGS!
Good riddance, this board has been nothing but a biased advertisement for Watkins INc.
Are you going to throw your stuffed animal against the wall and slam your bedroom door shut now too? :( :'(
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Now watch, I'll be banned here for dare saying anything negative about the sponsor of this website.
HOT SPRINGS!
Good riddance, this board has been nothing but a biased advertisement for Watkins INc.
Rick, I'd think you be banned for being a throbing prick, rather than bashing hotsprings. But that's just my guess.
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better to be a throbbing prick trying to give some balance to the tilt here, than to be a regular suck up butt kisser like you Drew.
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better to be a throbbing prick trying to give some balance to the tilt here, than to be a regular suck up butt kisser like you Drew.
I thought you were leaving?
nothing worse than someone who threatens to leave and then sticks around.
Drama queen.
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Never said I was leaving, or do you knot no howw to reed Drew?
How could I possibly leave now when you are just chock full of witticisms?
Please give me a stage so I can throw my stuffed animals around dressed as a throbbing prick.
If one dares to talk down a HS product, (which the HS dealers and others make a living of doing to other brands here), and face their wrath.
It's like somebody else said, these guys do have gallons of "koolaid" and they spend their live long day trying to get others to drink it here.
I do hope newbies read this thread to not only see what a drama queen I am but to also see the reality of this board infested with some of the typical slime that represents the spa industry.
I do not direct this at most of you here. There are some genuine good people , but the percentages are dwindling.
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I haven't seen the plumbing on one of these new tubs yet, so help me be clear.
The jet pumps no longer pull water through a filter at all?
The new, larger circ pump runs 24/7 and pulls all of it's 30 gallons per minute through the filter?
THat is correct. The jet pumps ONLY pull water through the bottom suctions.
Hopefully no one takes this as me bashing Hotspring spas as this is not the intention. It was just trying to show that there are other ways of donig things.
Like I pointed out before, there are advantages and disadvantages of how Hotsrping and Sundance do things.
1 filter vs. many filters
reusable filter vs. throw away filters
laing pump+main pumps for filtration vs. aquaflo circ pump
In the end, this shouldn't be what your buying decision is based on as there are people with 25sq. ft bypassed filtration that have no problems with water quality or pumps being ruined.
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"Hopefully no one takes this as me bashing Hotspring spas as this is not the intention. "
This is a typical statement on this board. It's ok to bash other brands, but don't dare speak unkindly to the King of HotTubs.
Sheesh! The koolaid has been delivered and consumed.
Can I just make a cash donation to Watkins? They're the best.
Do you HS owners have an alter or shrine built next to your spa to give it the proper reverence it deserves?
I'd rather drink Arujna's koolaid than this crap.
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...Good riddance, this board has been nothing but a biased advertisement for Watkins INc.
::)
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"Hopefully no one takes this as me bashing Hotspring spas as this is not the intention. "
This is a typical statement on this board. It's ok to bash other brands, but don't dare speak unkindly to the King of HotTubs.
Sheesh! The koolaid has been delivered and consumed.
Can I just make a cash donation to Watkins? They're the best.
Do you HS owners have an alter or shrine built next to your spa to give it the proper reverence it deserves?
I'd rather drink Arujna's koolaid than this crap.
1) I am not a Hotspring owner
2) Hotspring spas are our direct competition in our area
3) It is not my intention to bash any brands on this board. Unfortunately, you turned it into a flame post
4) We WERE having a pretty decent conversation until you chimed in
5) I have had conversations with good ol' Jimmy (ha ha --->Jim Arjuna) before and when you get past the whole "Hotspring spas are deathtraps" rap, he has a lot of good ideas.
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1) I am not a Hotspring owner
2) Hotspring spas are our direct competition in our area
3) It is not my intention to bash any brands on this board. Unfortunately, you turned it into a flame post
4) We WERE having a pretty decent conversation until you chimed in
The conversation was very civil until ricks posts hit the board...Info was being exchanged with no name calling or circ pump threats
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I think rick does a good enough job showing us what kind of person he is all by himself.
I would like to know what has happened to rick to make him so hateful of HS. Me thinks there is something underlying all this vitriol.
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He does seem to have a fixation with sticking things into other peoples rectums. I find it all very queer, if you ask me.
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Dang, I stopped looking at this thread and it turned into a good one. There's nothing like a good old fashioned crowd stoning an outcast. ;) ;D
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Like a $3 bill!
I imagine him sitting there in his showroom polishing his XYZ brand spas while watching the HS dealers delivery truck roll by 2-3 times a day. It would get to you after a while!
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Let these HotSpring dealers crow.
If someone was new here, looking for a spa, I'm sure the cockiness of the HS dealers would only turn them to another spa.
??? ??? ???
I'm not sure who you're referring to but I didn't detect any cockiness from anyone.
As far as personal attacks, there seems to be a completely different type of anti-HotSpring bias on here (from competing dealers and trolls) than the type that is directed towards CalSpa, Arctic, Thermo, Master, and Phoenix Premium.
The bias directed at HotSpring comes with the territory: They are #1 in the industry in units sold and have been for 20 years now. Nobody likes that, except the HotSpring dealers and the people who buy HotSpring Spas. HotSpring is the biggest kid on the block so the mob likes to gang up against them. That's fine. It's water off a duck's back when people make derogatory statements towards what I believe and what I sell. I AM very fortunate to be in the position I am.
But, for the love of the Almighty, don't try to get me to admit that your brand of spa is as good as what I sell. It'll never happen. Be proud of what you sell, sell it as best as you can, believe in your heart that you sell the greatest spa made, and don't worry about what I think or believe. You're wasting your breath begging me to acknowledge your product. I'm glad you think your spa is the best. If you don't, then why sell it?
The bias directed at the other brands I mentioned seem to be more quality, service, or marketing-oriented. Those are all legitimate reasons and I stay out of that fray and let the experts have their say.
I enjoy being on here with most of you. There's a few bitter folks on the forum, but that's their shortcoming and of no concern to me. I hope they start to like themselves better some day and maybe they won't feel the need to be such whiney little men.
Merry Christmas!
Terminator
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Dang, I stopped looking at this thread and it turned into a good one. There's nothing like a good old fashioned crowd stoning an outcast. ;) ;D
i was thinking the same thing.
could you be so kind as to pass me 1 of those stones please? ;D
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Okay.... you two guys behave or Brooke is going to send you to your rooms for a time out.
I am not a dealer and I own a Jacuzzi. At no time have I ever felt left out, discriminated against or slighted by anyone on this forum. After all, I have the same ability to brag about my spa as they do.
This forum is about helping each other, having a good time, and open discussion. So be nice; life is short.
I have, on occasion, taken exception to posts here, but that has only happened when people prove they are acting like the south end of a north bound horse.
So, rick & pkud, you might want to check your direction. ;D
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I would like to know what has happened to rick to make him so hateful of HS. Me thinks there is something underlying all this vitriol.
I wondered the same thing when he went off last week and searching back I think it started with the thread below, in particular it was a post within ithe thread made by Drifter (Apr 21st, 2005, 11:36pm) which set Rick off (I think it was the ford vs Mercedes comparison). Rick came unwound and apparently has been holding it inside until erupting again this past week.
http://www.whatsthebest-hottub.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=wtb-hottub;action=display;num=1114115060;start=0
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spatech
i just read that link.....sounds like an implosion to me..... didnt see wht/why made it happen though. guess nobody mentioned the fact that there are people out there that like fords and hate mercedes.......oh well, to each their own.
speaking of which...its almost time for some green beer ;D
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"I would like to know what has happened to rick to make him so hateful of HS. Me thinks there is something underlying all this vitriol. "
I don't hate Hot Springs. I just use them as an example of bias that runs rampant here.
When I shopped, I stopped at the local Energy House, (Hotsprings dealer), and after waiting 45 minutes to even be acknowledged by their dealer, I nearly fainted from price shock and their unwillingness to budge, as well as their cocky attitude that yes, even you Terminator, portrayed in this thread.
( I was a "ready to buy" shopper that day, and they knew it too).
I also shopped Jacuzzi, (talk about a dealer who's biggest selling point is to trash other spas), Marquis (whole selling point is that the company is owned by it's employees, so what?), D1, (another case of sticker shock), and of course everybody's favorite, Calspa, (talk about the stereotype of a used car dealer, had to buy right now or sales price goes away).
So I was a bit disenchanted after a couple of days of this. I had currently owned an old CalSpa (came with the house) that was falling apart at the seams, had a leak that I could get noone, and I mean noone, who wanted to come out and repair it. Some tech, over the phone, suggested poking sticks in the foam to find the leak. That was when I first opened the cabinetry of my spa and knew right then and there I would not succeed in finding this leak. This spa was chock full of foam. It wasn't uniform either, it was stuffed with chunks and pieces of foam "mishmash".
So eventually, the wood frame morphed into rotten wet wood and the leak was so bad, I was losing a foot of water a day.
Then I walked into a Coleman dealer and looked at his wares. I was immediately impressed with the TP design and galvalume frame, also the assurance that my energy bill would be affected negligibly. The price was also much more agreeably than a similarly sized HS, D1, Marquis or Jacuzzi. I probably could have haggled a better price, but the guy threw in all the extras and even offered to come take the CalSpa away to the trashheap. (they had to get a big circle saw and cut it into pieces as the frame had "glued" itself to the concrete. It took 2 guys a full day to get it out of there.
So you can see my trepidation for getting another spa whose inherent design makes it difficult to track a possible leak. Not the case with a Coleman, you can see and access everything easily. Sure, theres some foam sprayed on the shell and around pipe fittings, but if a leak ever sprouted, even I could identify it in a flash.
Then I come onto this website, to revel and share thoughts on spa ownership, only to have my spa dissed as an inferior spa compared to the biggies, (all FF).
My spa is not as energy efficient, my spa will actually leak before a FF spa, my frame is weak and not as good as pressure treated wood, my pumps are going to burn up in all that ambient heat, my brand is not even owned by Coleman anymore so their (MAXX)quality must obviously be worse. You name it , it's been preached here by numerous people as to actually make a reader believe it all to be true.
To be continued......
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So that's where my rebellion got its roots. To have to listen to this schpleil by others day in and day out has turned me into a bit of a crusader for TP spas.
I mean come on, assuming that a good TP spa does indeed NOT have all of these problems, and in fact is just as energy efficient as the best FF spas, why wouldn't everyone go to this type of design? I mean really, many FF'ers have made a big point of stating, "it's cheaper to make a TP spa than a FF spa".
If that is so, (and I haven't seen documented proof of that yet, just like all the other bad claims on TP), again, why not manufacture your spa in this fashion?
All I can speak for is my Coleman. 2 years old now and still no leaking, no frame bending, no pumps burned out from overheating, etc. I also don't have a circulation pump that appearantly is a must have to get clean water. Bullcrap! My water is clear and the filtration is excellent. Coleman was the only one at the time that had a skinny filter pad that sat on top of the skimmer to collect the first line of debris that usually gets to everybody else's main filters. I assume more companies have adopted this technique as to me, it only makes sense to trap the crap before it even gets to the filter.
Did I mention also that Coleman was by far the quietest spa of all the ones I shopped?
Over time, more thanks to people like Spahappy than me, Coleman has become a "more" accepted name here as the TP/FF war has become old.
But then you get a guy like hymbow, who has to stir the pot with his statement that prompted me to suggest placing circ pumps in dark places, and the whole shooting war got started again.
I'm sorry if I have offended alot of you, and sorry for trading insults with Hymbow, TUO, pkud and Drewstar. I apologize. I regret many of my posts made in haste. I just want to enjoy my spa like all of you, and hope that people would just come around about other design types and spas. I just picture new shoppers who come here for advice and when Coleman, Master, or other TP's get shot down in flames because it's a TP spa, it peeves me to no end.
So anyways, sorry for being an ass. I know what I like and you all know what you like. Peace.
(damm, that Prozac I just took really does work)
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(damm, that Prozac I just took really does work)
its a wonder drug aint it?? ;D ok, bad joke. good to hear your tub has lived up to your expectaions. i am not trying to slam or degrade it. i would say the same thing to ANY tub owner.
like others have said, the BEST tub is the 1 that fits you and your needs. you have that. from what little i know about coleman spas, they seem to make a good product. i have seen a few posts from people saying how much they enjoy their coleman.
the FF/PT thing......everything has its +/-'s.
i can understand getting heated when you feel you are being bashed. lets just chalk it up to a misunderstanding and call it done with.
cool???
socal
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as well as their cocky attitude that yes, even you Terminator, portrayed in this thread.
I'm sorry if I sounded cocky. Lord knows I can't stand to listen to some goober who's all hat and no cattle. I apologize for sounding cocky when I was simply confident, but I can understand why some folks would take it that way. :)
It's all fun and games and I appreciate you not wanting to get me with the circ pump! ;D
Terminator
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I have, on occasion, taken exception to posts here, but that has only happened when people prove they are acting like the south end of a north bound horse.
So, rick & pkud, you might want to check your direction. ;D
So your saying you can get a good look at a T-Bone steak by sticking your head up the butchers A$$...or no wait...it's your bull...Farley ;D
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Nice recovery Rick, now if you would kindly give everyone their stones back so they can be ready for the next outcast. ;D ;D ;D
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So your saying you can get a good look at a T-Bone steak by sticking your head up the butchers A$$...or no wait...it's your bull...Farley ;D
Now that's funny, I'd care who ya are. If ya don't think that's funny y'all better git outta here rat now. ;D
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Now that's funny, I'd care who ya are. If ya don't think that's funny y'all better git outta here rat now. ;D
that was a joke??? ;D just kidding
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Rick,
When you bash this forum, you insult every person who contributes and participates.
TP and FF are debated here. I find the debates, when folks can offer information and practical experince, to be very interesting. If you feel people are personaly attacking you for you tub, then you are mistaken. Take a step back. Relax.
If you want to argue, I am all for it. But fight fair, and inteligently, please. Start personal attacks and I'll toss em back. I appologize for my comments.
Another internet forum has a cliche; "Argueing on the internet is like wining the Special Olypics, You might win, but you're still retarded and no one really cares" ;)
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Another internet forum has a cliche; "Argueing on the internet is like wining the Special Olypics, You might win, but you're still retarded and no one really cares" ;)
Now that sounds like a statement that should DEFINITELY not be repeated......my apologies for reprinting the quote.
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Now that sounds like a statement that should DEFINITELY not be repeated......my apologies for reprinting the quote.
Are you arguing with me ? ;)
Yes, the quote is offensive, but not directed at anyone here. I will remove it if people are upset by it.
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Drewstar's comment was no more offensive than anything else threads like this dredge up, and as he said, was not directed at anyone in particular...unlike some of the more nasty comments here.
So this thread starts out as a nice debate- which HAPPENS to center around a technology that HS prides itself in. The thread was not even started by a HS dealer!!!!! Then the nice little debate turns into an ugly feud because a few people get sensitive.
Rick- let me get this straight- you say you had a CalSpa that fell part, and since it was FF, and then you didn't like the prices a HS dealer gave you, you now have a vendetta against the company? Your insults added nothing productive to this thread, and you just came across as a childish a$$.
HS is a big company. Who cares? As a big company, they ARE going to be more visible in the market, and they are likely to have a bigger following here than some other companies. Basic statistics. OF COURSE the HS dealers are going to speak positively about their product. How could they sell something that they did not believe in? East Tx Spa says bigger is better. Nobody has to agree with him, but he's right- HS is big. Who cares?
This says it all:
" I take nothing from HS, it is a great Hot Tub and so are 20 or 30 others that do the same thing, deliver fun and enjoyment to those that use them.
D-1, Artesian, Sundance, Coleman, Marquis, Master, Cal, Jacuzzi, LA, Caldera, Artic, and ALL others have one thing in common with Hot Springs, they all make Hot Water and the all have happy owners, and they all deliver happines, fun, enjoyment and they bring relationships closer together. "
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bigger is better.
Yea, but I dont like to brag. :P :P ;) ;D
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bigger is better.
Yea, but I dont like to brag. :P :P ;) ;D
Hmmm, do I say something here or do I keep quiet. ;D
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It's not like you to pass up a good one. ;)
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i said this before in another post..................
attractive lady: "a big head gets you no where"
my responce: "depends on what industry you are in!!"
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I don't care how you clean your filter, I care how I clean mine.
I don't care if you have 100% no by pass filtration, my water is clean.
I don't care if you are TP or FF, I pay my energy bills because they are mine, now you pay yours.
I don't care too much about any of you...
That's all well and good. But, if I may ask - if you truly don't care about any of this, why do you have full-page rant in the middle of a thread with the TOPIC - By-pass Filtration?
It would appear you care very much about all this.
And other than you, I truly don't see many folks knocking the various systems. As you say - they all work.
HS doesn't draw unfiltered water into the plumbing. Simple statement, and it contains no words such as "Better, Best, " or similar.
Sundance puts a larger circ pump on some of it's high-end models. They move a bunch of water, though nobody including SD claims it costs the same to do so. Their jet pumps have NO filtration on those models, but you don't really need it when the filter system is so powerful. The rest of their models use a bypass system where part of the water goes through the jet pumps unfiltered.
That's all we are saying! Two different ways (Actually three) to get to the same end.
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You're right Chas. I went back and re-read the entire thread and that rant was what started the downturn in the civil discussion we were having. Some folks seem to like to be instigators. :(
Terminator
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Are you arguing with me ? ;)
Yes, the quote is offensive, but not directed at anyone here. I will remove it if people are upset by it.
Nope....definitely not arguing with you.....this time. ;) I just felt like the quote is not worth repeating because of its reference to special olympics and the people who participate in them. No harm, no foul.....just my opinion.
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I JUST read all this......and.....YIKES.....can we get back to the cool diagramage that Term made, and discuss the pros and cons of filtering buggers, spermies and bottles out of the system? ;D
Here's one for ya....I've got a Hoover Wind Tunnel vacuum. It's the bagless variety with something like 3 different filters.....their sales pitch partly revolved around the dirt that gets sucked up into the vac NOT going thru the motor (or fan or some other important sucky part) but being bypassed, so all that crap doesn't damage the motor and fan components...so they're saying that keeping the junk away is a GOOD thing, and the vacuum still sucks... ::) And yes.....it's sucked up so much cat hair, dog hair, toenails, hair, etc, etc ICK...that I'd hate to think of clogging the system up prematurely by NOT having it bypassed......
So I think, that in MHO....I'd just as soon have the HS filtering to keep the "little extras" out of the plumbing, because of the "ounce of prevention" theory, if nothing else.
I don't have a groovy diagram to post......but I'll leave you with this:
(http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e106/TatooedLady/dragqueen.jpg)
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D**n, I haven't read this but noticed the number of pages. I think it's a record!!
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That's all well and good. But, if I may ask - if you truly don't care about any of this, why do you have full-page rant in the middle of a thread with the TOPIC - By-pass Filtration?
It would appear you care very much about all this.
And other than you, I truly don't see many folks knocking the various systems. As you say - they all work.
HS doesn't draw unfiltered water into the plumbing. Simple statement, and it contains no words such as "Better, Best, " or similar.
Sundance puts a larger circ pump on some of it's high-end models. They move a bunch of water, though nobody including SD claims it costs the same to do so. Their jet pumps have NO filtration on those models, but you don't really need it when the filter system is so powerful. The rest of their models use a bypass system where part of the water goes through the jet pumps unfiltered.
That's all we are saying! Two different ways (Actually three) to get to the same end.
VERY well said.
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That's all well and good. But, if I may ask - if you truly don't care about any of this, why do you have full-page rant in the middle of a thread with the TOPIC - By-pass Filtration?
It would appear you care very much about all this.
And other than you, I truly don't see many folks knocking the various systems. As you say - they all work.
HS doesn't draw unfiltered water into the plumbing. Simple statement, and it contains no words such as "Better, Best, " or similar.
Sundance puts a larger circ pump on some of it's high-end models. They move a bunch of water, though nobody including SD claims it costs the same to do so. Their jet pumps have NO filtration on those models, but you don't really need it when the filter system is so powerful. The rest of their models use a bypass system where part of the water goes through the jet pumps unfiltered.
That's all we are saying! Two different ways (Actually three) to get to the same end.
AGREED and well spoken
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I can't help but get a chuckle out of all of this...
Not in a funny HAHA sort of way either but by the fact there was 11+ pages on one feature that shouldn't be the basis of a buying decision. How does this differ from FF or TP? It doesn't...
The reality is that 90% of the prospects looking at spas buy off of less than 10% of the features. We bang our heads against the wall selling our features when in reality, people just want to know if it's as relaxing and soothing as we say it is. It's hot water, jets and a pump or 3.
It's time we stand back and look at this posturing and realize most are only trying to convince themselves of the benefits of any ONE feature.
That being said, the real reality is that 99% of us have limited in-depth knowledge of most of other manufacturers nor have taken the time to fully understand their concepts. Most here have been with one manufacturer for a very long time and it's not hard to become brainwashed into thinking it's the ONLY way to do things... Take it from me...It took me a long time to see that as I too was brainwashed into thinking the same thing. It's human nature so I don't fault anyone because of it.
If you're reading this behemoth thread trying to gain knowledge into spa shopping and what's really important, I feel very sorry for.
Nuff said...
Steve
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It is funny but you might be surprised. Had a fella come in yesterday that was set to buy a Brand X spa down the road.
When he asked the guy if this was the best spa made, the salesman replied, "Well, HotSpring's are the best, but we're the second best." The customer was shocked to hear this and came down to see "the best".
After I explained the benefits of our spas (yes, including the 100% No-bypass filtration), he asked me "What do you think about Brand X Spas?"
I answered, "They're fine spas and you'd probably be very happy if you owned one."
He replied, "I'm glad to hear you say that. I really like that you guys filter 100% of the water and that is something I'd like my spa to do."
I replied "Well, sir, it looks like you'll be buying a HotSpring because we're the only ones that do."
So, he bought a 2006 Sovereign with Sterling Marble shell and Coastal Gray cabinet.
Point #1: Never say your competition is better than you.
Point #2: Exclusive features really do make a difference, sometimes. Not always, but sometimes.
Merry Christmas!
Terminator
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It is funny but you might be surprised. Had a fella come in yesterday that was set to buy a Brand X spa down the road.
When he asked the guy if this was the best spa made, the salesman replied, "Well, HotSpring's are the best, but we're the second best." The customer was shocked to hear this and came down to see "the best".
I hope you're going to give the "brand x" salesman a referrel bonus or at least send him a fruit basket for his help.
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I hope you're going to give the "brand x" salesman a referrel bonus or at least send him a fruit basket for his help.
Anyone that would tell a prospective customer that their competition is better than them is already a fruit basket. :)
Terminator
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Anyone that would tell a prospective customer that their competition is better than them is already a fruit basket. :)
Terminator
cant argue with that ;)
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Anyone that would tell a prospective customer that their competition is better than them is already a fruit basket. :) Terminator
Are you suggesting that he lie? :-X
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Are you suggesting that he lie? :-X
No sir, but I'm saying that if he doesn't believe in his heart he is selling the best product, how can he be successful? Maybe it's me but I cannot fathom trying to talk someone into spending their hard earned money on something I think is less than the best. People that make their living doing that are, in my opinion, con artists.
Terminator