Hot Tub Forum
Original => Hot Tub Forum => Topic started by: donnaduck on November 22, 2014, 03:15:26 pm
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Trying to do as much research as I can ... I have looked at tons, talked to others, wettested/dry-tested.... Narrowed down my spa choice to models from Hot Spring and Sundance. My main desire is therapeutic benefit - outside of the usual quality manufacturer/reputable dealer. I think with HS and SD I have both. Models from each - vary some in cost.
Any thoughts from any one on them would be appreciated. I like the motojet (sp?) on HS but wonder about trouble with it within a few years? I love the "grab bars" on the SD 880 series - which I can't understand why more don't have them. I may not be old, but my joints are and its just a safety feature I appreciate - along with a "cool seat" or flat area to more safely enter the tub.
Here are my models on my list after weeding out tons... HS - Aria and their next level down, Flair. (I do like the feel of the Aria's lounger more than the Flair as it is not as deep, but in the grand scheme its fine) $2500 difference.
Sundance - Cameo, Marin or Altamar.
Both dealers have excellent reputations in my area and have been wonderful to work with thus far. We are in NC, will mostly be just my husband and myself - college age/adult kids may come home more often with a hot tub - but mostly just us - stress relief and joint comfort.
Thank you for any comments!!
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This probably isn't much help simply because you've done most of the "work" already in that you found 2 of the top companies in the industry along with what sounds like 2 reputable dealers and to top it off you've already wet tested, so....which did you like better? All sales pitch aside the Aria is truly one of my most favorite spas to sit in because I sit in every seat like a rock and I love the good hard pressure of the Jets. I assume you meant there is a $2,500 difference between the Aria and Flair, I guess my next question would be which model was your absolute favorite Sundance? and how does it stack up price wise vs. the Hot Spring models?
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TwinCitiesHotSpring - yes, the difference between Aria and Flair. :-)
The Sundance - probably the Altamar.
Its just a big chunk of change and I want to make sure I make the wisest decision. Luckily both dealers seem to be very good. There are other dealers, well, lets just say I am not sure if I would take a hot tub from them for $1000.
Sundance the 3 I like range from $9300-$11300.
Flair definitely cheaper, but spending $8,000 or $11k - would rather have the best regardless of where it is in that range.
While the Hot Springs doesn't really have those "grab bars" - the step into a raised flat area is absolutely key. I liked the Envoy, but not that you really can't enter on a flat surface - if that makes sense. I hope they last and when I am a few years older, just want to be able to be safe. (Sort of like my engineer husband who built his house at the age of 40 with all doors wheelchair accessible, his version of thinking ahead... ;)
Any worries about the Moto-massage with Hot Springs? Dealer did say that in their first years they did have problems, but felt in the past few years not any problems unless using wrong chemicals, like pool chemicals, that created problems with plastic hose....
And, I really enjoy working with both dealers, neither have been pushy or arrogant, but helpful and patient!
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Trying to do as much research as I can ... I have looked at tons, talked to others, wettested/dry-tested.... Narrowed down my spa choice to models from Hot Spring and Sundance. My main desire is therapeutic benefit - outside of the usual quality manufacturer/reputable dealer. I think with HS and SD I have both. Models from each - vary some in cost.
Any thoughts from any one on them would be appreciated. I like the motojet (sp?) on HS but wonder about trouble with it within a few years? I love the "grab bars" on the SD 880 series - which I can't understand why more don't have them. I may not be old, but my joints are and its just a safety feature I appreciate - along with a "cool seat" or flat area to more safely enter the tub.
Here are my models on my list after weeding out tons... HS - Aria and their next level down, Flair. (I do like the feel of the Aria's lounger more than the Flair as it is not as deep, but in the grand scheme its fine) $2500 difference.
Sundance - Cameo, Marin or Altamar.
Both dealers have excellent reputations in my area and have been wonderful to work with thus far. We are in NC, will mostly be just my husband and myself - college age/adult kids may come home more often with a hot tub - but mostly just us - stress relief and joint comfort.
Thank you for any comments!!
All good options so the wet test will be key for you. The moto jet has been around for years/decades and the dual version is great and holds up very well but if you have any fear just realize its extremely easy to replace (by owner or dealer) if the need ever arises.
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I agree with Hot Spring Ace - the wet test is now the key for you. You are choosing between two very good manufactures and you are comfortable with both dealers. You've done everything right in your search. Now just choose the spa you feel the best in.
Good luck, and please let us know which spa you end up with, and why you chose it.
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Welcome to the forum! You came down to the same two brands I did and personally you can't make a wrong decision. Dealer support goes a long way to making you feel comfortable. Any difference there?
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I hope to make a decision this week.... then choosing location/land prep, etc.! Very exciting. I appreciate all the feedback. I am almost leaning more towards the HS dealer, just not sure why, just a gut feeling.
If HS - leaning toward Aria. I did also like some of their Caldera spas as well.
I will keep forum posted on my decision!
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I have had the Cameo and I currently have the Hot Springs sovereign, which I absolutely love. Both brands are great tubs, the cameo had better therapeutic jets, but my wife did not like them, she is 5'2 and light, so she would constantly be rising out of tub. The motojet is fine, what ever mechanical issues you might experience are very easy to fix. I have had none, but its a simple design, the sovereign has a cool down seat in front and allows easy access, very easy to clean tub too, without getting in it. The cameo was more roomy and like i said the jets, air feature were killer, but the tub cost more to run. You can't go wrong with either brand… Good luck..
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You have a very tough decision! My husband wants me to give Hot Springs another try...I liked the Sundance dover better...smaller tub for us as it is just us 2...
A small tub offers an easier in and out, My husband is 6'2 and he did fit into a Sundance dover and we we're able to sit side by side in it and with a pillow under me I had less float...
Have your wife try using a pillow under her in the spa...
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You have a very tough decision! My husband wants me to give Hot Springs another try...I liked the Sundance dover better...smaller tub for us as it is just us 2...
A small tub offers an easier in and out, My husband is 6'2 and he did fit into a Sundance dover and we we're able to sit side by side in it and with a pillow under me I had less float...
Have your wife try using a pillow under her in the spa...
The Dover is basically the same size as the Hot Spring Jetsetter (Highlife version) but this year Hot Spring unveiled the NXT series and the Jetsetter is available that way. The Jetsetter NXT is 33" deep for those who need more legroom whereas the Highlife version is 29" deep. With your husband being tall you should consider the NXT version if you look at the Hot Spring Jetsetter.
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We found the plus factors for Sundance were---higher seating for the ladies----larger pumps---titanium heater
The negative factors were ---salt water worried us about corrosion----seats lower in HS---moto massage had a lot of moving parts that could malfunction
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We found the plus factors for Sundance were---higher seating for the ladies----larger pumps---titanium heater
The negative factors were ---salt water worried us about corrosion----seats lower in HS---moto massage had a lot of moving parts that could malfunction
just so you and anyone else reading this post is fully informed...
1. Hot Spring's uses a titanium heater as well
2. pump size means nothing, how it personally feels on your skin means everything.
3. moto-massage is essentially 1 moving part not "a lot" as described above
4. salt levels in a salt water spa are approx. 1800-2000 ppm....as reference your own human tear drops are approx. 9,000 ppm and actual sea water is approx. 36,000 ppm....its kind of funny actually I keep seeing all these posts that mention "corrosion" and and I've been personally selling the saltwater system now since mid 2009 and I've yet to see 1 single instance/photo/in real life or otherwise of any type of corrosion at all...if someone has a photo or some type of proof that this has actually happened one single time I'd sure love to see it.
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We found the plus factors for Sundance were---higher seating for the ladies----larger pumps---titanium heater
The negative factors were ---salt water worried us about corrosion----seats lower in HS---moto massage had a lot of moving parts that could malfunction
just so you and anyone else reading this post is fully informed...
1. Hot Spring's uses a titanium heater as well
2. pump size means nothing, how it personally feels on your skin means everything.
3. moto-massage is essentially 1 moving part not "a lot" as described above
4. salt levels in a salt water spa are approx. 1800-2000 ppm....as reference your own human tear drops are approx. 9,000 ppm and actual sea water is approx. 36,000 ppm....its kind of funny actually I keep seeing all these posts that mention "corrosion" and and I've been personally selling the saltwater system now since mid 2009 and I've yet to see 1 single instance/photo/in real life or otherwise of any type of corrosion at all...if someone has a photo or some type of proof that this has actually happened one single time I'd sure love to see it.
I've seen a similar post saying Hot Spring didn't have a titanium heater, etc., etc. (may have even been from the same poster???). Glad to see you set the record straight. I also have to say that while I don't have a Hot Spring, I know they make a great spa - and although I take you at your word that ACE doesn't cause corrosion, for all kinds of other reasons I would not get the ACE system.
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Almost every saltwater spa we ever sold had premature failures due to corrosion. You could see it on the heater element, the heater tube, the jets, etc..... Saltwater is corrosive. I don't have much experience with the ACE system that supposedly uses lower salt levels, but in general, most salt systems absolutely do tend to corrode components. We quit offering them due to the astronomical instances of component failure with them.
To be clear, I am not speaking with direct experience with the Hot Spring salt system, though it has had it's own issues from everything I read.
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Almost every saltwater spa we ever sold had premature failures due to corrosion. You could see it on the heater element, the heater tube, the jets, etc..... Saltwater is corrosive. I don't have much experience with the ACE system that supposedly uses lower salt levels, but in general, most salt systems absolutely do tend to corrode components. We quit offering them due to the astronomical instances of component failure with them.
To be clear, I am not speaking with direct experience with the Hot Spring salt system, though it has had it's own issues from everything I read.
In all seriousness, you don't have much experience with Ace or you don't have any? It would be interesting to see how much higher those other salt levels are because with Ace its very low and while the cell had issues early on as has been noted by users on this website and others you don't see complaints of corrosion on line as far as I've seen.
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1. In my searching I cannot find a Hot Springs spec that says that the Vanguard--equivalent +/- to the Optima---has a titanium heater---we were told by Hot Springs that the Vanguard had a SS heater----I grant you that HS most likely has a titanium heater available in some spas--but not the Vanguard --so your defense on that issue is flawed---don't you think?--Or Can you point me to some back up?
2. Pump size means something---
3. We were told by HS that their were 14 parts to a moto massage
4 The ppm's I am sure have a lot to do with mal functions and I am sure they are very low in the HS system but--it is salt water and when you add the Human Error Variable---lack of perfect water balance ---it is very concerning---and sometimes--perception is is more of a cause than reality---we didn't want to have to maintain perfect balance 100% of the time.
PS--I can find a ton of Titanium replacement heaters for Vanguard HS but I cannot find a spec by HS that says the "No Fault" heater is SS or Titanium---if they do provide one when did they introduce it in the Vanguard???????
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1. In my searching I cannot find a Hot Springs spec that says that the Vanguard--equivalent +/- to the Optima---has a titanium heater---we were told by Hot Springs that the Vanguard had a SS heater----I grant you that HS most likely has a titanium heater available in some spas--but not the Vanguard --so your defense on that issue is flawed---don't you think?--Or Can you point me to some back up?
2. Pump size means something---
3. We were told by HS that their were 14 parts to a moto massage
4 The ppm's I am sure have a lot to do with mal functions and I am sure they are very low in the HS system but--it is salt water and when you add the Human Error Variable---lack of perfect water balance ---it is very concerning---and sometimes--perception is is more of a cause than reality---we didn't want to have to maintain perfect balance 100% of the time.
PS--I can find a ton of Titanium replacement heaters for Vanguard HS but I cannot find a spec by HS that says the "No Fault" heater is SS or Titanium---if they do provide one when did they introduce it in the Vanguard???????
Is someone telling you stainless steal heaters are an issue?
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2. Pump size means something---
This is correct. A larger pump, will use more electricity, costing more to operate.
A larger pump in a different spa, in no way says anything about the power, or comfortability of the jets. There any numerous ways to rate the horsepower of a pump, and one 2hp pump, may in fact be more powerful that another 3hp pump.
There's also the aspect of volume vs. pressure. The same pump can be designed up to move a great amount of water at a low pressure, or a lower amount of water at a higher pressure. his is itself, is a clear indicating that even comparing two spa with the same hp, can be like comparing apples to oranges.
Additionally, many aspects of the jets and plumbing will also effect.
But yes, pump size does mean something....frequently though, it just means marketing hype.
We were told by HS that their were 14 parts to a moto massage
nuts, bolts, screws....and one part that moves.
it is salt water and when you add the Human Error Variable
You add a very specific amount of salt to a specific spa...but then, there's nothing in the world that's totally idiot proof
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2. Pump size means something---
This is correct. A larger pump, will use more electricity, costing more to operate.
A larger pump in a different spa, in no way says anything about the power, or comfortability of the jets. There any numerous ways to rate the horsepower of a pump, and one 2hp pump, may in fact be more powerful that another 3hp pump.
There's also the aspect of volume vs. pressure. The same pump can be designed up to move a great amount of water at a low pressure, or a lower amount of water at a higher pressure. This is itself, is a clear indicating that even comparing two spa with the same hp, can be like comparing apples to oranges.
Additionally, many aspects of the jets and plumbing will also effect the flow rate and pressure of the water exiting the jets.
But yes, pump size does mean something....frequently though, it just means marketing hype.
We were told by HS that their were 14 parts to a moto massage
nuts, bolts, screws....and one part that moves.
it is salt water and when you add the Human Error Variable
You add a very specific amount of salt to a specific spa...but then, there's nothing in the world that's totally idiot proof
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1. In my searching I cannot find a Hot Springs spec that says that the Vanguard--equivalent +/- to the Optima---has a titanium heater---we were told by Hot Springs that the Vanguard had a SS heater----I grant you that HS most likely has a titanium heater available in some spas--but not the Vanguard --so your defense on that issue is flawed---don't you think?--Or Can you point me to some back up?
2. Pump size means something---
3. We were told by HS that their were 14 parts to a moto massage
4 The ppm's I am sure have a lot to do with mal functions and I am sure they are very low in the HS system but--it is salt water and when you add the Human Error Variable---lack of perfect water balance ---it is very concerning---and sometimes--perception is is more of a cause than reality---we didn't want to have to maintain perfect balance 100% of the time.
PS--I can find a ton of Titanium replacement heaters for Vanguard HS but I cannot find a spec by HS that says the "No Fault" heater is SS or Titanium---if they do provide one when did they introduce it in the Vanguard???????
This is a description of the OEM Factory heater: This 2014 No-Fault PDR Titanium Heater is the newest factory upgrade replacement heater from the makers of Hot Springs spas.
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1. In my searching I cannot find a Hot Springs spec that says that the Vanguard--equivalent +/- to the Optima---has a titanium heater---we were told by Hot Springs that the Vanguard had a SS heater----I grant you that HS most likely has a titanium heater available in some spas--but not the Vanguard --so your defense on that issue is flawed---don't you think?--Or Can you point me to some back up? The MANUFACTURER brochure for the 2014 Highlife collection including the Vanguard exactly states: "No-Fault Heater..A unique titanium housing and heater element maximize heat transfer to the water and deliver unmatched corrosion resistance. In Fact, our patentented No-Fault heater is warranted for five years regardless of water chemistry"
2. Pump size means something---most consumers think it does, but it doesn't mean a whole lot because there is so many variables in play that its hard to form a realistic opinion on the hot tub based on simply a horsepower #: motor size, inlet/outlet size, # of jets, types of jets, volume each jet pushes, how the spa was plumbed? direct plumbed or many multiple "hub" fittings, etc. etc. so yes at the end of the day unless your trying to reverse engineer a hot tub the only thing that REALLY matters is how the jets feel on your own body
3. We were told by HS that their were 14 parts to a moto massage...like stated above unless your counting every part that goes into making a moto-massage then it is simply 1 assembly that moves...to me when there is only 1 moving part there is only 1 moving part..not 10, not 14, not 60....just 1, and that is what the moto-massage is
4 The ppm's I am sure have a lot to do with mal functions and I am sure they are very low in the HS system but--it is salt water and when you add the Human Error Variable---lack of perfect water balance ---it is very concerning---and sometimes--perception is is more of a cause than reality---we didn't want to have to maintain perfect balance 100% of the time. I'm not sure what this means? why would you not want to maintain perfect balance in your 10k+ hot tub? quickest way to soaking in "uncomfortable" feeling water, and also the quickest way to have things break down quickly is to NOT have good water balance...so again I'm confused
PS--I can find a ton of Titanium replacement heaters for Vanguard HS but I cannot find a spec by HS that says the "No Fault" heater is SS or Titanium---if they do provide one when did they introduce it in the Vanguard???????
I hope that can clear things up, anything else just ask
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Thank you all - I have enjoyed reading your posts, even the back and forth about some issues - which actually I find interesting. We did wet test the Sundance models - but I felt like I floated to much in both the Altamar (sp?) and Optima. Now back to HS Aria and possibly the Caldera Tahitian. I suppose before making my final decision I truly need to go back and wet test those again.
I don't think we could go wrong with any of them. I just can't wait to get it here and set up (probably January at the earliest). I am lucky that there are both the Sundance and HS dealerships are really good people with great reputations. And, lordy they have been so patient and informative to me.
I hope everyone has had a great Thanksgiving!