Hot Tub Forum
Original => Hot Tub Forum => Topic started by: riot138 on July 20, 2015, 09:15:33 pm
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Thanks for taking the time and reading my post. I am hoping some people who actually own hot tubs can help me out as opposed to the store sales reps :D.
I have narrowed it down to the below list. I originally had a budget of 8K but I soon realized that isn't going to get me what I want so it's now 11K. I would really like to have a water feature and led lighting, a stereo would be a bonus. See the list below (all lists below include delivery, startup chemicals and cover lifter):
-Bullfrog R7 (stock does not have LED lighting) has standard water feature - $10700w/tax
-Marquis 660 c/w stereo, led lights and full foam$9700 w/tax
-Beachcomber Hybrid 380, complete stock but w/ extended warranty, gfci and their $500 personal setup - $11000 w/tax
-Jacuzzi 345, complete stock (but stock has waterfalls and led lights)- $11000 w/tax
I would love to hear some opinions. The marquis has all my wants (stereo, upgraded led and water features) and is within my price range but the girl at beachcomber said I may be saving initially but the daily cost to operate will cost more in the long run due to the beachcomber being more energy efficient. Not sure how true this is.
I also checked out arctic and Sundance but they were both out of my price range for the models I was looking at.
Thanks for the help!
***Forgot to mention I am in Canada so prices will obviously be a little higher***
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You live on the moon? :o Those prices are crazy, and probably MSRP..
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Thanks for the replies. The prices above are without negotiating and are in CDN funds (weakest it's been in 6 years). I really did think they were high but I am a first time buyer so I am not too sure what is fair.
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Thanks for taking the time and reading my post. I am hoping some people who actually own hot tubs can help me out as opposed to the store sales reps :D.
I have narrowed it down to the below list. I originally had a budget of 8K but I soon realized that isn't going to get me what I want so it's now 11K. I would really like to have a water feature and led lighting, a stereo would be a bonus. See the list below (all lists below include delivery, startup chemicals and cover lifter
-Bullfrog R7 (stock does not have LED lighting) has standard water feature - $10700w/tax
-Marquis 660 c/w stereo, led lights and full foam$9700 w/tax
-Beachcomber Hybrid 380, complete stock but w/ extended warranty, gfci and their $500 personal setup - $11000 w/tax
-Jacuzzi 345, complete stock (but stock has waterfalls and led lights)- $11000 w/tax
I would love to hear some opinions. The marquis has all my wants (stereo, upgraded led and water features) and is within my price range but the girl at beachcomber said I may be saving initially but the daily cost to operate will cost more in the long run due to the beachcomber being more energy efficient. Not sure how true this is.
I also checked out arctic and Sundance but they were both out of my price range for the models I was looking at.
Thanks for the help!
Where do you live? The price on the marquis isn't bad but the others are real high. I think you should be able to negotiate the prices on all of these tubs down a bit. The beachcomber is especially high for that tub
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That's way too much for an R7; I paid less than that for my A7.
We've really enjoyed our Bullfrog. It had all the features I was looking for as far as build quality, full power at all the jets without diverters, made in the USA, etc., but everyone has to decide for themselves what's important.
Let me know if you have any specific Bullfrog questions I can help you with.
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Welcome to the forum. For what I know, you won't lose, you have picked 3 good choices. (My experience with Bullfrog is less than the others, but I don't have anything negative to say. I haven't price shopped in 3 years so I'll stay out of that part.
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Your list says the Bullfrog does not have LED lights. Maybe they do it different in Canada, but it should come standard with LED lights.
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full power at all the jets without diverters,
So your stuck with either high or low and no adjustments in between? I would opt for a diverter so you get infinite adjustment from full power to nothing.
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Hi Sam, The bullfrog R7 does have 1 led light in the tub and I believe the water feature is illuminated but it does not have their upgraded led lights that are throughout the tub and below the cup holders.
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With the Canadian dollar being 75 to 80 cents on a given day, the prices make sense.
I bought a Bullfrog R6. My wife and I are very happy with it so far at LED lights came standard. I would not have paid extra for them but the wife likes them which is good. We went with Bullfrog because of the options and versatility of the jetpack system. It is a full-foam tub and so far it seems to be fairly energy efficient. We run it at 102 degrees with two hour filter cycles, twice a day and it has hardly made a dent on our energy bill. That said, we have not been through a winter with it yet.
As far as the diverters go: The pump itself has a high and low mode. Each jetpack has a valve on it that allows the user to either to choose anywhere between no and full power for the jets of that jetpack. Each jet that is not part of a jetpack can also be manually adjusted between no and full flow. So there is a full range of adjustment between nothing and full power.
I am sure all of the other brands are excellent choices. I can only speak from my experience with Bullfrog and my wife and I are happy so far.
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Each jetpack has a valve on it that allows the user to either to choose anywhere between no and full power for the jets of that jetpack. Each jet that is not part of a jetpack can also be manually adjusted between no and full flow. So there is a full range of adjustment between nothing and full power.
So there is diverters?
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It works like a gate valve, with a screw. You can twist it closed which increases power to other seats or open it all the way.
They are not a flashy spa with 40+ light holes drilled through a shell. One main light with a couple small ones in the filter area, then one in the water feature.
I actually like the not lit up like a Christmas tree effect. Even the A series is pretty subdued lighting wise.
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I'm sorry I'm just confused. One post said there wasn't any diverter "valves" that allowed full power at the jets all the time. Which doesn't allow you to adjust the jets/jet packs. And another post said there was diverters.
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Each jet pack has it's own divertor. Packs with neck jets have 2 so you can also adjust the neck jet pressure as well.
http://www.bullfrogspas.com/jetpak-therapy-system/
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I think I have it narrowed down to the Marquis or the Bullfrog. The Jacuzzi dealer is 2hrs away which is kind of a big negative for me and the Beachcomber at 11K for their bottom tier tub is too pricey. Thanks again for all the help!
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full power at all the jets without diverters,
But I am still confused by this post from a BF owner.
Or is this part of their sales pitch?
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You should actually look at their website or maybe a YouTube video of how it works. Each pack has it's own "pressure adjustment" If you close one pack you get less at that seat, and more goes to another seat or two, if you open it you get more and it evens out between the seats.
The statement full power at all the jets with out divertors is not correct, or better yet misspoken.
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The Marquis 660 is one of my favorite spas, it has a really unique layout. Let us know what you decide.
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The statement "full power at all the jets without diverters" is correct. Every jet in a Bullfrog has full power without diverting power from one seat to get power at another, or you can adjust the power at each individual seat to your liking. Every seat can be set to full power and it doesn't noticeably decrease the power at any other seat.
Most other designs force you to choose who gets full power at the expense of someone else. If you usually only have one or two people soaking that's not such a big deal, but any time you have more than that you have to compromise.
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So if you open up all the diverters full the tub has the same power at all the seats. And if you close one or two of them the power at the seats still open stays the same? How does the pump do that?
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I give up..
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As explained before, there are no diverters like on other tubs. Each seat has an individual power adjustment and even when every seat is fully open it doesn't decrease power at the other seats. In fact there is almost too much power, even with every seat set to full, and we often turn down the power in whichever seat we're using for comfort. Doing so does not noticeably increase power at the other seats, but even if it did you could simply turn down those seats if you wanted. That's the advantage of the Bullfrog design, every person at every seat can choose their own power level without affecting anyone else.
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What happens when you close them all when the pump is running?
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Interesting question. I haven't tried completely closing every single jet pack since that would defeat the purpose of having a spa, but on the A7 the flow would go through the 12 foot/wrist/hip jets, the waterfall, and the non-jet pack seat.
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Ok. So I have a bullfrog tub. It works like this: With the valves fully open on every jetpack and the pump on high, there is a lot of pressure out of the jets. The valve on each jetpack can then be adjusted anywhere from fully open (full power) to fully closed (nothing coming out of the jets). If you completely close the valve on a jetpack, then the pressure DOES increase coming out of the jets whose valves remain open. If you closed every jetpack off except one for example and left that last one fully open, the pressure coming out of it would be way too high. The air still has to go somewhere after all.
So to answer some of these questions: With all the jetpacks valves fully open, there is plenty of pressure for a strong, therapeutic massage at each seat. If you close one of the jetpack valves completely, the pressure coming out of the ones remaining open increases.
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Sounds like it is diverted to me.
That's what I was trying to get to. I have seen it in person and it IS a diverter and a sales pitch.
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We just bought a bullfrog A7SS & love it. The jet packs work great & let us custom the spa for our needs. It is HIGH but we got what we needed.
You can buy different spas & should do a test soak before you buy any spa.
Just my 2 cents worth.
Louis
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Sounds like it is diverted to me.
That's what I was trying to get to. I have seen it in person and it IS a diverter and a sales pitch.
What isn't a sales pitch with a hot tub? Specially when you (well not you) but a sales person is trying to sell one.
I think the system works quite well.
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The one thing I like about the Bullfrog is that my wife who will probably only fit it 1 or 2 of the seats properly will be able to utilize almost every type of jet the bullfrog has to offer by switching the pack over to her seat. The Marquis 660 on the other hand has everything we want e.g. radio, upgraded led lights for about 1.5K to 2K less. (bullfrog is 9500+13%tax and it's a floor model so we are stuck with the brown on brown) where the Marquis is $9700 w/ tax but they hinted they are flexible on the price and we choose the colours we like.
I think I am going to go this weekend after the pay cheque comes in make my decision based on the best deal I am offered.
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13% tax!?!?!?! That's ridiculous.
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13% tax!?!?!?! That's ridiculous.
Not sure where "Riot" is from, but his tax rate is only 1% higher than ours - we pay 12%.
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I would at least dry test the tubs if you're not going to wet test. The Marquis 660 has 3-4 seats that will fit shorter people really well, and at least 2 of them have some really good jets.
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HK jets in the Marquis are awesome. And you don't have to move jet packs, you can simply move to a different seat. I'm not saying the movable jet packs don't give you another option but I still think it's gimmicky.
Does anyone have jet packs sitting in their garage waiting to be used. Or do you just switch around the ones in the tub? How often do you switch them around?
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I didn't think it was so much a gimmick as a better mouse trap to be honest. YMMV. In about one minute I could play musical chairs with all the jetpacks in the seats of my tub. I think this is better because it allows me to but the jets that would be most therapeutic to me at a given time in the seat that I most prefer (ie seats have different heights/loungers/etc). If you are happy with the seats the jetpacks are in you can leave them there but it is by no means a chore to switch them from seat to seat.
I personally don't have any sitting in the garage as I didn't see a need to buy extras that would not be used. All of mine are in use in the tub. As for how often I switch them around? I have maybe moved them from one seat to the next three or four times. Takes less than a minute to do. No tools, almost no effort.
HK jets in the Marquis are awesome. And you don't have to move jet packs, you can simply move to a different seat. I'm not saying the movable jet packs don't give you another option but I still think it's gimmicky.
Does anyone have jet packs sitting in their garage waiting to be used. Or do you just switch around the ones in the tub? How often do you switch them around?
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13% tax!?!?!?! That's ridiculous.
Not sure where "Riot" is from, but his tax rate is only 1% higher than ours - we pay 12%.
I'm from Ontario Canada. We aren't even the highest tax rate in Canada, it's 15% in Nova Scotia.
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13% tax!?!?!?! That's ridiculous.
Not sure where "Riot" is from, but his tax rate is only 1% higher than ours - we pay 12%.
I'm from Ontario Canada. We aren't even the highest tax rate in Canada, it's 15% in Nova Scotia.
I'm from B.C., Canada, and as I said ,ours is 12%.
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Sounds like it is diverted to me.
That's what I was trying to get to. I have seen it in person and it IS a diverter and a sales pitch.
As I explained, it is not a diverter like on other tubs since increasing the individual power adjustment on a seat does not reduce the power at any other seat. With the Bullfrog design you get full power at every seat without any noticeable decrease at another, which is much different than other tub brands whose diverters actually divert power from some seats to get full power at others. Every seat in a Bullfrog gets full power if you want it.
Not sure why this is so hard to understand, or why you think it's not true or a sales gimmick.
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PHYSICS
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Sounds like it is diverted to me.
That's what I was trying to get to. I have seen it in person and it IS a diverter and a sales pitch.
As I explained, it is not a diverter like on other tubs since increasing the individual power adjustment on a seat does not reduce the power at any other seat. With the Bullfrog design you get full power at every seat without any noticeable decrease at another, which is much different than other tub brands whose diverters actually divert power from some seats to get full power at others. Every seat in a Bullfrog gets full power if you want it.
Not sure why this is so hard to understand, or why you think it's not true or a sales gimmick.
It's not hard to understand it's impossible
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If the power is the same when running 6 JetPaks vs. 1 JetPak, they are restricting the flow. It is physics. The purpose of a diverter valve is to take the maximum amount of power from a pump and focus it in to 1 seat or a certain group of jets.
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Please explain exactly what it is in my explanations that is impossible or defies the laws of physics.
I said that every seat can have full power, that you can turn down the power if you like, and that you don't have to divert power from one seat if you want full power at another like other brands. Bullfrog tubs do not have the typical diverters that channel flow to some seats at the expense of others. These are all true statements, are not impossible, and don't defy the laws of physics.
If you're simply talking about what happens when you turn down one of the seats, then as I explained previously the flow is distributed to other jets.
What specifically is incorrect about any of the above?
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Why argue about this at all? If you are interested in a Bullfrog tub, go wet test it and check out how all the valves affect the jets and see if you dig it. If so, consider buying it; if not then look at another brand.
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Take a normal spa like a Jacuzzi. 2 pumps, 1 pump runs one side, one runs the other side. Bullfrog is primarily the same.
If I hit pump one with the divertor pointed to the middle both seats get equal pressure. If I turn it to the right one seat gets less the other more, turn it all the way to the right and one seat gets none. When the diverter is in the middle you are dividing the pressure between two seats. Technically not full power, right? At least getting as much power as both seats can.
On either spa I am not including other jets or foot jets that take flow as well.
So take a Bullfrog with 2 pumps, same as the Jacuzzi one pump runs one side the other pump runs the other side. If I close one BF divertor down at the btm, it will send full power to the other seat, so one seat get less. If I open them both up you again divide that pressure between 2 seats. So really both seats are getting as much as the can, but not really full power just as much as that pump can deliver GPM divided by 2. And again not including foot jets or some of the other jets taking flow.
I will say with Bullfrog you do not have all the hoses, manifolds 3/4" lines running to 30 jests or 90* elbows a normal spa would have, so I believe you are getting more pressure from the pump without restriction from all the plumbing in a normal spa. When you say each seat gets full power in a way it's right, but its really not.
Now when you look at a Artesian platinum class with it's direct flow system and one pump per seat if they still have it, then yes each seat is getting full power or at least as much as it can with plumbing restrictions and what not. In other terms one pump per seat. It actually was/is a really cool system, but I didn't really find in any more powerful than anybody else's system. But it was a great sales pitch like any other spa has.
Make any sense?
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Why argue about this at all? If you are interested in a Bullfrog tub, go wet test it and check out how all the valves affect the jets and see if you dig it. If so, consider buying it; if not then look at another brand.
Because he already has a B,frog.. ;)
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Take a normal spa like a Jacuzzi. 2 pumps, 1 pump runs one side, one runs the other side. Bullfrog is primarily the same.
If I hit pump one with the divertor pointed to the middle both seats get equal pressure. If I turn it to the right one seat gets less the other more, turn it all the way to the right and one seat gets none. When the diverter is in the middle you are dividing the pressure between two seats. Technically not full power, right? At least getting as much power as both seats can.
On either spa I am not including other jets or foot jets that take flow as well.
So take a Bullfrog with 2 pumps, same as the Jacuzzi one pump runs one side the other pump runs the other side. If I close one BF divertor down at the btm, it will send full power to the other seat, so one seat get less. If I open them both up you again divide that pressure between 2 seats. So really both seats are getting as much as the can, but not really full power just as much as that pump can deliver GPM divided by 2. And again not including foot jets or some of the other jets taking flow.
I will say with Bullfrog you do not have all the hoses, manifolds 3/4" lines running to 30 jests or 90* elbows a normal spa would have, so I believe you are getting more pressure from the pump without restriction from all the plumbing in a normal spa. When you say each seat gets full power in a way it's right, but its really not.
Now when you look at a Artesian platinum class with it's direct flow system and one pump per seat if they still have it, then yes each seat is getting full power or at least as much as it can with plumbing restrictions and what not. In other terms one pump per seat. It actually was/is a really cool system, but I didn't really find in any more powerful than anybody else's system. But it was a great sales pitch like any other spa has.
Make any sense?
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Yes, your explanation of most other tub brands makes sense in that you have to divert pressure at some seats in order to get more pressure at another. That's my point. The difference with a Bullfrog, as I have explained several times, is that you don't have to sacrifice pressure at one seat in order to get more at another. Just as you said above, in a Jacuzzi if someone wants more pressure you have to divert pressure from someone else.
In a Bullfrog every seat can choose their own pressure level independent of the other seats, and even with all the seats fully open there is plenty of pressure at every seat, almost too much. You don't have to decide who gets full pressure and who doesn't. I think the misconception might be that people who haven't tried a Bullfrog think that if all the seats are set to full, that there is not enough pressure to go around, kind of like the middle diverter setting you were describing above on a Jacuzzi which can only put out a medium amount of pressure when divided between two seats. This is not the case in a Bullfrog.
I tested many other brands of hot tub and every one forced me to divert pressure away from some seats in order to get full pressure at another seat. And every time I asked the sales rep "What happens when I have all the seats occupied and everyone wants full power" they all made some excuse like "You'll never really have a full tub" or "Most people don't want full power anyway", etc.
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Each seat in a bullfrog is a diverter in a way. Turning on and off the jets in a given insert will effect the pressure at that seat. The max pressure at each seat is dependent on the combination of seat inserts you choose. If you turn off the jets at one seat you are diverting water away from that seat. That will effect the amount of water flow available at the other seats.
If you picked all seats that had a large water flow requirement ( large diameter jets for example) versus all seats that have a small water flow requirement ( small diameter jets) there will be less or more water flow at each seat.
So the combination of insert types that you pick, will effect the max amount of water flow available at each insert if all the jets are open in each one. If a certain combination of inserts are chosen, in theory/practice you might not feel a substantial change in pressure at each seat. Say you have such a combination and you decide that you want all seats to have inserts that require a large water flow for full effect. The pressure available at each seat will decrease. That is where the psychics come in.
So a positive of the bullfrog is that you can pick the types of jets that each seat has and then move the inserts around. The ability to buy additional inserts could have a positive or a negative effect on the tub. That is why you wet test and pick the the best tub for you. As I said before it is like running shoes, Nike or New Balance or Ascis and so on. It is what feels the best to you
Sorry for being so long winded