Hot Tub Forum
Original => Hot Tub Forum => Topic started by: PackerPaul on October 21, 2005, 12:10:31 am
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I'm in Minneapolis for two weeks for work & I looked up an Arctic Spa dealer to visit as they had been on my short list of potential purchases. There were no Arctic dealers within a resonable distance to me in southern Wi so I crossed them off my list and put a deposit on another hot tub last weekend.
I was upfront with the salesman as I talked with him about my location and my latest purchase. He was happy to talk to me ( I was the only one in the store the whole time) even though he knew he wasn't going to sell me his spa.
I have to say that I was very impressed with the Arctic line & found myself wishing I could have had the opportunity to seriously consider them. The redwood cabinets were easily the nicest cabinets I had seen so far. The covers were very impressive.
One thing I found curious....no pricing anywhere! We didn't really discuss price other than for him to say I could have gotten into a Tundra for about what I paid for my Caldera Niagra.
One thing that bothered me......We were discussing FF vs. TP(?)(naturally ;)), and he commented that my FF Caldera would freeze up in 3 hours if I lost power in sub-zero weather!!!! I didn't argue the point with him as I really have no idea if this is true or not. This got me thinking later.....how long could I expect my spa to last without damage if I lost power in Jan/Feb So.Wi. winters? I can understand his point that TP would probably last longer( especially the component area ie. pumps, motors as my FF tub area would add very little heat to that area during a power outage vs. his Arctic system), but 3 hours?????
Anybody here lost their power during the dead of winter and had any freeze damage?
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I think you should look in the 'Beating A Dead Horse' forum - you may be surprised at what you find. I'm new around here but the debate and answer to your question is apparently quite old.
Good Luck!
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I have read all of the posts on Arctic TP vs. FF debates. I don't remember any of them addressing potential power failure issues and how long you have till serious freezing could happen. I was just curious if anyone has had a sub zero failure and what they experienced from it.
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Actually I thought the same thing after I reread your post - sorry for jumping to inconclusive conclusions. I'm living in the Ottawa Valley and we had a -40C cold snap last year which is pretty darn cold. I'd have the same concerns if the (partial FF?...Thermopane.) tub I'm getting, shut down for a few days. I bet if it's cold enough and nobody noticed or you weren't around, you're screwed no matter what the type of tub construction. But that's just me speaking from inexperience again so I should leave replies to people who might actually know something. :-[
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For what it is worth, last during last Christmas' ice storm I lost power for about 18 hours and my tub went from 102-95. It was around 10F if I remember right.
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At 20-30 below if the power shuts down at your house the last thing you need to worry about is your tub. Life or death will take priority. But FYI at that temp a plan will have to be sought for any type of tub construction or insulation because freezing is inevitable. If theres a tub problem and it is not powered up a plan is your best course of action. Make sure your dealers number or your repair guys number is close at hand. A simple light bulb or small electric heater placed inside the cabinet will ward off freezing until the vessel water reaches the freezing point. While it is true that a FF tubs equipment area will freeze quicker than a TP equipment area. The vessel on a FF tub will last longer than the vessel on a TP tub if it goes that far. If you take a styrofoam cup thats 2 inches thick and fill it with warm water and a styrofoam cup thats regular thick and do the same then set them outside in -20-30 temps the difference is negligable but the thicker foam cup will last longer. Which means nothing. The equipment area on a FF tub will be easier to keep heated if there's a problem for an extended period of time. So pretty much I think haveing a plan instead of worrying about which will freeze quicker is more important. Any temp down to about 15-20 above is easy to deal with but below that and it becomes a planning type issue. I use a portable propane forced air heater in my garage. This heater can be directed towards my HT and my tub can be tarped in it's own little house if need be to effectivly keep it from freezing and to aid my repair in a warm environment. Or I have a back up Gen Set available....LOL Contingency plans man.
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I remember seeing a letter written by a Hot Spring owner (in NY I believe) It told a story about a spa that went for like 3 days without power during a blizzard. The temp went from 103 down to about 85.
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Being a Florida boy, I don't know squat about cold weather......
That being said, sounds like a generator would be a necessity for cold weather tub owners. I would think running the tub just 2-3 hours a day would be enough to fend off freezing. Certainly a kerosene heater in the equipment compartment would be a consideration as well.
Or you could just keep your tub at my house..... 8)
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I live in the northern hemisphere, far away from any oceanic influence - our temps get hot, hot hot in the summer (3 months if lucky), and can be downright nasty in the winter (6-7 months). (-30 C is ? in F?)
There is always much debate over Arctic and I hope that being an Arctic owner I could shed some 1st hand experience onto some of these questions. However, my tub/power has yet to fail me at any time, neverless during the winter. If that does happen at some point, I will be glad to share my experience with anyone interested.
Typically, power failures do not last days. However, if that did occur, I'm confident that it would be relatively painless to maintain the integrity of my tub in the meantime.
Jc
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PackerPaul-
What Arctic dealer did you visit? Was it the one in Burnsville by any chance? (about 20 miles south of MPLS)
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What I have heard you do if you loose power for an extended amount of time is to cover the tub with several blankets if possible and DO NOT open the cover. I have also heard of the lightbulb or small space heater in the pump compartment. But I have a hard time with that one since oh ya I don't have any power so how can I power the light bulb or space heater. The only way you could do that is if you obviously have a generator.
so Paul how about them packers!!!!
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and he commented that my FF would freeze up in 3 hours if I lost power in sub-zero weather!!!!
3 Hours? Sure, with the cover open maybe.
His presentation to you may have been very credible up until then but he loses it there. Selling based on mistruths about the competition and using fear is unfortunate. In his defense, maybe he really thinks that because that's what he was told but it's not even close.
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A simple light bulb or small electric heater placed inside the cabinet will ward off freezing until the vessel water reaches the freezing point.
Er, and you run this light bulb how? :) Squirrel in cage?
Seems like catch-22, unless you assume you have a generator, and then, you'd probably use the power for the house. (Perhaps you could spare 100W for the spa... :) )
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You can go to www.goarctic.com where they have results from power loss testing and freeze up---
The thought is and it makes mechanical sense that the pumps and lines will be protected for some time as it will take days to cool off 400 gallons of water at 100 + degrees that is insulated. Most FF spas pumps and lines are not insulated so you figure it out----you can also place a small fan forced heater in cabinet which will heat it up so things will not freeze (you may need a generator)
Another consideration is your pump(s) or heater failing in the cold of winter-say over a holiday weekend--it does not have to be a power outage. I feel better that i can stick a heater in it till a replacement can be found, possibly days.
I live in Northern Ontario where it gets very cold and i do own an Arctic because its a good tub and it makes sense. (at least to me)
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On a full foam spa, it's not the water in the shell that will freeze as quick, it's the equpiment area that you need to worry about. Put a cup of water outside when it's cold, and see how long it takes to freeze. Put a pump outside with the unions attached along with a heater, and see how long it takes to freeze. You will have anywhere from a few hours to whenever. But if it does freeze it you have about a 50/50 chance of something cracking (freezeing isen't covered under anyones warranty as far as I know). Each winter my company (in Breckenridge, CO) dethaws rufly 40-60 frozen spas. I have yet to dethaw an Arctic Spa!
Yes a small light bulb, or space heater will help keep the equipment from freezing. That is if you get the space heater or bulb in your tub quickly. An Arctic will have 4 plus days at 0 degrees (if the spa was at 104, the cover is on, and all your doors are on) before anything comes close to freezing because of the heatlock system.
Call up any "service company" (in a cold weater area), and ask how many frozen spas have you fixed? How many were Arctic Spas?
When an Arctic sales person tells this to a customer, they are not selling this feature basied on fear. It's one more "advantage" of why Arctic makes such a great spa. There is upgradability, access, freeze protection (with no power), energy efficency, thicker cover, forever floor (able to sit right on the dirt), CEDAR cabinets, etc....
Michael
www.HeavenlyTimes.com
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The point is not how long the water inside the tub will go before it freezes, FF tub will retain water temp's for days or weeks sitting with no power!
The problem is that the equipment area is outside all the insulation, with an uninsulated door between the outside and equipment. What happens with FF design during power or eqiupment failure is that, hours later the water can still be warm inside the tub while the water sitting in the pumps and heater can begin to freeze.
Unless it is way way below freezing I have never seen or heared a tub freezing in 3 hours, I would say 6 to 8 hours before freezing starts. I have seen it happen overnight or while people are gone for the day! And they can't figure out why the water in the tub is still warm and their topside control is displaying ICE and their pumps are humming! Most times we get there before the ice damages anything, and blast the equipment area with a heater. I have also seen whole spa packs destroyed from ice expanding and cracking pump wet ends, heaters, or pipe fittings.
I hope this helps answer your question.
Enjoy your spa.
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Contingency plans man.
Lots of excellent advice ...thanks to all
I was more concerened with equipment failure than with total power failure as that is quite rare in our parts...southern Wi. Hopefully equipment failure will be rare too. A small heater or light bulb sounds like good advice till service can respond.
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PackerPaul-
What Arctic dealer did you visit? Was it the one in Burnsville by any chance? (about 20 miles south of MPLS)
Yes....It was a very impressive store with lots of spas & many filled & ready to test. They had a nice display set-up with all the covers off and a cutaway section of just a corner seat to show the thickness of the shell and insulation.
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Call up any "service company" (in a cold weater area), and ask how many frozen spas have you fixed? How many were Arctic Spas?
When an Arctic sales person tells this to a customer, they are not selling this feature basied on fear.
That is certainly something to boast about as is anything that is a positive about your brand. At the same time, the example in this thread of boosting ones image by going into negatives about other brands is a less honorable approach, especially if the information given (that FF spas freeze in 3 hrs) is misinformation.
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On my first Sundance hot tub, I went 1 1/2 weeks in freezing temperatures before it was down to 52 degrees from 104. Mine had foam from the shell to the cabinet. How in the world can a spa without that kind of foam not freeze quickly? That sounds like a load of ..... I can only compare it to my house. I had blown in cellulose and it is from the exterior foam board to the dry wall. Now my neighbor has regular insulation. My house is 25% bigger and my bills are much lower than his. If you don't have good insulation on a tub and it isn't filled in foam then I would worry! They must have quite a story convincing people that a little foam goes a long way. Logic tells you that they are feeding you a really good story. I prefer proof and I have had it proven many times.
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On my first Sundance hot tub, I went 1 1/2 weeks in freezing temperatures before it was down to 52 degrees from 104. Mine had foam from the shell to the cabinet. How in the world can a spa without that kind of foam not freeze quickly? That sounds like a load of ..... I can only compare it to my house. I had blown in cellulose and it is from the exterior foam board to the dry wall. Now my neighbor has regular insulation. My house is 25% bigger and my bills are much lower than his. If you don't have good insulation on a tub and it isn't filled in foam then I would worry! They must have quite a story convincing people that a little foam goes a long way. Logic tells you that they are feeding you a really good story. I prefer proof and I have had it proven many times.
I suspect old Rotty is the Sundance dealer in St. Louis. Notice it posts againt the St. Louis dealers site about how wonderful Mirage is (a Sundance dealer) and then makes a 1 1/2 week no freeze claim here while taking shots at Archrival Arctic. I suppose when you thawed the pumps, they worked Ok eh? ;) By the way, how'd you like the little sign the Arctic folks put up at the show pointing to all those flapping hoses on their spas. LOL
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Rex-
What photos are you talking about? Should I contact Bob? I will sure toss back a few for you in Mexico, as long as the place isen't trashed by the time I get there...
Michael
www.HeavenlyTimes.com
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Here's a scare tactic for you. A FF tub dealer say's do not buy an Arctic Tub because if there is a power failure and it is down for an extended time an Arctics vessel will freeze faster and that is the most expensive part of the tub. In our FF tubs the equipment will only freeze as a safe gaurd and it can be easiely replaced. But when an Arctic freezes it will be to costly to repair.
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I think it is stlrex that is in the ho tub business based on his lingo. I bet he is the Arctic store owner or related to someone there. No wonder he claims so much and has so much information. You must have a cut throat business to toss so much information around like you do.
P.S. I actually do accounting work from home-sorry! :D
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Rottweiler-
I sure hope Sti-rex isen't an actual dealer, otherwise he wasted my time. I have spent a few hours e-mailing back and forth answers on the Arctic Spa. I then called the owner of the Arctic Spa's St. Louis and made him promise to buy me a beer at our dealer seminar for helping him get a sale. This guy Sti-rex is a VERY informed consumer, and is very proud of his purchase. Bob (owner of Arctic Spas St Louis) told me he visited that store many times before making a purchase.
I can forward the e-mails if you would like the proof.
Michael
www.HeavenlyTimes.com
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The point is not how long the water inside the tub will go before it freezes, FF tub will retain water temp's for days or weeks sitting with no power!
The problem is that the equipment area is outside all the insulation, with an uninsulated door between the outside and equipment. What happens with FF design during power or eqiupment failure is that, hours later the water can still be warm inside the tub while the water sitting in the pumps and heater can begin to freeze.
Unless it is way way below freezing I have never seen or heared a tub freezing in 3 hours, I would say 6 to 8 hours before freezing starts.
This makes me wonder if you live in an area where freezing is of no issue. Than is it fair to assume that a FF will substantially out perform a TP design as they will hold water temp better and for hot weather climates this is the issue anyway not equipment freezing.
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Just to add .....I am a FF guy....But I do think when done right that TP can also work, I just think that there more benefits to FF but again both can work. I also think you have to reach more find the benefits of the TP design. I have never lived in a cold weather climate so I am not familiar with some of the things a person must do to prevent freezing in much of the home besides just the spa. Am I wrong to think that if you are worried a freeze when power is lost that you can throw a heavy blanket over the equipment and also at what point does a TP lose its ability to keep the equipment area warm.
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at what point does a TP lose its ability to keep the equipment area warm.
That is a good question. It would appear that the Arctic guys have on the stats on freeze times for FF, I can only assume they have a freeze time for an Arctic. Is it 4 days? 1 week? 4 weeks?
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Think about pump or heater FAILURE, or GFCI trip NOT poweroutage...when its -20 C out, water freezes very fast like in the pump or heater or lines that have NO insulation protecting them. You leave for work and all is well you come home from work 8-10 hrs later things will freeze in a FF spa--the tub water and shell will still be warm but your pump,heater and lines are all exposed to that COLD ambient outside temperature of -20 (you see the point). Now you need a replacement part possibly pump or heater do you actually think you will get one that evening?Not likely, we are talking about a Spa Guy/salesman. I'll take my chances with TP tub(which will retain the heat from the hot water protecting equipment) like an Arctic at least where i live.....where it does get belowing freezing!
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Got news for you. At -20 that hollow cavity won't be far behind the non insulated equipment bay as far as freezing goes...no matter what the Arctic people claim.
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. I'll take my chances with TP tub(which will retain the heat from the hot water protecting equipment) like an Arctic at least where i live.....where it does get belowing freezing!
So how does heat and life of motors factor in . It is reasonable and accepted that heat is what cuts short the life of most any motor in many different applications ......How is it that trapping heat and what amounts to baking the motors is some how a good thing. I think Arctic really does build a fine product and has many things that it does well. But there are reasonable questions to what claims are sometimes made.
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Just to add for me this is a very interesting topic as i have never fully appreciated how the TP in some circumstances would offer any real advantage. It seems to me that in extreme cold climates it may at times offer some upsides but in other climates it will simply not be as efficient.
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I love it...TP vs FF--The idea is that with TP the 105 degree water will keep the equipment area warm and being insulated on top with lid and cavity with insulation all around it and insulated floor, you will retain a heated air space possibly postponing freezing time. It will take hours if not days to cool 450 gallons of water thats insulated.
These spa motors are meant to be run in a higher ambient temp. look at the name plate on motor somewhere around 50 C =140 F(approx) not really a consideration---when we are talking about freeze up anyways
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Sorry but you can not have it both ways, You except people to take a giant leap of faith to buy into this concept as it was already mentioned by TP advocate a full foam will keep the water hot longer without out heat to now and try to twist this into something else is simply not credible and dishonest.
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I love it...TP vs FF--The idea is that with TP the 105 degree water will keep the equipment area warm and being insulated on top with lid and cavity with insulation all around it and insulated floor, you will retain a heated air space possibly postponing freezing time. It will take hours if not days to cool 450 gallons of water thats insulated.
These spa motors are meant to be run in a higher ambient temp. look at the name plate on motor somewhere around 50 C =140 F(approx) not really a consideration---when we are talking about freeze up anyways
As a learning experience for us all....I would bet that if you put a thermometer in the equipment area of a TP the temp will exced 140F .....
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I think it is stlrex that is in the ho tub business based on his lingo. I bet he is the Arctic store owner or related to someone there. No wonder he claims so much and has so much information. You must have a cut throat business to toss so much information around like you do.
P.S. I actually do accounting work from home-sorry! :D
Bzzzzzzzzp - wrong answer. You simply have no credibility in my opinion as you obviously came here simply to attack. You offer no one opinions except for a token two. If you think Mirage is fine, say so and that's OK. Did you shop at Arctic StL?. Have you wet tested their spas? Did you try to negotiate with the St. Louis dealer.? Do you know anything about the brand? I highly doubt it. I have nothing against Sundance and have not attacked the brand. I think their filters are expensive, but that's another thread. I disapproved of a local dealers tactics and responded to another forum members questions. Get over it and quit whining. Gee, just because a person chooses to learn as much as possible about a purchase doesn't make them a dealer. But I'll take it as a complement. Thank you.
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Sorry but you can not have it both ways, You except people to take a giant leap of faith to buy into this concept as it was already mentioned by TP advocate a full foam will keep the water hot longer without out heat to now and try to twist this into something else is simply not credible and dishonest.
I've seen it as the FF people twisting it also. They talk about the spa not freezing, but they're not including the mostly exposed equipment, which no one appears to dispute will freeze sooner in a FF vs a TP. Perhaps each has its strengths and weaknesses. But assuming fully exposed pump parts, I'm not sure how FF pumps wouldn't freeze faster. I don't know how long power normally is out in the winter if it is knocked out. I remember one ice storm in the midwest knocking out power for 1-2 days, but no more. Ample time for FF equipment to freeze, perhaps not enough time for TP equipment to freeze. I find the argument interesting, but not particularly important in the lower midwest states.
I asked the same question regarding ambient temps around the pumps and got an answer of the pump area reaching between 120F and 125F maximum. That data came from the dealer based on private tests at the mfr. However, I do not know the exact test criteria that yielded that number and the test was conducted by the mfr so that number comes with a caveat. One can dispute the number, but at least in my mind, the dealer had an immediate answer which may be better than general speculation.
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Stl-Rex,
First let me say ...I was only pointing out the differences and what lead me to post in the first place was the observation that if the real biggest benefit to the TP style is freezing in the equipment area than in areas where freezing is of no concern and since it was pointed out by a advocate of the TP style than a FF would keep the water hotter and for a longer period of time without power than in those areas it would certainly be more efficient .....As for the temp question I hoped that someone like you would go and stick a thermometer in the equipment area so we could know, it would not be hard to do. And again I will say that I truly think Arctic builds a good spa and for some people it may be the very best spa but that they may not be the best spa everyone and there designs in some areas may not be as efficient some others.
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Think about pump or heater FAILURE, or GFCI trip NOT poweroutage...when its -20 C out, water freezes very fast like in the pump or heater or lines that have NO insulation protecting them. You leave for work and all is well you come home from work 8-10 hrs later things will freeze in a FF spa--the tub water and shell will still be warm but your pump,heater and lines are all exposed to that COLD ambient outside temperature of -20 (you see the point). Now you need a replacement part possibly pump or heater do you actually think you will get one that evening?Not likely, we are talking about a Spa Guy/salesman. I'll take my chances with TP tub(which will retain the heat from the hot water protecting equipment) like an Arctic at least where i live.....where it does get belowing freezing!
Lets also keep in mind that some FF tubs and some partial foam tubs have insulated equipment areas, or a winter kit as Arctic calls it. In my GL there is thinner foam next to the equipment bay and removable reflective R20 insulation surrounding the equipment area. This thinner foam does generate alot more heat loss from the vessel than the other areas with more foam. this warmth radiates into the equipment helping it to keep from freezing longer. Now at -20-30 F heat loss from any brand TP or FF (Arctic or Hot Springs) is quit substantial (look at it in an infered camera once) And a repair will need to be made ASAP. A contingency plan needs to be directed. Tarp and heater for me to supply the repair guy (myself) with a warm place to fix it. But if I wasn't fixing it myself and I had to call the repair guy, and I let him know I had the tub covered and was blowing heat under the cover to make it comfortable for his repair!!!!! Maybe the lady down the street can wait till it warms up a bit!! Hot Springs and Marquis in this area (Northern Minnesota) offer a winter kit for there tubs that insulates the equipment area. That advantage for the TP guys is gone IMO. I still think a combination of TP and 3/4 foam is the best...why cause I built it!! And it works good.
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Posted by: Mendocino101
""""As a learning experience for us all....I would bet that if you put a thermometer in the equipment area of a TP the temp will exced 140F ..... """"""
As regards to this post. I keep a thermometer on the inside of the equipment area. It's almost always with in 1 degree of the actual water temperature.
The only time it gets to a 120 is when all pumps (usually only in a Legend spa with 3 4hp 56 frame pumps) are on for a few hours. Example a home show! Other then that the temp in the equipment area doesn't get much hotter the 110 but almost always around 100-104.
Here is a proposal. Find an Arctic Spa owner who actually had to get his/her spa fixed because of freezing? Then lets actually find out how long the power was out, what temperature the spa set at before power loss, make sure the cover was on, and the doors are on. Compare that number to the amount of frozen spas from each other company.
I fix rufley 50 frozen spas each winter. Not once in 7 years have we had to replace any component on an Arctic Spa do to freezing! That is because for 5 plus days if the water was at 104, cover on, and doors on the spa will retain heat at ZERO. I've been told by some of the Canadian dealers that it can go that long at -20. But I've only seen 0.
Michael
www.HeavenlyTimes.com
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Posted by: Mendocino101
""""As a learning experience for us all....I would bet that if you put a thermometer in the equipment area of a TP the temp will exced 140F ..... """"""
As regards to this post. I keep a thermometer on the inside of the equipment area. It's almost always with in 1 degree of the actual water temperature.
The only time it gets to a 120 is when all pumps (usually only in a Legend spa with 3 4hp 56 frame pumps) are on for a few hours. Example a home show! Other then that the temp in the equipment area doesn't get much hotter the 110 but almost always around 100-104.
Here is a proposal. Find an Arctic Spa owner who actually had to get his/her spa fixed because of freezing? Then lets actually find out how long the power was out, what temperature the spa set at before power loss, make sure the cover was on, and the doors are on. Compare that number to the amount of frozen spas from each other company.
I fix rufley 50 frozen spas each winter. Not once in 7 years have we had to replace any component on an Arctic Spa do to freezing! That is because for 5 plus days if the water was at 104, cover on, and doors on the spa will retain heat at ZERO. I've been told by some of the Canadian dealers that it can go that long at -20. But I've only seen 0.
Michael
www.HeavenlyTimes.com
Mike...
Sounds great........ fantastic......wonderful.....but what I posted about was in the areas where freezing does not occur.....where it is of no issue....it means nothing...on the coldest of nights it might get into the 30's ....and that is very very rare.....than based on what I have read and as pointed out by a Ari tic owner, a FF spa will keep the water hotter and a for a longer period of time than a TP style will....and my point was that maybe in the climates where freezing is of concern it might make sense but in those areas where it is not....than its value means nothing and that in those areas a FF spa will be more efficient as pointed out by an Arctic owner.
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Mike...
Sounds great........ fantastic......wonderful.....but what I posted about was in the areas where freezing does not occur.....where it is of no issue....it means nothing...on the coldest of nights it might get into the 30's ....and that is very very rare.....than based on what I have read and as pointed out by a Ari tic owner, a FF spa will keep the water hotter and a for a longer period of time than a TP style will....and my point was that maybe in the climates where freezing is of concern it might make sense but in those areas where it is not....than its value means nothing and that in those areas a FF spa will be more efficient as pointed out by an Arctic owner.
Sure, if the power were to go out, I'm guessing a FF tub will hold the spa shell water temp longer all things being equal (cover thickness, starting temp etc). But you're talking about the non existent. Unless you're in a third world country, you're power's going to be back on in a day or two not a week or two. In days, perhaps hours, below 32F, a mostly uninsulated FF equipment area will more than likely freeze, a point yet to be refuted. Common sense dictates that an uninsulated area is subject to the elements.
You're trying to sneak efficiency into this when it is a separate issue. If you want to talk efficiency, you're talking about operation, not when the power is out. It's been widely acknowledged that well designed FF and TP tubs have similar efficiencies despite their design differences. The design difference, however, leaves the FF equipment "out in the cold". In the case of Arctic, since the equipments sits in the insulated area and the shell doesn't have back side insulation to prevent the heat from the motors penetrating the shell, more heat is captured when the pump is on. Since the method of filtration uses one of the main pumps, when the filter cycles run, that heat will be captured not wasted. One might argue that when the pumps aren't running, more heat is lost, but the method suggests (given similar efficiencies) that when the pumps are running, it appears to make up for it.
Efficiency is all speculation and although the ARC tests showed Arctic similar to or better than other FF tubs, the results were in a controlled environment with different cover thicknesses making them an interesting study, but not necessarily representative of actual use.
Since we're digging on everything FF and TP, I see complaints of summer tub temps being difficult to control. With a FF tub, other than propping up the cover, you're stuck. Arctic sells screened side panels which allows heat in the equipment area to escape and thus in hot climates keep the temperature under control. I know in the hot StL summers of 90F +, that might come in handy. I think I'd rather not have to prop the cover and let bugs, dirt etc in my water.
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That is a good question. It would appear that the Arctic guys have on the stats on freeze times for FF, I can only assume they have a freeze time for an Arctic. Is it 4 days? 1 week? 4 weeks?
Stabone, Guru, please asnwer this question. You seem to know how long it takes for other things to freeze, how long before the arctic freezes with no electricity?
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Posted by: HotTubMan
Stabone, Guru, please asnwer this question. You seem to know how long it takes for other things to freeze, how long before the arctic freezes with no electricity?
I can't tell you, I have never seen an Arctic Spa freeze. Not the water in the spa, not the water in the pipes, not the water in the equipment area. I can tell you that a few of my customers have had no power for 1-6 days (customers guess) in the middle of winter (Breckenridge, CO 9,800 feet) before they noticed the spa wasn’t operating. Not one of my Arctic Spa customers in 7 years of selling these spas have had a frozen part on the tub.
Please find an Arctic Spa customer who actually had a frozen spa, then let’s get the details. If and I mean if it happened it's a rare case.
As far as a full foam spa at least the equipment area it will be typically 6 or more hours before you can have a problem.
Michael
www.HeavenlyTimes.com
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Sure, if the power were to go out, I'm guessing a FF tub will hold the spa shell water temp longer all things being equal (cover thickness, starting temp etc). But you're talking about the non existent. Unless you're in a third world country, you're power's going to be back on in a day or two not a week or two. In days, perhaps hours, below 32F, a mostly uninsulated FF equipment area will more than likely freeze, a point yet to be refuted. Common sense dictates that an uninsulated area is subject to the elements.
So how long before a TP design will lose the heat in the equipment area does it buy you 6 hours or 2 days, I would think that whatever time you have once you start to drop you will drop quickly since there is nothing left to try and keep things warm. If you really want to know check the temp today and shut it off and than check in 12 hours and see what it is. I am not so sure why this seems to be so hard to understand but my post was in reference to water temp and in reading this thread It occurred to me that in areas (like where I am) freezing simply does not happen, So if the biggest advantage of a TP design does not really apply here and since it is fair to say that a FF will keep the water hotter with out power which would also mean it probably takes less to power to keep hot, than in this type of an environment a FF just might be the more effecient spa . I do not think its a reach or is there any twisting of whats being said. I have seen FF we carry lose power for 5 days and drop only 10 degrees. I am not so sure the TP design would do that but hey maybe so. But if freezing is a issue where you live than yes perhaps it has an advantage there.
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I would think that whatever time you have once you start to drop you will drop quickly since there is nothing left to try and keep things warm.
The perimeter is fully insulated. There's plenty of insulation to keep things warm. It's going to take a long time for 500 gallons of 104 degree water to freeze and the beauty of it is, that water will help keep the equipment from freezing substantially longer than uninsulated FF equipment areas.
I am not so sure why this seems to be so hard to understand but my post was in reference to water temp and in reading this thread It occurred to me that in areas (like where I am) freezing simply does not happen, So if the biggest advantage of a TP design does not really apply here and since it is fair to say that a FF will keep the water hotter with out power which would also mean it probably takes less to power to keep hot, than in this type of an environment a FF just might be the more effecient spa . I do not think its a reach or is there any twisting of whats being said. I have seen FF we carry lose power for 5 days and drop only 10 degrees. I am not so sure the TP design would do that but hey maybe so. But if freezing is a issue where you live than yes perhaps it has an advantage there.
Perhaps or perhaps not. Again, if a high percentage of the pump heat is retained during filtration, it may offset any inherent heat retention of FF. It's not just TP or FF, it has to be well executed for both. Remember, the TP spa is still well insulated so it's not as if you are comparing FF to no insulation. At that point, you're talking wet test. Where it's routinely well below freezing, TP might be an influencing factor, but shouldn't be the sole factor.
By the way, no comment on propping the cover vs venting the spa equipement area in those areas that get hot?
Stuart was right - pffffffffft - another can of worms opened!
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IF you lost power to your home - is the tub really going to be your concern? I don't have a fireplace or wood burning stove in my house so I would think my first priority is to keep my family warm. Next would be house pipes, then eventually hot tub. Heck anyone who lives with an updated kitchen doesn't have the ability to turn on the oven for warmth (I know this is extremely unsafe).
I see Mendo's point about FF being possibly more efficient as I do the Arctic side about protecting the pipes. Mendo is talking about the tub operating and the Arctic is talking about when it's not. I think everyone's in agreement that the weakest link in the FF tub is the equipment cabinet. Will it freeze solid at 0 F in 3 or 6 or 24 hours, I couldn't say but I believe no one can either. I personally would agree with Mendo that a FF tub's main water area is better insulated than a TP (see paragraph below). I am also amazed that Bosco 's water heated as quickly as it did during his initial (?) fill up. My water heats about 5 F an hour and it takes about 10 hours to heat it to temp, so I think the concept of using the heat from the pumps works.
I have a question though and Doc has brought this up as to how does a TP tub handle the wind? It is generally accepted in the housing industry that air leakage is the main culprit in houses losing their heat. Also it's accepted that sprayed in foam insulation stops heat loss and air infiltration. But there is an optimal amount of insulation and there is also the law of diminishing returns. I believe most FF tubs are insulated to that point (diminishing returns) for whatever reason (NOT OPENING UP ANOTHER ARGUMENT).
It sounds like I'm fence sitting and maybe I am but I truely didn't care what type of insulation my tub had. My original choice for a tub was Emerald which was TP, but I bought an Artesian which is FF. I will say that if I did buy an Emerald I was going to get it's best insulation package.
I know I didn't solve anything but I am going to say that if it's -20 F and I lose power I'm going to get my family to warmth, worry about my house and IF I have time I'll worry about the frozen tub. Heck if you lose power and are still in your house a few hours later, drain the sucker even if it's TP or FF!
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lol....Vinny...Vinny....that just makes to much sense....I think both are fine and each has certain advantages ....Sometimes and I am not implying it to anyone in this thread that some people will over state things on both sides......
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lol....Vinny...Vinny....that just makes to much sense....I think both are fine and each has certain advantages ....Sometimes and I am not implying it to anyone in this thread that some people will over state things on both sides......
I don't think it was directed at me, I try to stick to facts or factual speculation?. And it definitely wasn't an influencing factor for me. Mine was all wet test.
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I think you should look in the 'Beating A Dead Horse' forum - you may be surprised at what you find.
Like maybe your entire thread, heheh.
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Since I had the dubious distinction of starting this thread, I thought I should comment on what I have learned..
1. Have a plan! For those of us in the northern states where we have plenty of sub-freezing and sub-zero days each winter, this topic has great value. I plan on installing a remote temp sensorhttp://http://www.technika.com/Sper/s800025.htmhttp:// in my equipment area so I can always see my internal temp.(only $23 & has high/low temp alarms) I also intend to have a back-up plan to heat the equipment area if my spa loses power for any reason. ( I am buying a FF spa)
2. Some manufactuors are monitoring this site! I received an e-mail shortly after starting this thread from Arctic wanting to know the name & location of the dealer that I had visited. This to me speaks highly of them as well as this forums influence.
3. This forum is loaded with many smart people who can have a dissagrement about something and still remain fairly civil. This is rare on many internet forums and speaks well of the people and moderators.
Thanks again for all who contributed and I'll try not to start any topics that end up here again ;)
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Since I had the dubious distinction of starting this thread, I thought I should comment on what I have learned..
;)
I always recommend this site to people because I know it will make ANY individual a better informed consumer if they spend a few days/weeks monitoring it. This goes not only for techinal people, do-it-yourselfers, etc. but also for the average Joe/Jane who may be more of a hands off person.
Paul,
Let us know how things go, what won out in the end and what got you to pull the trigger and sign on the dotted-line.
P.S.- Reggie Bush sure would look good in Green and Yellow.
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2. Some manufactuors are monitoring this site! I received an e-mail shortly after starting this thread from Arctic wanting to know the name & location of the dealer that I had visited. This to me speaks highly of them as well as this forums influence.
This dosen't surprise me at all.
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I certainly know Cal Spas monitors this site as many calls as I get from corporate! LOL ;D ;D
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Has anyone mentioned the fact that if you buy an Arctic spa, you do not need to pour a concrete pad? It comes with its own floor, a very hard plastic.
We were unsure as to where to put the spa, so we removed some grass and had it placed there, just beyond the deck & flower garden. If we want to move it at any time, it's no hassle.
You need to factor in the cost of the concrete pad in the hot tub costs when comparing priced. And the ease of moving it ot another location if the need arises.
Astrid.
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Has anyone mentioned the fact that if you buy an Arctic spa, you do not need to pour a concrete pad? It comes with its own floor, a very hard plastic.
We were unsure as to where to put the spa, so we removed some grass and had it placed there, just beyond the deck & flower garden. If we want to move it at any time, it's no hassle.
You need to factor in the cost of the concrete pad in the hot tub costs when comparing priced. And the ease of moving it ot another location if the need arises.
Astrid.
Having a base is always best. There are other spas that could probably say that also but I don't think it's wise to advise people to do that.
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Why is it better to have a concrete base? This seems to be working well for us. The fact that we can re-locate it appeals to us.
Astrid.
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Why is it better to have a concrete base? This seems to be working well for us. The fact that we can re-locate it appeals to us.
Astrid.
I never said you "need to" have concrete only that all things being equal that is the best way to go. That doesn't mean it won't be OK the way you went and if it works best for you or a particular owner for whatever reason then they can decide to go that route.
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We have a HS Envoy and put it on a portable pad. We did however, dig up the sod first, put down a border with bricks and then fill it 2-3" deep with sand. We couldn't put the tub on our existing concrete patio as it is too sloped. We ended up putting the tub smack in the middle of our yard. We didn't want to add more concrete, so the portable pad was the way to go or so we thought... it was a bit more work than we anticipated and we kind of wish we would have just done a ground level deck or pavers... but its okay.
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Has anyone mentioned the fact that if you buy an Arctic spa, you do not need to pour a concrete pad? It comes with its own floor, a very hard plastic.
<snip>
Astrid.
Nope, not plastic, Astrid. The Arctic Spas Forever Floor is made from either hand-rolled or pressure-moulded (SMC) fiberglass composite.
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I remember seeing a letter written by a Hot Spring owner (in NY I believe) It told a story about a spa that went for like 3 days without power during a blizzard. The temp went from 103 down to about 85.
Yes.....but the equipment probably exploded from the expansion of the ice.
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Got news for you. At -20 that hollow cavity won't be far behind the non insulated equipment bay as far as freezing goes...no matter what the Arctic people claim.
Really? How?
When you say not far do mean about 4-5 days....?
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As a learning experience for us all....I would bet that if you put a thermometer in the equipment area of a TP the temp will exced 140F .....
We have one in a running spa in our showroom. The air space temperature in the cabinet is usually within a couple degrees of the water. If the spa has just completed a filtration cycle, user had the pump on high speed, etc....it may raise to 110 max. This is from my experiences with a operational spa, anyways......
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Yes.....but the equipment probably exploded from the expansion of the ice.
It did, they're designed that way.
Terminator
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Really? How?
When you say not far do mean about 4-5 days....?
Because there is nothing generating heat for the air space.
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Because there is nothing generating heat for the air space.
The natural transfer of heat from the spa vessel and the plumbing throughout the air space provides plenty of time before there is a serious problem.
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The natural transfer of heat from the spa vessel and the plumbing throughout the air space provides plenty of time before there is a serious problem.
The natural transfer of heat from the spa vessel and the plumbing throughout the air space to the outside air will only be hindered by a small layer of insulation. On a full foam spa, you have a large layer of insulation keeping that heat in the water.
Since you do not have the pumps to generate heat inside the cabinet, you are relying on the spa water to keep the temperature up. Last time I checked, using the object you are trying to keep warm AS the heat source to keep itself warm does not work very well. ( I hope that made sense.)
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The natural transfer of heat from the spa vessel and the plumbing throughout the air space provides plenty of time before there is a serious problem.
Really?
When you say plenty of time do mean about 4-5 days....?
Go check the brochure and see if you an come up with an answer.
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Really?
When you say plenty of time do mean about 4-5 days....?
Go check the brochure and see if you an come up with an answer.
At least 4-5 days...depending on the outside temp of course. We did a test last month in the yard of our shop. Warmed the spa to 104, then cut the power to it. After 5 days, the water temp was approx 45, with the air space (and all the equipment, plumbing, etc...) around the 40F mark. Outside temp was on average about -20c throughout the testing period.
They system works very well, especially in our colder climate. It's nice to be able to sell a product that has such an advantage for the climate it is exposed to.
Highly doubt you will find a specific answer in the brochure, as of course there is so many factors involved in making such a statement.
Hope my shared experience helps answer some questions for you. :)
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At least 4-5 days...depending on the outside temp of course. We did a test last month in the yard of our shop. Warmed the spa to 104, then cut the power to it. After 5 days, the water temp was approx 45, with the air space (and all the equipment, plumbing, etc...) around the 40F mark. Outside temp was on average about -20c throughout the testing period.
If that is true then it would be an advantage over some of the poorly insulated spas out there and if it works as well as you say it would even be on par with some of the well insulated full foam spas.
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If that is true then it would be an advantage over some of the poorly insulated spas out there and if it works as well as you say it would even be on par with some of the well insulated full foam spas.
Difference being, any foam fulled spa with no insulation surrounding the equipment compartment would have frozen pumps, lines, element, etc...while the Arctic is still above freezing. No way uninsulated components full of water do not freezr in that time period. Regardless of heaters, blankets, your wifes hair dryer, etc.....
I would have to say "on par" would be an understatement. Seems like a superior design for cold weather climates.
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Difference being, any foam fulled spa with no insulation surrounding the equipment compartment would have frozen pumps, lines, element, etc...while the Arctic is still above freezing.
I'm getting confused....I've never seen an Arctic Spa in person so help me out, if you don't mind (And I don't have a pig in this race because I'm in a much more hospitable climate than ya'll, I'm just trying to learn :)).
If the Arctic spa is hollow underneath (for the most part) and the pump, heater, etc are in a hollow area, what is advantageous about that design over a full-foam spa that has the plumbing contained in high-density foam but the pump, heater, etc in a hollow area? What am I missing? Thanks!
Terminator
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Difference being, any foam fulled spa with no insulation surrounding the equipment compartment would have frozen pumps, lines, element, etc...while the Arctic is still above freezing. No way uninsulated components full of water do not freezr in that time period. Regardless of heaters, blankets, your wifes hair dryer, etc.....
I would have to say "on par" would be an understatement. Seems like a superior design for cold weather climates.
LOL, says who, you? You've obviously swallowed the Kool-aide in one big gulp. That old "their equipment will freeze" scare tactic is soooo old but it sure sounds good in your presentation doesn't it. Apparently you either don't have the knowledge or the good sense to boast about your own product without knocking the competition (regardless of it's validity) as a means to feel better about yourself. Go ahead and pat yourself on the back and while you're at it tell all the customers that everyone's else's siding will warp except yours, everyone else's covers will collapse, everyone else's water will get cloudy except yours, 4 out of 5 dentists choose your spas, the pope has one in his winter cabin and why not cater to the aging population with something along the lines of your spa being proven to cause greater weight loss, reduced male pattern baldness and improved erectile function when compared to full foam spas.
On a side note, it's not real football unless there are 4 downs.
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I'm getting confused....I've never seen an Arctic Spa in person so help me out, if you don't mind (And I don't have a pig in this race because I'm in a much more hospitable climate than ya'll, I'm just trying to learn :)).
If the Arctic spa is hollow underneath (for the most part) and the pump, heater, etc are in a hollow area, what is advantageous about that design over a full-foam spa that has the plumbing contained in high-density foam but the pump, heater, etc in a hollow area? What am I missing? Thanks!
Terminator
The equipment is indeed in a hollow area, the difference being that the access panels will not be insulated, allowing for heat venting.....thus providing no protection in case of a power interuption.
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The equipment is indeed in a hollow area, the difference being that the access panels will not be insulated, allowing for heat venting.....thus providing no protection in case of a power interuption.
???? I just went and opened up a HotSpring Envoy. There is high density, closed cell foam insulation surrounding three sides of the equipment area. The door is a thick Everwood panel with an insulation panel mounted to the inside of it.
I would imagine every other full foam spa is pretty similiar.
What is Arctic doing that's different than every other spa company?
I do appreciate your responses and I really am trying to understand. I enjoy learning about innovative ideas in this industry. :)
Terminator
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If the power goes out, you can always put a blanket in front of the vents on a full foam spa.
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BTW, my last post should not in any way be construed as anti-Arctic but rather "anti-cflrules scare tactic approach". There are a lot of happy Arctic customers on these sites and a lot of arctic dealers who sell on their products merits so my hats off to them as they seem to be a fast growing spa company s they must be doing things right.
To further set the record straight I grew up in upstate NY and must admit I'd get home from school and watch CFL games on TV. I always found it odd that they were on day like Thursday and the field was the size of a cornfield but I watched and found it odd but fun. I watched Warren Moon play pro ball before any of the NFL watchers knew his name (assuming they weren't from the UW area). To us growing up, Canada seemed like just another state and when I got to my older teens I found out it had the good beer. But don't get me started on ice soccer hockey (sorry, I couldn't help it)!
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Difference being, any foam fulled spa with no insulation surrounding the equipment compartment would have frozen pumps lines, element, etc...while the Arctic is still above freezing. No way uninsulated components full of water do not freeze in that time period. Regardless of heaters, blankets, your wife's hair dryer, etc.....
Keeping with your heat transfer philosophy, wouldn't the hot water in the plumbing and tub radiate toward the equipment?
When and if there was freezing around the equipment, would the ice damage all components you listed, or simply break the weakest link, the union?
We are in a cold climate, Whitby Ontario Canada. I know there are colder areas on both sides of the border. We received a call in December this year. A customers tub was freezing up.
When I spoke with the lady of the house, it was revealed that the husband had drained and refilled the tub one month earlier but did not turn the power back on. At the date of the service call, temperatures had been in the -7 to -15 celsius for a week.
When my technician went, the top of the water in the spa had a layer of ice. The equipment would not start because there was ice in the pump and plumbing.
We left a space heater in the equipment area for 24 hours, went back and started it up....and here is the unbelievable part, NO LEAKS, NO DAMAGE.
So, you talk with a great deal of confidence that other products WILL freeze and yours won't. Well, mine didn't, so if you can be wrong about one thing.....
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We have dealt with 5 freeze damaged spas that were under warrenty this year and they where all partially foamed spas. Because of this we tell our customers with TP spas to set more frequent filter cycles to keep the "dead air" space warm.
What we are finding is that when they are running the motors with the cover on they read 1 to 2 degrees above the set point but when the pumps turn off for more than 4 hours there is not only a temp drop but a chance of freezing plumbing in some spots.
Since we've had people increase filter times we have had next to no damage.
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I'll step away from cflrules with a different approach from an owner's perspective. The benefit, if there is one, as I see it, is that I can run three pumps at ~5F with wind and not have to worry about having to run the heater (from experience). Mine held temp just fine for 40 minutes (two cycles) at 102. I know because mine shows me the temp of the water (unlike some), not the set temp. Some here jaw about three pumps disables the heater (because from an electrical standpoint, you can't run three pumps and a heater simultaneously.) I say who cares? I don't need it.
What does three pumps get you? Good flow to all jets (and more of them) and all seats. The alternative is two pumps, fewer jets and less performance or strong "zoned" therapy that has other limitations. I don't have to live with the compromise.
Interestingly, those who don't have a hot tub don't appreciate ours near as much as those who do. Those who have them can't believe the power, but more importantly can't believe how good the deep therapy seat is and how effective it is. "I wish my spa had this seat" or similar has been the recurring theme.
From an energy use standpoint, we were in it most days in December (our coldest since '89). Our bill was up $15 over last year. However, we had new/extra X-mas decorations up including one of those obnoxious inflatable things. So I'm guessing our net bill increase was between $10 and $15. Not bad considering size (540 gal) and usage.
I just don't get why some Arctic folk focus on the once in a million possible but unsubstantiated theoretical benefit when a more tangible everyday benefit is so easy to explain.
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I have been working on spas for 9 years and I can honestly say that I have seen Hot Spring equipment comp. freeze in less then 24 hr. Sure the water up top was hot but the heart of the system frozen solid. 3/4 lines don't take long to freeze. On the other hand the Arctic spa does not have foam on back of the spa shell, so if there was a power outage the heat transferes back down to equip.(a basic rule). Now if this spa was installed in a climate where freezing doesn't happen there are still benifits of keeping all the wasted heat energy from motors(not just freezing) now your electric element doesn't have to turn on as offten to maintain heat in spa, less power usage means more money in your pocket. I think it just makes sense :-/
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I have been working on spas for 9 years and I can honestly say that I have seen Hot Spring equipment comp. freeze in less then 24 hr. Sure the water up top was hot but the heart of the system frozen solid. 3/4 lines don't take long to freeze. On the other hand the Arctic spa does not have foam on back of the spa shell, so if there was a power outage the heat transferes back down to equip.(a basic rule). Now if this spa was installed in a climate where freezing doesn't happen there are still benifits of keeping all the wasted heat energy from motors(not just freezing) now your electric element doesn't have to turn on as offten to maintain heat in spa, less power usage means more money in your pocket. I think it just makes sense :-/
Bill, can we get an IP check here?
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I checked with my home owners policy, all these posts are a moot point. I'm covered. :)
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I have been working on spas for 9 years and I can honestly say that I have seen Hot Spring equipment comp. freeze in less then 24 hr. Sure the water up top was hot but the heart of the system frozen solid. 3/4 lines don't take long to freeze. On the other hand the Arctic spa does not have foam on back of the spa shell, so if there was a power outage the heat transferes back down to equip.(a basic rule). Now if this spa was installed in a climate where freezing doesn't happen there are still benifits of keeping all the wasted heat energy from motors(not just freezing) now your electric element doesn't have to turn on as offten to maintain heat in spa, less power usage means more money in your pocket. I think it just makes sense :-/
Thank you very much for that insight magic man. I recently purchased an Arctic Tundra and did so because of their overall superior quality (IMO), seating layout, comfort & variety of seats, # of jets, etc. etc. etc. AND the Heatlock system. I did a lot of research before buying and my common sense dictated that for a number of reasons the heated chamber was superior to FF. My question to you as a repairman is during the summer months, I have read that Arctics will overheat due to their insulated system. I live in suburban Chicago and will have the spa in a heavily shaded yard. My dealer tells me I should have no problems (especially when I plan on bringing the water temp down to the high 80's in July and Aug) but in situations where a spa is in full sun and hot temps, vented cabinet panels can be installed to allow heat to escape. Could you offer me some expert non-biased advice as to what you have experienced on this subject and what I can expect to see? I would appreciate it! Thanks.
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I dont think magic man has been around in a long time, but I'll offer you my unsolicited and non-professional opinion, based on one summer in Sacramento CA with my Arctic.....
I read similar reports as you did about Arctic overheating in the heat, so I asked Arctic about that issue. I dont remember now whether I conversed with Dan, a tech- guy from Arctic or Hot tub Guru, a member here and a dealer......but the info I was given was this:
The concern for overheating and equipment failure is a myth, because those parts are made to work at well over 150 deg F. I asked if I should invest in vented cabinet panels, and he told me not to worry about it. Dispite his attempts to allay my concerns, I was still a bit worried that my filtration could be compromized if the tub kept going over set temp, therefore turning off the filtration cycle to prevent the water overheating. I watched my tub like a hawk this summer, and there was never a problem. There were certainly times that I'd see the filtration cycle "suspended" so the temp could come down, but I never had any water quality issues. The heat wave this summer was pretty awful, with I think 13 days in a row here of 100+ deg. days. I did prop a tennis ball under the cover for venting on hot days, and often opened it at night a few hours prior to using it.
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Thanks for the info Anne. Obviously your weather and ours are extremely different. It is rare when we get one - 100 degree day here in an entire summer. So, I'm really not worried about it; just curious. During your much longer summer, where do you keep your water set temp at? I am planning on gradually reducing it during June so that by July and August, I'll have water in the mid to high 80's. My dealer said that should be possible wihout vents, especially in my shaded yard. Can't you do something similar? If you cut back on the spa temp setting, your heater will run less (if at all) what with the outside temps at elevated levels.
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I had mine set at 99 in the heat of the summer. And I still think the heater was almost never on. I thought about turning it lower, but then it would not be a "hot tub" :) It is mostly shaded except for a short time in the morning.
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Anne, some would suggest you don't need a hot tub when it's a fricking 100+ for over 16 days in a row!!! I know - it's a DRY HEAT! Plus, I'm sure your nights get down to what, maybe the high 70's.
oooooo, chilly!
Our family has a lake home in northern WI (Rhinelander) and even in the middle of summer, you normally have nights in the 60's (good sleeping weather as we say in the midwest) and it's a pure delight to sit outside in our tub (a cheaper Keys Backyard we purchased at Home Depot 3 years ago before I knew anything about spas) and watch the thousands of stars (including shooters) overhead. No city lights nor any pollution to diminish the effect. You can't beat God's handywork!
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Sigh. I miss being places with no air/light pollution. Even when I go backpacking, it is still not the same as it was when I was a kid.
Its not generally 100+ here, but it does happen. In the summer it tends to be 70-95, with some variation, and in the winter 35-65. I'm looking forward to the colder weather if only because the tub will be that much more appealing. By the time i got it in late February, it was already starting to warm up a bit here.
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Hi Anne,
You should visit Central Oregon. A resort community, Sunriver, has a very aggressive light pollution policy. The skies are wonderful! The summers are warm, the winters are cold and can get snowy.
Regards,
Altazi
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Altazi, is that where your vacation house is that is getting the spa? Let us know when you are having a party!!! :D Good luck shopping, too. I have only been in southern and coastal oregon (driving from washington to CA), but still saw some beautiful places.
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Hi Anne,
Sorry for the delay in getting back to you - I was spending all my time in the other forum section.
Yes, my vacation home is in Sunriver. We are at about 4100 feet elevation - this is a high desert area, with relatively little precipitation. The skies are clear and dark (at night), and the aroma of the pines is heavenly. Sitting out on the decks (there are three to choose from) and looking at the stars is awe-inspiring. I am now also looking for a good telescope.
Regards,
Altazi