Hot Tub Forum
Original => Hot Tub Forum => Topic started by: Andocrx on November 11, 2018, 11:09:40 am
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Hello everyone,
Just wanted to ask if anyone owns or has any reviews on the following Hot spring spa models Flash, Pulse, and the Grandee.
Hot springs is one of the manufacturers we are interested and would like to hear more about them from people that purchased them before and hear about there experience with them.
Here in the Greater Toronto Area Canada hot spring spas are sold through Pioneer pools can anyone say how they been to deal with if any issues come up.
Thanks for your help in advance.
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Purchased a hot spring flash form my local pioneer pools. Flash is very similar to the pulse except a bit smaller. The hot tub is fantastic. Dealing with pioneer pools has been one of the best experiences I have had. From purchase to delivery to after sales all I have to say is great things. It has been a great experience and we are loving the hot tub.
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Purchased a hot spring flash form my local pioneer pools. Flash is very similar to the pulse except a bit smaller. The hot tub is fantastic. Dealing with pioneer pools has been one of the best experiences I have had. From purchase to delivery to after sales all I have to say is great things. It has been a great experience and we are loving the hot tub.
Hi there,
Thanks so much for your response may I ask where abouts are you located and which pioneer did you use?
How long have you had the Flash for now?
Would you be open to telling me what sort of deal did you get and what was all included in the package?
Thank you
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Have had the flash for about three months now I would rather not discuss pricing but feel compared to jacuzzi and arctic spa in my area I was treated very fair for what we received. Included steps, cover, lifter system, second set of filters, delivery which was top notch and chemical kit. What I liked is I was able to use pioneer for all electrical and concrete pad install. For me this was a deal maker. They arranged everything and even pricing on electrical and concrete was very fair. Great company to deal with and when looking at hot tubs I thought hot springs was right up there for build quality with all major brands. My wife and I liked the limelight series better the the 300 series from jacuzzi. We got the flash for about a grand less than what we were quoted a j-345 for and a lot less than the Arctic spa.
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I would rather not discuss pricing.
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Why not?
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I would rather not discuss pricing.
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Why not?
Slightly off topic but your interests and diligence might answer my question swilly. Just taking a shot at it anyways. Thanks in advance if you have some thoughts ! :)
Our tub is a 2005 Marquis Reward, Silver Anniversary. Differing from the Reward far as I can tell, it has the matching pumps (MP 160's) for rated power versus the non-S.A. that has a MP130 and MP160. I believe it has 'optional' color-fall lighting also. No idea what the list or street price was or the bump up in cost over the non SA. Do you know by chance what people paid for this model when new ?
My wife says she saw paperwork with a number around $12,000 and I'm sure if that's not an inflated quote, MSRP or "list", it was inclusive as many are with steps, chemicals, delivery / set-up etc....
I ask because I thought in some roaming around on forums, I'd seen a ref to something more like $8000. I doubt a 'step up' to the S.A. would have been more than a few hundred but not sure.
It was given to us and thus far I've accounted for;
-Professional movers/delivery $450,
-Electrician p/l - electrical run to the tub from farthest point in the house (main breaker box) with 240v 50 amp gfci and tub hook up $900
-My landscaping and supplies (free labor)- elevated terrace / patio, decorative retaining wall blocks (50) and paver stone (50), 2 cu yd fill dirt delivered , 1500# paver sand base, rental of packer, replacement wheelbarrow, new heater unit my installation $1170.
My free hot tub total is around $2520 and no complaints.
In fact, all the landscape work on my 57 year old frame and body has made me a prime candidate for therapeutic massage!
If your not careful, you'll go from wanting a hot tub to Needing a hot tub !! lol
Been up and running since Oct 28th - loving it !!
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I visited a Pioneer out in Kitchener during my search. They were pretty decent and upfront in store while I was there. I don't think I kept any pricing details. In the end I passed on them as there was no Pioneer close to my house. Further I was drawn to Hot Spring for their Salt Water Ace system. I was informed with ACE you have to replace the entire module every couple of years at a cost of about $1k. The Salt system from Arctic is a small module in the tub that is replaced and is under $200. Take this with a grain of salt. The sales guy may have been out to lunch that day.
All said, I did get an email from Pioneer yesterday...
Get a FREE Ace Salt System, valued at $1,799.00, when you buy an in-stock HotSpring Highlife Model..
Its also on there Twitter feed..
To Add to Bachmans story. I spent ALL day yesterday out building a small removable deck extension, stairs and skirting. My soft delicate hands are all cut up and my Muscles are sore. I did soak for about an hour last night and looking forward to tonight!
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HotSpring Highlife Model..
To Add to Bachmans story. I spent ALL day yesterday out building a small removable deck extension, stairs and skirting. My soft delicate hands are all cut up and my Muscles are sore. I did soak for about an hour last night and looking forward to tonight!
Great, doesn't it feel you 'deserve' a hot tub now !! lol
Off topic;
Today as I looked up a 'sale price' as advertised on a Reward spa, I noted it was pictured with the big bright chrome ringed jets, similar if not the same as the waterway jets HTU videos speak highly of. It got me to thinking these company's probably bid out those kit type of things and maybe every few years it's company A or B then XYZ another time. Bicycle company's do this with brakes, derailleurs and other components that are costly one-off's but cheap in mass purchase. I'm sure there are a number of good jets out there and maybe the chrome go on some and look better than on others.
I'm starting to appreciate the ivory or almond color jets on our tub mostly because the shell is a teal/green marbling and I think the chrome would be too much.
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Chris from HTU told me that Master went to CMP jets from Waterway starting in 2017. He also told me that it reduced leak failures by 70% (from, I presume, an already low number) and that the ones they chose were actually more expensive than the Waterway jets. Without mentioning Master (for fear of inviting a hate-on) I bumped an old thread on CMP vs Waterway to seek some other opinions.
For sure manufacturers will move it around based on cost and performance, especially for components they are out-sourcing anyway.
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Slightly off topic but your interests and diligence might answer my question swilly. Just taking a shot at it anyways. Thanks in advance if you have some thoughts ! :)
Our tub is a 2005 Marquis Reward, Silver Anniversary. Differing from the Reward far as I can tell, it has the matching pumps (MP 160's) for rated power versus the non-S.A. that has a MP130 and MP160. I believe it has 'optional' color-fall lighting also. No idea what the list or street price was or the bump up in cost over the non SA. Do you know by chance what people paid for this model when new ?
I'm still a real newbie relatively speaking and can barely get my head around competitive pricing in today's market (to wit, I have posted several rants on pricing secrecy in the hot world) so would not profess to know about pricing older tubs.
But I like the way you're thinking! 😁
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Chris from HTU told me that Master went to CMP jets from Waterway starting in 2017. He also told me that it reduced leak failures by 70% (from, I presume, an already low number) and that the ones they chose were actually more expensive than the Waterway jets. Without mentioning Master (for fear of inviting a hate-on) I bumped an old thread on CMP vs Waterway to seek some other opinions.
For sure manufacturers will move it around based on cost and performance, especially for components they are out-sourcing anyway.
If they did reduce their leaks by 70% 1) they REALLY had/have a quality control issue in the first place, 2) Its not about the parts but more about the process. The jet itself isn't the issue as much as is the gasket/silicone process, how you install/torque them down, how you plumb them and certainly how you prep the fiberglass... I call BS on claiming they solved their issue with more expensive jets but then again that entire HTU is a big Marketing ploy.
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Chris from HTU told me that Master went to CMP jets from Waterway starting in 2017. He also told me that it reduced leak failures by 70% (from, I presume, an already low number) and that the ones they chose were actually more expensive than the Waterway jets. Without mentioning Master (for fear of inviting a hate-on) I bumped an old thread on CMP vs Waterway to seek some other opinions.
For sure manufacturers will move it around based on cost and performance, especially for components they are out-sourcing anyway.
LOL even if he had a way to track this (which he absolutely doesn't) It still wouldn't be believable...his vids are good for a few laughs I will say that
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Chris from HTU told me that Master went to CMP jets from Waterway starting in 2017. He also told me that it reduced leak failures by 70% (from, I presume, an already low number) and that the ones they chose were actually more expensive than the Waterway jets. Without mentioning Master (for fear of inviting a hate-on) I bumped an old thread on CMP vs Waterway to seek some other opinions.
For sure manufacturers will move it around based on cost and performance, especially for components they are out-sourcing anyway.
If they did reduce their leaks by 70% 1) they REALLY had/have a quality control issue in the first place, 2) Its not about the parts but more about the process. The jet itself isn't the issue as much as is the gasket/silicone process, how you install/torque them down, how you plumb them and certainly how you prep the fiberglass... I call BS on claiming they solved their issue with more expensive jets but then again that entire HTU is a big Marketing ploy.
100% agree. I rarely see leaks from the jets, but even when you do it typically has nothing to do with the jet itself. It's the manufacturing process more than anything. HTU guy is a good salesman and sounds super knowledgeable to a consumer but a lot of what he says is total b.s. and spin to sell master spas.
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If they did reduce their leaks by 70% 1) they REALLY had/have a quality control issue in the first place, 2) Its not about the parts but more about the process. The jet itself isn't the issue as much as is the gasket/silicone process, how you install/torque them down, how you plumb them and certainly how you prep the fiberglass... I call BS on claiming they solved their issue with more expensive jets but then again that entire HTU is a big Marketing ploy.
How do you know that? How do know that their failure rate wasn't 2.0% and it went by down by 70% to 0.6%?
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LOL even if he had a way to track this (which he absolutely doesn't) It still wouldn't be believable...his vids are good for a few laughs I will say that
How do you know that? How do you know that Master didn't tell him that number themselves?
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If they did reduce their leaks by 70% 1) they REALLY had/have a quality control issue in the first place, 2) Its not about the parts but more about the process. The jet itself isn't the issue as much as is the gasket/silicone process, how you install/torque them down, how you plumb them and certainly how you prep the fiberglass... I call BS on claiming they solved their issue with more expensive jets but then again that entire HTU is a big Marketing ploy.
LOL even if he had a way to track this (which he absolutely doesn't) It still wouldn't be believable...his vids are good for a few laughs I will say that
100% agree. I rarely see leaks from the jets, but even when you do it typically has nothing to do with the jet itself. It's the manufacturing process more than anything. HTU guy is a good salesman and sounds super knowledgeable to a consumer but a lot of what he says is total b.s. and spin to sell master spas.
Lol, I flippin' knew that the haters would come out. That's why I didn't mention Master here lol:
https://www.whatsthebest-hottub.com/forum/index.php/topic,17903.0.html
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Rarely do I ever hear or see jet leaks. Can't imagine that it would make a difference between Waterway and CMP. I would assume that it is either error when installing the jet fittings or was an issue with a shell mold that didn't allow the jet body to seat properly. Either way, I could care less between the two jet manufacturers as I can't recall an issue with either or.
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Chris from HTU told me that Master went to CMP jets from Waterway starting in 2017. He also told me that it reduced leak failures by 70% (from, I presume, an already low number) and that the ones they chose were actually more expensive than the Waterway jets. Without mentioning Master (for fear of inviting a hate-on) I bumped an old thread on CMP vs Waterway to seek some other opinions.
For sure manufacturers will move it around based on cost and performance, especially for components they are out-sourcing anyway.
Marquis also switched to CMP around the same time. Guessing it had to do more with pricing then nything else. In almost 20 years I’ve only seen a couple of jet leaks.
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Rarely do I ever hear or see jet leaks. Can't imagine that it would make a difference between Waterway and CMP. I would assume that it is either error when installing the jet fittings or was an issue with a shell mold that didn't allow the jet body to seat properly. Either way, I could care less between the two jet manufacturers as I can't recall an issue with either or.
Exactly, its not hating when you are experienced enough to be able to read between the lines.
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I'd think the HTU guy would be updating his video information too if for nothing else, but to maintain some level of credibility or positive perception. I haven't looked him up in a few months now but as with these jets, he's still shown to be touting the WW jets as the premier brand then, and saying they lost their place now. It does make sense to me from comments about assembly, how tubs are built and put together / plumbed etc... that the jets themselves are not a big gremlin.
The reason I like forums on most products, topics or interests is the variety of shared experiences by real owners, tech's ,sales or service people. Nothing better than to weed out the occasional misplaced rant, fancy advertising or promises and a wealth of confirmation bias that can develop.
It seems like the quality, brand, marketing and pricing mysteries of hot tubs help make HTU a genuine-sounding hero of inside information.
I really feel my good fortune in getting a free tub is second only to the fantastic miss-out not having to shop, trust or learn as I go when I'd have been considering a sizable expense on such a contraption. At the time and with little knowledge, I'd guess we might have been looking in the $7000 to $8000 range. Certainly not the luxury tier as I'm finding out anyways. ::)
*I know not everyone agrees on everything but I thank all who are willing to share some thoughts, opinions or experience's for the newer tubbers. 8)
The most exciting things that happened to me Friday was finding my secondary car keyfob (temporarily lost) and testing the water in the tub to see all parameters hit the mark. Not quite 3 weeks since filling and starting chemistry, I might have nearly double dosed with the bromine floater and some leftover in the frog but I then read bromine takes a while to get the level in there.
Now for a week or so, I took the floater out and it's right on the money.
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For greater certainty I don't blindly rely on HTU, which is why I bumped that old thread about the jets. I was testing his assertions.
What continues to bewilder me though is how people jump all over him, calling him a shill, questioning his motives and generally dissing him (and Master).
The tipping point for me in trusting him is that he speaks highly of and even recommends brands he doesn't sell. Go ahead and respond by saying that it is "all part of the plan" if you want. But to me, his willingness to endorse other brands is a big plus in this murky world of mysterious pricing and where the consumer has to place manufacturer/dealer integrity much higher on the radar than in other markets.
He plainly states on his web site that the culture of this market is what inspired him to start HTU. In my view, rather than trashing him, which is the easy thing to do, the industry should take a long look in the mirror and do the tougher thing, which is to change its shady practices.
All of this being said, I acknowledge my lack of experience. And to some degree I admit that I'm stirring the pot to provoke discussion. What I really look forward to is getting into a few other brands of hot tubs to compare performance. That will take some time for sure. Once that's done I will be in a much stronger position to judge.
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For greater certainty I don't blindly rely on HTU, which is why I bumped that old thread about the jets. I was testing his assertions.
What continues to bewilder me though is how people jump all over him, calling him a shill, questioning his motives and generally dissing him (and Master).
The tipping point for me in trusting him is that he speaks highly of and even recommends brands he doesn't sell. Go ahead and respond by saying that it is "all part of the plan" if you want. But to me, his willingness to endorse other brands is a big plus in this murky world of mysterious pricing and where the consumer has to place manufacturer/dealer integrity much higher on the radar than in other markets.
He plainly states on his web site that the culture of this market is what inspired him to start HTU. In my view, rather than trashing him, which is the easy thing to do, the industry should take a long look in the mirror and do the tougher thing, which is to change its shady practices.
All of this being said, I acknowledge my lack of experience. And to some degree I admit that I'm stirring the pot to provoke discussion. What I really look forward to is getting into a few other brands of hot tubs to compare performance. That will take some time for sure. Once that's done I will be in a much stronger position to judge.
My biggest issue with him is he thinks he knows everything about hot tubs. On the other brands he recommends (take Marquis for instance because I know and sell them) he is very inaccurate with a lot of his facts about them. I haven’t been on his site in awhile but if you look at his recommendations 90% of the time it’s Master unless Master isn’t available. Most of what he is saying he probably believes to be true but unless you work with a particular brand day in and day out you aren’t going to really know that brand.
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If they did reduce their leaks by 70% 1) they REALLY had/have a quality control issue in the first place, 2) Its not about the parts but more about the process. The jet itself isn't the issue as much as is the gasket/silicone process, how you install/torque them down, how you plumb them and certainly how you prep the fiberglass... I call BS on claiming they solved their issue with more expensive jets but then again that entire HTU is a big Marketing ploy.
LOL even if he had a way to track this (which he absolutely doesn't) It still wouldn't be believable...his vids are good for a few laughs I will say that
100% agree. I rarely see leaks from the jets, but even when you do it typically has nothing to do with the jet itself. It's the manufacturing process more than anything. HTU guy is a good salesman and sounds super knowledgeable to a consumer but a lot of what he says is total b.s. and spin to sell master spas.
Lol, I flippin' knew that the haters would come out. That's why I didn't mention Master here lol:
https://www.whatsthebest-hottub.com/forum/index.php/topic,17903.0.html
Not a hater at all, just being realistic and honest....At the end of the day I could care less about Master Spas, their 'Flash on Trash' junk they build is of no concern to me or my bottom line. If you want someone worried about Master you'll have a to find a Cal Spa dealer, that's the junk that competes well with Master Spas lol....
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My biggest issue with him is he thinks he knows everything about hot tubs. On the other brands he recommends (take Marquis for instance because I know and sell them) he is very inaccurate with a lot of his facts about them. I haven’t been on his site in awhile but if you look at his recommendations 90% of the time it’s Master unless Master isn’t available. Most of what he is saying he probably believes to be true but unless you work with a particular brand day in and day out you aren’t going to really know that brand.
Can you be more specific about the facts he has wrong?
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My biggest issue with him is he thinks he knows everything about hot tubs. On the other brands he recommends (take Marquis for instance because I know and sell them) he is very inaccurate with a lot of his facts about them. I haven’t been on his site in awhile but if you look at his recommendations 90% of the time it’s Master unless Master isn’t available. Most of what he is saying he probably believes to be true but unless you work with a particular brand day in and day out you aren’t going to really know that brand.
I have a few written at my office but the one that I remember exact was he was telling people that Microsilk is a expensive chemical system and you are better off using Spa Marvel. Fact is Microsilk has nothing to do with chemicals and 10 minutes of time on there website and he could’ve figured that out for himself. He is definitely educated on Master but not so much on anything else.
Can you be more specific about the facts he has wrong?
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At the end of the day I could care less about Master Spas, their 'Flash on Trash' junk they build is of no concern to me or my bottom line. If you want someone worried about Master you'll have a to find a Cal Spa dealer, that's the junk that competes well with Master Spas lol....
Haha "'Flash on trash' junk"? That sure sounds like a lot of dislike, if not hate, to me.
I would like to try a Bullfrog spa. They look like silly to me. Hopefully they perform well.
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I have a few written at my office but the one that I remember exact was he was telling people that Microsilk is a expensive chemical system and you are better off using Spa Marvel. Fact is Microsilk has nothing to do with chemicals and 10 minutes of time on there website and he could’ve figured that out for himself.
I have read his site thoroughly and that is not correct. He knows what Microsilk is and he has responded to several questions from consumers. He says it's a gimmicky overpriced option.
Incidentally I checked out a tub with Microsilk when I wet tested at a Marquis dealer. I really liked the performance of the Vector I was in but I was shocked when told the price of the Microsilk option. No way was I paying that much for that. I bet a lot of husbands get ordered by their wives to buy it though! That option is uber-obviously targeting the ladies.
I would be interested in hearing the other facts that you think he has wrong.
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Unless he has changed his turn over the last few months that is exactly what he said.
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I’m not going through 4-5 years of posts. Two of my customers have showed me the post in his hot tub buyers guide comment section. Another thing he says is to avoid E-series because of parts lists but endorsed the signature series. Newsflash to him the equipment other then the topside is exactly the same. I could care less that you bought a Master Spa, could careless that you think this guy is a god of hot tubs but all he is a Master Spa saleman who sells hot tubs out of his garage. He is a great marketer for Master Spas that’s for sure.
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He is a Master Spa salesman (typical spa salesman) that bashes pretty much all other brands. End of story. It is what it is. You can choose to believe him, but I see through his crap.
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Just saying... this was posted by Chris Wheatley 19 days ago on his "Buyers Assistance" side... This should immediately discredit everything this guy says. He must be smoking something if he thinks Cal is a better spa than Sundance:
I would say the Cal spa over Sundance for sure but make sure you order the full foam package if you are in a cold climate, don’t buy the bulls*^#(* about these reflective foils this s&#^$t was pretty much banned in the northern US states in the 80’s and now its the miracle insulator in the totally unregulated hot tub industry…
Also, double check the control and heating system is Balboa, I was at their factory in January and they were using waterways on their entry level stuff and Balboa only on their higher ends…
Sundance was bought by a big equity investment corp that also owns jacuzzi, Hydropool, D1, and endless pool. Typically this kind of organization specializes in the spin, brand awareness, marketing etc and uses lots of proprietary parts and frankly build overpriced mid-grade products with amazingly good packaging 🙂
Sundance hasn't changed ownership since 2002. They recently bought Hydropool, but never Endless Pool. Endless was bought by Watkins Wellness.
You'll notice that all of his claims are OPINIONS. They are never based off fact. He is really convincing in his videos though. He is absolutely an idiot if he thinks that Cal makes a quality spa and Sundance does not. Yikes
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I’m not going through 4-5 years of posts. Two of my customers have showed me the post in his hot tub buyers guide comment section. Another thing he says is to avoid E-series because of parts lists but endorsed the signature series. Newsflash to him the equipment other then the topside is exactly the same. I could care less that you bought a Master Spa, could careless that you think this guy is a god of hot tubs but all he is a Master Spa saleman who sells hot tubs out of his garage. He is a great marketer for Master Spas that’s for sure.
You say that he is inaccurate with the facts but when asked to back it up you can't, or won't. It took me less than 10 minutes to find a direct quote contradicting what you say about him. And then what? You get dismissive ("I’m not going through 4-5 years of posts") and continue to trash talk him ("... all he is a Master Spa salesman who sells hot tubs out of his garage").
As a newbie to this industry, I was drawn to his site because he fills a void in the market. That void IMO is a direct result of the shady practices that I mentioned in other posts. People trust him because they feel the rest of the market can't be trusted. And there a lot of people who agree with me on that. Just look at the posts in the buyers assistance page of his site. The page is crammed with people thanking him for what he does. If he is pulling the wool over our eyes, than he has the industry to thank for creating the void that he is filling.
I agree with you that he is a great marketer for Master, but I sure as heck don't think he is the God of hot tubs (show me where I said that lol). As I've said over and over in my short time here, my interest is in really understanding the hate-on for Master, and by extension, HTU. They are detested for reasons that the end user doesn't care about. Nothing I've read has changed my thinking.
I understand that you could care less that I bought a Master. I was under no illusions that he is biased and I did my own research beyond HTU in arriving at my decision. In a perfect world I would have wet-tested every major brand, but I simply didn't have the time to do that, just like you apparently don't have the time to back up your claims about what he says.
What I want most out of my tub is the hydrotherapy benefits. I think I picked a high performance tub that meets my needs. Time will tell.
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One of my big pet peeves is when people in the same industry trash their competitors. Trashing the competition redirects the focus from why someone is good at what they do to why the other guy sucks. It's low class and cheap.
One industry where it's really bad is residential contracting. I had my kitchen gutted and renovated about four years ago and it cost me $65K. I think most people will agree that it's not hard to spend $65K on a kitchen, but so much of the time when I talked to contractors the knee jerk reaction was to tell me how badly I got ripped off. It got to the point where I just stopped telling people about it.
Just sayin.
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One of my big pet peeves is when people in the same industry trash their competitors. Trashing the competition redirects the focus from why someone is good at what they do to why the other guy sucks. It's low class and cheap.
One industry where it's really bad is residential contracting. I had my kitchen gutted and renovated about four years ago and it cost me $65K. I think most people will agree that it's not hard to spend $65K on a kitchen, but so much of the time when I talked to contractors the knee jerk reaction was to tell me how badly I got ripped off. It got to the point where I just stopped telling people about it.
Just sayin.
Respect is earned, not given. In my opinion, Master Spas hasn’t done anything to gain or earn anyone’s respect within the industry.
If you did your research and arrived at the conclusion that a Master Spa was best for your needs, that’s fine and respectable and I really hope you have years of trouble free enjoyment. It just seems to me that you are continually trying to defend your decision, which you don’t have to.
Most everyone here has one objective and only one objective: to help those that need help. We have no direct benefit by providing information and educated opinions.
And for the record, there are worse products (Cal Spas) than a Master Spa and they don’t get near the negativity.
When I am researching products I want to buy, I know to take every opinion with a grain of salt. I value the opinion most by those who own the product and provide valuable feedback. So, go enjoy your hot tub and report back in 6-12 months and let us know about your ownership experience, whether good or bad.
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I'm not trying to defend my decision. I'm trying to understand a dynamic.
Agreed though on the 6-12 month bit.
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These fights are almost as good as the old Spa Specialist ones. What ever happened to the Super Custom Fallsapart?
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Swilly, like your kitchen you need to give it up.
Here is how it works. I wanted to buy a hot tub. I went to all of the local dealers and got the brochures/pricing. I went to the internet and I agree with you, it is hard to find any unbiased reviews and pricing. I watched all of Hot Tub U videos witch were helpful.
I owned a Master Spa for 8 years and it was great. (replaced heater and Ozoneator) Sold it with house.
My price range was around $6k-$10k. One of my local dealer has a nice used Jacuzzi for $4k, but 1 year warranty. In my price range I knew I wanted the best spa, after wet testing. with a 5 year warranty.
Then, I found this forum and found it to be useful. With the help of Casletona (500 posts), Hottubguy (1653 posts), Hottubdan (2296 posts) and Sam (1014 posts), I drilled down on what would be the best deal. I was down to 3 spas. Hot Springs Flair, South Seas 748 and Caldera Makena.
I now have a Caldera Makena on my back patio and we are loving it and many thanks to the industry professionals who gave me advice on this forum. My electrician worked for Watkins for 20 years and said "great price on the Makena, it will last you 20 years".
So, in summary, some people buy Lexus or Toyota or Kia, but it is up to the hot tub buyer to buy the one that fits your needs at the correct price.
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Swilly, like your kitchen you need to give it up.
Here is how it works. I wanted to buy a hot tub. I went to all of the local dealers and got the brochures/pricing. I went to the internet and I agree with you, it is hard to find any unbiased reviews and pricing. I watched all of Hot Tub U videos witch were helpful.
I owned a Master Spa for 8 years and it was great. (replaced heater and Ozoneator) Sold it with house.
My price range was around $6k-$10k. One of my local dealer has a nice used Jacuzzi for $4k, but 1 year warranty. In my price range I knew I wanted the best spa, after wet testing. with a 5 year warranty.
Then, I found this forum and found it to be useful. With the help of Casletona (500 posts), Hottubguy (1653 posts), Hottubdan (2296 posts) and Sam (1014 posts), I drilled down on what would be the best deal. I was down to 3 spas. Hot Springs Flair, South Seas 748 and Caldera Makena.
I now have a Caldera Makena on my back patio and we are loving it and many thanks to the industry professionals who gave me advice on this forum. My electrician worked for Watkins for 20 years and said "great price on the Makena, it will last you 20 years".
So, in summary, some people buy Lexus or Toyota or Kia, but it is up to the hot tub buyer to buy the one that fits your needs at the correct price.
^ I'll re-post because this makes a lot of sense to me.
Roe Had a Master spa that was great and used worthwhile resources and members here to search for the next tub fitting personal criteria since it's never "One size fits all" in most things for any of us.
The Shopping Expert-
I've always felt having sales experience helped/s me in most shopping or research or buying experiences but truth is, being a consumer who has bought many things over the last nearly half century is more likely the real wisdom. We are are all that person- One who works for our money, food, housing / staples and toys or luxury items and we have an awful lot of shopping and buying experiences that make us better at what we do ... sometimes realizing research and slowing it down a bit before making a decision is best.
Sales people (some)-
Not only is the salesperson who knows-it-all, talks down to people or ridicules other brands a big turn-off, it surprises me to no end these folks can actually stay in the business or have any success at all. In some cases, the smart thing to do is go shop and research those other brands he/she trashed. They must be a significant force in competition to get that form of free advertising and who wouldn't be offended by the salesperson mocking their potential customer by making them feel an idiot for considering "that crappy brand, pile of junk" or whatever their colorful description. This is the time to run out the door if not thank that knucklehead for being soooo transparent. ;D
Tone it down some (maybe?)-
The more I read here, the more I feel HTU and his seemingly one-sided love affair hurts Master more than it helps. His vids and articles obviously cause a lot of focus on looking for things he gets wrong, misstates or testifies as fact when it's more of an opinion.
Yes, he did mention a few other brands by name and he'd do well (IMO) to turn it down a notch and bring a few brands into the spotlight with a little more on their common traits and why they are the premier brands to consider. He might stand a chance of sounding less shill and bring more credibility to the to the table. I believe on some level, his heart is in the business and he believes a lot of what he says but he's got himself into a corner as all or nothing on one brand.
I'd appreciate his efforts more if he made a list every year or two showing the top picks (and why) for three to 5 pricing categories. Maybe 3 or 4 choices in the given price ranges. I'm a firm believer that no One company rules across the board in every model or price range as the A Number One Pick.
Skis, bikes, hot tubs, lap tops or cars,,, pick a budget range and solid research will lead you to a number of brand names and models to pick from. I've shopped and researched things I'll never buy just to test theories, practice shopping or see how ratings stack up and what sources seem candid and trustworthy.
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I wish I had time to type as much as some of you.
In my opinion Master Spas is mediocre at best. Want facts? I've been doing this for over 30 years. That's the only fact you get. I've seen thousands of tubs and a ton of them Master. Take it or leave it, I don't care.
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Thanks for that declaration Tman.
I guess that settles it.
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I wish I had time to type as much as some of you.
In my opinion Master Spas is mediocre at best. Want facts? I've been doing this for over 30 years. That's the only fact you get. I've seen thousands of tubs and a ton of them Master. Take it or leave it, I don't care.
Well said (I typed even less).
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Microsilk is not proprietary. It's made by a multi-billion dollar company (jason) and available in multiple hot tub brands. There's another thing that he's gotten wrong. He gets a lot of things wrong. I've read most of his site and watched most of his videos. I don't recall the details of what he got wrong but I remember there were quite a few either misleading statements or out and out b.s. statements.
Also, all of the industry people here regularly speak well of brands they don't represent or work with. Most people here do a great job of admitting bias and trying to keep it out of their statements. Most industry people here also tend to agree on what's good and what isn't, and everything in between. There's a lot of consensus on most topics. That guy is a shill who sounds super knowledgeable if you aren't experienced in the industry. I totally get why people like his site and believe his claims. He's just not nearly as knowledgeable or unbiased as he claims. Simple fact. Don't believe it if you want, but I promise you it's true. I have far more exposure to other brands than this guy. He's been with master most of his career.
I don't mind being a homer for a product you sell. I'd be reluctant to purchase from you if you weren't. I do though have a problem with claiming to be unbiased when clearly the opposite is true. I also have a problem with stating things as fact and with the utmost authority when a lot of it is spin and some of it is total b.s.
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Microsilk is not proprietary. It's made by a multi-billion dollar company (jason) and available in multiple hot tub brands. There's another thing that he's gotten wrong. He gets a lot of things wrong. I've read most of his site and watched most of his videos. I don't recall the details of what he got wrong but I remember there were quite a few either misleading statements or out and out b.s. statements.
That's not the problem. Even as a newbie, I know what Microsilk is and that Jason owns it. He's been in the industry for decades. It's ludicrous to say that he would get that wrong, notwithstanding what you think about him.
The problem was that it was claimed that he thought Microsilk is an enzyme product, like Spa Marvel, which was not true. He most assuredly knows what Microsilk is, has no confusion about it whatsoever, but he was portrayed as being out of touch on that, which he wasn't. When I brought it to the person's attention that he had it wrong, there was no acknowledgement of the error(!?), only lashing out, and it became a s**t storm.
It's clear that a lot of people here don't like him, think he's a shill, biased, lacks knowledge, even a liar. Have at it on him all you want, I don't care. But when people casually toss around untruths about him, they become exactly what they are accusing him of being!!! Glass houses people.
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He 100% claimed that. If you look through his threads you will notice he only keeps comments active for 6 months. There is no comments in his buyers guide older then 6 months. I haven’t been on his site in a bit until last night trying to find the thread. I also see he longer like Marquis Spas. I can’t find his video anywhere on his site explaining his reasoning though.
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Today he posted:
"I’m not recommending the marquis anymore I bought one and have to say the quality of build was just not there, it had a leak, a fault and just poor attention to detail and it was a brand now 2018 from the factory! they review is coming out soon."
Five days ago he posted:
"I’m taking these guys off the good guy list, I have a brand new vector 21 here and the build quality was just not great at all, sloppy workmanship, the tub had a leak and 2 faults and the attention to detail was pants…
Ill email you a link but don’t share it it’s not ready for the public yet."
I guess there is a video review coming out.
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He 100% claimed that. If you look through his threads you will notice he only keeps comments active for 6 months. There is no comments in his buyers guide older then 6 months. I haven’t been on his site in a bit until last night trying to find the thread. I also see he longer like Marquis Spas. I can’t find his video anywhere on his site explaining his reasoning though.
[/quote
He claims somewhere in a response to an enquiry they are off of his good list now because of build quality. Read it the other day.
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Did not read the whole thread lol what he said above lol
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Who cares. The world does not revolve around Chris at his Hot Tub University.
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I wish I had time to type as much as some of you.
In my opinion Master Spas is mediocre at best. Want facts? I've been doing this for over 30 years. That's the only fact you get. I've seen thousands of tubs and a ton of them Master. Take it or leave it, I don't care.
Well said (I typed even less).
+
Not a lot of words needed.
Some on forums from around the industry, business or service side garner a lot of respect in my view and I 'file' a lot of those nuggets of wisdom or experience into my learning or making decisions.
I also know not everyone who touts being around the biz for 30 or 40 years is necessarily a straight-shooter with unbiased advice. Some can just plain be wrong about a lot of things, even intentionally misleading. *Just noted a comment about a person who erases their comment history after a few months. Now there's a person who knows they can't stand by their word and probably changes their story every few weeks. Brilliant ! Maybe I've got it wrong though, I didn't investigate further. :)
I do feel most of us have our own 'meter' , radar or tolerance for such people though. If nothing else, they are mostly the reason I DO respect many of you professionals. 👍
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Who cares. The world does not revolve around Chris at his Hot Tub University.
Also, It's so easy to pick apart something when somebody got a bad one out of the box or there was a flaw in a production run if that's even the case. These things go over the road many, many, miles and can be loaded, unloaded many times before getting to the end user or even the store. who knows how well they are handled?
Sure, it makes sense they'd be handled with care but the build quality can't always make up for extraneous factors or exceptions to the norms.
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My Marquis (Epic) was delivered about a month ago. Only minor issue was the conduit in the tub for wiring did not quite line up with the grommet hole. Easy fix had the cover lifter not been installed already. Really not an issue at all, it only became an issue as the cover lifter prevented me from removing the panel that would allow me to adjust it. No leaks or water loss beyond evaporation that I am aware of. A friend also bought the Epic a month before me.. Same goes. Issue free.
Been waiting for Chris' video on Marquis to see what he has to say. Since his post that Marquis is bad he has also told people to go with Marquis..
So much of this is opinion based.. As with car, mechanics have brands they love and hate. Ones they would not be caught dead in and others they cannot be with out. I am sure Hot Tub Techs are much the same. There experience has led them to a particular opinion on certain brands and models.
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My Marquis (Epic) was delivered about a month ago. Only minor issue was the conduit in the tub for wiring did not quite line up with the grommet hole. Easy fix had the cover lifter not been installed already. Really not an issue at all, it only became an issue as the cover lifter prevented me from removing the panel that would allow me to adjust it. No leaks or water loss beyond evaporation that I am aware of. A friend also bought the Epic a month before me.. Same goes. Issue free.
Been waiting for Chris' video on Marquis to see what he has to say. Since his post that Marquis is bad he has also told people to go with Marquis..
So much of this is opinion based.. As with car, mechanics have brands they love and hate. Ones they would not be caught dead in and others they cannot be with out. I am sure Hot Tub Techs are much the same. There experience has led them to a particular opinion on certain brands and models.
You are correct. Nobody is 100% perfect all the time. I have gotten new tubs from different manufacturers that have issues on startup. They are few and far between
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Quite honestly the way I look at it...
When I call for support or drop off my vehicle for warranty repair, this is the opportunity for the manufacturer or dealer to earn there money and earn my loyalty. Or conversely for me to bad mouth and trash talk them. Every manufacturer will have problems off the line. If its a systemic problem you will hear about it... Else its just business and failures happen. Its all how they handle it afterwards.
Before buying Marquis.. As HTU Chris likes to say there is no after market support from Marquis, I picked up the phone and made a call as if I had a tub and had problems. Within a couple minutes I had a support guy on the phone who was quite willing to put me in touch with a local dealer for support.
I also emailed there general inquires line with questions about the tub and how they are different from all the rest. Again within the day I had a call back from the District Sales Manager (or something alone those lines) who quite willing spent 20 minutes on the phone with me answer questions about his tub and many other brands.. All while maintaining a positive attitude and no trash talk.
Chris at HTU.... He seems to really know his stuff. But more so he really seems to know his sales and sales of the brand. There were several points in watching his video's I was left scratching my head. One that comes to mind is his review of the Arctic Brand, using a several year old Arctic swim spa as his example. Kind of like reviewing a Ford that has been traded in as the owner had problems and stating factually that all the problems with the Ford effect the current models being sold several years later.
I like what Chris has done. he educated me into some of the key components to look for and things to avoid. Don't let this fool you however, he is there to sell tubs. I can only believe that he is further getting kick back from Master, if not the Master dealers that he makes referrals to.
Just my 2 cents.. For what there worth..
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half the buyers in North America come to me for advice before they buy a hot tub and my recommendation will affect where nearly a billion US dollars go this season
Really Chris?
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half the buyers in North America come to me for advice before they buy a hot tub and my recommendation will affect where nearly a billion US dollars go this season
Really Chris?
That's pretty rich all right. Kinda hard to defend that one.
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If he searches hits on his name, he'll soon see the mentions on forums and just might get the ego conditioning needed.... lol.
As with my 13 year old hand-me-down hot tub... it seems solid, looks great and aside from the new heater, may not have had any "bigger ticket" service needs or history. ($130 part and my 20 minutes time)
I got a few papers with it so I presume the owner tracked things pretty well including hand written notes in the o manual.
I had a few questions when it first landed and called Marquis once getting some answers and two other occasions emailing them on other things. All contact was addressed immediately and helpful insights offered. I simply got the attention I expect from any company that earns or deserves good marks.
If I were to guess, the only defense HTU might have in sending out a few digs about 'support' in a broad generational would be IF they (Marquis) don't have a huge number of brick n mortar stores/dealers in every major city. Even then, that doesn't define poor service or support in my book.
I read time and time again they have good market share and seem a respected name if not often recommended with a few other tier names to be considered by those "in the know".
Parts and service sound genuinely universal or easy to find so there isn't much for me to lose sleep over.
Seen a negative review on Master tubs on a site the other day and it was mostly a complaint that the electrical hook up costs and maint of the tub chemicals were way more than they were lead to believe. Maybe it was sales person glossing over a few things but I really had to laugh at someone who spends that kind of money doing zero homework or research on it. Too bad any brand takes a hit on a review for something like that.
It made me realize I'd still steer people to HTU for a good overview and just warn them to not take the branding info too much as gospel and at the very least, shop, compare or consider 3 - 5 brands other than CHRISHTUMASTER.
;D
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If your not careful, you'll go from wanting a hot tub to Needing a hot tub !! lol
Been up and running since Oct 28th - loving it !!
Much funnier than I think originally intended, I LOL'd
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half the buyers in North America come to me for advice before they buy a hot tub and my recommendation will affect where nearly a billion US dollars go this season
Really Chris?
I wish he would come here so I can chew him up and spit him out.
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half the buyers in North America come to me for advice before they buy a hot tub and my recommendation will affect where nearly a billion US dollars go this season
Really Chris?
That's pretty rich all right. Kinda hard to defend that one.
Its all indefensible if its an unbiased opinion you're looking for rather than a veiled marketing ploy.
His videos are the equivalent of Ronald Popeil on one of his infomercials telling us about his latest "revolutionary" product (no offense intended to Ron of course)!
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Two takeaways from Chris's website info.
Proprietary controls. Don't buy a spa without Balboa/Gecko controls. From my research, all of the top spa manufactures by volume use proprietary controls including Hot Springs, Caldera, Jacuzzi, Arctic, D-1, Sundance ect. Discounting the worlds best hot tub manufacture's is not sound purchasing advise.
Circulation pump is a waste of money. If you have a Ozone generator, I am sure it will be more effective with one. I was specifically looking for a spa with cir pump and ozonator. (bromine)
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Two takeaways from Chris's website info.
Proprietary controls. Don't buy a spa without Balboa/Gecko controls. From my research, all of the top spa manufactures by volume use proprietary controls including Hot Springs, Caldera, Jacuzzi, Arctic, D-1, Sundance ect. Discounting the worlds best hot tub manufacture's is not sound purchasing advise.
Circulation pump is a waste of money. If you have a Ozone generator, I am sure it will be more effective with one. I was specifically looking for a spa with cir pump and ozonator. (bromine)
There are some good points there. The Hot Spring remote control panel I have has been nothing but a headache for me! Do you know how many times I have got out of the tub and the remote has lost connection with the tub? I have to go to the disconnected and turn the breaker off. This has been going on for 3.5 years and I have zero confidence I'll make it out of warranty. I'm already looking for a replacement tub.
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Two takeaways from Chris's website info.
Proprietary controls. Don't buy a spa without Balboa/Gecko controls. From my research, all of the top spa manufactures by volume use proprietary controls including Hot Springs, Caldera, Jacuzzi, Arctic, D-1, Sundance ect. Discounting the worlds best hot tub manufacture's is not sound purchasing advise.
Circulation pump is a waste of money. If you have a Ozone generator, I am sure it will be more effective with one. I was specifically looking for a spa with cir pump and ozonator. (bromine)
There are some good points there. The Hot Spring remote control panel I have has been nothing but a headache for me! Do you know how many times I have got out of the tub and the remote has lost connection with the tub? I have to go to the disconnected and turn the breaker off. This has been going on for 3.5 years and I have zero confidence I'll make it out of warranty. I'm already looking for a replacement tub.
Generally speaking, Hot Spring has a reputation for building great, reliable spas. When I sold them years ago it was not uncommon to have customers who had 20+ year old spas still rocking. I think the longest was a 31 year old Classic. The old "dog dish" spa that was built like a tank!
Every complicated product will have some issues, but as a direct competitor to Hot Spring I still admire them as a company. They take care of they customers and dealers and make a very nice hot tub.
In my opinion, the whole proprietary parts thing is a silly reason to avoid a brand in and of itself. It allows them to build a system where the components are designed to work together with their intended purpose. The sum is greater than the whole if it's parts. They aren't just picking components off the shelf from different manufacturers and putting them together like a lot of brands. They are designed from the ground up. I would argue this should lead to a better performing product in the right hands with the right resources. And guess what? Watkins is owned by a multi-billion dollar global manufacturer. They probably have the most resources of any spa manufacturer out there.
You may say "but the parts are more expensive". Their pumps are the same price as any other high end spa. Some things may be slightly more expensive but why is that necessarily a bad thing? You don't buy a hot spring because you want a cheap spa. Why would you expect cheap parts? This is yet another thing that I think chris gets wrong. He hates on hot spring but I bet he has little experience with them. Thinking master is better than h.s. is just ludicrous.
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Anti-innovation is awful for the customer. That's what Chris is. Balboa makes great parts, but they are no less expensive than any other proprietary control system.
Also... how often do I actually replace controls/boards? Most of them I would say come from strange situations like lightining strikes. Some die, but it's a relatively rare situation.
My Chevy Silverado has a unique Chevy Mylink infotainment system... but I shouldn't have bought that... primarily because I am beholden to them to replace it IF it breaks... god forbid!
I should have bought an early 2000's honda with no touch screen where the parts are readily available
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Great point on the car comparison.
By the way, I don't come across as antagonistic in this thread. I actually enjoy and appreciate the discussion. It can be difficult to sort through the b.s. in our industry. I also suspect that most of the front-line sales guys know and understand very little about our industry and just regurgitate whatever sales pitch they are taught.
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I also suspect that most of the front-line sales guys know and understand very little about our industry and just regurgitate whatever sales pitch they are taught.
That's exactly one of the points that Chris Wheatley makes on his site. It explains mediocrity, but it doesn't excuse it. The high performers rise above that s**t.
One of my clients sums it up perfectly....she says "Mediocrity is easy. Don't do easy."
If there's any consolation, somebody's got to bring down the average!
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I also suspect that most of the front-line sales guys know and understand very little about our industry and just regurgitate whatever sales pitch they are taught.
That's exactly one of the points that Chris Wheatley makes on his site. It explains mediocrity, but it doesn't excuse it. The high performers rise above that s**t.
One of my clients sums it up perfectly....she says "Mediocrity is easy. Don't do easy."
If there's any consolation, somebody's got to bring down the average!
LOL, his marketing ploy videos are a joke because while he may state some good theory we are then supposed to believe who he determines breaks the "rules" of quality, value, engineering ... and who passes.
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Great point on the car comparison.
By the way, I don't come across as antagonistic in this thread. I actually enjoy and appreciate the discussion. It can be difficult to sort through the b.s. in our industry. I also suspect that most of the front-line sales guys know and understand very little about our industry and just regurgitate whatever sales pitch they are taught.
Just re-read my post and there is a typo that changes my meaning lol. I meant to say that "I don't intend to come across as antagonistic..."
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I also suspect that most of the front-line sales guys know and understand very little about our industry and just regurgitate whatever sales pitch they are taught.
That's exactly one of the points that Chris Wheatley makes on his site. It explains mediocrity, but it doesn't excuse it. The high performers rise above that s**t.
One of my clients sums it up perfectly....she says "Mediocrity is easy. Don't do easy."
If there's any consolation, somebody's got to bring down the average!
LOL, his marketing ploy videos are a joke because while he may state some good theory we are then supposed to believe who he determines breaks the "rules" of quality, value, engineering ... and who passes.
Yeah, makes me think of his presentations as Some truth, Some good ideas and Some hype but then mixing in (sneaking?) his own agenda making it more difficult to separate facts from opinion.
He's just disingenuous in some cases.
As for the proprietary parts versus some bigger name parts, good points on both sides.... if avaialblitiy for some part that might be more frequently used or needed is an issue, it's sure is nice to walk into a store a grab something off the shelf rather than feel held hostage by less timely sourcing. That would really be the only practical concern I'd have.
Yet I'm new to all this and wonder if these talks about parts gets people thinking they might be stuck with specialty jets, nozzles or other parts that have a unique way to fasten to the plumbing line and then end up buying and trying 2, 3 or 4 types to get it right. I've read of an experience or two like that but maybe a teeny bit of research first is all that was needed.
Playing on the fears does seem easy though.
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When a manufacturer passes a certain threshold for number of units sold, there will always be an outlet for their parts (or equivalent part) even if that company closes or something along those lines. Hot spring is well past that threshold.