Hot Tub Forum
Brand Specific Forums => Hot Spring Spas => Topic started by: BigBird on September 27, 2014, 02:10:47 am
-
I'm close to pulling the trigger on a new 2104 HS Vanguard which is listed at $10,800 plus tax and includes steps, cover,lift, breaker panel/GFI and installation. HS is also offering the ACE system free if purchased by 10/29.
I've not yet made an offer and was hoping someone could steer me towards what would be considered a fair deal, or even confirm the current price of $10.8k is reasonable.
Thanks in advance for sharing your expertise.
-
Seems like a fair deal. I recently bought a 2013 Vanguard floor model for $8500. But did nt include ACE. The 2013 jets are a little different (just one Moto DX and one regular Moto) and no real water feature (except a little thing that sounds like the toilet is running). The 2013 pumps are also only single speed while the 2014 has one two-speed pump. However the 2013 has a more powerful heater (6000W vs. 4000W).
See if they'll come down a bit but they probably won't come down much. It helps if you have a quote from a competitor that is a bit lower for a different tub and tell them you're really leaning that way because of price.
Enjoy the tub.
-
Thanks for taking the time to provide some great feedback mpp.......much appreciated.
-
Go wet test and Q&A salesman on an Optima--by Sundance---we switched!--and we were sold on the Vanguard---to the point we had put 50% down--then switched.
-
I'm close to pulling the trigger on a new 2104 HS Vanguard which is listed at $10,800 plus tax and includes steps, cover,lift, breaker panel/GFI and installation. HS is also offering the ACE system free if purchased by 10/29.
I've not yet made an offer and was hoping someone could steer me towards what would be considered a fair deal, or even confirm the current price of $10.8k is reasonable.
Thanks in advance for sharing your expertise.
That is a fair price with all that includes but it doesn't hurt to counter to see if you can do a little better.
-
Go wet test and Q&A salesman on an Optima--by Sundance---we switched!--and we were sold on the Vanguard---to the point we had put 50% down--then switched.
What made you switch from the Vanguard to the Optima? Was it just a price difference or did the Optima seem to offer more for the money?
I'm trying to decide between Hot Springs or Sundance. I've heard that both are reputable products and they stand behind there product.
-
Wet tested the Vanguard today and fell in love with the Moto's. I was able to negotiate an additional $500 to get to a $10.5k plus tax agreement....and the dealer included steps, Covercradle II, service panel, starter chemicals and free delivery. I also received the ACE system free as part of a Hot Springs promotion that ends today. All in all very happy with the deal, and I really enjoyed getting to know my local dealer.
Thanks to my forum friends for the great advice!
Happy Hot a Tubin,
BigBird
-
Congratulations on your new tub! I'm sure you'll love it. I'd also really like to hear how you like your ACE system as time progresses. Maybe consider giving us all some progress reports as time goes on???
-
Congrats and post pictures when you get your new spa/hot tub...
-
f6487
We questioned the Sundance sales guy---"Why should we buy Optima instead of Vanguard (Sundance vs Hot springs)---his answer in part was---1. The wall thickness of the acrylic is thicker--it appeared to be 3/4 to an inch where as HS waqs 3/8th inch. 2. When we tested the units the seats in the S were higher--better for my wifey who is 5"-2" 3. there is a foot docking station in the floor of the S which goes a long way in keeping you seated and not buoyant as well as a foot massage 4. The cost was comparable-------5. The S has a titanium heater---a cut above Stainless steel. 6 Sundance had an Eco wrap option that reduced the heating bill by 20 to 25% (purportedly) 7. Ther UV light was a nice enticement too altho replacing the bulb will be interesting. 8. The punmp swize on the Sundance is larger than on the HS-------------------The negatives on HS were--with a salt water chemical system does that salt water contribute to failure of the Stainless Steel heater?--After all salt and metal are not friendly to one another and the heater going out is not good and HS does not have a Titanium heater----We loved the moto massage but also thought that there were more moving parts that could potentially break down.----in the end for a Sundance Optima for $9,995.00---with lift, steps, delivery and start up--that is what we decided on.
-
DaveMC,
Thanks for breaking down why you switched from the HS Vanguard to the Sundance Optima. Appreciate the information. Very helpful in my decision making process. The Vanguard was never one of HS tubs I was considering because it's in the Highlife collection and it's a little out of my price range. It also looks like the Optima is probably out of my price range at $10k.
I'm currently looking at the Flair spa which is part of HS Limelight collection. But I see that Sundance has quite a few different collections also. I'm going to look at all the Sundance models and see which one fits my needs and works with my budget of $7500 - $8000. Then I'll do my side by side comparisons of the two models and cost comparisons to see which one I'm leaning towards. It will probably come down to which salesman is willing to make the best deal. Even if that means sacrificing a few bells & whistles. Thanks..
-
f6487
We questioned the Sundance sales guy---"Why should we buy Optima instead of Vanguard (Sundance vs Hot springs)---his answer in part was---1. The wall thickness of the acrylic is thicker--it appeared to be 3/4 to an inch where as HS waqs 3/8th inch. 2. When we tested the units the seats in the S were higher--better for my wifey who is 5"-2" 3. there is a foot docking station in the floor of the S which goes a long way in keeping you seated and not buoyant as well as a foot massage 4. The cost was comparable-------5. The S has a titanium heater---a cut above Stainless steel. 6 Sundance had an Eco wrap option that reduced the heating bill by 20 to 25% (purportedly) 7. Ther UV light was a nice enticement too altho replacing the bulb will be interesting. 8. The punmp swize on the Sundance is larger than on the HS-------------------The negatives on HS were--with a salt water chemical system does that salt water contribute to failure of the Stainless Steel heater?--After all salt and metal are not friendly to one another and the heater going out is not good and HS does not have a Titanium heater----We loved the moto massage but also thought that there were more moving parts that could potentially break down.----in the end for a Sundance Optima for $9,995.00---with lift, steps, delivery and start up--that is what we decided on.
Sounds like the sundance guy was just a better salesman. You did get a real good deal on the tub though. I can't believe some of the prices I see on here
-
DaveMC,
Thanks for breaking down why you switched from the HS Vanguard to the Sundance Optima. Appreciate the information. Very helpful in my decision making process. The Vanguard was never one of HS tubs I was considering because it's in the Highlife collection and it's a little out of my price range. It also looks like the Optima is probably out of my price range at $10k.
I'm currently looking at the Flair spa which is part of HS Limelight collection. But I see that Sundance has quite a few different collections also. I'm going to look at all the Sundance models and see which one fits my needs and works with my budget of $7500 - $8000. Then I'll do my side by side comparisons of the two models and cost comparisons to see which one I'm leaning towards. It will probably come down to which salesman is willing to make the best deal. Even if that means sacrificing a few bells & whistles. Thanks..
The Sundance only has a titanium coil heater on their 880 Series. Hotspring has had a titanium heater for at least 8 years, and it is used on both the Highlife and Limelight series. And the Fibercore insulation on the Limelight has a density about four times greater than the 1/2 lb foam on the Sundance. I've sold and serviced both brands over a 20 year period. Each brand has its strong points, which are easier to discover on the respective websites rather than from a sales person's bent.
-
DaveMC,
Thanks for breaking down why you switched from the HS Vanguard to the Sundance Optima. Appreciate the information. Very helpful in my decision making process. The Vanguard was never one of HS tubs I was considering because it's in the Highlife collection and it's a little out of my price range. It also looks like the Optima is probably out of my price range at $10k.
I'm currently looking at the Flair spa which is part of HS Limelight collection. But I see that Sundance has quite a few different collections also. I'm going to look at all the Sundance models and see which one fits my needs and works with my budget of $7500 - $8000. Then I'll do my side by side comparisons of the two models and cost comparisons to see which one I'm leaning towards. It will probably come down to which salesman is willing to make the best deal. Even if that means sacrificing a few bells & whistles. Thanks..
The Sundance only has a titanium coil heater on their 880 Series. Hotspring has had a titanium heater for at least 8 years, and it is used on both the Highlife and Limelight series. And the Fibercore insulation on the Limelight has a density about four times greater than the 1/2 lb foam on the Sundance. I've sold and serviced both brands over a 20 year period. Each brand has its strong points, which are easier to discover on the respective websites rather than from a sales person's bent.
I almost responded to some of those items including the misinformation on the heater, the fact that the added insulation might make it close to equal to the Hot Spring, I think the pump HP is pretty much identical... but at that point I figured why bother. It was definitely good salesmanship by someone but Sundance is a good option as well and hopefully the spa will treat the new owner well for many years to come.
-
Quickbeam- I'll be glad to provide updates on the ACE system along the way. Much like a few other comments from the forum, my HS dealer didn't push the system on me, and they were more than happy to provide me with several customer contacts willing to share their experience after my barrage of questions. One customer in particular had a poor experience with the ACE but admitted he assumed the system was foolproof and therefore neglected to test his water over an extended period of time.....hence the problems encountered.
I really enjoy the varying degree of opinions on this forum, regardless whether I agree or not. In my case premium spa dealer choices are somewhat limited in my area, so the dealer relationship was an important factor.....not to mention I really dig the Vanguard.
One thing for sure, no matter what spa folks settle on..........we all love hot water.
Happy Hot Tubbin,
BigBird
-
Thanks Big Bird. Will look forward to your feedback. And for what it’s worth, I think you were wise to make sure you had a good dealer. I really do believe that’s a very important part of the decision making process in buying a spa.
-
Hot Spring Ace-----"I almost responded to some of those items including the misinformation on the heater, the fact that the added insulation might make it close to equal to the Hot Spring, I think the pump HP is pretty much identical... but at that point I figured why bother. It was definitely good salesmanship by someone but Sundance is a good option as well and hopefully the spa will treat the new owner well for many years to come."
1. Can you clarify "misinformation" on the heater---it is my understanding that the Vanguard does NOT have a titanium heater option--it only comes with Stainless steel?
2. You think that a 2.0 pump and a 2.5 pump are "pretty much the same?--Not that one has 25% more power?
3. "Eco Wrap" is not trying to catch up to HS it is passing it in economy.--just a thought
Of course you are the expert but it seems to me that a superior fact is not "a better salesman"---it is a better product--let's separate facts from opinions here--that is what the readers are looking for---not opinions---or spin.----just a thought.
-
Hot Spring Ace-----"I almost responded to some of those items including the misinformation on the heater, the fact that the added insulation might make it close to equal to the Hot Spring, I think the pump HP is pretty much identical... but at that point I figured why bother. It was definitely good salesmanship by someone but Sundance is a good option as well and hopefully the spa will treat the new owner well for many years to come."
1. Can you clarify "misinformation" on the heater---it is my understanding that the Vanguard does NOT have a titanium heater option--it only comes with Stainless steel?
The Vanguard heater IS titanium and has been for years now
2. You think that a 2.0 pump and a 2.5 pump are "pretty much the same?--Not that one has 25% more power?
pump size means absolutely nothing...jet to pump ratio, type(s) of jets ie what type of volume and how the spa itself is plumbed...in other words wet test, wet test, wet test
3. "Eco Wrap" is not trying to catch up to HS it is passing it in economy.--just a thought
Of course you are the expert but it seems to me that a superior fact is not "a better salesman"---it is a better product--let's separate facts from opinions here--that is what the readers are looking for---not opinions---or spin.----just a thought.
Meh, I've been selling Hot Spring in Minnesota for years...we also use wireless appliance meters to monitor power, even during the coldest months in MN a Hot Spring doesn't exceed $30 per month (we pay between 7-10cents per kw/h here typically) under a $1 per day in an extremely cold environment is good enough for me
-
Hot Spring Ace-----"I almost responded to some of those items including the misinformation on the heater, the fact that the added insulation might make it close to equal to the Hot Spring, I think the pump HP is pretty much identical... but at that point I figured why bother. It was definitely good salesmanship by someone but Sundance is a good option as well and hopefully the spa will treat the new owner well for many years to come."
1. Can you clarify "misinformation" on the heater---it is my understanding that the Vanguard does NOT have a titanium heater option--it only comes with Stainless steel?
The Vanguard heater IS titanium and has been for years now
2. You think that a 2.0 pump and a 2.5 pump are "pretty much the same?--Not that one has 25% more power?
pump size means absolutely nothing...jet to pump ratio, type(s) of jets ie what type of volume and how the spa itself is plumbed...in other words wet test, wet test, wet test
3. "Eco Wrap" is not trying to catch up to HS it is passing it in economy.--just a thought
Of course you are the expert but it seems to me that a superior fact is not "a better salesman"---it is a better product--let's separate facts from opinions here--that is what the readers are looking for---not opinions---or spin.----just a thought.
Meh, I've been selling Hot Spring in Minnesota for years...we also use wireless appliance meters to monitor power, even during the coldest months in MN a Hot Spring doesn't exceed $30 per month (we pay between 7-10cents per kw/h here typically) under a $1 per day in an extremely cold environment is good enough for me
I'll add to #3 to give more specifics since that was asked for. Most spas that are foam filled use a 1/2 lb insulation and simply fill the cavity with it. Hot Spring uses a dense foam on the shell, on all sides and on the bottom and then fills the inner cavity with the lower density 1/2 lb foam. That layering is largely responsible for the increased energy efficiency and why a spa with just 1/2 lb foam will never insulate as well.
-
I'll take your word for #1---I did not substantiate--so according to you--Vanguard has a Titanium heater--fine
#2 Pump size in your mind means nothing---that is just in your mind--bigger is bigger---other factor of course influence th overall effect but pump size DOES mean something---
#3 What's good enough for you---does not set the criteria for a sound decision--your points in this answer are all irrelevant to the point--the point being that more efficient insulation is ---well --- more efficient and it ='s lower cost-- So if Eco Wrap cuts the bill 25%--then it cuts the bill--if your energy is cheap and you don't care--or it is good enough---good for you--but for an apples to apples comparison---"good enough" is not an answer
California btw pays about 0.31 per kw---not 0.07
-
Hot Springs Ace
Thanks for your input--I would welcome a non partisan test of energy efficiency--it seems though that the average buyer is left with "company opinions" instead of a test comparison--say fill competing tubs with 104 Degree water and tell us which one cools faster---what is the cooling rate for each. Don't you think this would tell the truth better than a description of product and method of install for each?
-
I'll take your word for #1---I did not substantiate--so according to you--Vanguard has a Titanium heater--fine
#2 Pump size in your mind means nothing---that is just in your mind--bigger is bigger---other factor of course influence th overall effect but pump size DOES mean something---
#3 What's good enough for you---does not set the criteria for a sound decision--your points in this answer are all irrelevant to the point--the point being that more efficient insulation is ---well --- more efficient and it ='s lower cost-- So if Eco Wrap cuts the bill 25%--then it cuts the bill--if your energy is cheap and you don't care--or it is good enough---good for you--but for an apples to apples comparison---"good enough" is not an answer
California btw pays about 0.31 per kw---not 0.07
Certainly go for the ECO wrap if it improves the Sundance spa's energy efficiency by 25%, heck even if its only 10% (depending on the up charge of course).
-
I'll take your word for #1---I did not substantiate--so according to you--Vanguard has a Titanium heater--fine
#2 Pump size in your mind means nothing---that is just in your mind--bigger is bigger---other factor of course influence th overall effect but pump size DOES mean something---
#3 What's good enough for you---does not set the criteria for a sound decision--your points in this answer are all irrelevant to the point--the point being that more efficient insulation is ---well --- more efficient and it ='s lower cost-- So if Eco Wrap cuts the bill 25%--then it cuts the bill--if your energy is cheap and you don't care--or it is good enough---good for you--but for an apples to apples comparison---"good enough" is not an answer
California btw pays about 0.31 per kw---not 0.07
sounds like you have the whole industry figured out...good luck on your purchase
-
I'll add to #3 to give more specifics since that was asked for. Most spas that are foam filled use a 1/2 lb insulation and simply fill the cavity with it. Hot Spring uses a dense foam on the shell, on all sides and on the bottom and then fills the inner cavity with the lower density 1/2 lb foam. That layering is largely responsible for the increased energy efficiency and why a spa with just 1/2 lb foam will never insulate as well.
ALL the independent information I can find has always said polyurethane foam has an R-value of R-5 to R-6, per inch, regardless of density. You seem to be saying that a much higher density has a much higher R-value. Can you refer me to any independent information I might have missed? (My understanding has always been that the high density foam on the shell is to add to the structural support of the shell, and the bottom layer for durability under the spa [1/2 pound density wouldn't fair well during transportation].)
-
I'll add to #3 to give more specifics since that was asked for. Most spas that are foam filled use a 1/2 lb insulation and simply fill the cavity with it. Hot Spring uses a dense foam on the shell, on all sides and on the bottom and then fills the inner cavity with the lower density 1/2 lb foam. That layering is largely responsible for the increased energy efficiency and why a spa with just 1/2 lb foam will never insulate as well.
ALL the independent information I can find has always said polyurethane foam has an R-value of R-5 to R-6, per inch, regardless of density. You seem to be saying that a much higher density has a much higher R-value. Can you refer me to any independent information I might have missed? (My understanding has always been that the high density foam on the shell is to add to the structural support of the shell, and the bottom layer for durability under the spa [1/2 pound density wouldn't fair well during transportation].)
No one has independent information, we all know that. It would be great if that came out at some time.
-
I'll add to #3 to give more specifics since that was asked for. Most spas that are foam filled use a 1/2 lb insulation and simply fill the cavity with it. Hot Spring uses a dense foam on the shell, on all sides and on the bottom and then fills the inner cavity with the lower density 1/2 lb foam. That layering is largely responsible for the increased energy efficiency and why a spa with just 1/2 lb foam will never insulate as well.
ALL the independent information I can find has always said polyurethane foam has an R-value of R-5 to R-6, per inch, regardless of density. You seem to be saying that a much higher density has a much higher R-value. Can you refer me to any independent information I might have missed? (My understanding has always been that the high density foam on the shell is to add to the structural support of the shell, and the bottom layer for durability under the spa [1/2 pound density wouldn't fair well during transportation].)
No one has independent information, we all know that. It would be great if that came out at some time.
Maybe it will here :o
FWIW to any other interested learners here Sundance and Jacuzzi both use a higher density foam sprayed on the shell, as well as the foam that is blown/sprayed in. That being said it really has nothing to do with stabilizing the shell in those brands.
-
EVERY resource I can find lists polyurethane foam with an R-value of R-5 to R-6. Almost NO WHERE does anyone really talk about relationship of foam density. There was, or still is one site (I can't find where it is), that's a consumer info site, written by the engineer of a spa manufacturer (the site is written anonymously and has no relationship with the manufacturer, where due to illness he's no longer with), that as I recall, pretty much said, emphatically, polyurethane foam had an R-value of R-6 to R-7, depending on density, HOWEVER, as the density increased to over "some" amount, the R value starts to decline. I would be willing to "bet the farm" that #30 polyurethane foam has FAR less insulation value that #1 polyurethane foam insulation. (remember, it's the pockets of air retained in the polyurethane foam that insulates, NOT the polyurethane foam itself).
So ok, I'll even take biased info. Point me anywhere that states the difference in R value depending on polyurethane foam's density.
-
OK--I have a suggestion--I will start a new thread---"User Energy efficiency Test"----and we will set the criteria for a test of loss of temperature over time---OK?
-
This would be AWESOME! Who's going to buy two of the EXACT same spas, one being full foamed, and one being not, and put them in a climate and wind controlled room, to test? I'd be willing to contribute $50.
-
OK--we only need 399 more contributers---did you want a bank # to contribute to?
-
Get 399 more commitments, and we'll talk.
-
:D Good thread!
I will just add that HP ratings are total BS. You have a HP rating for the motor operating without a pump on it. Then you have the motor but put on larger impeller and report it as the larger number. And as stated, none of this takes into account the amount of plumbing, type of jets, is there a diverter valve? Diverter valves rob up to 18% of the power (I have read). Every inch of plumbing, every 90 degree elbow, etc, reduce pressure by friction.
As said above, don't even look at what the manufacturer says the HP is. Feel the pressure from the jets. Does it feel strong enough? Great, who cares what HP someone says it is.