Hot Tub Forum
Brand Specific Forums => Hot Spring Spas => Topic started by: NZArtist on July 31, 2014, 12:34:34 am
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What a disaster...
In February of 2013 I purchased a Hotspring Grandee spa. I decided on Hotspring because they're supposed to be high quality (ha!). I decided on the Grandee because friends like to visit. And I decided on the Ace saltwater chlorination system because the sales-person convinced me it would take my maintenance time down. In New Zealand this is $25,950 worth of spa (USD$22,000)
On a positive note... The spa was delivered on time, and the man with the Hiab truck who had to hoist the spa over the roof of the house was magnificent. He placed it in exactly the right spot.
We filled and balanced the spa. And then I discovered the first problem. A 1200W heater is *way* under powered for this behemoth. It took two days to get to temperature. Seriously, the kettle in my kitchen is 2200 Watts - almost twice as powerful as this spa. If you have a spa in winter you'll be shivering in the water after an hour. Sooner with more people or if you run the jets.
A few days after the spa was installed we had a wind storm, and I discovered the next problem with this spa. The latches on the cover straps are useless, and the cover straps are very weak and can tear easily. At 3:00am in the wind and rain I had to strap the spa cover down with nylon webbing ratchet tie-downs because it had unlatched from two corners, and torn off the other two straps when the cover lifter slid the cover back. I've since replaced those crappy straps with nylon webbing straps, and better latches.
The next problem is the Ace salt water cells. I've had *two* fail in 18 months. These cost $800 a piece. When this spa comes out of warranty the running costs are going to be prohibitive. Of course the official Hotspring chemicals are also prohibitively expensive. The service technician had the gall to suggest I wasn't maintaining the spa correctly. Both times I've run through the maintenance routine I have with him and neither time has be been able to say I've been neglecting anything. This isn't the first spa I've owned.
In servicing the Ace cell we noticed that the plumbing for this spa is leaking in two places - looks like the same seal on each of the two pump motors is crap. Apparently this is a common problem.
The Hotspring Grandee spa is a giant waste of money. It was overpriced to start with, and the running costs are prohibitive. And it's not even a very good spa! The heater is *way* underpowered, the design with all the jets and 'water features' is silly - no-one ever uses them anyway. I only bought this model because it was *big*. The quality is terrible. The Ace system is a joke.
Regretting wasting the money.
DONT BUY THIS SPA!
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The pump seals are covered under the five-year warranty.
Ask your dealer if he will 'trade in' your ACE for the Freshwater III ozone system. It is nowhere near as high tech, but it works just fine and will not cost as much.
I am not sure if the units I have here will work on your power - I'll check if you are interested, but I could send you an ozone for about a quarter of what you quoted for just an ACE cell.
BTW - I have had five or six Grandee tubs - never regretted one. I love that model, and all of mine have worked just right. I have SOLD dozens and dozens, people have loved them. Keep in mind, here our tubs have 4KW heaters. Some of the HS models have 6KW heaters here - depends on the size of the pump motors. I wish I had an answer for you on that 1000 watt heater.
HTH
8)
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I would say Welcome to the forum, but I fear your only here to bash the spa and move on. Oh, heck Welcome to the forum. Dozens or so Grandee tub owners her would disagree with your generalization. However, I do have to ask the group, or people in the know, 1.2kw heater? Could that be true? That would seem to be seriously under powered.
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I too would like to say welcome, and it sounds as if your complaints are mainly regarding the Ace system and the under sized heater your spa was equiped with. You are not the first to complain about the Ace system, it does seem to be a work in progress on the part of Hot Spring, but at least they seem to be trying to fix the problems, so hopefully by the time your warranty runs out they will have most of the bugs worked out. As to the heater I do know Hot Spring uses under sized heaters on some of their export models, this is done because houses in certain countries tend to have MUCH smaller electrical services than the U.S. standard domestic 150 or now 200 amp 120/240V service, in some places this may be as little as a 30 amp service for an entire house. I suspect upgrading the size of your heater would solve many of your problems assuming your electrical service can support it.
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What type of voltage and current supply do you have available at the main power supply service entrance?
A quick search indicates you have 230/240 volt AC for standard residential power but does not indicate common panel sizes.
What amp service do you have at the main and what do you have capability to get to the tub?
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What a disaster.....I decided on Hotspring because they're supposed to be high quality (ha!).....I decided on the Grandee because friends like to visit. And I decided on the Ace saltwater chlorination system because the sales-person convinced me it would take my maintenance time down.....
On a positive note... The spa was delivered on time, and.....placed it in exactly the right spot.....then I discovered the first problem. A 1200W heater is *way* under powered..... A few days after the spa was installed we had a wind storm, and I discovered the next problem with this spa. The latches on the cover straps are useless, and the cover straps are very weak and can tear easily.....it had unlatched from two corners, and torn off the other two straps when the cover lifter slid the cover back.....the next problem is the Ace salt water cells. I've had *two* fail in 18 months.....These cost $800 a piece. When this spa comes out of warranty the running costs are going to be prohibitive.....The service technician had the gall to suggest I wasn't maintaining the spa correctly. Both times I've run through the maintenance routine I have with him and neither time has be been able to say I've been neglecting anything.,,,,In servicing the Ace cell we noticed that the plumbing for this spa is leaking in two places - looks like the same seal on each of the two pump motors is crap. Apparently this is a common problem.
The Hotspring Grandee spa is a giant waste of money. It was overpriced to start with, and the running costs are prohibitive. And it's not even a very good spa! The heater is *way* underpowered, the design with all the jets and 'water features' is silly - no-one ever uses them anyway. I only bought this model because it was *big*. The quality is terrible. The Ace system is a joke.
Regretting wasting the money.
DONT BUY THIS SPA!
Welcome NZArtist, POST # 1 seems to be filled with anger and regret, and does not ask for a single recommendation for solving a problem, or seeking advice, but it does seem to be a vendetta reflecting great disappointment, I get that. You are disgruntled to say the least over your decision during the evaluation process.
- You emphasize the cost of the ACE system that has been replaced twice, were they replaced under the warranty? or did they cost you $800 each? Any water maintenance system, in any hot tub requires attention and understanding. It seems obvious the "water" did not meet your expectations. With so many friends using the spa, how can you begin to judge what they are putting into the water during their soak, remember, everyone gets out squeaky clean.
- Pump seals are subject to the conditions under which they operate. If they run without water they will fail, and that would be a common problem, could this have contributed to the failure, and were they replaced under warranty?
- As for the cover latches, they do not unlatch themselves, and when different people open the cover, it is a common problem for them to "forget, or not think" to unlatch the back latches when opening the cover. Of course they are going to rip and tear determined by the force exerted if they are not unlatched when sliding the cover back with a force greater than their strength. This is hardly a fault of the cover, but certainly a disappointment to the owner.
- Now you speak of your choice disparagingly claiming it is overpriced, not even a good spa that you only wanted because it was "big", and the amenities are "silly", but still you spent a very large sum of money. I am puzzled how this passed your evaluation process during your shopping experience.
- As for the under powered heater, Isaac-1 makes a very good point worthy of recognizing. What is the maximum amp capacity in your electrical service? And if you think your running cost are "prohibitive" now, do you think a larger heater is going to make you happy?
First, I am not defending a brand, but you must have been happy at some point during this process, but you are certainly filled with anger now. With 10's of thousand of Grandee's in service, it is so hard to understand how one could be so deficient, but apparently it must be yours. :(
HOW CAN WE HELP YOU? :-\
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Clover, you are spot on!! I have owned a Grandee for over a year now and it has exceeded my expectations. Sorry to hear NZArtist is experiencing big problems, but I sure am glad I live in NY ;)
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The Cells were replaced under warranty. Warranty runs out in six months. I've had two cells in 18 months. I extrapolated the ongoing costs out of warranty will be $800 every nine months for a replacement cell. The branded Hotspring chemicals are outrageous - for example the 1kg of salt required on refilling the spa is circa US$22. Generic brand is circa $1.00 per kg.
The pump has never been operated without water. I rarely run the jets at all because it cools the spa too quickly. They're mostly run for a cleaning cycle (about once every two days, or when several people have used the spa).
I check the chemical balance of the spa once a week. Clean the filters once a month. Clean the cell once.... but it fails before I get to the second cleaning. I drain, scrub, refill, and rebalance the spa once every six months.
The power supply here is 240V, 100 Amp, and I got a 25 Amp dedicated supply wired to the spa. As the heater doesn't run at the same time as the jets there is *oodles* of spare capacity. Even my kitchen kettle can have twice as powerful a heater than this spa, apparently. (By Breville appliances. They're excellent.) . The cost of running a more powerful heater will only be marginally higher than running the underpowered one because it will only be running when the spa is under temperature. The powerful one will still pump the same Joules of energy into the water to raise the temperature. It will just do it faster. The advantages will be after refilling the spa - hours instead of days. And soaking in the winter where it will keep the water warmer for longer.
The cover latches were definitely latched. I checked them myself before bed as it was starting to get windy. The design is poor and the ones I used to replace (different brand of spa) have been flawless. The vinyl straps are flimsy and ripped in half. The replacement nylon webbing straps are much more robust.
No, my friends aren't dirty. Thanks for the suggestion.
No, the water quality here isn't bad. It's rainwater, triple-filtered and UV sterilized, before it even got to the spa. The softening teabag didn't even realize it was in water, it's so soft. The indicator strips flash on the setting "Fluffy Kitten Soft" when I use them, every week.
Yes, I spent a large sum of money. I was fooled by the marketing buzz. I was also fooled by the excellent quality of my cheaper spa which I owned for years. It had two shortcomings - too small and thrice-weekly balancing. I kind of thought (stupidly, I readily admit!) a more expensive brand would have the basic functionality well established, while giving me the added features of larger size and less maintenance time. I really didn't expect the name-brand spa to have such poor quality.
Okay, I got the lemon. The spa made on the Friday before the long weekend. I also got the two lemon Ace cells. Looking forward to the third Ace cell having been made on a Tuesday. I also got the salespeople and technicians made on a Friday who keep assuming it's something I'm doing to the spa (or my filthy friends).
As I say, this isn't the first spa I've owned. And I guess it wont be the last. But the next one sure as hell wont be a Hotspring spa.
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I would say Welcome to the forum, but I fear your only here to bash the spa and move on. Oh, heck Welcome to the forum. Dozens or so Grandee tub owners her would disagree with your generalization. However, I do have to ask the group, or people in the know, 1.2kw heater? Could that be true? That would seem to be seriously under powered.
The forum is named "What's the best hot tub". If I'm having a bad experience with a brand of hot tub isn't this the perfect place to let others know?
In keeping with the mission of this forum: The Grandee hot tub from Hotspring is *so* not the best hot tub.
And regarding the heater... Yes. Yes it's true. The heater is around half the power of my kitchen kettle (which runs happily off a 10Amp standard 240V wall socket and can be purchased from any appliance store).
Power is Volts x Amps. Amps = Power / Volts. My 2200W kettle uses around 9 amps. The 1200 W heater in my spa uses 5 amps. The spa heater doesn't run while the jets are running (according to the Hotspring spec sheet) so I have 20 spare amps lying around wondering why I spent the money on the upgraded supply.
Okay, look, I really don't begrudge the actual money. I regret looking like an idiot. I regret the added stress of wondering when I'll have to clean out the black flakes spat into the pool from the Ace cell. I regret my friends being 'understanding' about the spa instead of just enjoying it. I regret the water going cold when I'm listening to Jazz under the stars with friends. I regret the fact I've had to re-engineer aspects of the spa when I spent the money specifically to avoid that. I regret dealing with technicians and salespeople who treat me like an idiot for the faults in their spa, when they should be treating me like an idiot for buying their brand. I regret my experience with the hardware poisoning my relaxation in the spa. This thing is causing me stress which is the antithesis of its intended purpose. I regret buying the name brand instead of the local generic brand.
Money is just money. It's all the other stuff that's annoying me.
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Action plan:
1) After this weekend (I have a guest staying who will probably enjoy a spa), drain the spa and get the pump seals replaced.
2) In six months the spa will be out of warranty. There's a 3kW after-market heater available. What will I wreck on the spa if I upgrade the heater?
3) If the current replacement Ace cell fails again in 8 months, when the spa will be out of warranty, I'm going to ditch the Ace system. What can I replace it with and what's going to go wrong? What're the pros, cons, and maintenance issues with whatever comes next?
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so your supplying 25 amps to a spa that requires 50 amps?
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so your supplying 25 amps to a spa that requires 50 amps?
Where do you get the 50 Amps figure? I'm on a 240 V supply here. If you double the voltage you halve the current and get the same power.
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In the US our electrical system is somewhat different, we have 120/240V split single phase supplied to households, most small appliances are run on 120V, and larger appliances, ovens, water heaters, dryers, etc are run on 240V. Here Hot Spring offers some of their smaller tubs set up to be convertible between 120V at 20 amps, or 240V at 50 amps, these tubs have a heater that works at 1,500 watts at 120V or 6,000 watts at 240V, at 120V they turn off when the jets run, or the electronics can be configured to run at 240V and run the heaters full time at 6,000 watts even when the jets run if 50 amps at 240V is available (technically most of these tubs are wired with 2 breakers, a 120V 20 amp for the 120V motors and a 240V 30 amps for the heater ). The simple and perhaps first step may be to upgrade the electrical wiring to the site where your tub is located to handle running pumps and existing heater at the same time, this is probaby a simple matter of a jumper change either in softeware or hardware depending on the age of your tub.
The above example is somewhat generic as it does vary by model on exactly how the electrical connection is done here.
As to heaters you might consider importing a US 240V Hot Spring heater that runs at 5,000 or 6,000 watts.
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North America / Western Hemisphere has a rather unusual electrical supply than the rest of the world. In Europe, and I believe New Zealand, the electrical supply is 230v 50hz (North America is 240v 60hz [hz refers to the number of cycles the electricity "alternates" per second]). Additionally, the 230v supply consists of a SINGLE hot wire at 230v, and a neutral wire (and get this, in some countries the hot wire is WHITE, and the neutral BLACK). I've seen plenty of homes in Italy, Great Briton and France that ONLY have a 30 amp main service (for those of you outside the US, a 100 amp service is about the lowest here in the US, 200 amps is very common...and I've seen up to 400 amp services)..
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I have a 200 amp panel and a 100 amp panel in my house/garage.
Fix the heater and seals and ditch the salt water. Your seals/tub will last longer. Dichlor and bleach.
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Okay, so a 3kW heater is or isn't going to work? Any Hotspring gurus know if I'll end up replacing the controller as well? If I get the 3kW heater can I avoid rewiring the connection?
I don't mind getting an electrician in. Like he says - existing wiring makes a perfectly fine pull-wire for better wiring. If we need to have 2 x 25A cables and separate out the motor from the heater so be it. I'd prefer to have a solution even if it costs a bit more rather than spend the next few years annoyed at getting cold in the spa.
And it's cheaper than replacing the entire spa pool and starting again.
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I am far from a Guru, I just bought a just Hot Spring tub and wired it up myself, a few months ago, which required a bit of studying of the manuals, etc. since I had to reconnect it from 240V mode to 120V model. I really doubt you will need to replace the controller, however Hot Spring did change the controller design a couple of years ago, and I don't know if you have the older or newer style controller on your tub. I don't know much about the new one as my tub actually has the close cousin predecessor of the one they discontinued a couple of years ago.
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The forum is named "What's the best hot tub". If I'm having a bad experience with a brand of hot tub isn't this the perfect place to let others know?
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Not arguing there, though I do find your generalizations a bit much. It can be typical of a person who gets a bad item to try and spread it over the internet. You may not be in that mold, but my message was to draw you out a bit. Can't argue with your experiences, and also hope to learn a little. I've never heard of HS putting such a small heater in their biggest tub. The Salt water system, I can't comment on. The latches have worked fine for thousands of owners. I'm just trying to encourage you from labeling the entire model or brand junk when so many would disagree.
-Not afilliated with Hot Springs all nor is this forum supported by.
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I've never heard of HS putting such a small heater in their biggest tub.
Well... now you have.
I can possibly resolve it by making modifications to their US$22,000 product to make it adequate.
I can also possibly modify their product so it doesn't spit black flakes into the water after nine months and cost me an additional $800 (when it comes out of warranty).
And I can drain the spa and keep this US$22,000 product unusable while the technician replaces the apparently common fault of the motor seals failing.
It's only US$22,000 for a bent piece of plastic, three motors and a heater. I shouldn't expect the remaining US$20,000 left over from materials to have actually been spent on Quality Assurance. They have to pay for all that glitzy sales pitch, after all.
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Yeah something is not jiving here. Hot Springs builds a great spa, the fact that you are having problems is tough for you obviously. But if yours is doing it, so are all the other HS spas your dealer has sold in the area. Either it's a wiring issue or something is not hooked up right, wrong heater put in the spa, bad circuit board it's not adding up. Id be camped out at the dealer or on the phone to HS corporate and see what they say. They are a great company and stand behind what the sell, part of it might be a dealer issue not knowing what they are doing.
As far as the ace system I can't comment on that.
FWIW I sell Jacuzzi and Bullfrog brands so no cards in this game..
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I AM a HS guru, and I say go ahead and upgrade to the 3K heater. Be sure it matches your 1000 watt heater in all other respects. By that I mean: pressure switch if yours has one (If it has two small grey wires going to the temp sensors and a third grey wire going into the end of the heater, it has a p switch) or a self-resetting high limit if not.
The heater is switched on and off by a 'heater relay board' which can handle up to 6000w at 240v here in 60 cycle land, so it should have no problems running 3K at 220 50Hz.
Yes, I can get ozone systems which will work on your tub, and I would be happy to send it off. I do recommend the ozone system over the ACE system - as stated in my post above. But as I also stated above, I would ask your dealer to trade you back to the FWIII ozone system. Here in the US, all tubs come with the ozone installed. We take that OFF to install the ACE, and I, for one, give a trade-in value for it. Ask your dealer to swap it back, and let him keep the ACE for his troubles. If it's so amazingly valuable that he could charge you $x then surely he can give you back the ozone he didn't pay a cent for in exchange. Again- we get the ozone free here, can't be sure they do there.
Cheers - hope you get this thing to do what you want it to!
8)
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So my $22,000 Grandee mistake is sitting empty at the moment - since yesterday. Waiting for a service technician to come by to replace the two failed pump seals. The technician cant give me a date when they'll be here - just that it's likely to be within 8 working days. So it'll just have to sit empty until they get around to it.
Did I mention? Don't buy Hotsprings. They're overpriced, poor quality, and the heater is woefully underpowered.
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Day 4 with hot tub sitting empty and idle, waiting for tech to get around to fixing the apparently commonly faulty pump seals.
No rush, guys. It's only US$22,000 of mistake making me feel bad about wasting my money. No rush.
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Well, I have to offer my counterpoint here. My beautiful new Grandee is flawless so far. Fit and finish is superb. Asthetically, just breathtaking. Pumps are very quiet. Remote controller is very cool, intuitive to use, capable of changing many parameters instantly. Our heater seems to be more than adequate, raising the temperature to 105F in about 5 hours. Of course I'm a new owner, and it seems as though the Grandee available domestically is a very different product from that available overseas. I just wanted to express my thorough satisfaction with my purchase, so that others reading this thread child get a more complete picture. NZArtist, I'm sorry you are having a negative experience, and I hope that all your issues are rectified soon.
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Day 8 - no sign of technician yet.
Hotspring Grandee $22,000 mistake still sitting empty and unusable.
Hotspring quality is appalling, heating is dismal, service is dire, and it is hugely overpriced. Don't buy Hotspring - buy anything but Hotspring.
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We get it, you're unhappy. I don't have a dog in this fight, but it's obvious that your issues are specific to your location much more than the manufacturer. I don't doubt that your heater is undersized (if it's as you mention), but it seems that this also is specific to your location since it's far different than what's sold in the US.
It seems people here have gone out of their way to provide you with advice and input, and have lent a compassionate ear - but none of that is satisfying your displeasure. The only thing that will help, is better service from your local dealer/service center and that is something NOONE here can provide.
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I've never heard of HS putting such a small heater in their biggest tub.
Well... now you have.
I can possibly resolve it by making modifications to their US$22,000 product to make it adequate.
I can also possibly modify their product so it doesn't spit black flakes into the water after nine months and cost me an additional $800 (when it comes out of warranty).
And I can drain the spa and keep this US$22,000 product unusable while the technician replaces the apparently common fault of the motor seals failing.
It's only US$22,000 for a bent piece of plastic, three motors and a heater. I shouldn't expect the remaining US$20,000 left over from materials to have actually been spent on Quality Assurance. They have to pay for all that glitzy sales pitch, after all.
Aside from all of that, how much did you pay for it?
::)
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So my $22,000 Grandee mistake is sitting empty at the moment - since yesterday. Waiting for a service technician to come by to replace the two failed pump seals. The technician cant give me a date when they'll be here - just that it's likely to be within 8 working days. So it'll just have to sit empty until they get around to it.
Did I mention? Don't buy Hotsprings. They're overpriced, poor quality, and the heater is woefully underpowered.
Did your arm recover from when the dealership twisted it behind your back until you bought it? I think not. You are responsible for you actions. You'll be hard pressed to find over 5 people on this forum that don't love their HS tub. I bought a HS Envoy just over a year ago.... and the wife and I love it. Quality is superior. I'm having to lean toward what I've read others post. It seem to be more of where you live and the kind of service you have running to it. I also don't have the ACE system. I considered it by weighing out what I read about it. I chose not to get it because of the reviews. That was a smart decision on my part. You had access to the same reviews. You are obviously not as smart as I. Did I mention that the wife and I love our HS tub? Oh, and I paid about 1/2 the amount you claim to have paid for yours. Oh, and one more thing... the wife and I love our HS tub.
Might I suggest you get rid of your $22000 spa and go to Wal-Mart and purchase one of their $400 inflatable spas. Either that or go online and buy a Chinese made Thermospa. You'll be happy with either of those. They would fit you perfectly.
Or maybe this one:
(http://i580.photobucket.com/albums/ss250/totallyrotten58/TopoftheLineHT.jpg) (http://s580.photobucket.com/user/totallyrotten58/media/TopoftheLineHT.jpg.html)
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Aside from all of that, how much did you pay for it?
::)
Want me to include time spent at my usual hourly rate chasing up service people as well?
I called up Hotspring 'service' again this morning asking where my technician was. The service manager said he was surprised I hadn't seen a technician yet. Anyone else here surprised?
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Aside from all of that, how much did you pay for it?
::)
Want me to include time spent at my usual hourly rate chasing up service people as well?
I called up Hotspring 'service' again this morning asking where my technician was. The service manager said he was surprised I hadn't seen a technician yet. Anyone else here surprised?
If you use the same attitude with them that you are using here, they are most likely taking their time for a reason.
(http://i580.photobucket.com/albums/ss250/totallyrotten58/yawn.png) (http://s580.photobucket.com/user/totallyrotten58/media/yawn.png.html)
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If you use the same attitude with them that you are using here, they are most likely taking their time for a reason.
Thank you for your helpful reply.
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I called up Hotspring 'service' again this morning asking where my technician was. The service manager said he was surprised I hadn't seen a technician yet. Anyone else here surprised?
Don't you mean you called your dealer (not the actual manufacturer)?
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Where is the BS flag? Bill time to cull the heard, my best guess is he is related to vortex spa's some how.
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JJ, LOL ;D. It sure sounds like it. Nobody has been on a tirade like that since 2 nights ago in Ferguson Missouri...
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Thanks for your concern.
Yes I do own a Hotspring Grandee mistake. I can post photographs of the thing with a copy of the receipt if you like.
I'm so very pleased you all minimize my experience with Hotspring, call me not smart, and a liar. It makes me feel all that much better about my experience.
So yesterday the technician replaced the pump. He accused me of doing something wrong - of not maintaining the chemical balance. We pointed out I check it every single week and keep it balanced (I've owned a spa pool before - it's not difficult).
He said nevertheless if the pump fails again, even under warranty, I'll be charged for the replacement.
So now begins the marathon of heating the behemoth again with it's completely underpowered 1.5kW heater. Yesterday at 3pm the water going into the spa was 14 Deg C. This morning at 8:15am the temperature was 27 deg C. Got another 11 degrees to crawl up before I can use the spa. I wonder if it will be done by this evening.
So to recap the service experience: The service man was outside their committed time (without any phone or email contact by way of explanation). The motor failed because I was doing something wrong - we cant say what, but it must have been, right? And if it fails again I'll be charged for it, even if it's in warranty.
This company is a bad joke. Their spa pools are atrocious. Worst spa I've ever owned. Will *not* be buying another Hotspring spa ever.
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I called up Hotspring 'service' again this morning asking where my technician was. The service manager said he was surprised I hadn't seen a technician yet. Anyone else here surprised?
Don't you mean you called your dealer (not the actual manufacturer)?
I mean I deal with Hotspring Spa in 35 William Pickering Drive, Albany, Auckland, New Zealand. They don't manufacture the spa-pools there, no.
The spa pools are imported from the US. It takes a *long* time. Well worth the wait though. Oh, wait, no it wasn't.
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10:15 am - heater has been running for 19 hours.
Current temperature is 28.5 deg C (83.3 deg F)
My target temperature is 38.5 deg C (101.3 deg F)
I don't think I'm going to get to have a spa this evening.
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12:15pm
30.5 Deg C (86.9 Deg F)
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10:15 am - heater has been running for 19 hours.
Current temperature is 28.5 deg C (83.3 deg F)
My target temperature is 38.5 deg C (101.3 deg F)
I don't think I'm going to get to have a spa this evening.
Did I all-of-a-sudden switch to Facebook? Play by boring play... We don't care any more. We used to right up until you posted your second word of your first post.
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So did you upgrade to the 3kw heater as discussed earlier in the thread, or are you expecting a faster heating time out of the same 1.2kw heater that you're already unsatisfied with?
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Ok , I know its "buyer beware" and everyone is responsible for there own research but if they do sell a tub this big with basically a bic lighter for a heater , then that sounds almost criminal to me .....a hot tub that wont get hot ?
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2:15pm
32 Deg C (89.6 Deg F)
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So did you upgrade to the 3kw heater as discussed earlier in the thread, or are you expecting a faster heating time out of the same 1.2kw heater that you're already unsatisfied with?
Not yet. I'm not going to modify it until it's out of warranty. If I do anything after market Hotspring will refuse to honor their warranty. They're already threatening not to replace my pump seals if they fail again even if it's in warranty.
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4:15pm
34 Deg C (93.2 Deg F)
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Sorry the tech was late, and tried to tell you they will not honor the warranty 'next time.'
That is not true - the manufacturer will honor the warranty. Here, it's five years on the pumps. If I replace a pump, it will be covered until the tub is five years old.
8)
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There is not a lot you can do to a pump other than bad chem care on your spa or you let something get sucked in it and jammed the impeller. Most just fail because they do.
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*yawn*
Why is this not in the dead horse section?
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Well it didn't get up to 38.5 Deg C last night in time for a spa.
But it's there now. I can look forward to a soak later today.
Now that it's up to temperature I'll run the jets a few times and see if the leak is fixed.
I look forward eagerly to another couple of months of break-down free use of my spa.
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I feel bad that your experience has been so terrible, but as stated in this thread, Hot Spring is a reputable manufacturer that sells quality spas. I personally consider them a bit overpriced, but they have a good reputation for a reason. It seems that your poor experience is mostly related to the retailer that you purchased from and the undersized heater that is used in New Zealand.
I think it was bad business for the tech to say that they won't cover it if it fails again. I also think that you should be able to get it replaced under warranty if it occurs. Go above the tech and talk to his boss first. If he doesn't take care of it, I would call Hot Spring (manufacturer) directly. They tend to take care of their customers when the local dealer doesn't do so. I sold them many years ago, and they have a pretty good company culture that promotes great customer service.
By the way, you may get better responses on here if you didn't seem so combative.
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Well, here we are 13 months down the line.
The Ace saltwater cell has failed yet again. It's now spitting the black flakes into the spa pool, as they do when they fail.
Wouldn't you know it... one month out of warranty.
So in two years we've gone through three Ace saltwater cells. Hotspring doesn't tell you when you buy one of their spas you need to budget $800 per year for Ace cells.
What a joke.
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Yeah, this thread should probably go to the beating horse section. I read some of his other posts and he sounds like the type of person who will never be happy.
On a side note, I purchased a 2005 Envoy and used it almost daily for 10 years without a problem so in my opinion Hot Springs makes a great product and have been very happy with my spa.
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I agree that Hot Springs makes a great product, but there are just too many stories out there of people having trouble with the ACE system and having to spend a lot of money to replace the cell. So for me, it would be Hot Springs yes, but ACE - not a chance.
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Gomboman you just posted that you were having trouble with your tub :o
Most people would agree that HotSpring is a reliable quality spa, but it sounds like he may have a lemon. Or maybe the spa is fine but the salt systems continue to be problematic, which many people have had issues with on here in the past.
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Andy (NZArtist) don't you have some sort of legal recourse such as small claims court?
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Andy (NZArtist) don't you have some sort of legal recourse such as small claims court?
Yeah, I really should talk to the Commerce Commission about Hotspring. Their claims about the ACE system are really misleading. Their claims about the capabilities of their 1200W heater were misleading as well, although there's nothing in writing saying it will actually keep your spa warm while you're in it. Mostly it was the assurances of the sales people who swore it was adequate for the spa.
The leaking pumps are just indicative of shoddy manufacturing, but they were replaced under warranty (with the technician threatening no other repairs would be covered).
And the exorbitant price I paid was me being stupid for thinking they were a quality brand.
I'll look into reporting them to the Commerce Commission, although to be honest I expect the process will be dehumanizing, depressing, and soul-destroying. And at the end of it at best Hotspring will get a 'Change your advertising, and carry on', and I'll still have a crappy spa, with Hotspring determined to give me the shittiest service possible for reporting them.
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Darn, I was hoping for the hourly update on your water temperature.
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Have fun with it. I'm guessing you're are an artist of some sort. Be creative and make a youtube video about your experience - it could be a infomercial or maybe even a drama :). When I was looking for videos on hot tubs I did not come across that many except from the manufacturers themselves. Don't let it get you down. Your comments on here were one reason I did not look at Hot Springs.
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Somehow, I suspect there's a lot more to this. No, not with regards to the manufacturer.
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Yeah, probably a lot more to it. He's actually lucky, tonight while he is sitting in his tub looking at the stars I'm over here still waiting for mine to be delivered. I have yet to experience what you all have done many days and nights in the past. Guess I'll have to be satisfied sitting on the couch tonight watching the Seahawks beat the Broncos.
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Darn, I was hoping for the hourly update on your water temperature.
Don't tempt me.
However if you have a better way of demonstrating the inadequacies of a 1.2kW heater in a spa that size I'd be happy to hear it.
Want me to post a video of the numbers on the temperature indicator on the spa counting down while I'm sitting in the spa?
I'm incredibly sorry if my reports on the spa problems I'm having here are annoying you. It must be incredibly frustrating for you to have to avoid reading a post about someone wasting over twenty thousand dollars on a terrible spa pool. You should go have a bit of a lie down to recover from your terrible experience of avoiding clicking the link to this thread.
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Somehow, I suspect there's a lot more to this. No, not with regards to the manufacturer.
Yeah, my first guess was aliens. But, nope, looks like it's just a bad design and build of spa pool.
What's your guess as to the sinister undertones of this thread?
Because, perish the thought someone would be having a host of legitimate problems with their overpriced, underpowered, poorly designed, unreliable Hotspring spa.
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Is there a possibility the spa is operating in 115v mode? I've pulled up the 2013 Hot Springs owners manual from http://www.hotspring.com/sites/default/files/highlife_owners_manual_2013.pdf (http://www.hotspring.com/sites/default/files/highlife_owners_manual_2013.pdf), and there's a note at the bottom of Page 31 that says when wired for 115v the heater drops to 1.5kw and you are restricted to either heaters or jets running.
Changing between modes appears to need a Hot Springs technician in addition to an electrician to do the work, so I'm wondering if it could have been left in 115v mode even if the wiring is correct for 230v operation?
From everything said about the local dealer they don't fill me with confidence, maybe worth contacting the parent company directly to ask for advice?
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What country is this spa in?
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What country is this spa in?
New Zealand. (240V electricity, to answer the previous question too).
Also interested in any tips on keeping Orcs out of the spa.
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And how many amps is it wired for?
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Earlier in the thread NZArtist said 25amps, but the wiring diagram in the manual suggests 50amps are required?
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5 pages of posts, I'm not spending the time going back to find it. Many countries outside the US (remember, "www" starts with World Wide) have very limited power supplied to homes. A lot of homes in many developed countries only have a 20a or 30a service supplying residential homes (this is 230/240v, and there is NO 120v available). This is no fault of the spa manufacturers, yet greatly limits what the power consumption of a spa can be (basically you have a 240v spa running comparably to a 120v spa in the US...and there's NO way to change that).
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So the question is, is it the fault of the overseas consumer for buying a tub manufactured in the US, or is it the fault of the manufacturer(knowing what's required for their tub to operate properly) for selling that tub to overseas consumers.
But reading back the last five pages, it seems most of his issues are with his local dealer. But there's no denying that no way should hotsprings ever have shipped this tub with 1.5kw heaters. And if that's what actually happened, he's right to be upset about that. But one question I'm wondering about is....did he ever directly contact hotsprings before going on a mult-page bashing campaign? Or did he just simply rely only on his local dealer for help. If that's the case, then bashing them without giving them a chance to resolve things is very unfair.
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Pretty sure this is his post on reviews.hotspring.com
Heater underpowered. Bad after-sales support.
Andy B. from Auckland, New Zealand.Age:45-54Gender:maleNo, I do not recommend this product.Posted
May 12, 2013The spa heater is badly underpowered. The spa rapidly cools down to an uncomfortable level in use. There is no after sales support.
This was a phenomenal waste of money (a *very* expensive mistake).
There are better brands. Don't by a Hotspring Spa.
By Peggy, Service Specialist, Customer Service,
May 15, 2013Good afternoon - Watkins appreciates your taking the time to provide feedback about your spa. As I shared in my direct email to you yesterday, I will be contacting your local dealer to see what might be done to improve your spa experience. I appreciate your spa purchase and will do what I can to improve the situation for you.
.
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Appears they did not improve his situation - so far
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Well given a lot of his problems continued after that date of that email, then he has every right to feel the way he does, and I feel bad for his situation given how much money he has invested.
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The house is wired for 100 amps, three-phase. It's a big house.
Yes, I've been dealing with Hotspring directly.
A man from Hotspring sent me an email asking me to contact him directly with my complaints, which I did, and he never replied again. In a nutshell, they want me to complain to them instead of on forums so no-one can see the problems.
The outlet for the spa is wired for 32 Amps, although the spa itself is rated 25 amps. Note that is really just to cover the start-up current of the two pump motors. A 1.2kW heater only draws five amps. (I = P/V where P = 1200W, V = 240V)
Yes, this all probably stems from New Zealand regulations about what can be called a 'portable spa', and is therefore subject to less safety regulation.
Nevertheless: The ACE system simply doesn't perform as advertised. The spa heater is underpowered - it cannot keep the spa warm in use in winter. The did leak from both motors. The technician did say any further failures wouldn't be covered by warranty. The spa cover latches did fail. And the thing is hideously overpriced. I thought the huge price was justified by the supposed quality of the spa - that was obviously wrong. (I really don't mind paying more for quality. I'm happy to spend money to avoid stress and problems.)
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The house is wired for 100 amps, three-phase. It's a big house.
Yes, I've been dealing with Hotspring directly.
A man from Hotspring sent me an email asking me to contact him directly with my complaints, which I did, and he never replied again. In a nutshell, they want me to complain to them instead of on forums so no-one can see the problems.
The outlet for the spa is wired for 32 Amps, although the spa itself is rated 25 amps. Note that is really just to cover the start-up current of the two pump motors. A 1.2kW heater only draws five amps. (I = P/V where P = 1200W, V = 240V)
Yes, this all probably stems from New Zealand regulations about what can be called a 'portable spa', and is therefore subject to less safety regulation.
Nevertheless: The ACE system simply doesn't perform as advertised. The spa heater is underpowered - it cannot keep the spa warm in use in winter. The did leak from both motors. The technician did say any further failures wouldn't be covered by warranty. The spa cover latches did fail. And the thing is hideously overpriced. I thought the huge price was justified by the supposed quality of the spa - that was obviously wrong. (I really don't mind paying more for quality. I'm happy to spend money to avoid stress and problems.)
What do other hot tub manufacturers do for heaters in your country? What does hot springs say about putting such a small heater in such a big spa?
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Andy,
I'm two weeks out from being the proud owner of a hot tub, kind of glad I didn't choose a Hotspring. Of course I'm still learning as many other newbies are. Why don't you post some pics in the "Show us Your Hot Tub" section. Maybe show me this ACE system which I read so many other complaints about on the earlier noted website. I'm curious what it looks like. Maybe Hotspring will read it and do what is right. Lets see some visual aids.
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Yes, this all probably stems from New Zealand regulations about what can be called a 'portable spa', and is therefore subject to less safety regulation.
And so how is this the manufacturers responsibility???
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99.9% of the time the dealer should take care of the customer before it gets to the manufacturer. If the dealer cannot, then it's up to the manufacturer. HS builds a great spa! I would not hesitate to buy one if it fit my needs.
I probably could have sold icenogel a spa, but I was up front that if I cannot service it if needed I don't want to sell it to him. And not to mention he is in another dealers territory and I didn't want to step on their toes.
Gotta be 100 times by now that I have said it, a great dealer is what drives the product and is the ambassador of the brand and company he represents.
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Jacuzzi Jim is 100% correct I was in the mood to buy a hot tub. I was willing to drive north to his place of business a little less than two hours away. He suggested I buy from a dealer closer to my house, for the reasons he noted. Two visits later, less than 2 hours total time I bought a Jacuzzi. It could have been from Jim. I appreciate his good business practice.
I agree the dealer should be the first to be given the opportunity to correct this situation, but they have not and neither has Hotspring since 2013. How it should be corrected I don't know. Hotspring should figure that out.
Proudly Made in America should mean something or maybe just sold by an American company?
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Yes, this all probably stems from New Zealand regulations about what can be called a 'portable spa', and is therefore subject to less safety regulation.
And so how is this the manufacturers responsibility???
That isn't. Selling a product fit for purpose is. And I'm not saying that's the reason their spas are so bad - it was idle speculation. It doesn't explain the leaking pumps, useless ACE system, the bad support. It only possibly explains the woefully underpowered heater. I mean, it doesn't even explain that. My kettle has twice the heating capacity of this spa.
They're a company. They exist to maximize profit. If they can cut regulatory corners and supplier liabilities by claiming it's a 'portable spa' then that's what they'll do.
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Have you phoned Hotspring Spas? Or do you just rant and rave on message boards about the problems in your life?
Any issue small or large Hotsprings has taken seriously and dealt with it head on in my experience.
Clearly your dealer is largely to blame with the pains you are experiencing.
Do problems happen with NEW GOOD QUALITY product? YES, yes certainly they do. It happens all the time but it all comes down to how it is handled.
Watkins will have an exact explanation for why you have a 1kw heater or whatever it is that is in there. I have never been in a situation where a potential client did not inquire as to the energy efficiency, heating ability etc of said hot tub. Every single time sale or no sale the customer has asked this question. Either the dealer lied to you so shame on them or you did not take the time realize what you were buying and why it was that way. Should one assume that a 'hot tub' should be hot and have the capability to provide consistent hot water? Obviously.
So infuriating reading your bashing. Somewhere someone in Hotsprings customer service is screaming... "please let me help you!" But you are clearly content ranting and raving about what a mistake you made.
Porter
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Have you phoned Hotspring Spas?
...
So infuriating reading your bashing. Somewhere someone in Hotsprings customer service is screaming... "please let me help you!" But you are clearly content ranting and raving about what a mistake you made.
Porter
Yes, I have. Their responses are earlier in this thread.
I'm very sorry you're infuriated by my posting the problems with my spa. You'd better have a bit of a lie-down. It must be frustrating for you to be forced to read this.
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Lol
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I'm new to the whole spa thing, currently shopping and reading other folks' reviews, etc.
Looking at HS, I'll agree, they seem way overpriced! $22k? What is it about them that make people pay up to twice as much as other high end brands?
Anyway, now that you are out of warranty, why don't you just go ahead and replace the ACE thing with the cheaper ozone, and get the stronger aftermarket heater and have an electrician hook you up? Wouldn't that solve all the issues?
Sounds like you have nothing to lose, and you said you didn't mind spending some $$ to resolve the issues. Either that, or cut your losses and sell it, and buy something that you'll be happier with?
Good luck, sounds like you haven't been treated well at all by your dealer.
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Anyway, now that you are out of warranty, why don't you just go ahead and replace the ACE thing with the cheaper ozone, and get the stronger aftermarket heater and have an electrician hook you up? Wouldn't that solve all the issues?
Sounds like you have nothing to lose, and you said you didn't mind spending some $$ to resolve the issues. Either that, or cut your losses and sell it, and buy something that you'll be happier with?
Good luck, sounds like you haven't been treated well at all by your dealer.
Thanks for your comment.
Yeah, now it's out of warranty I'm looking at ways to make it useable.
First after-market option is this:
http://www.controlomatic.com/SaltwaterLineup.pdf
Anyone have a comment about the quality of the ControloMatic chlorination products?
Cheers.
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Why don't you ditch the salt water systems and just go with the HS Freshwater III Coroana Discharge system using a dichlor as a sanitizer? This is a well established system for your spa. I think this would solve most of your problems. The 1KW heater is another problem that must be related your part of the world. In the US I believe they use a real 6KW heater for the Grandee or at they used to.