Hot Tub Forum
General => Beating a dead horse => Topic started by: brianlocker on October 29, 2006, 01:31:17 am
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I live in the suburbs of Chicago and I am trying to decide on a new tub. I like the configuration of the Sundance Maxxus 880, but the guy at the Artic Spa dealer makes good points for the Kodiak SE. He especially touts the Heatlock system vs. the full foam system as being more heat efficient, and with the full foam, it is very difficult to do maintenance on them. Does someone out there have an opinion about which spa is better?
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Did anyone else hear that sound? I think it was a can of worms being opened......
Just kidding. I dont mean to downplay your question whatsoever, and I know just how frustrating it can be shopping for a tub and trying to filter out all of the conflicting info that you hear. Let me summarize what I think the overall answer to your question will be, and I'm sure others will chime in with details and specifics:
-Neither spa is "better". You have listed two well regarded, well-made tubs. You asked if anyone had an opinion if one was better. I'm sure they do, but......
-You MUST wet test a tub to decide which one is better for *you*
-The Arctic guy will tout his heat-lock system till he's blue in the face, and Sundance will tout something else the same way. Each company has it's flag to wave.
-Do a search on FF vs TP in the "dead horse" section. That will give you a sampling of how much this topic has gone 'round and 'round. (Arctic's heatlock is a little different, but the debate is the same.)
-Most people here will say that if you have narrowed your selection down to well made, well represented tubs (and you have) then pick the one that fits you, from a dealer that you want to work with, for the price you can afford, and dont sweat the details of pump HP, insulation, jet count, etc.
Good luck, take your time, and may you be up to your neck in hot water as soon as possible!
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Brian, Anne could not have put that any better. I really don't think anyone needs to chime in after those perfectly spoken words. :)
Chad
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brianlocker, have you wet tested the Maxxus yet? If not, do so at your first opportunity. I, too, had the Maxxus on my list of potential spas, but after a wet test I was able to quickly eliminate it.
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If you're looking for an amazing foot (and even leg) massage I will offer that you can't beat the foot dome in the Maxxus. It's my favorite thing about our Optima (which has the same footdome) and I couldn't be without it. Also, I found the seats in the Optima (again, very similar to the Maxxus) much more comfortable than the Arctic. As far as overall quality though, I'm sure you can't go wrong with either. It should come down to which one feels best to you...
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I agree with Anne, narrow it down to: comfort, price, and service. Remember that the insulation question on two well made tubs may end up being 1 dollar (at the most) difference per month off of your electricity bill. That twelve dollars per year is peanuts compared to choosing a tub that fits you well.
I bought the Frontier from Arctic last month and have been very pleased with it.
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I own a Sundance Maxxus. I absolutely LOVE the tub. I feel it is very well made and pretty dang efficient. In fact we did not notice a single difference in our utility cost after we went on-line. Now regarding insulation I would have to go with the full foam. Being from ND I can really relate to being well insulated. Good Luck!
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Frankly, I wouldn't buy anything but full foam. And to boot, if I were to buy again, the spas at the top of my list are all full foam and not because they are full foam.
If you are really concerned about maintenance, be sure to check out the electronics, because that is what is going to fail the most and cost the most money to repair. 99% of todays spas will never have a leak and if they do, it will be in the equipment compartment....unless they freeze....which would be caused by electronics (or power outage).
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I could only wish, as an arctic spas owner that my tub choice was not surrounded by so much controversy. With that said, it is impossible to ask about arctic without bringing up the inevitable FF vs. TP debate.
I would first of all like to welcome you to the board and second say that your question is like every other person that comes to this board. Everyone comes to this board and asks whats the best, how much is a good price.
If you mention arctic, heads turn.
Anne is so right and she put it in perfect context.
I too believe that we cant tell you what is better without being bias. I own an arctic, so I would say arctic is the best. Others own Sundance and swear buy it. The common thread is that I bought Arctic because it fit my needs and comfort the best. Others buy Sundance, hotsprings etc etc etc. because they loved the feel of the tub, dealer support, and overall research that they did.
So what tub is the best?????????? It is so simple, the best tub is the tub you pick.
Now take FF and TP debate.......... Who cares!!!!!!! Honest to god. Both are respectable and energy efficient products. Both have pros and cons. Some will compare house construction to hot tubs. The bottom line is that when you spend 10k for a tub, you are getting something that will be good quality.
I pay 8.50 (canadian) extra a month during the heavy winter season. That is peanuts. My best friend has a full foam tub and he is exactly the same with his hydro bill. So is there a difference, no they are all well built tubs.
Dont fall victim of the hype. If you like the arctic and it feels right buy it and if the maxxus feels right and you like that buy it. Either way you are looking at great quality high end tubs.
The end!
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Oh, and by the way, I do own an Arctic, but I did not want that to be part of my original statement...... ;) I have not noticed a difference in my electric bill, though mine does tend to fluctuate a lot anyway, so it is hard to have a real trend to follow. I was not able to even wet test Sundance while shopping, so I cannot give you my opinion of them.....but there are lots of happy owners here!
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How about those Bears brian?
I have been involved in some "friendly"debates about FF vs Heatlock, jet leak repair costs, etc so at the risk of being attacked as another Arctic owner, I will only suggest that I agree with most of the posters already, but would only add that IMO the use of the enormous footprint of the Maxxus is not very efficient. There are only 4 active seats with one cooldown vs. the smaller Kodiak with 5 actives with a cooldown.
If you want more details on the Arctic line or the dealer in Libertyville (where I bought mine), you can PM me so we don't bore or aggravate the people on this site who don't care to read about Arctic owner "KoolAid" comments.
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I think there are 2 cool down seats in the Maxxus. I say I think because I am not sure what the definition of a "cool down seat" is. However, if it is a seat without jets; my maxxus has two. One by the waterfall and one by the entry step.
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Campsalot! I love your avatar! I'm a fan of Hobbes.
Brian- any luck wet testing yet? Any other brands caught your eye?
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How about those Bears brian?
I have been involved in some "friendly"debates about FF vs Heatlock, jet leak repair costs, etc so at the risk of being attacked as another Arctic owner, I will only suggest that I agree with most of the posters already, but would only add that IMO the use of the enormous footprint of the Maxxus is not very efficient. There are only 4 active seats with one cooldown vs. the smaller Kodiak with 5 actives with a cooldown.
If you want more details on the Arctic line or the dealer in Libertyville (where I bought mine), you can PM me so we don't bore or aggravate the people on this site who don't care to read about Arctic owner "KoolAid" comments.
Whats funny is, and it has been a while now so this is all kind of moot, but, Arctic owners call it being attached when they make some outrages claim of superiority over another brand and someone calls BS on them.
Next thing you know those who claimed the BS are the ones being called attachers, funny how that works. As an Arctic owner you are allowed your opinion of there fine product, but us, anyone else is not allowed our opinion of there mediocracy? Huh?
Sundance and Arctic make fine products. See what dealer you are most comfortable with and which tub you are most comfortable sitting in. They will both run about the same per month to operate, and Sundance has a proven track record for longevity and customer support. I also think Arctic may last a while but it hasn't been around long enough in it's current design to know.
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Can I ask a silly question? Why do I get the feeling that there is a hate on for Arctic Spas? :-? I have only been reading these boards for the last month but Arctic seems to get more bullets than any other brand listed.
The majority of Arctic owners seem down to earth about their brand ( example: Anne). It is human nature that all brands will have certain owners who want to shove their opinion down other peoples throat and irritate the heck out of people.
What have they done to get so many people angry?
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Good question and observation lagator. Some reasons for the bullets may include the fast growth pattern of Arctic. I have heard that Arctic has been one of the fastest gorwing (if not THE fastest) spa mfg in the world. Secondly, they have a insulation design (Heatlock) that runs contrary to the traditional FF design. Some folks who sell FF products just don't want to admit that there may be an alternative method of producing spas which MAY be more efficient in terms of energy costs. Thirdly, Arctic has many unique features which competitors question the reliability (Forever Floor, Peak Ozone, reflex torsion hoses, titanium protected heaters, sealed Italian pumps). You will also hear that Arctic has only been around 12 years so they still have not "proven themselves".
I hope you are not referring to me as one of those Arctic owners who want to shove my opinion down other people's throats, but I'm not. Whe I began shopping for spas I did a lot of research, studied the various aspects of how they are made and formed my own conclusions. I do defend the brand when there is misinformation disemminated and I will stand up to dealers (which some don't like). I try to be fair in everything I write but sometimes the written word is misinterpreted and then discussions go "south". I also try and supply more information to fellow consumers than the standard line, "wet test to see if a tub is comfortable". There are lots of spas that are comfortable so IMO an educated consumer should look into how they are made as well. I hope that helps.
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These are both good spas. Wet Test. Don't make the primary decsion based on the insulation. (concerning these two tubs. Both have satisfied customers and good track records).
As far as Artic taking a few hits, maybe. But they are not the only one. It seems to run in cycles around here. Folks were ganging up on the Hotsprings crowd a while ago, Master has gotten beat on pretty bad, Bullfrog, Artesian, all of them. Folks can get pretty emotional over these things, but Artic has not gotten beat on any more (nor less) than any other brand.
Some of the negative attacks come from folks being put off by artics agressive sales claims. They seemed to have calmed down a bit in the past year, but for a while they were passing out some pretty potent kool aid. :)
Some of the other attacks came from the hotly debated Insualtion debate...which..eh. I aint got the energy today.
Anyhow, Wet test. Aint no other way to make an intteligent, informed decsion. :)
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Tman122, I support the fact that arctic owners have been more sensitive on this board, however, how can you call your post subjective. In fact I would argue that your post is just another jab, like you have been known to do. You come out with a little sarcasim, a little over generalization, and then you disclaim arcitc with a quick jab.
I would agree that there has been people that join the board and post about arctic in a bad way. But those people come and go quickly as we all know.
Dont make it look like arctic owners are buying into a "superior product" as you say and then add that they are only "medeocracy".
Sundance makes a great tub, I would never discredit them. Yeah they have stood the test of time, but they have been around longer. What about all the posts last year from new sundance owners that went on and on about wireing issues with the lights and displays. That was more than a few people with issues. Do we just chalk that up to a bad year of product or bad batch???
Arcitc owners are not the only ones that support there product. Just last week tileman posted "overlooked and underappreciated". He talked about jacuzzi not getting the support. He added how great the tub is built and posted pics of his jets opposed to other tub jets. How come this post didnt go south like this one??? Why is it you only beef up like this over arctic posts??
I would suggest, that if you could stop hyjacking posts like this, then these subjects with arctic would not always get placed in beating a dead horse.
I dont appreciate being placed in a pile as if I have some rare contagious disease. I never brag about superiority and nither does any of the growing number of "REGULARS" on this board.
No one ever said that you and others are not entitled to their own opinions, however, if you are going to be factual, try not to make false over generalizations and try not to be so ready to twist screws that do not need to be tightened.
You are a very knowledgeable person, I hold you as someone very knowledgeable in this industry and I respect your thoughts and opinions. Just realize that we are all here to learn, some to have fun and chat with others and overall we are proud owners of a product that we all mutually enjoy, Hot tubs.
Every industry has bad seeds, and arctic has had its fair share because they were the new kid on the block and breaking into an established industry. They have had growing pains, however, I would argue to you that 12 years in the industry is not a fly by night company. I would argue that they are a sound company, they are a growing company and they sell a product that goes against the industry norm.
Lets leave it at that, so posts dont go south. Please
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Can I ask a silly question? Why do I get the feeling that there is a hate on for Arctic Spas? :-? I have only been reading these boards for the last month but Arctic seems to get more bullets than any other brand listed.
The majority of Arctic owners seem down to earth about their brand ( example: Anne). It is human nature that all brands will have certain owners who want to shove their opinion down other peoples throat and irritate the heck out of people.
What have they done to get so many people angry?
I don't think there is a hate for Arctic spas, just some Arctic sales persons who spout false statements about Arctic's thermopane system being more efficient and scareing buyers regarding repairing leaks in full foam spas. And its not just a few, but a long history of these tactics. I personally feel that Actic makes a fine spa. I don't like thermopane because it relies on the cabinet remaining a sealed unit which I don't think it can for the long run. I happen to feel that the most efficient way to heat your water is with a heater. Just my opinion and that only counts when I'm spending my money. I've seen Arctic spas up close. I don't really like everything just kind of hanging inside the cabinet. I feel more secure with the solid feel of a full foam spa.
Does thermopane work? I believe it does.
Does it work as well as full foam? I believe it does when done right.
Does it work better than full foam? I don't believe it does.
But its only an opinion...
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Whats funny is, and it has been a while now so this is all kind of moot, but, Arctic owners call it being attached when they make some outrages claim of superiority over another brand and someone calls BS on them.
Next thing you know those who claimed the BS are the ones being called attachers, funny how that works. As an Arctic owner you are allowed your opinion of there fine product, but us, anyone else is not allowed our opinion of there mediocracy? Huh?
Sigh. In a way I almost don't want to post anything, since I may just sound defensive, but when I learn to keep my mouth shut, I just wont be me. I agree with a lot of what Wes and Bosco said, and it doesnt need to be repeated. However...
I have been frequenting this board for about 10 months. When I first arrived, I definitely picked up on the "vibe" about Arctic being the ugly stepsister of the spa world. I was not here previous to 10 months ago to experience some of the bad sales tactics that have been discussed, but I do trust that it happened, as I trust those who recount it. (And I read some archives, and got a little "cool aid" from my dealer, but he was king of a clown). In the last 10 months, I have interacted indirectly with a number of different people from Arctic, and I think that the sales games have toned down, as I have been nothing but impressed with these people. I would say that Arctic as a company probably made some marketing mistakes, but I hope that is in the past. So I would challenge you, at least over the last 10 months, to give an example of "some outrages claim of superiority over another brand and someone calls BS on them" on this forum. I just dont think it has happened.
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Tman122, I support the fact that arctic owners have been more sensitive on this board, however, how can you call your post subjective. In fact I would argue that your post is just another jab, like you have been known to do. You come out with a little sarcasim, a little over generalization, and then you disclaim arcitc with a quick jab.
Here we go again Bosco. Your opinion of Arctic can't be any more relavent than mine. This is an open forum, and we are all allowed our opinion. As an Arctic owner I expect you to be insulted, but if being insulted by my opinion gets me chastised then so be it. But maybe a public forum with other peoples available opinions is not where you should be hanging out because there, believe it or not, may be several thousand people in this world who do not believe Arctic is anything more than "mediocre" And just maybe my experience lends some credibility to my assesment.
Guess what, I think Hot Spring is nothing more than "mediocre"
To whoever mentioned why Arctic turns so many heads, now you know. Its because when someone states there opinion as nothing more than "mediocre" The Arctic crowd jumps all over us. And as long as that continues Arctic will continue to "turn heads" Arctic owners heads anyway.
Good question and observation lagator. Some reasons for the bullets may include the fast growth pattern of Arctic. I have heard that Arctic has been one of the fastest gorwing (if not THE fastest) spa mfg in the world. Secondly, they have a insulation design (Heatlock) that runs contrary to the traditional FF design. Some folks who sell FF products just don't want to admit that there may be an alternative method of producing spas which MAY be more efficient in terms of energy costs. Thirdly, Arctic has many unique features which competitors question the reliability (Forever Floor, Peak Ozone, reflex torsion hoses, titanium protected heaters, sealed Italian pumps). You will also hear that Arctic has only been around 12 years so they still have not "proven themselves".
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I don't think it's any of those things in particular that you mementioned wes. I think you have to put them all together except the fastest growing thing and call it marketing then you have it.
So I would challenge you, at least over the last 10 months, to give an example of "some outrages claim of superiority over another brand and someone calls BS on them" on this forum. I just dont think it has happened.
The Arctic sales crowd has no dout improved there tactics and it all relates to there communication officers hard work and dilegence monitoring this forum and every other forum, Tom is a great guy. However Anne I challange any Arctic owner to admit here that, they purchased believing there tub was nothing more than as good as several other brands. Of course they all think they are superior. Ask wes he will tell you why and even if experience here tells him different it will not matter to him.
And we here are a tiny tiny fraction of the tub owners out there, most of them could care less and there tubs, no matter what the brand, are just as good and last just as long. But try and get an Arctic owner to realize it. Although I am sure there are those Arctic owners who don't post or visit these forums that say. "Arctic Smarctic who cares it's just a box of hot water"
Sigh........I will never be understood. I don't even bash a product and I get accused of throwing in a stab at it. There are a couple things I don't like about the Arctic design and all of a sudden I am some kind of evil Arctic basher. There are things I don't like about alot of brands and yet I don't get bashed for pointing them out. I get accused of bashing a brand even though I am allowed my opinion of mediocracy and for some reason I get jumped all over by none other than the very crowd that can't understand why they are not getting the respect they think they deserve.
A couple simple questions for you Arctic owners I need to do a consensus for the rest of the board. How many years have you all owned your Arctic.? Is this your second Arctic? If so how long did your first one last?
I have only serviced one in the last 5 years because there isn't any dealers around me. I have been to a couple dealers and taken an entire unit apart to look under the hood.
Roger
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Tman, tell me where I jumped in all over you as you put it. I am not one of those supporters as you say, I believe in the same principles as you and others. I feel that your mouth gets the better of you from time to time unfortunately.
If you truely feel that your posts about this subject are not tounge and ckeek, then I owe you an apology. I feel that the sarcasim that you speak, really makes "Us People" feel like outcasts. Call the tub medeocre, I could care less, but do it in a tackful way.
Let me make it very clear to you, I dont care about TP vs. FF. I dont care if I bought a tub from shady sales guys like you just cant seem to let go. I dont care about people calling Arctic medeocre or below average.
If I understand you correctly, we arctic owners are constantly going on about superiority. Show me where friend. Anne asked you and you avoided it, so tell me where????
You will never be understood????? your opinions are respected by many, however, when you treat people like a minority group then you will never be understood. You claims are unsuported and not factual, and you mislead people by your cocky redorek.
If you got beefs with Arctic, Hotsprings and any other tub, good, keep up the good fight. Let me know how that is working for you. But please Tman, stop talking so much crap about arctic, I paid alot of cash for my tub and dont feel that I constantly need to be chastised about some bad sales strategy.
I see a trend with you. You come out with loud bold statements and when you get called to task on it, you just play the victim. What did I do, why are you picking on me, everyone else is so sensitive. Deny all you want, anyone can read in your writings and in the past writings just how this is. Every time Tman.
I even post you a compliment but you are so concerned about continuing the fight, that you overlook it. I would let it go, but not until you can appreciate "our" side a little more. You get so angry when others dont see your point.
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I forgot, Your consensus. I think in unfair and will be impartial. You know as well as I do, that this forum is viewed primarily by people in the market to buy and newer owners. As time passes, people drop off. So most people will say to you that they have not owned there tub that long. Also the second part of you post is to see if this is first and second to discredit the amount of time arctic has been around.
So I would say that your point must be overlooked. Why dont you call Arctic and find out how many tubs have been sold. Break it down to every year if you like. Ask how many tubs have been returned.
Why dont you ask board members, how many have purchased an arctic and decided that it was not a good tub and returned it or traded in for something else. That would support your consensus more. But again, you dont care about this, your just trying to prove your point that is old school and negative. Let go of the past, move forward have fun.
Again, to avoid your defensive reply, I could care less that you view arctic as mediocre. I disagree with the way you present it. One last point, you posted that we arctic owners believe our tubs are superior. Well fella, I am here to say like I have always that I dont think that. I dont think that any one brand is superior. I dont fall into the belief that my tub heats any better than any other tub, I dont believe my product or design is any better than any other.
I do believe that I bought a great item, one that competes with several top brands. But I never bought this tub thinking that I was buying the rolls royce of hot tubs. I liked the dealer, the seating configurement, I enjoyed the wet test and the overall look. Not to mention that the dealer is 1 km away form my house.
So again, your point is over generalized and unfactual. So I call you to task again.
Sorry to be this way with you, I really am. I just dont think you see the point that I am not going at you for your statements and opinions, rather they way you present them. separate the two, and I think you will realize that we are arguing the same points really!!
Waiting in anticipation!!!!
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[Sundance and Arctic make fine products. See what dealer you are most comfortable with and which tub you are most comfortable sitting in. They will both run about the same per month to operate, and Sundance has a proven track record for longevity and customer support. I also think Arctic may last a while but it hasn't been around long enough in it's current design to know.
Wait a minute now!! With a post like this, I got attacked by you. I think the one who has let there mouth get them in trouble is you!!
I stand by my statement and can repeat it if you like because maybe you didn't understand it the first time!! But it's above if you'd like to look.
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[Sundance and Arctic make fine products. See what dealer you are most comfortable with and which tub you are most comfortable sitting in. They will both run about the same per month to operate, and Sundance has a proven track record for longevity and customer support. I also think Arctic may last a while but it hasn't been around long enough in it's current design to know.
Wait a minute now!! With a post like this, I got attacked by you. I think the one who has let there mouth get them in trouble is you!!
I stand by my statement and can repeat it if you like because maybe you didn't understand it the first time!! But it's above if you'd like to look.
My intention was not a jab and it's to bad you saw it that way.
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Geez, I thought I sometimes get long with my posts bosco! Obviously, you and I are in agreement on most, if not all that you said. Being newer here, I didn't know that Tman was Roger. He and I have had a few disagreements but I trust that most have been done with respect for each other. Guys, this stuff is really not that important in the whole scheme of life. Think about our soldiers overseas fighting the dreaded and evil terrorists trying to keep us safe and it puts everything in perspective. Think about where you're going to spend eternity after your death and that really puts hot tobs in a low priority position. But enough of that!
Roger, I sincerely think (as you and I have agreed) that written posts many times get misinterpreted. I honestly have never "boasted" about Arctic superiority by slamming the competition. I have given credit, for example, to HS, Sundance, and Artesian for their innovations, and have many times offered glowing endorsements of non-Arctic products that I have wet tested. But as hard as it is for a lot of industry types to admit, Arctic has been an innovator with a lot of new good ideas which I believe are those engineering achievements that we owners try and educate our fellow consumers. (I don't believe I have EVER read any dealer on these sites that have credited Arctic without some sort of prodding). Personally, I find some other mfgs designs to be superior to some of those of Arctic, and I will readily admit that until I use my Tundra for a full year, the jury is still out as to whether this unit will serve the purpose that I hoped it would do. And I have openly informed readers of this site (and Whats the best) that I will honestly report things like energy usage, seating comfort factor, jet positioning, etc.
I was not around when the supposed aggressive marketing of Arctic personnel was thought to be over the top. But as a sales guy, you had better be more aggressive than less if you ever want to selll anything (especially if you're the new kid on the block). So why live in the past? Let's all move on, respect each other and the products we have purchased. That doesn't mean we can't ask pointed questions of each other's brands since that is how we all learn more. But to bash without fact is not warranted IMO.
Now you 2 guys kiss and make up! UH no, forget that. I mean shake hands!!!!
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Wes I signed my name so you would know who I was.
And your right.
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However Anne I challange any Arctic owner to admit here that, they purchased believing there tub was nothing more than as good as several other brands. Of course they all think they are superior.
And we here are a tiny tiny fraction of the tub owners out there, most of them could care less and there tubs, no matter what the brand, are just as good and last just as long. But try and get an Arctic owner to realize it. Although I am sure there are those Arctic owners who don't post or visit these forums that say. "Arctic Smarctic who cares it's just a box of hot water"
You are joking right???? Do you really honestly think you can generalize a statement like that about people who own a particular brand of tub??? Your opinions become less valid in my eyes if you regard me/us that way so flippantly. I will FREELY say that I do not think Arctic is superior. I think if you searched EVERY comment I have ever made here about Arctic, you'd see that I'm super happy with my tub, but I'd NEVER claim it is the best. Wes was very forceful in saying that his was the best for HIM, but I dont think he has ever tried to say that Arctic is the only good tub out there.
A couple simple questions for you Arctic owners I need to do a consensus for the rest of the board. How many years have you all owned your Arctic.? Is this your second Arctic? If so how long did your first one last?
I have only serviced one in the last 5 years because there isn't any dealers around me. I have been to a couple dealers and taken an entire unit apart to look under the hood.
This is my first Arctic tub. I have had it 8 months. It is my first tub period. WTF does it matter? I guess you are trying to show that none of us have been around tubs long enough to have an opinion???
How on earth did you get so jaded?????
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This has been really helpful for someone trying to choose between Arctic and Sundance.
:(
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Anne part of any manufacturers grading in my eyes is having a long standing reputation for reliability and meeting there custumers and service peoples needs. Many, many companys have proved it over the years. In my book Arctic hasn't yet. Will they? I do not know, can I speculate, yes, they seem to be run by some top notch people so I would say yes. Many companys have come, made a big statement, and then gone. I dout this will happen to them and we will find out. It is one of the things that have kept them from the top of my list. My list may not matter to you or anyone, as it shouldn't because it's mine. So just as you and many others have praised there brand, I to will tout my brand/s. This board is for consumers looking for information, unbiased information. I try and give that.
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Hey Bill- I respectfully suggest that this go to the horse graveyard. You could bury it right next to the other Arctic Spa dead horses.
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Tman, you come back at me with a part of post. Like I said I respect your opinions man, its the personal jab two paragraphs above the one you are talking about that bothers me. That paragraph was fine and factual based on opinion. But you did jab in the opening paragraph about arctic. Pretend you didnt all that you want. Im not running my mouth, I am just showing the facts.
I am done, no more arguing with you its not worth it. I would accept that I over stepped, however, others are in agreement that you are letting you opinions being over shaddowed by BS comments that are not factual and uneducated. Just my two cents, you dont have to like me, hell I dont even know you so no big deal to me. Im just asking that you post with some courtesy because ultimately you are looking like those same scummy dealers that you hate when you speak.
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Anne part of any manufacturers grading in my eyes is having a long standing reputation for reliability and meeting there custumers and service peoples needs. Many, many companys have proved it over the years. In my book Arctic hasn't yet. Will they? I do not know, can I speculate, yes, they seem to be run by some top notch people so I would say yes. Many companys have come, made a big statement, and then gone. I dout this will happen to them and we will find out. It is one of the things that have kept them from the top of my list. My list may not matter to you or anyone, as it shouldn't because it's mine. So just as you and many others have praised there brand, I to will tout my brand/s. This board is for consumers looking for information, unbiased information. I try and give that.
Um hm, yeah.......that was not the point.....you still did not respond to my challenging this statement of yours:
"However Anne I challange any Arctic owner to admit here that, they purchased believing there tub was nothing more than as good as several other brands. Of course they all think they are superior.
And we here are a tiny tiny fraction of the tub owners out there, most of them could care less and there tubs, no matter what the brand, are just as good and last just as long. But try and get an Arctic owner to realize it. Although I am sure there are those Arctic owners who don't post or visit these forums that say. "Arctic Smarctic who cares it's just a box of hot water" "
That is just a rude, silly, false thing to say.
Brewman is right- to the graveyard, please. HottubDan was right- HOW IS THIS HELPFUL NOW????? Sure, I'm still contributing too, but it is because I am still waiting for you to be able to support your rediculous statement.
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Anne part of any manufacturers grading in my eyes is having a long standing reputation for reliability and meeting there custumers and service peoples needs. Many, many companys have proved it over the years. In my book Arctic hasn't yet.
Geez, Roger, you are one tough hombre to please! :D
Lessee, Arctic Spas has been in business for 12 years, with numerous awards -- Canada's 50 Best Managed, Entrepreneur of the Year, 5 consecutive years in the Profit 100 list of Canada's fastest-growing companies, two International Business Awards, three product design awards, two IT awards, (and a patent in a pear tree, da-da dum!...check our site for the full list) -- three factories, five international distributors, dang near 250 dealers worldwide....
We think we've safely passed the "fly by night" stage. But in your book, Arctic hasn't made it yet? Wow! What's it gonna take? :o
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well put gray beard
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Thanks Tom for that response. I'm telling you, some in the establishment just don't like change!
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Anne part of any manufacturers grading in my eyes is having a long standing reputation for reliability and meeting there custumers and service peoples needs. Many, many companys have proved it over the years. In my book Arctic hasn't yet.
Geez, Roger, you are one tough hombre to please! :D
Lessee, Arctic Spas has been in business for 12 years, with numerous awards -- Canada's 50 Best Managed, Entrepreneur of the Year, 5 consecutive years in the Profit 100 list of Canada's fastest-growing companies, two International Business Awards, three product design awards, two IT awards, (and a patent in a pear tree, da-da dum!...check our site for the full list) -- three factories, five international distributors, dang near 250 dealers worldwide....
We think we've safely passed the "fly by night" stage. But in your book, Arctic hasn't made it yet? Wow! What's it gonna take? :o
Tom we have discussed this before and you know what it is going to take. You know as well as I do my attitude towards awards given to any one for anything. I am a hands on kinda guy and I have serviced hundreds of tubs in the last few years, and only one Arctic, it's not because they don't break down, its because there just aren't any around. And untill there are at least a few around for customers to beat on and for me to repair. I just can't give them the respect they may, or may not deserve.
I truly do wish there were hundreds of them around so I could see for myself. But untill that time I am not going to take the opinion of some guy (or girl) who has owned there tub for less than a year and use it to form my opinion of the manufacturer, that would be just plain dumb..
Didn't Yugo get an award once for inovation and economical design? And some value star thingy?
(Dissclaimer) I am in no way comparing Yugo to Arctic. It's about awards folks.
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Hey Roger, hope you're having a nice day! I won't be a "virgin" much longer as my Tundra is up and running and currently registering 75 degrees so tonight will be THE night! My wife and older son will be accompanying me on the "maiden voyage"!
Roger, even though you aggravate me at times, I still consider you to be a decent guy. Stubborn, but decent! I wish there were more Arctics up your way, but then what is up your way besides wild animals? (just kidding for those non-humorous types). Their lack of dealers (compared to HS, DI, Sundance) is probably the reason guys like you are still skeptical. Heck, here in metro Chicago, there is only ONE dealer and I had to travel an hour just to wet test! I think of how many more they could sell if they had greater distribution (since most buyers aren't as crazy as me to make the extra effort).
So I do understand your position and your points are well taken. By the way, were you born or raised in Missouri (the Show Me state)?
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Anne:
Thanks for the avatar comment. I thought it was Tigger from Poo. Either way he is preety cool!
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Tundra is up and running and currently registering 75 degrees so tonight will be THE night!
How about some pics of your setup?
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Hey rider how are you doing? I feel great considering my time is almost here! I was planning on getting pics on the site this weekend or early next week when I plan on having all my stone work completed. Then you can all see what a unit sitting on just stones will look like once the landscaping is done (except for bushes of course). It's going to look a lot different than yours since my existing patio didn't lend itself to my putting it there. Thanks for your interest.
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Tundra is up and running and currently registering 75 degrees so tonight will be THE night!
How about some pics of your setup?
Yes wes some photos please. And I do take what you said as a compliment. I to have grown to respect your opinion also, as I do for anyone who can at the very least keep up with my point of view. Believe it or not, ours aren't that much different (point of views I mean). But the one thing we do differ in is the fact that I don't think the differences between one brand you may have chose and another that you didn't choose are enough to make any difference what-so-ever to the standerd consumer, I however think that my way and my design is even better than Arctic or anyones for that matter. But I am way to old in my career to start a new.
I can completely eliminate heater use between filter cycles in temperatues down to 0 F. with nothing more than a 75 watt light bulb. and gain the 2-3 degrees back during filtration. So if I time my filter cycles to start an hour before my soak I only have heater use during long soaks on cold cold nights. I can cut down heater use even more during my soak with the pump on high but, I like a quiet soak on low.
So any way, I see you have learned me and I have learned you and mybe a common ground can be acheived as long as you shut up about Arctic ;D
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Anne:
Thanks for the avatar comment. I thought it was Tigger from Poo. Either way he is preety cool!
I thought it was Tigger at first too, which I still would have complimented, but on closer inspection I thought it was Hobbes, as in Calvin and Hobbes, which I sorely miss from my child/teen-hood. My grandma and I used to laugh ourself silly reading those books.
brianlocker- were we any help to you at all? Are you afraid to ask anymore questions? ;) Dont be.
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Tundra is up and running and currently registering 75 degrees so tonight will be THE night!
I however think that my way and my design is even better than Arctic or anyones for that matter.
I cant help myself.....I'm sorry, this is popping out and I have no control over it....
So if you think your design is better than Arctic "or anyone" why do you pick on Arctic? ;D ;) ;D ;)
(I really dont expect an answer. I just needed to be a little cheeky since you never answered my other question.)
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Tundra is up and running and currently registering 75 degrees so tonight will be THE night!
I however think that my way and my design is even better than Arctic or anyones for that matter.
I cant help myself.....I'm sorry, this is popping out and I have no control over it....
So if you think your design is better than Arctic "or anyone" why do you pick on Arctic? ;D ;) ;D ;)
(I really dont expect an answer. I just needed to be a little cheeky since you never answered my other question.)
I don't think I need to answer your question Anne. I think the answer you are looking for is all over in these posts, look very closely. I try hard to not be to far over peoples heads as sometimes the confusion created by my out there responses (which have alterior motives) put alot of people into confusion. What did you call it "jaded" well I have been called worse that's for sure!! In our never ending effort to improve ourselfs this mediom could be the best place to make contacts with people who may or may not utilize something we feel may be of benifit. But in order for that to happen a statement needs to be made.
Your probably more confused now sorry.
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I know I am Roger!!!
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Anne:
Thanks for the avatar comment. I thought it was Tigger from Poo. Either way he is preety cool!
That would be Pooh. Winne T. Pooh.
Poo is something completey differnt.
Poo from Tigger is something I wouldn't want to step in.
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Tom we have discussed this before and you know what it is going to take. I have serviced hundreds of tubs in the last few years, and only one Arctic, it's not because they don't break down, its because there just aren't any around. And untill there are at least a few around for customers to beat on and for me to repair. I just can't give them the respect they may, or may not deserve. I truly do wish there were hundreds of them around so I could see for myself.
There are 85,000 and counting... we hope there are more coming soon to a dealer near you.
"Didn't Yugo get an award once for inovation and economical design? And some value star thingy? (Disclaimer) I am in no way comparing Yugo to Arctic. It's about awards folks."
ROTFL. Touché! ;D
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[/quote]
I can completely eliminate heater use between filter cycles in temperatues down to 0 F. with nothing more than a 75 watt light bulb. and gain the 2-3 degrees back during filtration. So if I time my filter cycles to start an hour before my soak I only have heater use during long soaks on cold cold nights. I can cut down heater use even more during my soak with the pump on high but, I like a quiet soak on low.
[/quote]
Now I don't know this Tman122 from Adam and I haven't been here long enough to "learn" him, nor would I want to, but when he makes a statement about keeping 400 gallons of water hot on a 0 degree night with nothing more than a 75 watt bulb without anyone questioning the absurdity of that comment, well I don't get it.
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Yes it is interesting repeat that none of the industry types like Chas, Stevie, pkud, and others let Tman's statement go unchallenged. I've been waiting but alas, nothing. I'm sure the spa world would love to know how this is possible! Now before Roger jumps down my throat, I'm not saying it's impossible, but I think his idea warrants some additional questioning and dialogue.
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Yes it is interesting repeat that none of the industry types like Chas, Stevie, pkud, and others let Tman's statement go unchallenged. I've been waiting but alas, nothing. I'm sure the spa world would love to know how this is possible! Now before Roger jumps down my throat, I'm not saying it's impossible, but I think his idea warrants some additional questioning and dialogue.
Are you refering to the statement about awards? If so, my response.
Some awards are valid. Some are paid for. Some are political. Some are a mix. I sat on the NSPI Hot Tub Council and observed and participated in some award giving. I believe those were valid and political.
A consumer is going to have to figure out for herself what is valid.
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No, hottubdan, his comment about keeping his spa warm with a light bulb.
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Tman, I have no issue with your opinion of Arctic- opinions are personal, and it is neither my job nor my concern to try to change others' opinions. I dont care if you love or hate the company. But when you made a blanket statement that all consumers who bought a particular product have some sort of superiority complex, then I do get bent out of shape. Dont make assumptions.
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Good grief!
Brainlocker, I wish I could help you and give you some pertinent info. But, like you I'm still searching/waiting to purchase a tub.
All the people here are very helpful (until the sparring starts)and have taught me alot despite the fact I don't have a tub yet.
Anyway, my interest has peaked regarding Arctic spas. :-/
I don't think you mentioned price range in your previous posts. But, are the Sundance & Arctic spas you're looking at comparable in price?
I'm only 20-30 minues from Libertyville. I'm wondering if I should confuse myself more and go check them out.
Did you like the dealer?
Skellman
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Whoops, typo - 84,000 and counting.
Looked for Yugo awards, couldn't find any. A history of the Yugo here
http://www.histomobile.com/histomob/internet/179/histo02.htm
didn't mention any awards and I couldn't find any elsewhere.
Even if there aren't any Yugo awards, I am still chuckling over Roger's zinger.... :D
Wishing all a good week-end.
Tom
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There are 85,000 and counting... we hope there are more coming soon to a dealer near you.
;D
I haven't checked the website in awhile, but Arctic could do themselves a favor and change their dealer locater to show dealers more than 40 miles away. I would buy from a dealer who was 45 miles away, but their website doesn't want me to know about them. (I think the actual closest is 100 miles away)
Actually I just tried it again. There is a map feature that lets you look in your state. The first 3 times I tried it, it didn't work, but the 4th times a charm. I see I now have a dealer 80 miles away.
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Yes it is interesting repeat that none of the industry types like Chas, Stevie, pkud, and others let Tman's statement go unchallenged. I've been waiting but alas, nothing. I'm sure the spa world would love to know how this is possible! Now before Roger jumps down my throat, I'm not saying it's impossible, but I think his idea warrants some additional questioning and dialogue.
Then instead of trying to be a shmuck about it, why don't you just ask the man politley? ::)
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Temper, temper Stevie. As you yourself admitted, you are abrasive! I wonder what your attitude will be in another month when your daylight up there is really short?!
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Good grief!
All the people here are very helpful (until the sparring starts)and have taught me alot despite the fact I don't have a tub yet.
Anyway, my interest has peaked regarding Arctic spas. :-/
I don't think you mentioned price range in your previous posts. But, are the Sundance & Arctic spas you're looking at comparable in price?
I'm only 20-30 minues from Libertyville. I'm wondering if I should confuse myself more and go check them out.
Did you like the dealer?
Skellman
Hi skellman; I'm down in the western suburbs and an hour away from L'ville. Obviously I'm glad I went since the Arctic line does have some difference with the other majors. I would suggest you go to wet test and talk with one of the people there. They are all very nice and helpful. It's a very large store and I think they have every model filled so you could spend hours there trying every tub. My wife and I also looked at Sundance (among most of the major mfgs) and found them also to be a credible product; we focused on the Optima. A nice tub at $9500 but we liked the Tundra better and splurged and spent a couple grand more. We are jet freaks which is why our final 2 were the Tundra and the Artesian Piper Glen (check them out as well since they're also in L'ville). Good luck and should you have more specific questions about Arctic or this dealership, PM me. (Some people have short fuses when their name is mentioned.)
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Anne:
Thanks for the avatar comment. I thought it was Tigger from Poo. Either way he is preety cool!
I thought it was Tigger at first too, which I still would have complimented, but on closer inspection I thought it was Hobbes, as in Calvin and Hobbes, which I sorely miss from my child/teen-hood. My grandma and I used to laugh ourself silly reading those books.
brianlocker- were we any help to you at all? Are you afraid to ask anymore questions? ;) Dont be.
Really sorry for the off topic post, but that is indeed Tigger.
This is Hobbes:
(http://www.cs.princeton.edu/~aahobor/Lucy-Day/Images/Covers-50/Calvin-and-Hobbes.jpg)
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OMG, that is so obvious to me now. My apologies to both Tigger and Hobbes for the mix up.
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Now I don't know this Tman122 from Adam and I haven't been here long enough to "learn" him, nor would I want to, but when he makes a statement about keeping 400 gallons of water hot on a 0 degree night with nothing more than a 75 watt bulb without anyone questioning the absurdity of that comment, well I don't get it.
][/quote]
I said nothing about heating 400 gallons of water. I said "I can completely eliminate heater use bewteen filter cycles" The vessel water actualy drops 2-3 degrees between filter cycles. The key is to keep the equipment area from freezing or getting below the set point for freeze protection. If your filtering for 4 hours twice per day then you have an 8 hour stretch after a filter cycle that you have to maintain the temp inside of the cabinet equipment area.
I guess if you consider it absurd then it must be!! But maybe you get it now so just maybe it's not quite as absurd.
And I feel the same way about you. Why would I want to learn someone with such a closed mind. You don't seem to have anything to offer.
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Last year Bosco and I did a "study" on our tubs. Not a competative thing but I needed a water change and turned down the heater and was reporting about my heat loss. Bosco jumped in with I'll try that too. He had his tub filtering the way it always did and I had my circ pump running.
In the 2 1/2 days that I had turned down the temp, my tub lost about 16 degrees. In the same time Bosco's tub kept it's temp ... we both started at 102 if I remember correctly.
I was impressed that my tub only lost that much temp in 20 and 30 air temps. I was more impressed that Bosco's tub maintained it's temp, he's more north of me so I would think it was at least as cold if not colder.
I have to say based on Bosco's findings that I would consider looking at a Arctic if I ever decide to purchase another tub ... that is assuming that there would be a dealer close by, when I bought my tub there wasn't.
That's my 0.02
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I almost forgot about that expierement las year. I wonder if we can find the post or would it be deleted now???
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Hmm. More poetry.
No more poetry, he is gone.
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I own a Sundance Maxxus. I absolutely LOVE the tub. I feel it is very well made and pretty dang efficient. In fact we did not notice a single difference in our utility cost after we went on-line. Now regarding insulation I would have to go with the full foam. Being from ND I can really relate to being well insulated. Good Luck!
Yeah agree.. Sundance Maxxus is good. I like it...
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I just read through this whole thread..
Just wanted to say that I am extremely happy with the Artic Klondiker I purchased in 3/2014.
If anyone is interested, I have posted some pictures of my tub, in the area dedicated to such things.
Good hot tubing to everyone!