Hot Tub Forum
General => Beating a dead horse => Topic started by: hottubdan on December 15, 2007, 01:24:20 pm
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So, I have seen some discussion about horsepower in some other threads.
Please understand that horsepower is only one factor for the feel of the jets. Other factors:
Plumbing
# of jets
size of jets
size of orifaces
design of jets
As Vanguard mentioned there are no standards. Pump manufacturers will slap on whatever label spa manufacturer asks for. It is what is called market horse power. Bottom line, knowing the horsepower of pumps in spas is almost irrelevant.
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GPM is significant.....gallons per minute. HP is meaningless. Electrical motors are measured on RPM's, not HP. Isn't Horsepower calculated by cylinder depth and piston width, liters of displacement. Heck I don't remember but spa pumps are about flow rates, GPM's. Good question.....
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There is a story floating around that if you walk into a Rolls Royce dealership (do they still exist?) and ask how many horsepower their new cars have, the answer you get will be:
"Sufficient."
I don't want to sound quite that snooty about it, but I do think that Dan is right. The number on the brochure or in the owner's manual means absolutely nothing. Could be a different rating system, Breakdown Torque, or the pump could be fitted with an oversize or undersized impeller, uprated or down rated motor or any of a dozen other things which renders the simple HP rating worthless. The important thing is the jet action in the finished spa, as installed and used.
Try wet testing, and see if you have enough action from the jets - or if you don't.
That is what you will have to live with for the next two decades. The brochure will not likely be around for two weeks after delivery.
8-)
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Try wet testing, and see if you have enough action from the jets - or if you don't.
Although I've enjoyed the lessons I've been getting in what people think the horsepower ratings actually mean (or don't mean) you're absolutely correct. The only way to really tell is to get in and soak, and see how they feel.
I tested a Hot Springs tub that had 2 4.8hp (peak) motors and felt incredibly weak compared to a Jacuzzi with two 4.2hp motors. In this case, even though the Jacuzzi didn't have as much power, it felt so much better than it's competition....so clearly, specs aren't everything. Of course...the Jacuzzi also cost quite a bit more....so maybe it's not fair to compare it against the cheaper Hot Springs model.
I also tested a spa with 3 4HP pumps (it was a Phoenix) and I still liked the way the Jacuzzi's jets felt compared to it. On paper...once again, the Jacuzzi was inferior in HP specs, but when actually sitting in there....it felt much better than the Phoenix that supposedly had more power pumping through it.
Of course, none of those choices was able to compare to the comfort of the LA Spas model I actually bought (which I choose to equip with 3 5HP pumps.) I did test one of their 2 pump models, and it was good.....but the 3 pump was noticeably more powerful in the foot jets (and lounge seat) so ultimately....that's what I chose.
Now....we'll just have to see how often I sit out in that thing with all the jets on. :)
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I believe this is all true of vacuume cleaners as well...HP means nothing.
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Those who say horsepower means nothing are wrong.
Improperly applied, large horsepower pumps can be made to feel inadequate due to long piping runs and improper line sizing or poorly designed jet quantities or sizes. Just as smaller horsepower pumps utilizing properly sized lines and lengths combined with well engineered jets and air induction can be made to feel more than adequate.
The plain fact is that all other factors being equal, higher horsepower pumps simply have the ability to do more work (move larger volumes of water) than their lower horsepower counterparts.
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Josh......glad to hear you love your new LA Spas
I was not aware LA Spas had such powerful jets
How many gallons of water does your tub hold?
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I believe this is all true of vacuume cleaners as well...HP means nothing.
Except they use Amps. But its still the same deal. I really don't care how much power my vacuum cleaner draws. I just want to know its sucking the dirt out of my carpet.
The world would be a better place if manufacturers quit confusing consumers with horsepower.
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Those who say horsepower means nothing are wrong.
Improperly applied, large horsepower pumps can be made to feel inadequate due to long piping runs and improper line sizing or poorly designed jet quantities or sizes. Just as smaller horsepower pumps utilizing properly sized lines and lengths combined with well engineered jets and air induction can be made to feel more than adequate.
The plain fact is that all other factors being equal, higher horsepower pumps simply have the ability to do more work (move larger volumes of water) than their lower horsepower counterparts.
We don't mean that HP doesn't contribute. Primarily, we are saying that knowing the horsepower isn't going to be your deciding factor. It is just not how one should compare spas. Horsepower is part of the entire equation. For sure, if you had 1hp and 100 jets, you will probably not get much action, but if you have 2hp, you might like it better.
In the end, knowing what the horsepower of the pump on a spa has no effect on whether or not you like the feel of the jets.
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Half the time spent in my Vanguard is with the pumps off, just enjoying the heat and the silence...............so raspberries to ;D hp fanatics
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Those who say horsepower means nothing are wrong.
Improperly applied, large horsepower pumps can be made to feel inadequate due to long piping runs and improper line sizing or poorly designed jet quantities or sizes. Just as smaller horsepower pumps utilizing properly sized lines and lengths combined with well engineered jets and air induction can be made to feel more than adequate.
The plain fact is that all other factors being equal, higher horsepower pumps simply have the ability to do more work (move larger volumes of water) than their lower horsepower counterparts.
You just contradicted yourself. Your opening line says we are wrong, but then you go on to point out exactly what we have been saying: that HP numbers do not take into account the many variable such as good/poor plumbing, long/short plumbing lines, well designed/poorly designed jets, jet quantities and jet sizes.
You also mentioned air induction - some spas use a blower to force air into the jet system, and others use recycled heat as the air source - there are about as many variables as there are tub makers, times two.
Next - look at the line in your post where you said, "All other factors being equal, higher horsepower pumps simply have the ability to do more work..."
But in comparing different tubs, especially from different makers, all other factors are far from equal. Better tub makers us better designs on plumbing, jets, layout, plumbing size, and many other factors including hydraulic balance and flow characteristics. And if a system is well designed, it will flow just about as much water as the pump can put out, and simply adding a larger motor or motor/pump combination will not net higher flow. You would need to redesign the entire plumbing system, or add some jets, or up size some of the jets, or remove some plumbing restrictions, or increase filter area, or perhaps all of the above before the larger pump could move more water.
Sorry, but shopping by HP numbers on the brochure or web site simply will not tell you anything about how well or poorly a particular spa is going to work.
One more thing - three five horsepower pumps will require (750watts X 15= 11250 watts, which will take 52 amps at 220volts. To run just those three pumps, you need to have a 70 amp breaker feeding the spa. That means that no additional blowers or heaters could run at the same time. NEC only allows 80% of the breaker's rating, so 70 amps X .8 = 56 amps max. That may require a larger main electrical panel in your home!
But relax, I have repaired plenty of spas which have three pumps labeled as "5HP" and they are actually 3HP pumps with over sized impellers, or some other combination - but they are NOT truly Five Horsepower pumps.
The rating plate on the motor will prove it. In each of the cases replacing the motors with the same amp/voltage required buying 3 HP motors. In fact, recently I replaced two bad motors in a spa which had three pumps with 5HP stickers on them - and one of them was only a 1.5 HP two-speed for heating/filtering. It had a completely different motor, the pump housing was smaller, the plumbing was smaller, needless to say the impeller was smaller, and yet it had it's very own "5HP" sticker just like it's big brothers. I looked at the rating plates on the bad motors, ordered new wet end pumps accordingly, and the new pump/motor combos were 3HP with 2" plumbing. The spa worked exactly as it did when new.
So again, if the customer shopped and bought because the maker told them they had three five horse motors, they were misled. If they shopped and bought because they turned one of these tubs on in the showroom and were pleased by the amount of water moving - and if that held true to the spa which was delivered to their home, then once again I say, the HP claims and/or markings on the brochure and even the tub mean nothing.
OK, one more thing - if you can get good jet action out of smaller pump/motor combos, why wouldn't you? I mean, why pay the extra energy bill if you don't have to? Most of my customers report that they run the jets at reduced power - that is easily accomplished in HotSpring and Tiger River tubs - and I haven't had folks complain about lack of power at the jets.
Yes, some have come in and put their hand in front of the jets and reported that it wasn't as strong as brand X they had just looked at. And they were right! I have sold Caldera, and they can be set to put out far more kick at the jets than HS and many other tubs. But long-term owners tell me that too much power at the jets is just too much power. It is not comfortable, and it not used in reality, at least not on a regular basis. HS puts in a few extra-large jets for when you need the extra punch, but I think they have come up with a pretty good system using far less power overall. Even my Caldera owners tell me that they move diverters and adjust jet settings to mellow out the jets for regular use.
So again, I say to shoppers - wet test, or at least stick and hand/arm in front of working jets in a running spa to determine if you are going to get enough power from the jets.
8-)
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To All,
What Chas has said is correct although perhaps a little long winded ;) A quick and easy look at the motor HP to pump GPM ratio would go like this.
Say you have two different spas that both have one 200 GPM pump. Spa "A" has a well designed low head or back pressure plumbing layout. That spa may only require a 2.5 HP motor to move the 200 GPM the pump is capable of delivering. Spa "B" has a poorly designed plumbing layout, higher head pressure with a lot of bends and elbows in the system and a lot of small jets. That spa would require 4.5 HP to deliver the same 200 GPM.
Its all about the pump GPM and the plumbing or head pressure in the spa, the HP is some what irrelevant. Motor performance is measured in amps and that can be converted to HP. Pumps are measured in GPM only. The term "4.8 HP pump" makes no sense. The correct way to say it is 200 GPM pump with a 4.8 HP motor.
Just my 2 cents worth
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Chas,
Excellent points, and you're right. "All things being equal" is non-existant in the hot tub world. I guess simply put, more horsepower gives you greater "potential" for greater pressure, water movement, etc..
Joe
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To All,
What Chas has said is correct although perhaps a little long winded ;)
A LITTLE!? Wow, I just looked it over - I guess I have battled this for a long time.
Sorry to get so verbose....
Breathe Chas, breathe.
8-)
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could one also make many of the same "horse power means nothing"
arguments about cars?......because many cars are designed different
and some may be "designed better"?
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could one also make many of the same "horse power means nothing"
arguments about cars?......because many cars are designed different
and some may be "designed better"?
I highly doubt it. Like hot tubs, comparing the two options is just not comparing apples to apples. It's all about what kind of car each particular person wants to drive.
I can totally understand why proponents of a brand of hot tub that happens to have less horsepower might try to make arguments against tubs with more power or more jets. It's the same reason dealers who sell tubs that lack "Feature X" tend to point out how awful "Feature X" is and try to explain why "Feature Y" is better.
These sorts of statements shouldn't carry any weight in anyone's buying decisions. They're far too common and their main purpose is to confuse the buyer and sway them towards one choice or another.
If you want to find out whether or not more horsepower matters to you, all you have to do is Wet Test and see what feels the best. For me, sticking my hand in the tub doesn't really do it. I needed to get in the tub....see how the jets felt. Until I did that, pretty much every hot tub was the same.
People can list all the "facts" they want to try to explain why horsepower doesn't matter...but in my tests, I discovered I liked the feeling of a tub that happened to have more jets and more horsepower than some others that I tested. So I bought it. I guess to me....it mattered after all.
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Back in the sixties, every macho male shopping for a car was very much interested in HP. Then, cars were $3,000 and you had 3 years to pay it off. Today, NOBODY even bothers to lift the hood, much less ask about HP, and we pay $30,000.
What is horsepower???????? It means something to sombody and that is what we have here, but is it "marketing" HP, "peak performance" HP, or "delivered force" HP.
Marketing HP is what Chas refers to in his example. It can be whatever you want to print on the label. There are NO horsepower police here to monitor the industry. 5HP pumps, expecially 3 of them, would make your electric meter spin like crazy. That does not go over well with the efficency minded. If you go to a motor shop and try to buy a 5 HP motor, put it next to your Hot Tub 5 HP, you will understand that they are not comparable. This HP is fantasy, but it makes an impact with consumers and it could be a material fact in the consumers decision.
"Peak HP" is the initial force at which the motor operates without a load or friction to reduce its' output. Volts x Amps = Watts and watts consumed determines horsepower.
Every motor label has a SF rating usually around 10% which is what is lost to load, friction and work performance, etc. This is deducted from the "Peak HP" to give us what is NORMALLY referred to as HP.
This battle has persisted for more than 15 years or longer and if you think the industry would want to do something about it, you would see flow meters on every spa leaving the factory.
Guess what, you would even know when to clean your filter because of restricted GPM read out on the meter, Imagine that.
Marketing HP has proven itself to be effective for manufacturers in a highly competative field, such as this, especially during shopping comparisons by shoppers. You would be absolutely amazed about what "shoppers" think about when looking at Hot Tubs. The first thing you will here from the male shopper is, "how much horsepower do your have, and that is always followed by "How much is this one?", and most often in the first 5 minutes in the store.
Some of us may consider it to be deceptive, but we alone can not chage an industry. I suppose the Hot Tub manufacturers could discuss it among themselves. One company could even reveal their "TRUE" horsepower, but do you think their sales will go up or down in the competative environment.
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I highly doubt it. Like hot tubs, comparing the two options is just not comparing apples to apples. It's all about what kind of car each particular person wants to drive.
I can totally understand why proponents of a brand of hot tub that happens to have less horsepower might try to make arguments against tubs with more power or more jets. It's the same reason dealers who sell tubs that lack "Feature X" tend to point out how awful "Feature X" is and try to explain why "Feature Y" is better.
These sorts of statements shouldn't carry any weight in anyone's buying decisions. They're far too common and their main purpose is to confuse the buyer and sway them towards one choice or another.
If you want to find out whether or not more horsepower matters to you, all you have to do is Wet Test and see what feels the best. For me, sticking my hand in the tub doesn't really do it. I needed to get in the tub....see how the jets felt. Until I did that, pretty much every hot tub was the same.
People can list all the "facts" they want to try to explain why horsepower doesn't matter...but in my tests, I discovered I liked the feeling of a tub that happened to have more jets and more horsepower than some others that I tested. So I bought it. I guess to me....it mattered after all.
I don't really think you understood what you have read in this topic. You seem to take the bits and pieces that you want and leave the rest.
A. It is coincidence that you picked a tub that you like and claims to has more horsepower. And like they said... it is still just a sticker. Whether you have two or three pumps none of those motors are truly 5hp.
B. Your model comes with 2.5 hp motors with 4.8hp break down torque. That does not make them 5hp motors- no matter how you look at it. If you like the tub great for you ... but it doesn't mean that horse power makes a difference. What the Professionals on this site are saying is factual... but you keep bringing it back to your tub. The only authority you have on this is what your sales person told you... They said they are 5 hp... You liked the way they felt.. So therefore in your mind it makes it true. For all you know your spa could actually have 3 1.5 hp motors.... and it is just piped efficiently... making it feel stronger... but the only way the salesmen can put it in terms for the monkey to by the banana is to say it is high horse power.
So yes josh... You are happy with your tub I get that... It has strong jets... but that does not take away from all the experience on this site saying that HP doesn't matter. What your point proves is that a sales person can add to their sales pitch by calling a 2.5 hp motor 5 hp (which I noticed on a HS brand you stated 4.8... never rounding that one up like your preferred brand) I could sell a handful or crap and call it chocolate… but its still just crap. You have sat on this site and criticized anyone that showed any bias towards any tub... but I have seen quite a bit of that from you in terms of this HP issue. The difference is you don’t have the experience to substantiate it.
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Back in the sixties, every macho male shopping for a car was very much interested in HP. Then, cars were $3,000 and you had 3 years to pay it off. Today, NOBODY even bothers to lift the hood, much less ask about HP, and we pay $30,000.
That's sort of a silly statement.
There are dozens of models of car that are still all about horsepower and torque today. The Viper has risen from 350-600 horses over the years. Vettes have been trying to match it by climbing hundreds of horses as well. People also add thousands of dollars in parts to standard cars to turn them into racing machines that can hit 100mph faster than most cars go 0-60.
Now, I'll grant you that not a lot of people care how many horses their VW Jetta or Honda Civic has, but that's a totally different kind of car (and a different driving experience).
Hot tubs are the same way. There are standard models and models with all the bells and whistles. For many folks, a few seats and a few jets are all they need. For others, they want full surround sound speakers and a 42" Plasma TV that pops out of the side.
That wide spectrum of choices and differences is a GOOD thing....and I don't blame companies for creating stickers and spec-sheets that call out their particular bragging rights.
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Someone needs to lighten up. First of all Josh clearly stated his opinions are based on his experience. He is a consumer and as such has nothing to gain by trying to sway other members here. Secondly, being a salesperson in NO WAY qualifies you as an expert. Period. As a matter of fact most consumers would describe the vast majority of salespeople as, in your words, "trying to pass off a handful of crap as chocolate." Nothing new there.
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Someone needs to lighten up. First of all Josh clearly stated his opinions are based on his experience. He is a consumer and as such has nothing to gain by trying to sway other members here. Secondly, being a salesperson in NO WAY qualifies you as an expert. Period. As a matter of fact most consumers would describe the vast majority of salespeople as, in your words, "trying to pass off a handful of crap as chocolate." Nothing new there.
Don't know if you were talking to me.... but I clearly stated they were professionals...and experienced... I did not once call anyone an expert. ;)
What I was trying to point out to Josh is that it is all about perception.
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I tested a Hot Springs tub that had 2 4.8hp (peak) motors and felt incredibly weak compared to a Jacuzzi with two 4.2hp motors. In this case, even though the Jacuzzi didn't have as much power, it felt so much better than it's competition....so clearly, specs aren't everything. Of course...the Jacuzzi also cost quite a bit more....so maybe it's not fair to compare it against the cheaper Hot Springs model.
Which Hot Spring models did you test??
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could one also make many of the same "horse power means nothing"
arguments about cars?......because many cars are designed different
and some may be "designed better"?
I have given this a lot of thought - thanks for bringing it up.
Many years ago the Gummit mandated new ways of advertising/selling cars. They required that auto makers begin using the numbers which could be measured at the wheels on the exact model of car. No more engineering tricks which basically said, "if this engine was run in a lab under perfect conditions it should make XX HP." It had to be real-world, and it had to apply to the exact model with the exact options you were looking at - in other words, the car, not just the engine. If you doubt that, go look at some brochures or read magazine reviews of new cars. They list the HP ratings with auto transmissions, manual transmission, deluxe models, sport models, and some may have still other ratings if you add a towing package or whatever.
It would be great if there was a number in the Tub industry which was as accurate at showing the actual functional power of a tub as it sits in your yard. The closest I can come is to offer this: put your hands in front of the jets in a running spa of the same make and model you are looking at.
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I don't really think you understood what you have read in this topic. You seem to take the bits and pieces that you want and leave the rest.
Well, yeah. I don't have an opinion on every single point someone has brought up in this topic, I've just been responding to the stuff I do have an opinion on.
A. It is coincidence that you picked a tub that you like and claims to has more horsepower. And like they said... it is still just a sticker. Whether you have two or three pumps none of those motors are truly 5hp.
I don't believe that it's coincidence at all. I picked the spa I picked because it provided a vastly superiror experience to anything else I tested. Several of the tubs were close to one another, and had several good points each....but this one blew them all out of the water. What was so great about it? For one, it felt like it had more power. For two, the positioning and number of jets. After that was the layout and finally....the "accent" options I added to it.
Regarding the horsepower....if it's "Just a sticker"...then how there was such a big difference in how powerful the tub felt to me? If I had to guess, I'd say it was because there were more pumps pushing more water through more jets faster than the other models I tested. I could be wrong.
B. Your model comes with 2.5 hp motors with 4.8hp break down torque. That does not make them 5hp motors- no matter how you look at it. If you like the tub great for you ... but it doesn't mean that horse power makes a difference. What the Professionals on this site are saying is factual... but you keep bringing it back to your tub. The only authority you have on this is what your sales person told you... They said they are 5 hp... You liked the way they felt.. So therefore in your mind it makes it true. For all you know your spa could actually have 3 1.5 hp motors.... and it is just piped efficiently... making it feel stronger... but the only way the salesmen can put it in terms for the monkey to by the banana is to say it is high horse power.
I'm not disagreeing with anything in the quote above, nor I am not claiming to be some kind of authority on horsepower. I'm not claiming I have some special facts (other than what's on the spec sheets) that scientifically prove that the hot tub I bought has more horsepower than another tub I tested. The only thing I've said in this thread is what certain tubs felt like to me.
Other people are the ones making all the statements about what horsepower does and doesn't mean.
So yes josh... You are happy with your tub I get that... It has strong jets... but that does not take away from all the experience on this site saying that HP doesn't matter.
I'm not saying they're wrong. I'm just not saying that I believe they're right. I think the real answer lies in the middle somewhere. I believe bigger (or more) pumps can obviously effect the performance of a tub.....but I also believe that if it's designed well, something with less horsepower can still perform really well.
What your point proves is that a sales person can add to their sales pitch by calling a 2.5 hp motor 5 hp (which I noticed on a HS brand you stated 4.8... never rounding that one up like your preferred brand) I could sell a handful or crap and call it chocolate… but its still just crap.
I didn't round either one up. I took the data from the Spec Sheet on Hotspring.com and the data from LASpas.com when I was posting my example. The LA Spas site says their pumps are 5HP max, with 2.5 continous. The Hot Springs one says 4.8 max with 2.5 continous. The Heet I bought has 3 pumps. The Vista I looked at had 2. If you check the websites...you'll find the same numbers I did. Perhaps they're all lies....(or perhaps just the LA Spas site is all lies). I have no idea, they're just the numbers I used when I was talking about how much power one tub said it had compared to another one. I wasn't rounding anything off to support an opinion.
Truth is, horsepower numbers didn't factor into my search at all. It was all about comfort for me. The numbers were just an afterthought and something we've discussed here.
You have sat on this site and criticized anyone that showed any bias towards any tub... but I have seen quite a bit of that from you in terms of this HP issue. The difference is you don’t have the experience to substantiate it.
If people want to say horsepower means nothing and that the only reason that tub felt better to me is because it was "designed better"....I'm not sure that's factual, but I won't say it's impossible. Personally, I'd assume that it just had more pumps and that made more water move around. But what do I know? I'm no expert. :)
Either way, I'm not attempting to be biased or prove that the Heet was better than the Vista or something. Both tubs are good, one was just better for ME.
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Don't know if you were talking to me.... but I clearly stated they were professionals...and experienced... I did not once call anyone an expert. ;)
What I was trying to point out to Josh is that it is all about perception.
Experienced salespeople. Nothing necessarily whatsoever to do with expertise. Therefore their opinions may carry no more weight than the average consumer, and in a lot of cases less than an educated one.
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Which Hot Spring models did you test??
I tried out an Envoy and the Vista. I also had the Grandee and Vanguard on my list...but ruled the latter two out after I decided to go for a model with a lounger. Of the loungers I tested....neither was "the one" although I liked both a lot. The back massagers in the hot springs tubs (up and down) were unique among any tub I tested (and by far my favorite thing about that brand). I loved the Wireless stereo receiver and pop up speakers so much that if I would have bought a Hot Springs tub, I would have had one installed.
Someone needs to lighten up. First of all Josh clearly stated his opinions are based on his experience. He is a consumer and as such has nothing to gain by trying to sway other members here. Secondly, being a salesperson in NO WAY qualifies you as an expert. Period. As a matter of fact most consumers would describe the vast majority of salespeople as, in your words, "trying to pass off a handful of crap as chocolate." Nothing new there.
Thanks Repeat Offender. I'm certainly not trying to pass my opinions or personal experience off as anything but. If anything....I'm trying to understand why people think horsepower means nothing. Personally....it seems like common sense to me that more horsepower or more pumps would simply move more water around. To hear otherwise is sort of suprising to me, but I'm not saying I know better or anything.
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If anything....I'm trying to understand why people think horsepower means nothing. Personally....it seems like common sense to me that more horsepower or more pumps would simply move more water around. To hear otherwise is sort of suprising to me, but I'm not saying I know better or anything.
Josh,
A good example of this is the plant I work at, we have 3, 8000 gpm pumps, 2 are 600 hp and one is 750 hp. This is largely due to the fact that the 2 600 hp pumps are vertical turbine and the 750 hp pump is a double end suction split case. The vertical turbine is a lot more efficient and uses multiple impellers to increase flow rates. While all 3 are 8000 gpm the design of the pump allows 2 of them to use a lower hp motor
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Josh,
A good example of this is the plant I work at, we have 3, 8000 gpm pumps, 2 are 600 hp and one is 750 hp. This is largely due to the fact that the 2 600 hp pumps are vertical turbine and the 750 hp pump is a double end suction split case. The vertical turbine is a lot more efficient and uses multiple impellers to increase flow rates. While all 3 are 8000 gpm the design of the pump allows 2 of them to use a lower hp motor
I'm not sure I understand how that example applies to this particular topic. I don't think anyone is going to argue about whether or not you can squeeze good performance out of something that has less horsepower if it's engineered properly. People here are talking about whether or not horsepower matters at all.
As far as hot tubs go.....if a tub with more pumps (or higher horsepower pumps) feels better (and feels more powerful) than one with fewer pumps (or fewer horsepower) doesn't that mean that in that particular instance....it's possible that it's benefitting from that extra power?
Or do you think it just means that particular tub is engineered better...and that the amount of pumps (or horsepower of pumps) doesn't mean anything?
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Josh,
A good example of this is the plant I work at, we have 3, 8000 gpm pumps, 2 are 600 hp and one is 750 hp. This is largely due to the fact that the 2 600 hp pumps are vertical turbine and the 750 hp pump is a double end suction split case. The vertical turbine is a lot more efficient and uses multiple impellers to increase flow rates. While all 3 are 8000 gpm the design of the pump allows 2 of them to use a lower hp motor
That was a very good way to explain it.... I still don't think he got it. :o
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As far as hot tubs go.....if a tub with more pumps (or higher horsepower pumps) feels better (and feels more powerful) than one with fewer pumps (or fewer horsepower) doesn't that mean that in that particular instance....it's possible that it's benefitting from that extra power?
In that example, sure, if it feels better then the extra pump/horsepwoer may be worth it.
The problem is there are a many spa makers out there that do not efficiently design their spas and the extra HP/pump really isn't a benefit over another spa that may have less HP but is better designed. This is why a wet test is so important. Extra HP guarantees nothing but extra energy costs until the wet test shows its worth it.
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Extra HP guarantees nothing but extra energy costs until the wet test shows its worth it.
That is it! That is the perfect summation of the point we have been trying to make.
Thanks.
8-)
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Extra HP guarantees nothing but extra energy costs until the wet test shows its worth it.
That is it! That is the perfect summation of the point we have been trying to make.
Thanks.
8-)
I'm curious. Is there anyone here arguing that point?
I know I'm not. Never was.
I think the original discussion arose because I said I wet tested one tub that had more horsepower than another (and that I thought I could really feel a difference). I liked the difference so much I bought the tub. Clearly in that case...the extra HP was worth it.
When I said that, a few people started saying "Horsepower doesn't mean anything!" and trying to point out how maybe the less powerful tubs are somehow "designed better". Shortly afterwards, this topic started.
I'm not sure anyone in this topic has offered any insight into the original discussion. People have made plenty of great points about horsepower itself....but I'm still not sure anything's been said that offers any more insight into the original horsepower question that kicked off the topic.
Does extra Horsepower ever make a difference?
Is it just something that's mostly used as a selling point?
Are the numbers all lies?
IMHO....Horsepower can be used as a selling point...but during my testing, it seemed that sometimes a little extra provides a measurable difference in performance.
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I'm curious. Is there anyone here arguing that point?
I know I'm not. Never was.
We're making valid points in a thread started to discuss this very topic. I'm not sure why that is an issue for you.
I'm not sure anyone in this topic has offered any insight into the original discussion. People have made plenty of great points about horsepower itself....but I'm still not sure anything's been said that offers any more insight into the original horsepower question that kicked off the topic.
Funny, I thought there has been some very helpful posts for people who may be shopping and want to know why some seem to have twice the horsepower and why some dealers may focus in on HP while others will give a sales presentation and not even bring it up in discussion.
Does extra Horsepower ever make a difference?
Is it just something that's mostly used as a selling point?
Are the numbers all lies?
IMHO....Horsepower can be used as a selling point...but during my testing, it seemed that sometimes a little extra provides a measurable difference in performance.
Horsepower is certainly used in sales presentations as a selling point. Not everyone uses it with their fingers crossed behind their backs though.
The fact that a company would design a spa with two pumps and yet have an option to add a third pump is a telling fact. The design with two pumps meets peoples needs most of the time but they know they can appeal to those who want more by allowing a third pump. Is it needed? Probably not too often but it makes some extra sales. Its mostly about selling spas to the Tim Allen "grrrr, more HP please" crowd but its a "whatever makes the sale" approach and it makes the seller and the buyer happy so ...
Heck, there is a nut who sells spas over the internet who puts a couple huge pumps in his spas that require a 70A service. It basically removes back hair and makes the power meter spin wildly but he finds some who think that's what they want.
A friend of mine just bought a new truck last wekened. I don't remember the specs but he pretty much needs a ladder to get into it (he's about 5'5", 150 lbs) and it sounds like a power plant when he fires it up (diesel of course). A few of us joked that its his "compensator" toy. He drives it to work every day and it sits in the parking lot while he's in the office. Its all about "want" for him, not "need". If he bought a spa I guarantee he'd pay close attention to HP specs and the BHP guys would have him thinking "wow, 5 HP pumps, grrr" and he'd be wanting to add 2 extra pumps if he could.
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I tested a Hot Springs tub that had 2 4.8hp (peak) motors and felt incredibly weak compared to a Jacuzzi with two 4.2hp motors. In this case, even though the Jacuzzi didn't have as much power, it felt so much better than it's competition....so clearly, specs aren't everything. Of course...the Jacuzzi also cost quite a bit more....so maybe it's not fair to compare it against the cheaper Hot Springs model.
Josh, the HS models typically sell for more than similarly equipped Jacuzzi spas--at least in my area they do. I'm surprised that in your area the HS spas were "cheaper" than Jacuzzi.
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We're making valid points in a thread started to discuss this very topic. I'm not sure why that is an issue for you.
I don't have any issues with any of the valid points in this thread. ;)
Speaking of which...you just made quite a few that had a lot to do with the topic, which I will reply to now:
Funny, I thought there has been some very helpful posts for people who may be shopping and want to know why some seem to have twice the horsepower and why some dealers may focus in on HP while others will give a sales presentation and not even bring it up in discussion.
I think the dealers who sell tubs with less horsepower didn't use it as a selling point because...well, they have less horsepower. Most spa places I went to weren't exactly keen on pointing out the shortcomings of their product (they usually spent time talking about the shortcomings of everyone else's product). The places that had more jets pointed out they had more jets. The places that had more than 2 pumps talked about how they offered 3 pumps. Everyone talked about their cool features....and when I'd ask about a cool feature I saw somewhere else....they'd generally tell me why it sucked.
As I've mentioned before, that was my least favorite thing about shopping for a hot tub.
The fact that a company would design a spa with two pumps and yet have an option to add a third pump is a telling fact. The design with two pumps meets peoples needs most of the time but they know they can appeal to those who want more by allowing a third pump. Is it needed? Probably not too often but it makes some extra sales. Its mostly about selling spas to the Tim Allen "grrrr, more HP please" crowd but its a "whatever makes the sale" approach and it makes the seller and the buyer happy so ...
Heck, there is a nut who sells spas over the internet who puts a couple huge pumps in his spas that require a 70A service. It basically removes back hair and makes the power meter spin wildly but he finds some who think that's what they want.
I think the companies that cater to people like that are smart.
Once you've found a tub you like, why NOT get a few options to make it even better? For me, that third pump made a difference. I sat in one with two pumps and one with three in the same shop, and noticed a measurable difference in comfort...which was number one on my "Spa criteria list". That's why I got it.
The places that install optional stuff like that are just catering to those folks that might want some choices beyond what's standard. This is industry wide, not just limited to places with extra pumps. Think about all the companies that offer TVs in the tubs, stereos with wireless iPod hookups, a couple of extra LED lights, waterfalls and fountains. All this stuff is useless for the most part....but there are people out there that think it's cool. I admit that I'm one of them.
Its all about "want" for him, not "need". If he bought a spa I guarantee he'd pay close attention to HP specs and the BHP guys would have him thinking "wow, 5 HP pumps, grrr" and he'd be wanting to add 2 extra pumps if he could.
Do you think there's something wrong with that sort of mentality?
As a follow up: Do most of us really "need" a hot tub? Unless your physician is recommending it for physical therapy and it's covered by your health plan, these are generally luxury items we buy for relaxation, comfort and recreation. When my old tub broke, I didn't need a new one, (could have had it fixed) but I shopped around, picked the tub I thought was the most comfortable, and made a deal. When I bought it....THAT'S when I added all the extra stuff. I didn't buy it because of the extra stuff. Every dealer had some sort of optional thing I could add on to trick out my spa.
This is all supposed to be fun....right? :)
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Josh, the HS models typically sell for more than similarly equipped Jacuzzi spas--at least in my area they do. I'm surprised that in your area the HS spas were "cheaper" than Jacuzzi.
In the interest of full disclosure, I'm talking sticker prices. I didn't go back and try to wheel and deal with either dealership because neither one had a tub that was in my top two choices. The Jacuzzi 470 would have been number 3....but I got a good enough price on my first choice that I didn't need to explore the backups any further.
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I think the dealers who sell tubs with less horsepower didn't use it as a selling point because...well, they have less horsepower. Most spa places I went to weren't exactly keen on pointing out the shortcomings of their product (they usually spent time talking about the shortcomings of everyone else's product).
Less HP than who? Sundance, Hot Spring, Marquis, Caldera, D1, and Jacuzzi all sell spas with similar HP. They are also the leaders in the industry relative to spas sold (and quality IMO). I hardly think it is a "shortcoming" the way they design their spas but more that some of the secondary players in the industry may have decided that one way to grab a slice of the pie is to market more HP or optional pumps or jets a la carte (the “any way you want it” way is a recipe for quality issues but that’s another subject). I don't blame them as they need a sales pitch and it works with a lot of people but it's certainly not an issue that the top guys are underpowering their spas LOL.
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Gotta remember many people do not wet test spas. They go by what the salesman pitch and company. Some sales people have stretched the HP as sales pitches and it works on many people. I have many customers that come in and the first thing asked is HP and nothing on how the spa is designed to flow the water. They wanna hear power and how many jets. I believe HP does help the flow of water but it also depends on how the spa is designed.
We have 3 spas that have a 3rd pump. All these spas are larger and more jets. The third pump was designed and plummed for thee dome and foot jets only.
Therapeutic is suppose to be calming and soothing massage, not a body beating...lol
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Less HP than who? Sundance, Hot Spring, Marquis, Caldera, D1, and Jacuzzi all sell spas with similar HP. They are also the leaders in the industry relative to spas sold (and quality IMO). I hardly think it is a "shortcoming" the way they design their spas but more that some of the secondary players in the industry may have decided that one way to grab a slice of the pie is to market more HP or optional pumps or jets a la carte (the “any way you want it” way is a recipe for quality issues but that’s another subject). I don't blame them as they need a sales pitch and it works with a lot of people but it's certainly not an issue that the top guys are underpowering their spas LOL.
If you want to call extra power a gimmick designed by a smaller company to cater to a certain market, I'll agree with you. That's how smaller companies get bigger. They look at what the leaders are doing, and if they want to become a leader, they need to match that performance, then do more. Google used to be a little nothing search engine compared to giants like Yahoo, Alta Vista and Lycos, but they made a competitive product and now they're on top. Most of the other leaders from 10 years ago are barely also-rans now.
I think the folks that are catering to folks like me (who like "More") are smart. I didn't buy my spa because of the sales pitch. I bought it because of the wet test. It was a better experience than any tub I sat in. I largely ignored the sales pitch everywhere I went, because I got tired of listening to every dealer tell me why other spas sucked. I decided to wet test, and let the spas speak for themselves, then I bought the one that felt the best to me.
People can argue until they're blue in the face that extra horsepower doesn't matter, but in my research, it sure seems like it did. I think the only way for other folks to see if it truly matters to them is to go jump in a bunch of tubs and find out for themselves. Internet theories can only get you so far.
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Gotta remember many people do not wet test spas. They go by what the salesman pitch and company. Some sales people have stretched the HP as sales pitches and it works on many people. I have many customers that come in and the first thing asked is HP and nothing on how the spa is designed to flow the water. They wanna hear power and how many jets. I believe HP does help the flow of water but it also depends on how the spa is designed.
We have 3 spas that have a 3rd pump. All these spas are larger and more jets. The third pump was designed and plummed for thee dome and foot jets only.
Therapeutic is suppose to be calming and soothing massage, not a body beating...lol
What brand do you sell?
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Heck, there is a nut who sells spas over the internet who puts a couple huge pumps in his spas that require a 70A service. It basically removes back hair and makes the power meter spin wildly but he finds some who think that's what they want.
When the basic design of a tub's insualtion is dependent on heat generated by the pumps, what do you expect? Smaller, cooler running plumbing? ::)
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When the basic design of a tub's insualtion is dependent on heat generated by the pumps, what do you expect? Smaller, cooler running plumbing? ::)
I heard some spa dealer (I think Arctic) saying that the heat of their pumps kept the water at temperature, even in the coldest winters. They pride themselves on barely needing their heater.
Pumps take energy, Heaters take energy......I think anyone who claims to have an "energy efficient" tub is just being silly. No matter what your design is, you're still just a big bowl for hundreds of gallons of water that needs to reach (and maintain) temperatures of over 100 degrees.
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Funny that was brought up. The most efficient pumps are those that convert most of the energy they consume into motion, while the least efficient are those that convert most of their energy consumed into waste heat. Of course that salesmans pitch will be how that "waste" heat all magically goes back into the water.
You can't win....
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If you want to call extra power a gimmick designed by a smaller company to cater to a certain market, I'll agree with you. That's how smaller companies get bigger. They look at what the leaders are doing, and if they want to become a leader, they need to match that performance, then do more. Google used to be a little nothing search engine compared to giants like Yahoo, Alta Vista and Lycos, but they made a competitive product and now they're on top. Most of the other leaders from 10 years ago are barely also-rans now.
Pumps take energy, Heaters take energy......I think anyone who claims to have an "energy efficient" tub is just being silly.
I guess I'll have to defer to your vast spa knowledge. I didn't realize how companies work in this industry, how spas are made and marketed or that "energy efficient" spas are silly. ;);D
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I believe HP does help the flow of water but it also depends on how the spa is designed.
Powernoodle,
I'm not picking on you but your statement goes exactly to the point I was trying to make.
Horsepower has nothing to do with the movement of water at all, the pumps internal inpellor and the design of the plumbing system are the only things that contribute to the ease of water movement.
Please remember that the pump and the motor are two different things. Motors are rated by voltage and amps and that can be converted to horsepower. Pumps are rated by flow rates and pressure the two have very little to do with one another, other then the higher the head pressure on the pump the more horsepower it will take to achieve the max flow rate along a pumps curve.
Josh,
I'm glad you purchased a tub that you enjoy and I do not mean to say that there is anything wrong with the tub you bought. I'm just trying to clarify a marketing strategy that the industry is using that makes very little sense
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I guess I'll have to defer to your vast spa knowledge. I didn't realize how companies work in this industry, how spas are made and marketed or that "energy efficient" spas are silly. ;);D
No need to get defensive. The concept of spa operation and construction is well within the grasp of anyone with average mechanical aptitude. I'm sure there are even some salepeople that qualify.
Josh seems more than equal to the task. I'm sure if I approached my local spa guru and quized him on thermal efficiencies, service factors, brake and shaft horespower I'd get this glazed look and he'd quickly defer me to his crackerjack techie...who just happens to be on his lunch break.
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No need to get defensive.
Nah, that post wasn't meant to be defensive at all. I realize a lot of people get caught up on HP so that part is understandable but when he said "I think anyone who claims to have an "energy efficient" tub is just being silly.", I actually laughed. To think that there isn't a difference in energy efficiency is so absurd its funny.
Hopefully he won't be one of the people who come home with a spa that has some fancy name for their insulation method only to find out that theory of how to insulate and how well the manufacturer designs and implements it too often are two very different things. We've all seen many people come here a few months after getting their spa to get advice on how to lower the bill the just got floored with.
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Nah, that post wasn't meant to be defensive at all. I realize a lot of people get caught up on HP so that part is understandable but when he said "I think anyone who claims to have an "energy efficient" tub is just being silly.", I actually laughed. To think that there isn't a difference in energy efficiency is so absurd its funny.
This is what I said:
Pumps take energy, Heaters take energy......I think anyone who claims to have an "energy efficient" tub is just being silly. No matter what your design is, you're still just a big bowl for hundreds of gallons of water that needs to reach (and maintain) temperatures of over 100 degrees.
I stand by every word of that.
Any hot tub you buy is going to jack your power bill regardless of what some slick talking salesman tells you about it being "energy efficient". Over the years, I've seen dozens of similar "energy efficient" claims made about chest freezers, refrigerators and air conditioners....and it doesn't take a genius to realize that's all BS too.
They may be efficient compared to some other model of the same appliance, but what happens when you plug any of those things in? The next month...boom...you'll notice it on the bill. A hot tub is no different....no matter what the sales pitch says. Heating water to 102 degrees or so (then keeping it there) takes a lot of juice. You'll notice it on the bill, no matter how "efficient" it is supposed to be. That's not even taking into account all the hours you spend out there each month with the jets on.
I'm not arguing that one hot tub may be insulated in such a way that it might save you a few cents per use, and a few bucks per month over another brand of hot tub. That's probably true. I'm just saying that it's only a matter of a couple of bucks, and nothing to get excited about. In the grand scheme of things, they're all HUGE power suckers. They cost more to operate each month than just about any appliance in your home (except maybe the AC in summertime).
Calling any of them "efficient" is just a stupid sales gimmick.
Hopefully he won't be one of the people who come home with a spa that has some fancy name for their insulation method only to find out that theory of how to insulate and how well the manufacturer designs and implements it too often are two very different things. We've all seen many people come here a few months after getting their spa to get advice on how to lower the bill the just got floored with.
I doubt it. My old hot tub ran almost every day for the past few years. I'm pretty used to the power consumption of a hot tub by now. Once I get the new tub, I'll be surprised if my bill changes much in the next few months....but I'll definitely take a look at it to see whether it goes up or down compared to the old one.
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speaking of "energy efficient".....would an in-ground tub have any
significant plus side as far as retaining heat over a tub sitting on top of a deck?
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I'm not arguing that one hot tub may be insulated in such a way that it might save you a few cents per use, and a few bucks per month over another brand of hot tub.
I doubt it. My old hot tub ran almost every day for the past few years. I'm pretty used to the power consumption of a hot tub by now. Once I get the new tub, I'll be surprised if my bill changes much in the next few months....but I'll definitely take a look at it to see whether it goes up or down compared to the old one.
It is VERY naive to think all spas are basically alike when it comes to energy efficiency and we're not talking about a "few cents per use" or a "few bucks per month". Two people could buy 2 brand new spas tomorrow, similarly priced similarly powered (and similar pumps/features), use them the same amount of time in the same climates and it would not surprise me if the more energy efficient spa cost them maybe $40 a month while the less efficient costs 3x that.
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This is what I said:
I stand by every word of that.
Any hot tub you buy is going to jack your power bill regardless of what some slick talking salesman tells you about it being "energy efficient". Over the years, I've seen dozens of similar "energy efficient" claims made about chest freezers, refrigerators and air conditioners....and it doesn't take a genius to realize that's all BS too.
They may be efficient compared to some other model of the same appliance, but what happens when you plug any of those things in? The next month...boom...you'll notice it on the bill. A hot tub is no different....no matter what the sales pitch says. Heating water to 102 degrees or so (then keeping it there) takes a lot of juice. You'll notice it on the bill, no matter how "efficient" it is supposed to be. That's not even taking into account all the hours you spend out there each month with the jets on.
I'm not arguing that one hot tub may be insulated in such a way that it might save you a few cents per use, and a few bucks per month over another brand of hot tub. That's probably true. I'm just saying that it's only a matter of a couple of bucks, and nothing to get excited about. In the grand scheme of things, they're all HUGE power suckers. They cost more to operate each month than just about any appliance in your home (except maybe the AC in summertime).
Calling any of them "efficient" is just a stupid sales gimmick.
I doubt it. My old hot tub ran almost every day for the past few years. I'm pretty used to the power consumption of a hot tub by now. Once I get the new tub, I'll be surprised if my bill changes much in the next few months....but I'll definitely take a look at it to see whether it goes up or down compared to the old one.
And you base this on your years and years of being in and around this industry? You own a hot tub. You did some research when buying a hot tub. An all knowing expert in this industry you are not.
Among the top brands, energy efficiency differences will be small. However, there are many brands out there that are not nearly so energy efficient. Some can cost as much as three to four times a month more to operate.
I've been reading your posts and have grown tired of how you take the professionals that contribute to this forum and reduce them to sales hacks that are just pushing their brand. Some of us do know what we are talking about here and are not here to sell a hot tub. Some folks are here to put good information out and inform consumers who are looking to purchase a hot tub. None of the professionals here are trying to use sales gimmicks to sell these folks a spa. For the most part, they couldn't sell them the spa if they wanted due to different locations.
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It is VERY naive to think all spas are basically alike when it comes to energy efficiency and we're not talking about a "few cents per use" or a "few bucks per month". Two people could buy 2 brand new spas tomorrow, similarly priced similarly powered (and similar pumps/features), use them the same amount of time in the same climates and it would not surprise me if the more energy efficient spa cost them maybe $40 a month while the less efficient costs 3x that.
That is exactly what we hear from customers. We have sold many spas to people eho bought their 1st spa from the mass merchant with the great return policy. They said their spas were costing over $100/month.
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It is VERY naive to think all spas are basically alike when it comes to energy efficiency ........
And you base this on your years and years of being in and around this industry? You own a hot tub. You did some research when buying a hot tub. An all knowing expert in this industry you are not.
Jeez. Guys. Slow down.
I will happily admit I'm not an expert in this area. I bow to your infinite wisdom on the subject. You are spa masters and I am but your humble student.
Everyone's ego feeling better? Ok.
All I've been saying is that spas take a lot of power to operate. All spas. That....was my only point. I can't believe people are actually still arguing with me about that.
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Everyone's ego feeling better? Ok.
Some of us come here to stay in tune with what is out there, to read about what others see, to help others with our experience, etc. That kind of comment is inaccurate and ridiculous.
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I'm not arguing that one hot tub may be insulated in such a way that it might save you a few cents per use, and a few bucks per month over another brand of hot tub. That's probably true. I'm just saying that it's only a matter of a couple of bucks, and nothing to get excited about....Calling any of them "efficient" is just a stupid sales gimmick.
In a test of thermal efficiency of eight hot tubs, the Alberta Research Council found that at -12C, the most efficient model tested used 266W/m3*h while the least efficient used 968W/m3*h or over three and a half times as much energy. So where a "silly" energy-efficient hot tub might cost $30 a month, a less-efficient unit might cost over $100. That difference is considerably more than "a few cents" and the facts suggest that there is more involved than "a stupid sales gimmick".
There are actually some physics and engineering involved.
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In a test of thermal efficiency of eight hot tubs, the Alberta Research Council found that at -12C, the most efficient model tested used 266W/m3*h while the least efficient used 968W/m3*h or over three and a half times as much energy. So where a "silly" energy-efficient hot tub might cost $30 a month, a less-efficient unit might cost over $100. That difference is considerably more than "a few cents" and the facts suggest that there is more involved than "a stupid sales gimmick".
There are actually some physics and engineering involved.
Tom,
Is that Canadien $ or US? ;D
Did they test at higher temps? Josh in Seattle area and I in northern CA don't get -12C to often. :)
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Isn't the internet wonderful? With Google and cut/paste everyone's an expert.
Tom, is that comparing a high end modern spa with one of those wooden uninsulated ones?
Meaningless data on it's own.
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Wasn't there another response before this one? It seems to have disappeared.
Some of us come here to stay in tune with what is out there, to read about what others see, to help others with our experience, etc. That kind of comment is inaccurate and ridiculous.
Some of you may very well come here for that reason. It seems that others come here to trash competing brands and make ridiculous claims about the quality of the brands they sell. It's tough to tell which people are helpful and which are full of it....but believe me I'm trying to give everyone the benefit of the doubt.
So....if you're in a helpful mood, perhaps you could let me know which brands exactly are considered the "Top brands" that you consider to be "energy efficient". Also...maybe you could give me a list of the ones that aren't. It might be a useful reference for people.
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So....if you're in a helpful mood, perhaps you could let me know which brands exactly are considered the "Top brands" that you consider to be "energy efficient". Also...maybe you could give me a list of the ones that aren't. It might be a useful reference for people.
Well Josh,
Hot Spring and Arctic are the [glow]only[/glow] brands that I know of that have published 3rd party testing. For what it is worth:
http://www.hotspring.com/Spa_Showroom_Hot_Tub/energy_testing.html
http://www.arcticspas.com/index.php/en/custom_content/12/12/
Of course, studies are open to interpretation. Arctic studies use some criteria of temperatures that are outside the norm for millions of potential spa owners. Hot Spring study refers to a specific use pattern that is probably close to real use for most people and refers to several ambient temperatures.
If there are and other 3rd party tests out there I would like to see them. Not interested in any self reporting tests.
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If there are and other 3rd party tests out there I would like to see them. Not interested in any self reporting tests.
Yeah...that data isn't really helpful considering they're only publishing the specs on their own models. I'm more curious about comparisons against other leading (and not-so leading) manufacturers. After all...the claim I've heard repeated over and over in this thread is that "the top brands are energy efficient". I'm curious which brands are on that list...and which aren't (and where people are sourcing their data from).
I wonder if a truly independent 3rd party has ever done a study like this....and done research on more than just one tub?
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Some of you may very well come here for that reason. It seems that others come here to trash competing brands and make ridiculous claims about the quality of the brands they sell. It's tough to tell which people are helpful and which are full of it....but believe me I'm trying to give everyone the benefit of the doubt.
So....if you're in a helpful mood, perhaps you could let me know which brands exactly are considered the "Top brands" that you consider to be "energy efficient". Also...maybe you could give me a list of the ones that aren't. It might be a useful reference for people.
Josh, you have made a good decision on what you bought based on your evaluation of what the industry has to offer to you. I believe what everyone here is saying is that they live it every day and have done so for more than 2 or even 3 decades of industry experience. This does not make them right or wrong, but is does offer a great deal of input for them to form opinions and beliefs.
While we all have our individual beliefs, and we try to represent sell our products honestly and truthfully, we deliver a meaningful benefit to shopping consumers, even when we don't make a sale. We still extend every courtesy to every shopping consumer in their plight to seek and find their best choice. You have benefited from this experienced.
On the other hand, a consumer who has been shopping and listening to all of the dribble that comes out in the process about their Tub and the Tubs of others can only use their limited experience to form their opinion, of which you have many, and that's OK. This alone does not make them knowledgeable about what the industry has to offer, or what the differences are, or for that matter, how important is horsepower.
Shopping Consumers usually base their decisions on #jets, Horsepower, price, bells and whistles. That is when we hear about their negotiation skills that allow them to get a free this or that, or something included FREE for nothing, whatever, but a great deal, none the less.
Trash talk, overstated horsepower, great discounts certainly play a strong part in convincing the consumer who makes the eventual decision. You end up buying something that stands out to YOU, and it is usually from someone you feel comfortable with. That is a GOOD decision and a great experience.
To discuss who's got what or what is more efficient than another's are topics that are of interest BEFORE a decision is made, not after. That only brings up buyers remorse and a great levels of anxiety over what they bought.
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I wonder if a truly independent 3rd party has ever done a study like this....and done research on more than just one tub?
Because we live it every day, we can tell you the answer. NO, and why would it benefit anyone other than a manufacturer or the consumer to study and identify their energy consumption. The industry is young and the numbers are relatively small and do not justify a profitable return to afford the expense of third party examination. As you indicate, IF the manufacturer did their own evaluation, it would not be viable in your mind.
Who would pay the third party? Who would benefits from the data? The Maker, the Consumer, the Third Party? What you want is viable and specific proof from an unbiased, outside resource who get's nothing for their time, efforts, or expenses in doing so. Consumers Report's happens to be a viable third party source, but they have done nothing to this date.
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Josh, the post directly above yours, posted 20 minutes earlier, has the Arctic study, that was done with many different spas, by a 3rd party... Are you not reading posts before responding?????
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Well Josh,
Hot Spring and Arctic are the [glow]only[/glow] brands that I know of that have published 3rd party testing. For what it is worth:
http://www.hotspring.com/Spa_Showroom_Hot_Tub/energy_testing.html
http://www.arcticspas.com/index.php/en/custom_content/12/12/
Of course, studies are open to interpretation. Arctic studies use some criteria of temperatures that are outside the norm for millions of potential spa owners. Hot Spring study refers to a specific use pattern that is probably close to real use for most people and refers to several ambient temperatures.
If there are and other 3rd party tests out there I would like to see them. Not interested in any self reporting tests.
Yup... Doc.. there it is.. I was thinking the same thing. ::)
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Josh, the post directly above yours, posted 20 minutes earlier, has the Arctic study, that was done with many different spas, by a 3rd party... Are you not reading posts before responding?????
It would have been nice if the Arctic study compared itself with standard thermopane spas not just full foam spas. I gotta believe that since Arctic's design is not the same as the other thermopanes they proably wanted to distance themselves from any thought that they're just another thermopane spa design and wanted to compare themselves with full foam spas so they could say they insulate as well or better than full foam. It would have been interesting to have seen how Master, LA, Coleman, Dynasty, etc. and a few of the other larger thermopane spa makers would have faired in teh Arctic study.
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Josh, buddy... slow down. :o
What exactly does "top brands" mean to you? Best selling based on annual sales? Does that matter one little bit? Most pros here don't think so including myself who has represented "top brands" and others.
Over the years I've been around here, MANY have asked (or demanded) we "spill the beans" on what we all think is the BEST. The best for whom you may ask? Great question!!
Top brands mean absolutely NOTHING! It doesn't mean they aren't great spas, but your idea of a great spa (ie. overall value to YOU) may well differ from what others deem "best".
It's no science determining who the big boys are. A Google search can find that out in seconds... The really tough part is finding out which is best for you and your family.
Do you think anyone here that has been selling a brand for years is going to suggest their's isn't amoung the best regardless of your criteria? Wade through the BS, list the keys facts that are important to you, determine your budget, find a dealer that is local and will support you after the sale and find a spa that fits you and your family! Listing the top 5 (or however many) brands is a waste of time for us and yourself...
Oh...and for the record... most major manufacturers are within a few bucks per month in operational costs so don't spend too much effort on it... No one company stands leaps and bounds over others in operational costs even though some will claim superiority. It's called marketing... ;)
Steve
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Because we live it every day, we can tell you the answer. NO, and why would it benefit anyone other than a manufacturer or the consumer to study and identify their energy consumption. The industry is young and the numbers are relatively small and do not justify a profitable return to afford the expense of third party examination. As you indicate, IF the manufacturer did their own evaluation, it would not be viable in your mind.
Who would pay the third party? Who would benefits from the data? The Maker, the Consumer, the Third Party? What you want is viable and specific proof from an unbiased, outside resource who get's nothing for their time, efforts, or expenses in doing so. Consumers Report's happens to be a viable third party source, but they have done nothing to this date.
Are you asking my opinion?
Ok:
How about all the spa companies pay a yearly service fee to be included as part of the research that a completely neutral third party who rates and reviews spas does? For a nominal fee each year, this "Spa Review Board" would test every tub submitted to it in the same enviornment and publish their results for consumers and manufacturers alike. They could review the energy efficiency, gallons per minute per jet, plus have a "comfort and quality" review section as well.
Companies who scored well could hang their 5 star awards on banners outside their stores and on their websites. Companies who didn't....well...they'd know in which areas to do better.
Perhaps some of the spa experts here could start something like this up? I'm surprised with all the choices that one doesn't exist already. There's got to be a fortune in it. :)
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Josh, the post directly above yours, posted 20 minutes earlier, has the Arctic study, that was done with many different spas, by a 3rd party... Are you not reading posts before responding?????
Did YOU read it?
The Arctic Spa study he linked only listed 5 different brands, available in 2005.
I was looking for something a little more broad (if it existed). It's been pointed out by clover that such a thing does not exist yet.
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"No one company stands leaps and bounds over others in
operational costs even though some will claim superiority"
LOL
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I've read it, re-read it, archived a copy of it on 3 computers so as not to lose it, reposted it across the net, ripped it apart, and praised it for at least being done...........
Did YOU read it?
The Arctic Spa study he linked only listed 5 different brands, available in 2005.
I was looking for something a little more broad (if it existed). It's been pointed out by clover that such a thing does not exist yet.
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I've read it, re-read it, archived a copy of it on 3 computers so as not to lose it, reposted it across the net, ripped it apart, and praised it for at least being done.......
He's not exaggerating Josh, we in the industry have very detailed knowledge of these studies.
8-)
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He's not exaggerating Josh, we in the industry have very detailed knowledge of these studies.
8-)
I'm sure many of you do, I'm confused as to why he brought up the Arctic study when I said there should be an independent company that rates all the brands.....he jumped all over me and implied that I didn't read the posts.
Fact is, I DID read it....but saw that the Arctic study linked above only compares a handful of spas made by only 5 of the manufacturers. So many brands that people frequently mention favorably around here weren't on that list.
I was simply suggesting that someone should do a study that's a little broader than that.
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I was simply suggesting that someone should do a study that's a little broader than that.
I agree - it would be great.
HotSpring did have a study done. They offer all the details both online, and the company which did the study can duplicate the study on other tubs if manufactures would care to pay for the same testing. That would create a very good basis of comparison. I don't know why other manufacturers have not taken advantage of this opportunity.
8-)
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in a way Josh has a point.....it would be nice to see
an independent study that compared all major brands
just because two brands pay to have a study done & the
results show glowing results doesn't mean that other hot tubs
brands like Jacuzzi, Bullfrog, Sundance, D1, LA Spas, ect......
couldn't be just as good or even better at energy efficiency
in my industry, i feel like we are clearly the best in Dallas
but we do not pay to belong to the Better Business Bureau or
all the other industry groups.....we are a bit of a renegade......
our competition may have a glowing BBB status, but
that doesn't mean they are even close to being as
good as we are.
of course i understand thats not Hot Spring or Arctic's problem
if other tub makers dont spend money having studies done...
good for them....if they do
but it doesn't mean the others tub brands like
Jacuzzi, Sundance, Bullfrog, Coleman, D1, ect....have
any less energy efficiency than Hot Spring or Arctic.....
You guys hammer Josh for the "horse power" deal being a
marketing ploy but isn't it kind of the same thing with the
energy study, implying that Hot Spring or Arctic are any better
at energy efficiency than say Jacuzzi, Sundance, Coleman, or D1
when in reality they are probably all pretty close in energy consumption?
Are you guys claiming Hot Spring is superior or markedly different than
Sundance, Jacuzzi, or D1 in energy efficiency?
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Yeah...that data isn't really helpful considering they're only publishing the specs on their own models. I'm more curious about comparisons against other leading (and not-so leading) manufacturers.
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"Are you guys claiming Hot Spring is superior or markedly different than
Sundance, Jacuzzi, or D1 in energy efficiency?"
I am claiming there is a reason Sundance, Jacuzzi, D1, etc. do not have any published 3rd party testing. I leave it to your imagination why.
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Could it be that they did want to spend the money to put it in a marketing ad ?...I mean I think most would agree that all well made spas like Hot Springs, Jacuzzi , Sundance, Marquis, etc for spas of comparable specs. like one or two pump, like size heaters, size will all cost about the same to run each month. If anyone thinks that one of them cost substantially less than the others....Than please give my best to the fairy god mother, the tooth fairy, jack, sleeping beauty and mother goose....because fairy tale land must be where their living...
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"Are you guys claiming Hot Spring is superior or markedly different than
Sundance, Jacuzzi, or D1 in energy efficiency?"
I am claiming there is a reason Sundance, Jacuzzi, D1, etc. do not have any published 3rd party testing. I leave it to your imagination why.
Perhaps the whole problem here is that because there's a lack of concrete information on the subject, too many people are resorting to using their imaginations when it comes to this stuff.
I tend to agree with what Steve said:
Oh...and for the record... most major manufacturers are within a few bucks per month in operational costs so don't spend too much effort on it... No one company stands leaps and bounds over others in operational costs even though some will claim superiority. It's called marketing... ;)
Steve
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I think the majority of consumers understand going in that this is a luxury item and aren't going to panic because it costs $8 more per month to run a HotSprings vs a comparable Sundance. Given that assumption I don't see value to any such study other than to provide more sales fodder.
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Perhaps the whole problem here is that because there's a lack of concrete information on the subject, too many people are resorting to using their imaginations when it comes to this stuff.
..or maybe they're using their experience.
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I think the majority of consumers understand going in that this is a luxury item and aren't going to panic because it costs $8 more per month to run a HotSprings vs a comparable Sundance. Given that assumption I don't see value to any such study other than to provide more sales fodder.
At $8/month I would not worry about energy consumption when deciding between a Hot Spring and a Sundance. Now if the decision were between Hot Spring/Sundance versus a XX Spa, then I'd expect a bigger difference.
If you look at the Arctic study (and you believed in its accuracy) you'd conclude that energy consumption is not a major factor when deciding between the top performing brands in that study but the bottom performers in that study just did not stack up and in those cases energy consumption should definitely be a deciding factor.
Someone came to one of the other spa forums yesterday concerned about the energy use of his new spa. Someone asked him if he had given any thought to this subject before he purchased and I think his response is pretty typical of MANY people looking into spas and assuming them to be pretty much equal relative to energy consumption or not thinking about it at all:
The short answer is...not really. I think a lot of 1st time buyers are not thinking of insulation as their top, or even major, concern. Not because it should not be, but because their attention is focused on the "features" of the tub and how it fits. For example I have been in my friends Cal spa several times figuring what did and did not work for me and this was in the mountains of New Hampshire and [glow]not once did I think about how insulated it was. [/glow]
BTW, his spa was not a Cal in case that is what someone may read into this, it was a Mxxxxr.
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Tom, is that comparing a high end modern spa with one of those wooden uninsulated ones?
Meaningless data on it's own.
Why not read the study and answer your own question? It's freely available on our site, and 'unofficially' available elsewhere.
Seems odd that someone who clearly hasn't even looked at the study would dismiss it as 'meaningless'. It is AFAIK the only third-party comparative data published to date, which makes it the most meaningful available.
The data showed that the spas tested fell into two groups. The "well-insulated" spas were clearly distinguished from the "less-insulated" spas at both tested temperatures. As some have pointed out, those in the "top" group were fairly close together, especially in the warm test at 20C, and it was only in the "cold' test at -12C that there is much differentiation.
My post was in response to a comment that spas are all pretty much the same regarding energy efficiency. Available data shows that this is NOT the case; there are some clear differences. Some brands/models are demonstrably more energy-efficient than others. Is that an important consideration? For some, it may be; for others, it may not. But to claim that there is no distinction at all is simply incorrect.
For the person who wondered why the test was at -12C: data at the time suggested that it was the mean winter temperature for Alberta (and for some parts of Canada, it is the mean annual temperature!).
Those of you who live in warmer climes, be grateful. You can probably buy a relatively uninsulated spa and pay no great energy penalty.
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It would have been interesting to have seen how Master, LA, Coleman, Dynasty, etc. and a few of the other larger thermopane spa makers would have faired in teh Arctic study.
I agree, it would have been worth while. But in testing those eight spas, we had to go with what was readily available in the local marketplace and what would fit in with our growth and marketing strategy.
Even that limited study cost a fair chunk of change. How about you pay for the next one? ::)
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Guess you either didn't understand my question or didn't read the study yourself so you could answer it. I'm not dismissing the "study" as meaningless, it's your post that's meaningless. Presenting some abstract equation without quantifying the scope of items contained has no value. Maybe you thought we would be impressed with that equation you cut and pasted? No. Got a physics degree myself, though I'm no spa salesman. If you wanted to do something useful you should have just posted the link to the study for anyone that cared to see it.
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HA! This POS?? http://www.spaspecialist.com/AlbertaResearchCouncil.html
You paid money for that? Too funny...out of the eight spas "ramdomly" picked, 3 of them were Arctic???
I take back what I said about the study not being meaningless. What a joke. I wouldn't line the bird cage with that.
It's fitting that Jim's picture appears on that webpage.
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You paid money for that? Too funny...out of the eight spas "ramdomly" picked, 3 of them were Arctic?
Now you're just being a tease, and deliberately misreading my posts.
We paid for the tests, and of course we wanted our products included.
Jim Arjuna uses the study without our permission, but we have discussed the matter internally and decided it's not worth taking action on (we won't strain at gnats, so to speak :D ).
You have yourself a Merry Christmas.
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Gnat. I like that.
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This discussion is truely endless. No matter what you do, you are picked apart by the engineers and everything is found to be slanted or unsientific. But still, consumers are still confused about WHAT to pay attention to. It seems that others would prefer to find fault and pick something apart rather than to find something good or worthwile in the data provided.
Again, it comes back to money, yours, theirs and who should do what for who.
Every manufacturer wants to sell their product. IF they were to do a "documented, certifed, third party, evaluation, like HS or AS who tested 3 of their models and 5 other manufactured models, other manufacturers will call a foul that the study is biased, meaningless, the consumer will consider the source that paid for the "independent" testing and say the study is "flawed" and meaningless. Salestalk would abound with mis-information.
Whatever is done, it has to be done with a credible source, like the Pope or Mother Therasa who presumable represent the interests of many. Many in this thread would simply dismiss it as meaningless information. Why do it. Self satisfaction maybe. Artic did their study. They paid big bucks for their information and it reinforces what they wanted to know.
It does have meaning, it is useful, it is just that the money spent satisfies Artic's need for information. Their willingness to share is rebuked and found faulty.
HOW CAN YOU WIN. The consumer, the maker, the seller, the shopper all want the information. WHO should pay for it? When it is provided, it too will be dismissed as sales foder.
Find a good Hot Tub you like and Buy it. By the time you're ready to buy your next one, we will have this all worked out.
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Good post, Clover.
Merry Christmas to all
Tom
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Good post, Clover.
Merry Christmas to all
Tom
Thank you Tom,
and to all, a good night
Be merry, be happy, and leave Joy alone!
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Final word from me. Consumers, educate yourselves or blame no one but yourselves.