Hot Tub Forum
General => Beating a dead horse => Topic started by: East_TX_Spa on June 28, 2006, 05:31:00 pm
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A local competitor of our Tyler store has begun advertising that they are a Factory Direct Outlet for Artesian Spas. They say that people can save money because they don't have to pay the middle man.
It seems to me that they have been and STILL ARE the middle man. What am I missing?
Terminator
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See now, here in California we have a name for that. It's called "dishonest marketing."
Some folks just get lazy and use the short form: "Lying."
I also have a competitor who does that for D1 of all people. I know D1 and the folks who rep it, and they are fine people. They DO NOT sell factory direct.
Makes it tough for those of us who want to deal straight.
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That's what I never could figure out. If it is factory direct, it should be sold AT THE FACTORY. Otherwise, they are a dealer, same as the rest of us.
Terminator
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The word "sale" is so over used that companies get "creative" with their event wording to create interest and believable value. Isn't there a law against false advertising down there? ???
Maybe the rep isn't getting paid on spas sold during this? God forbid.... ;)
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I thought the only way you could get "factory direct" was from a tent on the side of the road? ::)
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I just heard their ad again on the way to work. It says they "are ONE of the largest Artesian Factory Direct Outlets" in the nation.
How many "factory direct outlets" does Artesian have?
Does Sundance or Jacuzzi have factory outlets? I believe Markee (the forum member) works at a Marquis factory outlet store. Hopefully he can explain it so that it makes sense.
I don't know of any HotSpring factory outlets.
Terminator
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When I started in San Diego some years back, I worked at the Jacuzzi Factory Store. It was owned and operated by Jacuzzi. There were four of them. San Diego, Orange County, Los Angeles and the Wallnut Creek store at the corporate head quarters. They sold the S.D., O.C. and L.A. Stores to private dealers but maintained for a short period, the Wallnut Creek store. I say, if you can't walk through a door into the manufacturering facility, then you are not buying factory direct.
I just heard their ad again on the way to work. It says they "are ONE of the largest Artesian Factory Direct Outlets" in the nation.
How many "factory direct outlets" does Artesian have?
Does Sundance or Jacuzzi have factory outlets? I believe Markee (the forum member) works at a Marquis factory outlet store. Hopefully he can explain it so that it makes sense.
I don't know of any HotSpring factory outlets.
Terminator
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Maybe its just the name they chose, kind of like buying a "superflat" television that isnt flat screen. They just decided to name it super flat.
Like they could of named the toyota Rav4 "doesthe1\4milein11secondsflat", doesnt mean anything, just a name haha. A missleading name of course.
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Maybe its just the name they chose
That's fine and dandy, except that they explicitly say in their ads that you can save thousands of dollars by eliminating the middle man. I don't recall them ever saying they were factory direct until recently. Maybe they are actually building the spas in their barn/showroom. Then, it would be perfectly ethical to claim factory direct status. Otherwise, I will have the opinion they are being deceitful unless someone can show me otherwise.
Terminator
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I would think that the store has to be owned by the Mfg. to be factory direct not necessarily attached to the factory.
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Factory direct merchandise comes directly from a factory.
If you go to the factory, or their warehouse to pick up your own spa, I'd buy the line that it was factory direct.
If you go to some other building, like a spa store claiming to be factory direct, I'm less apt to believe.
Someone is paying for that building and it's associated expenses, and the cost of moving the spas, and the salaries or commissions of those who are working at the "store". That sounds pretty much like a middleman to me.
Plus- factory direct doesn't mean that any savings are passed onto the consumer. The "factory" could choose to retain any middleman money for themselves. All merchandise has distribution costs of some type.
I think that spa makers should stick to what they do best- make spas. Let the dealers handle the sales and service end- that's what they do best. It might be more efficient in the long run.
Isn't Thermospa factory direct in a way? They don't have a network of retail shops run by independent business persons, so they should be able to pass a whole lot of savings onto their customers. From what I've read, they don't.
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Back in my retail days, the company I worked for advertised the same way. Factory Direct. The owner said that we bought from the factory direct rather than through a distributor. I think these days "Factory Direct" is way over used.
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I would think that the store has to be owned by the Mfg. to be factory direct not necessarily attached to the factory.
But they have a lease, same employee needs, etc. I know one manufacturer that has a factory direct store partially because the local dealer dropped them and they couldn't get anyone to carry their product.
Being Factory Direct sounds good in the sales pitch but it doesn't necessarily mean much. Heck, the people selling who sell spas in the Pennysaver from those storage units are more factory direct than most of these "factory direct" stores but I'm not sure I'd consider that such a great thing. Thermospas has been factory direct for years but that's not such a great thing. When I hear factory direct spas I don't get a warm fuzzy feeling.
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Please someone help me out here...but aren't we all "Factory direct dealers" here....I mean raise your hand if anyone is buying their spas from a distributor of some sorts....I think it is misleading but I guess we could all make the same claim of being Factory direct since we all buy direct from the factory.....Please do not think I am a advocate for making this claim but I just suppose we all could and as it was already said it does not mean much....
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Please someone help me out here...but aren't we all "Factory direct dealers" here....I mean raise your hand if anyone is buying their spas from a distributor of some sorts....I think it is misleading but I guess we could all make the same claim of being Factory direct since we all buy direct from the factory.....Please do not think I am a advocate for making this claim but I just suppose we all could and as it was already said it does not mean much....
I think factory direct is supposed to imply direct from factory to customer but it's been so muddled up over the past 10-15 years...
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That's fine and dandy, except that they explicitly say in their ads that you can save thousands of dollars by eliminating the middle man. I don't recall them ever saying they were factory direct until recently. Maybe they are actually building the spas in their barn/showroom. Then, it would be perfectly ethical to claim factory direct status. Otherwise, I will have the opinion they are being deceitful unless someone can show me otherwise.
Terminator
YOU KNOW. ::) ::).... I have heard rumors about this master spa maker who lives out west somewhere.... colorado maybe? he buys spa's, and then "makes them better" ;) ;)....
would that count as factory direct ?? ??? ??? ;D
"jim" something.......
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YOU KNOW. ::) ::).... I have heard rumors about this master spa maker who lives out west somewhere.... colorado maybe? he buys spa's, and then "makes them better" ;) ;)....
would that count as factory direct ?? ??? ??? ;D
"jim" something.......
That's Factory Re-Direct.
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And the plot thickens.....
A man has been in my store the last hour shooting the squat. Here is a basic rundown of what he said:
1. I'm Doo Lolly and I'm in the oil and gas business
2. I've heard HotSpring is the best
3. Another dealer, who I won't name, tried to sell me a $9000 spa for $14000
4. I own a bunch of Class III (full-auto) guns including an M-3 Colt (no such thing)
5. I can show you how to make your weapons full-auto (illegal act that I told him I wasn't interested in)
6. Oh, I'll go ahead and tell you who tried to rip me off (the Factory Direct dealer)
7. Well, I live in College Station (4 hour drive from here, so I tell him to go see his local dealer)
8. I gave the other guy several hundred dollars for a deposit, but I'll just let him keep it (OkeeDokee)
9. I make a lot of money...these spas look nice....the other guy has this same spa (HS Envoy) for about $9000....I may go back and get it...I could've slept with this 23 year old hotel worker last night and I'm 42....blah...blah....blah
I finally told him good luck, hoped he found the right spa, he'd regret it if he cheated on his girlfriend, and bye.
Now, this is the first time I have EVER had someone even mention this other company before, and it came on the day after I posted about their advertising practices. I smell a conspiracy and I don't know if it's my competitor or the ATF trying to set me up.
What do ya'll make of it or is my paranoia acting up?
Terminator
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M3, isn't that the "Grease Gun"?
(http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j61/GodlikeMoron/m3.jpg)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M3_Grease_Gun
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and if he was tlaking a mile a minute....was he sniiffling a lot?
::)
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Forgot about the Grease Gun, but he specifically said a Colt M-3, like a M-16.
Terminator
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And the plot thickens.....
A man has been in my store the last hour shooting the squat. Here is a basic rundown of what he said:
1. I'm Doo Lolly and I'm in the oil and gas business
2. I've heard HotSpring is the best
3. Another dealer, who I won't name, tried to sell me a $9000 spa for $14000
4. I own a bunch of Class III (full-auto) guns including an M-3 Colt (no such thing)
5. I can show you how to make your weapons full-auto (illegal act that I told him I wasn't interested in)
6. Oh, I'll go ahead and tell you who tried to rip me off (the Factory Direct dealer)
7. Well, I live in College Station (4 hour drive from here, so I tell him to go see his local dealer)
8. I gave the other guy several hundred dollars for a deposit, but I'll just let him keep it (OkeeDokee)
9. I make a lot of money...these spas look nice....the other guy has this same spa (HS Envoy) for about $9000....I may go back and get it...I could've slept with this 23 year old hotel worker last night and I'm 42....blah...blah....blah
I finally told him good luck, hoped he found the right spa, he'd regret it if he cheated on his girlfriend, and bye.
Now, this is the first time I have EVER had someone even mention this other company before, and it came on the day after I posted about their advertising practices. I smell a conspiracy and I don't know if it's my competitor or the ATF trying to set me up.
What do ya'll make of it or is my paranoia acting up?
Terminator
Ca you believe how much *&@$&*@ is coming from that guy???? guns that dont exist, illegal conversion kits, money is not important to him, hs is the best, .......
oh wait..... that last one might not be so bad.... ;) ;D ;D
cant resist teasing you term.
btw, i wont get a chance anytime soon to buy a new tub from you. my career search that i thought was going to take me just east of dallas wound up keeping me right here in good old SE VA......
my caldera is only 16 months old, so i will have to "live with it" for a while longer.
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And the plot thickens.....
A man has been in my store the last hour shooting the squat. Here is a basic rundown of what he said:
What do ya'll make of it or is my paranoia acting up?
Terminator
I'd steer clear of the guy- something's up somehow, I'd bet. Follow your instincts.
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That's Factory Re-Direct.
I'd consider it factory Mis-Direct.
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And the plot thickens.....
A man has been in my store the last hour shooting the squat. Here is a basic rundown of what he said:
8. I gave the other guy several hundred dollars for a deposit, but I'll just let him keep it (OkeeDokee)
What do ya'll make of it or is my paranoia acting up?
Terminator
He sounds like a nut but I'd let him know that I take spa deposits as well, $1000 minimum, small bills.
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So maybe you could spend 5 minutes of your day contacing the Texas Attorney's office and find out if a law has been broken here? I'll bet they even have a form on their website. I know ours does, and I've used it quite a few times.
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Please someone help me out here...but aren't we all "Factory direct dealers" here....I mean raise your hand if anyone is buying their spas from a distributor of some sorts....I think it is misleading but I guess we could all make the same claim of being Factory direct since we all buy direct from the factory.....Please do not think I am a advocate for making this claim but I just suppose we all could and as it was already said it does not mean much....
Mendo, I am with you here. Anyone who buys from the factory, not a distributor, is factory direct.
In this country I live in (Canada) there are many spas that a dealer buys from a distributor who buys from the factory (Catalina, Marquis, FreeFlow and I am sure more). This is less common than a dealer that buys directly from the factory.
What I guess could be deemed as dishonest is the implication that this is better or different than everyone else.
This marketing angle is pretty common. There are many spa features that dealers and manufacturers alike claim as their advantage. This same feature may be on many if not most brands, but this manufacturer claims it is their feature. Some brands claim they are the only :
"Ozone system that is UL approved"
"4 wall insulation"
"Self Cleaning"
"No By-pass filtration"
"Heat recovery system"
I could go on...
My 2.2 cents
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Well, we're all entitled to opinions, but facts are harder to dispute. When somebody tells me they are cutting out the middleman, and I find out they ARE the middleman, that is a lie.
Do we really have to discuss the symantics of it: "Factory Direct" always implies that a customer has somehow stumbled into a factory-owned store, an outlet, or some kind of factory clearance in which the factory is making a rare venture into the retail realm. And if that is the case, you should STILL check the prices, because if a manufacturer takes the exact same product and sells it for less in a factory-owned store, the dealers have a right to get upset - so you will most likely find the same or higher prices, or you will find blems and seconds.
Any other set up in which a dealer buys a product at wholesale and sells it at retail is not factory direct. Yes, there may be dealers who buy from a distributer, but those folks are usually reaping the savings on shipping and storage as the distributer assumes some of those burdens.
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Any "factory direct deal" would have to be sold to the consumer at dealers cost as that's the implication. As soon as it's shipped and there are costs associated to it such as advertising and marketing and every other overhead of a retail space, anyone selling it would be loosing money.
I'd love to go into one of these and grill the sh*t out of them!
I agree with what you're saying guys about EVERY dealer being factory direct. Unless the truck driver stops for lunch maybe... ;)
Steve
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Chas,
I guess it is just the perception of things....I have always thought of factory direct and factory owned as two distinctively different things. but I can clearly see how one can easily lump them together.
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I work at a Marquis factory store, but we don't market ourselves as being "factory direct". I do explain to customers that we are backed by Marquis Corporation and it's parent company Wexco, therefore we have a significant financial backing and will always be in business to service them and their spa. We are the retail location for Marquis in the Salem/Portland area in Oregon...so when people come to the factory looking for a spa, they are referred to our stores. Our prices are usually not any better than an independent Marquis dealer on the east coast, we are an example for most Marquis dealers of how our spas can be sold. We do have a factory outlet store in Salem that has a reconditioned units that have come back from the field, that is the only store we market as "factory direct reconditioned spas".
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we are backed by Marquis Corporation and it's parent company Wexco,
I thought Marquis was employee owned, I hadn't heard of Wexco.
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It is Employee owned...they were owned by Wexco but it was purchased from them sometime ago....
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THEY ARE THE MIDDLEMAN. WE ARE THE MIDDLEMAN.
But we don't claim that you'll save thousands of dollars by buying from us.
Anyway, life's good around here so I guess it doesn't really matter much in the overall scheme of things. :)
Terminator
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I do know not I guess it how you look at things...I think most of here purchase our chem's though a distributor not directly from say Leisure time as example to me that is a middle man but I think most of us buy our spas Factory direct...I think it is misleading in the way this dealer is promoting it.....or I guess if we are the middleman we are the first middle with spas and the third or fourth with other things..... ;)
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Wexco is a conglomerate of 5 pool and spa related corporations. Every employee of these 5 companies is an employee owner. Marquis Corp. is the largest of these 5 companies.
Mendo: Why don't you get your chems from Dynamic Solutions?
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Wexco is a conglomerate of 5 pool and spa related corporations. Every employee of these 5 companies is an employee owner. Marquis Corp. is the largest of these 5 companies.
Very interesting, I'd heard that you guys were empoyee owned but I always assumed that Marquis was owned solely by the Marquis employees. I didn't know they were part of a larger organization. What are some of the other 4 companies, are they well know at all?
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Very interesting, I'd heard that you guys were empoyee owned but I always assumed that Marquis was owned solely by the Marquis employees. I didn't know they were part of a larger organization. What are some of the other 4 companies, are they well know at all?
Yes, I agree with Spatech. This is very confusing. I thought Marquis was an Employee owned company myself. It sounds good anyway. :)
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Marquis Spas employees have nearly finished purchasing Marquis from Wexco. Other Wexco companies include Foxx Pools and Quaker Plastics.
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Marquis is 70% employee owned and in the process of acquiring the final 30%. Marquis has been a part of Wexco since 1985, but Wexco changed to an ESOP around 1999-2000. Some of our sister companies include:
Foxxx Pools - http://www.foxpool.com/
Pen Fabriactors - http://www.penfab.com/
Quaker Plastics - http://www.quakerplastic.com/
DPS: If I'm not mistaken, even after the final 30% purchase, Marquis will still be a part of Wexco. The 30% that is not currently employee owned is held by private investors.
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I buy my vegetables from a frarmer with a road side stand, corn, tomatos, green beans and more, and his wife makes jellies and stuff, THATS factory direct!
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I buy my vegetables from a frarmer with a road side stand, corn, tomatos, green beans and more, and his wife makes jellies and stuff, THATS factory direct!
and employee owned.
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So, if the factory is owned by the employees, that means they are shareholders. And as the company gets bigger, there are more shareholders. Those shareholders want the company to be profitable.
So how is that different than other corporations?
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Babies are usually "factory direct"
;)
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Don't some of ya'll sell Artesian? I heard their ad again and it said "One of the largest Artesian Factory Direct Outlets in the nation".
Are any of you folks that sell Artesian factory direct? Are ya'll one of the largest factory outlets or are you one of the middlemen, like us?
If you are one of the middlemen, do you lose many sales to your factory direct associates who are selling wholesale?
Terminator
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So, if the factory is owned by the employees, that means they are shareholders. And as the company gets bigger, there are more shareholders. Those shareholders want the company to be profitable.
So how is that different than other corporations?
not answering to Wall street for starters...
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I work at a company which was once employee owned.
The theory we operated under was that those who share in the success of the company will do more to contribute to that success.
It's amazing the difference in how you approach your job when you have a vested interest in the company (other than your paycheck and benefits package).
In our case it worked extremely well. Some time ago we were purchased by a large publicly traded corporation and are no longer employee owned.
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I work at a company which was once employee owned.
The theory we operated under was that those who share in the success of the company will do more to contribute to that success.
It's amazing the difference in how you approach your job when you have a vested interest in the company (other than your paycheck and benefits package).
In our case it worked extremely well. Some time ago we were purchased by a large publicly traded corporation and are no longer employee owned.
That's exactly it...You care more because you do have a vested interest...
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OK, so it gives the employees more reason to work.
Every company I have ever worked for has done that - by simply reminding me that my paycheck was on the line. Based on how well I performed, I got rasies, or got fired.
At the management level, do the people running the operation make different decisions because they have to answer to shareholders, as opposed to, well, shareholders?
Who is "Wall Street?" I am. I own stock in various companies, so I darn well expect them to perform, or I'll dump the stock. As an employee, do I have that option?
Just some thoughts. I hear a lot of 'employee owned' stories, and I guess I just don't get how it makes the company automatically better or worse.
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OK, so it gives the employees more reason to work.
Every company I have ever worked for has done that - by simply reminding me that my paycheck was on the line. Based on how well I performed, I got rasies, or got fired.
At the management level, do the people running the operation make different decisions because they have to answer to shareholders, as opposed to, well, shareholders?
Who is "Wall Street?" I am. I own stock in various companies, so I darn well expect them to perform, or I'll dump the stock. As an employee, do I have that option?
Just some thoughts. I hear a lot of 'employee owned' stories, and I guess I just don't get how it makes the company automatically better or worse.
I t doens't make it automaticly better or worse, but many employee owned companies have seen some success when compared to other non employee owend companies in the same industry.
Profit sharing is another great tool.
When someone referes to "Wall Street" yes, it's a metaphor for the investors. Sure, I'd say most of us all are investors via our retirement plans, 401Ks, and other such investment tools.
Publically held companies are legally respsonsible to act in the best interests of thier Stock Holders and are controlled by majority share holders that sit on the board of directors.
The main point being:
Many times, a stock holders best interests are not inline with what might be best for the consumer or the employee.
Not always, but sometimes.
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Chas
Do you really believe that each and everyone of your employees who are not in family cares about your business in the same way you do....as a small busniess I am sure they care much more so than do most but how many have worked for you and you have shook your head at some of the things they have done that you yourself would never do.....and yes I know memebrs of our family can do the same thing... ;)
Whose Wall street......a small little place in New York.....but they are the reason that some companies have to find a way to save penny here and nickle there....even if it means that by doing so you are shaving down some of the little things that really made your product but hopefully it is things no one will really notice ...like the type of screws used or getting away from braided lines....
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As Drewstar said, it's doesn't automatically do anything (employee ownership). But what do you think, from a bigger picture perspective, motivates people more-
The potential sharing of the wealth of a successful company, or the threat of termination if you don't succeed.
If all you get out of a job is a paycheck (and maybe a few benefits) you can get that by just doing enough to get by. But you may go above and beyond the call (something many employees don't get extra recognition for) if there is some type of reward for your extra efforts.
Now that we're not employee owned anymore, we have instead an incentive compensation plan in place that rewards employees for the same type of work- but we get an annual bonus instead of stock.
If the company reaches certain benchmarks, laid out to all employees early in the year, a certain amount of money is put into a bonus pool. This is the base. As we exceed our benchmarks, more money is added to the pool, and the rate of increase is greater the more we exceed the goals.
Then the pool is split among the employees and paid out just before the end of the calendar year.
In order to recieve the pool money, you have to be performing- you just can't "get by".
This program has been in place since about 1999, and the annual payout for me has never been less than about one months extra pay (on the lowest.)
So far the best has been about 4 months pay.
Typically it's around 2-3 months pay.
The founder of our company has written a couple books on the subject of employee ownership and similar concepts, and he tells it WAY better than I can.
In order for it to work, the leadership of the company has got to believe in it, and so do the employees.