Hot Tub Forum
General => Beating a dead horse => Topic started by: spa_dr. on June 07, 2006, 10:09:20 am
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Here is the latest on master spas.
Angry consumers are boiling mad -- at a local hot tub company. They tell us the company promised them thousands of dollars in rebates -- but never delivered. Some of the customers contacted Call 4 Action after losing thousands of dollars.
It's supposed to be a place to unwind. But when Mike Moran uses his hot tub -- he also thinks about the bad experience he had when he bought it - from Master Spas. He says the company misled him.
Kari Wellhausen thought she was getting the deal of a lifetime with her hot tub. But in the end, it was no deal at all. She says she lost $6000. And she calls it a scam.
Master spas has a store in Waukesha -- but they do a lot of business at Summerfest -- and here at the state fair. In fact they've got their name on the fair's cream puff pavillion -- where people line up for the legendary treats. It's here that Master Spas sold people on a deal that was not very sweet.
Mike Moran was at the fair -- when he spotted the master spas display. He says the sales people told him if he bought the hot tub -- he could get a huge rebate down the road. "Yes in fact on our contract it said $8000 36 month rebate," Moran shows us.
He says the sales people told him all he had to do was turn in some paperwork - three years after the purchase date -- and he would get 8-thousand dollars back -- on the $9600 tub.
Kari Wellhausen got a similar pitch. She was told she could get the entire $6000 purchase price refunded 3 years later. "I certainly was skeptical - and I asked them over and over again if it was really true - that it would really work," she recalls.
This rebate program wasn't run by Master Spas - but by a company they contracted with -- called the Consumer's Trust. And the rebate included a long list of hoops you have to jump through to collect the money
But Mike and Kari filled out the paperwork, and submitted the rebate forms three years later.
They even had to send in certified copies of their birth certificates - and their bank statements! Still -- Consumer's Trust turned them down -- saying they had failed to follow every step of the instructions-- and refused to pay out on the rebate.
"I feel a little foolish - but it was stated on my receipt that it was a voucher for the full amount and I would get it back in 3 years - and I believed them."
So did many other customers - at Master Spas and other companies that offered rebates from consumer's trust. Online discussion boards are filled with similar stories - from across the country. And dozens of people in Wisconsin have complained to the state about Consumer's Trust.
Nationwide there may be more than 70,000 people who were involved in this particular scheme.
In fact the Wisconsin Attorney General's office is considering legal action against Consumers Trust -- and the State of Missouri has already sued Consumers Trust.
State officials believe the consumer's trust rebate program was designed to be so difficult - hardly anyone would ever get their money back.
"I think this practice was unconscionable - we think they violated Wisconsin law."
And it gets worse. Consumers Trust declared bankruptcy last year - making it even harder for consumers to collect. Investigators in Missouri believe the people who ran consumers trust took the rebate money -- and funneled it into overseas bank accounts.
Angry customers now have to go to bankruptcy court in New York - to try to recover from Consumers Trust. Lawyers for the company did not return our calls.
Meanwhile - some have turned their anger toward Master Spas - for offering the rebate program in the first place.
"So Master Spas is telling you we're not responsible for this it's not our problem" we said.
"Exactly - and I don't feel that that is true - I feel they were the ones that hired this company to do their promotion."
So went to the State Fair - where Master Spas was supposed to be holding a weekend sale.
We said, "We've been contacted by some customers who are very unhappy about a rebate program you've been offering. "
They said they don't know anything about that. One employee told us he didn't know how to reach the owner.
His name is Craig Hueffner - he refers to himself as "Craig the spaman". We went looking for him at his store -- to ask him why he won't help his customers. Eventually we caught up with him by e-mail -- but he refered us to his lawyer. Neither of them would talk to us on camera.
The attorney claims master spas delivered on it's end of the bargain - by providing a hot tub. On the phone the lawyer told me - they got a quality product.
But for angry customers who feel they were duped -- the whole experience -- leaves them steamed.
We talked with the Wisconsin Attorney General's office and they're still considering legal action against consumers trust.
The customers we talked to would also like to see action against Master Spas.
For that to happen - consumers will have to convince the attorney general's office that master spas was directly responsible for misleading them.
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What a completely morally bankrupt organization. Any person that would involve themselves in any way in this scam is nothing but a degenerate at every level.
The idiot consumers let their greed get in the way of their common sense, of which they were obviously in short supply.
Terminator
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You appear to be quoting a news story? Is this recent, or a rehash?
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The idiot consumers let their greed get in the way of their common sense, of which they were obviously in short supply.
Terminator
Bullseye!!! The whole concept is so far fetched that it's difficult to believe anyone would fall for it. Not that it excuses the scammers, but really.....
Do the freakin math!! It's a classic pyramid scheme at the very least.
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Looks like a news story from 4/28/2006 (search google using the first sentance of the article).
You appear to be quoting a news story? Is this recent, or a rehash?
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www.todaystmj4.com/_content/news/special/story_2411.asp - 32k
Here is the address for the video of the report
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What a completely morally bankrupt organization. Any person that would involve themselves in any way in this scam is nothing but a degenerate at every level.
The idiot consumers let their greed get in the way of their common sense, of which they were obviously in short supply.
Terminator
Agree but point #2 is that Master Spas MUST have known what the end result would be. They chose to get in bed with this sleezy act and now they want to say they had nothing to do with it. They took the shortsighted "anything to make a sale" approach which helps up front but can kill you in the long run. They deserve the bad press they get for this.
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Bullseye!!! The whole concept is so far fetched that it's difficult to believe anyone would fall for it. Not that it excuses the scammers, but really.....
Do the freakin math!! It's a classic pyramid scheme at the very least.
they were selling spas not pyramids. you should go to whatsthebestpyramid.com. Just like any scam it involved gaining the confidence of the consumer.
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If Master had a deal or partnership with Consumers Trust than Master has to have some liability. It does seem far fetched that anyone would fall for this but if the dealer was promoting the rebate I could see consumers falling for it. I am surprised some Attorney General has not gotten involved.
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If Master had a deal or partnership with Consumers Trust than Master has to have some liability. It does seem far fetched that anyone would fall for this but if the dealer was promoting the rebate I could see consumers falling for it. I am surprised some Attorney General has not gotten involved.
The two times I have heard of this practice and Master Spa it has been a dealer in Wisconsin. I know my local Masterspa dealer has never done anything like that. Does this go on elsewhere? Or are we talking one renegade dealer?
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I'ts actually been done in many different industries....... Replacement windows is one that comes to mind.,
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The subject line for this thread is so very appropriate.....apparently, this horse will never die.
Don Henley got it right:
"People love it when you lose,
They love dirty laundry"
I posted this thread about MS last week and, even though it was an example of how MS addressed a jet warranty issue, an issue which was well discussed on this forum, only 1 poster other than myself responded:
MS jet warranty example (http://www.whatsthebest-hottub.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=wtb-hottub;action=display;num=1149179637)
Yet, as soon as someone dredges up the old Consumer's Trust crap (and, indeed, it is crap) or someone recycles the old MS spa show crap, you can't swing a dead cat without hitting a poster.
And who is this spa_dr. with 34 posts who decided he'd post this without revealing the source? Troll comes to mind......
wmccall, please relegate this to the forum in which it belongs.
So, to quote Don Henley yet again:
"We all know that crap is king
Give us dirty laundry"
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I am a 9 yr. spa vet.I was the service tech for a MS dealer as well as many other brands. just because I don't spend all my time responding to post doesn't mean I don't know what I'm talking about. And by the way, any good dealer is going to take care of a jet. MS gave a new jet but would not reimburse labor on a jet. Am I expected to drive 20 miles and fix a spa without compensation? Now you may be OK with replacing the jet yourself but some customers are not. These customers get very angry and who is to blame? They usually yell at me. I will tell you from first hand experience that a satisfied MS customer in my area is a rare thing. I have serviced a lot of spas and IMO master is almost a quality brand they rate right up there with low end hydro and the"super high end" haven. who the hell are you to ask for moderation on my post?
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And who is this spa_dr. with 34 posts who decided he'd post this without revealing the source?
next time read the whole thread before you rant.
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Windsurfdog, I understand you are happy with your spa and you should be as it is doing everything you want it to do. But, surely you cannot defend this type of criminal behavior on the part of Master Spa.
If HotSpring ever foisted this type of scam upon it's dealers (and I'm sure they never would), we would drop them in a heartbeat and I would be first in line to say that they are the scum of the earth.
That is complete and udder chicanery that they have entered into, dancing with the devil, so to speak. They deserve every single solitary detrimental remark they receive on this and every other forum until they do the right thing and reimburse their victims.
Terminator
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Terminator,
You missed the point of my post entirely. Read carefully to see that I do indeed feel the Consumer's Trust crap to be just that....crap. Please read any number of "dead horse" posts to see that I think MS made a major mistake with this program.....how could anyone even think this was anything but a mistake and poor judgement considering the outcome.
Now to reiterate my point.....THIS IS OLD NEWS. It has been hashed and rehashed over and over by those here that seem to delight in MS dirty laundry and this latest thread is no exception. And it seems that you along with everyone else except Wisoki decided that any positive news coming from the MS camp was not worthy of discussion....and that's fine with me but it is a fact. Let's face it....if it has to do with HS, it is MORE than worthy for discussion. If it has to do with MS dirty laundry, it is MORE than worthy for discussion, no matter how many horses have died. If it has to do with anything positive re: MS, it is dismissed as unworthy of discussion. This is just a fact at this board, plain and simple. I can live with it if you can.
Now for spa_dr., looks like your post has been relocated as well it should. I read the whole thread but I thought it interesting that in your initial post you did not quote your source. I saw you subesequently responded after having your hand called.
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Oh, and Terminator, reimbursing their "victims" for 2/3-total initial purchase price of their spas? So just because these consumers who 1) were duped and 2) used EXTREMELY poor judgement to think that they could get a spa for 1/3 price to totally free should expect MS to do just that? I don't know what would be right but that is not it. Those people bought a spa and were delivered a spa. Should MS do something....anything? Probably but I'll bet anything less than what you mentioned would still garner a black eye. MS made an extremely poor decision and now it will haunt them on these forums.
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It will haunt them in more than these forums windsurfdog...I'm guessing it will impact them directly in sales with their affiliation to this scam.
I don't think anyone is questioning the overall quality of the MS product. Like you, I do question their morals and values though. There's no way that MS can afford to pick up the balance owing to these suckers I mean, consumers.
As always, it's buyer beware and although MS decided to crawl into bed with this scam in an effort to move product, it's come back to bite them in the a$$ with deep repercussions. It was pitiable business decision and very short sited on their part.
Consumers Trust has run its course and died. I think it's still important to inform consumers of these types of scams as I'm sure someone else will create something similar under a different name soon enough.
It's hard to feel sorry for these people but the reality is that they were scammed. I just have no idea how MS can make this right for all of them now nor do I believe it’s entirely up to them to do so.
Steve
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Fair enough on your retort, I do realize you are against the shenanigans and I did not mean to imply otherwise. You've always been a straight shooter in my books and I would never want to insinuate or have my words misconstrued into something unintentional.
My statement that Master Spa should reimburse their victims is from the standpoint that they overcharged on the spas to cover the cost of the rebate. A spa that should be sold for $7000 is sold for $10,000 with the customer believing they would receive $5000 back. That is fraudulent and they should return the $3000 difference if they were truly committed to making reparations to their victims.
Terminator
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The two times I have heard of this practice and Master Spa it has been a dealer in Wisconsin. I know my local Masterspa dealer has never done anything like that. Does this go on elsewhere? Or are we talking one renegade dealer?
Happens in my neck of the woods, So AZ. My neighbor fell for it, and I am sure he hasn't gotten any cash back- or he would have rubbed it in my face. I told him he was crazy! So much for knowing someone in the industry, he didn't even ask my opinion first. Oh well.
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Fair enough on your retort, I do realize you are against the shenanigans and I did not mean to imply otherwise. You've always been a straight shooter in my books and I would never want to insinuate or have my words misconstrued into something unintentional.
My statement that Master Spa should reimburse their victims is from the standpoint that they overcharged on the spas to cover the cost of the rebate. A spa that should be sold for $7000 is sold for $10,000 with the customer believing they would receive $5000 back. That is fraudulent and they should return the $3000 difference if they were truly committed to making reparations to their victims.
Terminator
Thank you, Terminator.....I appreciate that. And I also agree that if these people were duped into the type of deal you mentioned that, yes, I'd say some reparation would be warranted and may ease the pain but what that might me would be tough to determine considering the pricing practices of the industry (i.e., two people in two different parts of the country buying the same model spa for $500-$2000 difference....not uncommon at all no matter which manufacturer). In any case, reparation, unless dictated by a court of law, would be pretty tough to determine unless it was spelled out plainly in the sales agreement at the time of purchase. Basically it boils down to not only MS making a major mistake associating with CT but also the extreme lack of judgment on the part of the duped consumers....their desire to get "something for nothing" plays a major role with this as well.....these folks weren't just little lambs completely innocent waiting for slaughter.....they had their misguided agenda as well and they were willing to jump through the hoops including taking the risk that CT would indeed be around long enough to make it pay. Please don't get me wrong.....I definitely am not trying to make this look as if the consumer is to blame for instigating this mess.....they are not. But CT played on the the consumers' greed and desire to get something for nothing and they bit hook, line and sinker. And if the consumers got into something like this without thinking there was any risk, then I truly feel sorry for their lack of intelligence and good common sense.