Hot Tub Forum
Original => Hot Tub Forum => Topic started by: gmdodt on October 11, 2018, 01:17:49 pm
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My 2016 Vanto is still randomly tripping the GFCI every week/other week. Pump 1 was replaced. I pulled the board and there are no signs of any problems. Tighten all connections. Tub is wired correctly. Tried replacing the breaker itself. Thought it was pump 2 so disconnected it and it still happened. What else could it be!? If it was the heater I would think it would happen more often. Only other things are the control thermistor, LEDs, and pressure switch. All connections for them looked good. Losing my mind. Been more than a year of this happening.
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Are there any junction boxes between the breaker and the tub?
Are the wires run underground?
You can put a meter on the tub and see if there is any amperage leaking to ground.
You may need to check the wire from the breaker to the spa.
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No junction boxes that I know of. We had the house pre-wired for a hot tub when we built it in 2011 so the wires run through the firs floor walls of the house to the backside. They used 6 gauge from our main panel to a spa box on the back of the house. We ran 6 huge from that spa panel to the tub. The wire from the spa panel to the tub ( underground in PVC for a few feet) has already been replaced, as has the breaker. My multimeter tests of amperage indicated no leaks to ground..that I remember. Is there a certain test you have in mind?
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The last time you posted I suggested a test using a special tester called a megger tester to test the insulation value on the heater pass thru. I have read slight intermitting weeping or any moisture can cause an intermitting GFCI fault and could be no place close to what would progress to a melt thru if the GFCI wouldn’t be in place doing its job. The GFCI will shut it down so quickly there would be no evidence of shorting. As it is right on the boarder line to trip it would go back to working fine. A multi meter doesn’t have the current potential to see a break in the insulation.
It is the only helpful thought I have as you have run down all the other potential problems.
Sometimes romex is run thru the house but then per code if where the feed exits the house and runs to the GFCI panel outside it has to switch to conduit and romex is not allowed in conduit. So there is a J-box at that place. If the romex stays in the house and passes straight into the GFCI panel thru the back there wouldn’t be a junction point.
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Oddly enough I just found out one of my neighbors is a master electrician so I was going to contact him and see if he had the tool and could help. There may be a junction box in the house though I doubt it based on the wiring I see in the main house panel and what exits the house in the back. Just so I'm clear, you think the guy should test the connectors to the heater with the megger? I'm assuming he'd know how to do it, but if not, how does one do this test? I'm guessing all components (pumps) and lines into the tub panel can be tested with the megger too?
I'll report back when I have the electrician come over. Absent of that, I have no clue where to go from here.
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Your neighbor should know how to isolate the heater and megger it.
Here are a few links to look at that will give you an idea of how the test works.
Also a few links from the mikeholt site where there is a lot of intermittent hot tub GFCI fault threads.
Hope you get it figured out.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XV6QlTwobLo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJlcKhc8tJo
http://forums.mikeholt.com/showthread.php?t=116446
http://forums.mikeholt.com/showthread.php?t=180181
http://forums.mikeholt.com/showthread.php?t=147080
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Thanks. Looks like id have to drain the tub so i can pull the heater to do this per the video
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I don’t think you will need to drain the tub just disconnect the power to the heater. The water is likely playing a part in a heater starting to short to ground. Of course stay out of the water when testing.
The way a GFCI works is by comparing current in to current out if there is an imbalance of a very tiny amount it will shut down. The imbalance happens when some part is taking a path to ground. Without GFCI the slight trickle would build and produce heat making insulation break down and then pass more current until you had a melt down or tripped the over current breaker. These things work so fast there is never an over current and they can remain marginal for a long time.
Because they are there for human projection not equipment protection they react so fast and at such a slight level a human wouldn’t even feel a shock. I would never get into a tub of water where 240v has a potential to enter the water without such a device.
I will also remind everyone to test your GFCI once a month just as it suggests inside the electrical enclosure door. It is a very good idea to do this but the only people I know that do it are people who work in the electrical field. That also goes for the 120V units in the garage, basement, bath and kitchen.
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So he just came by and he meggered the heater and both pumps, both check out. I really don't understand anymore. He recommended replacing the start capacitor in pump 1..but that's a brand new pump (few months). I had already switched out capacitors in pump 2 to no avail...and those capacitors are a different size then pump 1 (ofcourse..). Was weird to see that pump 1 capacitor is only 110v when its a 220v pump...guessing because low speed doesnt use too much to kick on? I dont even know where to go from here.
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Trouble shooting an intermittent problem is one of the toughest things. You have catch it in the act and even then it isn’t something even if you were standing right there you wouldn’t get a clue unless you had a meter hooked up. In the factory we used to hook up chart recorders to equipment trying to find a problem when it happened and that’s beyond the scope at home.
Each thing you eliminate is one you can cross off the list and you just about have everything eliminated now. I know how frustrating this can be.
I think on the Vanto the ozone was an option and don’t know if you have that or not. Just in reading about problems similar to yours in trying to help you I ran across a couple where the ozone generator caused a GFCI problem. I don’t think you have mentioned that before. Just throwing out ideas.
You don’t have a circulation pump so you must have your tub set to cycle on to clean. I’m assuming this is when the trip happens. We had talked before about mounting a run light on the tub so you could see from a distance when the GFCI had tripped. You could also power a clock set to the right time and when you see the GFCI tripped the clock would stop and then you could compare the time on the clock to actual time and see if the trip lined up with the beginning of a clean cycle etc. would at least give a clue.
Your neighbor the electrician didn’t have any other ideas? I assume he did the megger at 500v?
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Yup, no ozone or circ pump.
I am assuming it happnes during filter or[/b] heat sessions too, but I cannot confirm that.
I honestly am not sure what it was set at when he was using the megger, but he did offer me to keep the tool (which i didnt but could still get) since he is retired and doesnt really ever use it. Who knows, maybe ill retest, or test other things as people make suggestions..
Yea, it would be nice to wire a light in so that I could tell without going outside, getting shoes on, lifting the cover, etc. just to tell if it is on in the cold weather, but I just havent done it yet.
I think what I am going to do now is use my spare baby monitor camera, sign up for a month of cloud storage and put the camera in the cabinet pointed where the LEDs are displayed. The LEDs say if the tub is on, if its heating, etc.. Maybe if I can get more insight into when its tripping, it'll help the diagnosing.
Anywho...any other test i can do with the megger? Like I said, he did the two pumps and heater. He isolated each, put one end on one of the conductors and the other to a ground (not sure if it was the ground bar or what, but it was a ground..I should have paid closer attention).
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I would want to see the ground end clamped right to the heater unit tubes or frame. I would also disconnect the wires as to not send 500v back to the controller. The wire is rated at 600v breakthrough so the heater should be at least as high so a setting of 500v would seem fine.
I have often thought a light or buzzer if I lost power thru the GFCI would be a good thing to have. We use our tub a lot but sometimes skip even a week. Because I dose the tub manually I do get a chance to look at it most days and I hear the clean cycle run.
There is not much more than the heater and the motors that could be tested with a megger. If you are sure the GFCI is working properly and it has a test function for that. There is something in the tub that is slightly shorting to ground once in a while causing the trip.
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Well the heater has a grounding bar on it, where each pump ground comes to. Im not sure where else you could connect the ground. Its a cylindrical tube so not many options I suppose if i had three hands or help that I could just hold it against the tube itself. You wouldnt want to connect it to the other pole sticking out..right (where the other conductor goes to)? I could disconnect the green grounding cable from the heater to the main board and hook the megger to that. The heater is metal itself obviously so I think that cable is just grounding the main board, so it shouldnt hurt to disconnect. How he tested it still had the ground cable connected to the main board, I know that for sure since we didnt take the screw for that cable out. Like I said, I wasnt exactly paying as close attention as I should. I think it would probably be best for me to borrow the tool and attempt the test again.
However, on the pumps...I wouldnt disconnect the grounding wire to the heater ground bar if I were to test them, correct? Because then the pumps wouldnt be grounded.. My knowledge of electricity is pretty limited
do you think anyone of the sensors could cause a trip? They all seem to function fine and moisture to boot around them that I can see. Only thing ive noticed is occasionally the displayed temp will not be the actual temp, but once any button is pushed, then the display temp "refreshes" and is correct.
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last I left you, you had un-hooked pump 2 for an extended time, guessing it tripped when un-hooked?
You have gone through the steps of a nuisance tripping spa more than anyone I have seen in 10 years+ on this forum.
Pump 1 is new. Pump 2 unhooked, I assume tripped the breaker though it took awhile? Really leaning now at the heater. For what a new element cost compared to a pump, it's a cheap option. Possible there is some kind of really minute short? Which would be really odd, but it is cheaper then a new pump.
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correct. the second time i unhooked pump 2 to test it, it tripped breaker. The first time it was unhooked it went 2 months without tripping. Heater is the next option I suppose, though it megged ok. The only other thing is the control board...which is an expensive guess. Id like to unhook the heater but now its fall/winter and I still think that if I purely disconnect the heater, the tub will just run 24/7 trying to heat to the set point. If I knew what soft jumper was the heater (if there is one) i could disable to jump/heater. Wish i had a dang caldera service manual or something
Would a universal type element do the trick? like this one on https://www.amazon.com/Replacement-Flo-Thu-Spa-Heater-Element/dp/B01M7T4E95/ref=pd_sbs_86_1?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=B01MDPRDNG&pd_rd_r=def305de-d5ac-11e8-abbe-4f1f465cc9f1&pd_rd_w=B39L7&pd_rd_wg=lu4JQ&pf_rd_i=desktop-dp-sims&pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_p=7d5d9c3c-5e01-44ac-97fd-261afd40b865&pf_rd_r=V1TT8GR9PZDXY08X6FJF&pf_rd_s=desktop-dp-sims&pf_rd_t=40701&refRID=V1TT8GR9PZDXY08X6FJF&th=1 (https://www.amazon.com/Replacement-Flo-Thu-Spa-Heater-Element/dp/B01M7T4E95/ref=pd_sbs_86_1?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=B01MDPRDNG&pd_rd_r=def305de-d5ac-11e8-abbe-4f1f465cc9f1&pd_rd_w=B39L7&pd_rd_wg=lu4JQ&pf_rd_i=desktop-dp-sims&pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_p=7d5d9c3c-5e01-44ac-97fd-261afd40b865&pf_rd_r=V1TT8GR9PZDXY08X6FJF&pf_rd_s=desktop-dp-sims&pf_rd_t=40701&refRID=V1TT8GR9PZDXY08X6FJF&th=1)
This is the heater that is currently in the tub, just for reference -
https://www.hotspringpartshotspringfilters.com/hot-spring-watkins-parts/caldera-spa-parts/caldera-heaters-1/73994-heater-4kw?language=en¤cy=USD&gclid=Cj0KCQjwkpfWBRDZARIsAAfeXarIXo3MKrZikG212Nlcqhi3tFmOyfZ_ULBT5b7ECVsKMSy3klk6-LgaAqjQEALw_wcB
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Either would work, if it were me I would just order the whole tube and slap it in. But not from that site. You should be able to find the same thing for less. 120 to 170 range.
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Ok I found it for 150. Right now, I was able to set up that camera and the cloud storage so I can see videos of the LEDs. If the tub is tripping during or right after heat cycle I'd be able to tell since a red LED comes on when it heats. If it trips without a red light on I would doubt it's the heater. Regardless, gonna wait to order heater till next trip or two when I can review the video evidence.
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Sounds like you have a workable trouble shooting plan with the camera. Give that a go and see what you find out.
As to the megger test you are actually testing the insulation between the heater and the metal that contains the water and eventually your earth ground. The way the insulation gets tested is by forcing a voltage on it as great or greater than it normally sees. Wire for 240v insulation is rated at 600v so there should be a safety factor. So in the case of wire shorting out you would test it with some voltage lower than 600v. you don’t want to make the item fail with the test unless it is below spec.
So say your heater normally sees 240v and is insulated for 600v as the safety factor but is breaking down slowly from water weeping or corrosion. Now it works fine at 240v but might fail at 250v. So maybe a little voltage spike will trip it once in a while. The megger test will find something that is boarderline.
Be careful with holding the probes or clamp, you want to stand back and push the button as these things will give you a good jolt. In the old days you cranked them now they have batteries and step the voltage up.
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Bud -
I understand the concept of a megger, I just don't necessarily know the actual steps in conducting the test. I would disconnect both power leads from the heater to the board and put a probe in one of them. The other line from the megger would go to the grounding bar on the heater, where the 2 pumps are also grounded, correct? The heater ground itself is screwed into the main spa board. I'm guessing so that the heater and board are tied together which is then grounded by the green wire coming out of the breaker. Are those the correct steps? Also to make sure megger is on 500v..
For pumps i would disconnect both conductors from the main board, probe one, then put the other line from the megger onto the heater ground bar where the pump ground is connected, correct?
I'm fairly confident my neighbor did it correctly, I also just want to learn and there's no harm in testing twice.
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Personally I would totally isolate the device I’m testing electrically. No need to remove it from the tub. Chances are leaving the ground connected won’t harm anything as the ground should all be common and go back to earth. I just wouldn’t want 500v anyplace on the controller if I didn’t have to. Think of it as if you were trying to burn out the heater by forcing it to arc to the casing. In this case you shouldn’t put enough voltage to do that unless it is already a bad insulation. It should be good for at least 600 volts. I don’t know the exact spec the heater manufacture would test at most likely 1000v or something like that. I would feel safe testing at 500v.
You could do the same thing disconnecting the power wires on both end and megger testing between the two wires and ground. If you had a slight breakdown in the wires it would show up. That would be something like a nick or crack in the wire insulation that wouldn’t pass current normally but if they got wet then it could trip the GFCI. Remember a GFCI only needs to see I think 5ma going to ground to trip and the trip happens in one cycle of the power so it shuts you down before any melt thru could take place.
The megger does not have the current potential like the main feed has it is mostly just
Voltage. Kind of like the spark plug on your lawn mower. It is not likely to kill you but it can give quite a jolt.
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Ok so it sounds like your suggesting to unscrew the heater ground going to the board and disconnect both power leads, which means the heater is literally not connected to anything via wire....and the same thing with the pumps, disconnect the ground cables from the grounding bar when testing. Got it
Your second paragraph is a little confusing to me. You mean disconnect the wires from the spa gfi breaker and the spa board just to test the integrity of those wires running through the PVC underground?
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Correct.
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Okay, so got the first trip on camera this morning, though I'm not sure how much it tells us. Here is what happened:
at 7:32:30AM both status LEDs were green. The tub attempted to kick on the jets to start what I believe to be a heat cycle and it tripped instantly (about 1 second from when the PUMP LED came on). The RED LED for heat never came on, because when it starts a heat cycle, it gets the jets going for 15 seconds before (confirmed from other videos I have) the RED LED comes on. Now, that doesn't mean the heater isn't necessarily on in those 15 seconds and getting "warmed up" or anything, that's just purely when the red LED comes on. I know it was NOT a filter session because it had filtered for 1.5hrs between 1:48am-3:20am and it only filters every 12 hrs.
So...it was either the pump (pump 1 is used to heat and that was replaced a few months ago, and I have had pump 2 disconnected and it still trip even though its not used in filtering/heating), or, was it the heater clicking on and getting ramped up even though it typically takes a few seconds after the pump turns on to get the red LED going. For what its worth, the tub had heated and filtered just fine over the past few days (on camera with the jets on and RED LED for heat). In fact, it heated from 5:54am-6:05am this same morning just fine (so about an hour and half before it tripped).
or...could it be something else? Seems unlikely since it did it specifically when the tub attempted to start up for a cycle. I will try to post videos of it happening tonight when I get home. I cant do it all from my work phone and my work PC is to locked down to access the stuff.
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If you can find out for a fact the heat relay doesn’t come on for 15 seconds that would be good information. To me most programmers would just turn it on together unless they didn’t want the inrush on the motor to hit the same instant the heater hits. I assume there is a flow sensor that wont run the heater unless water is moving.
That’s the trouble with all this computer control of equipment it is great if you know what they are doing. They can add timers and delays wherever they want. If the heater gets directly triggered by the flow sensor then one second sounds about right. But why would they delay the LED for 15 seconds? who knows.
My gut feeling is there is nothing in the controller sometimes shorting and sometimes not. Most of the time that stuff works or it doesn’t.
Sounds like it is one of two things and logic says you have already changed one of them without changing the result.
One thing for sure when you get it fixed you will be the expert here on such problems.
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Yea, just like being "voluntold" to do something at work.
I can't imagine it being pump 1 since it was replaced, and I kind of confirmed it was replaced (not rebuilt) with the sticker on the pump and the fact that it had a 2017 dated capacitor in it when its a 2016 hot tub.
When I get home I am going to try to reposition the camera (not sure if I can), because there is one more LED in the area that is on a smaller, what I believe to be, heater relay board, which is screwed into the main board. The light is always green as long as the tub is on and doesn't turn red when heating, but its just another data point. If I could get all LEDs in frame that would be great, there is just not a lot of real estate under there.
I think I am going to wait for another trip or two to make sure it is only happening when it attempts to heat, and not occasionally when it tries to filter.
The other thought I had was to open the cabinet and put a multimeter on the heater wires and force the tub to manually heat. That way I could gauge by the amp reading whether it immediately tries to power up even if the red LED doesn't come on. Does that make sense? If it does try to immediately do that, then I think it would mean my problem is the heater (also assuming it only ever trips on a heat cycle)...which would be the most ideal solution given the price and ease of swapping.
Does seem so odd that its so random of a trip and hasn't gotten any more frequent in the last year if its a heater problem, but at this stage...who the heck knows. I do know the previous owners did not do a great job with the chemicals...it apparently sat a few months with no chemicals at all in it. Suppose that could have caused corrosion, but it was still only a year.
Ill post back when there is more. Thanks for the help, Bud
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Ya if you put a amp meter or look for voltage on the heater and then just turn the temp setting in the tub up it should force the heater to kick on. You can compare the voltage to the red lights and the pump starting.
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So I did just that. Amps to heater only started when red LED went on. It was purely just the jets turning on when it tripped. Makes me think it isn't heater..but not sure what it could be now. Also confirmed pump 2 doesnt energize at all when pump 1 starts.
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You need to just go buy a new spa. ;)
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Just spent 4k on this one last year :( The only possible solution at this point seems like the board, but it just doesnt make sense. Unless somehow I got a dud pump replacement..which seems unlikely.
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If the heater didn’t fire yet then it has to be in the pump 1 electrics. Could be motor but you would have had to have two bad ones in a row (unlikely). Or someplace going back from that, wires, connection, whatever power relay controls pump 1 etc.
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I've checked the wires a bunch and megged the pump itself, all seem fine. I think I am going to call Watkins this morning. I am so tired of this
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If you insist they might put you thru to someone technically knowledgeable.
Whenever I have talked to them I get the we will pass the information on comment.
You really need to talk to their product electrical engineer.
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at this point, id be happy enough if they just sent out a tech for free who would actually try to diagnose the problem instead of sticking on a multimeter real quick and saying everything is fine
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Well now you have a movie to show whomever of a GFCI fault happening real time. and you have the problem 95% tracked down for them. If it means switching parts till its fixed they should be forced to do that.
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well its out of warranty by like 6 months but i agree since this started under warranty
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well its out of warranty by like 6 months but i agree since this started under warranty
Problem is it was never in warranty for you as you bought it secondhand correct? Did the previous owner have any issues with the tub?
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They said no, but who knows the truth. Would have thought if they had problems with it they would have gotten it fixed under warranty. As far as watkins knows, the tub has not changed ownership, the tub has simply moved to a different house with the owners, which is how I had the pump replaced under warranty
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I wish I could plug pump 2 into pump 1's slot to iron out if its the pump, but I don't think thatll work given the plumbing and differences in the pumps
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I wish I could plug pump 2 into pump 1's slot to iron out if its the pump, but I don't think thatll work given the plumbing and differences in the pumps
On my Geneva one is single speed and the other double. I don’t think that would work.
I know what you are thinking though.
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Just emailed you something that may help Gmdodt
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No real update yet. Still waiting to hear back from Caldera. Still have camera set up. Someone was nice enough to send me the Caldera Service manual :) but unfortunately its a lot less useful than I was hoping. No troubleshooting or anything in it, just simply confirmed that all the wiring and everything was correct.
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As an update - I contacted caldera and weve gone back and forth once - still waiting to hear back from them. I have now caught the tub tripping a second time on camera. Again, its instantly when the primary pump tried to turn on before a heating session (pump turns on 15 seconds before heat turns on). Keep in mind that pump was already replaced and the megger didnt read anything "off". Anyone got any thoughts?
Here are the clips of both of them tripping
https://youtu.be/j_z_fgvXRyk
https://youtu.be/S05iFr_7y3I
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Tripping issue - far fetched idea maybe....
I got a tub from a friend that either lost interest in hot tubs or may get one for inside the home. They get a brutal cold wind at the outside tub area.
Just after telling us he was gifting it, about a week later he called to say the tub was tripping his breaker. He felt he isolated this to the heater as he unhooked it and the tub pumps cycled and everything was as normal.
I was weary of how it would all work out once I got the tub to my house because I knew dropping the 20 amp draw from a heater would likely keep it from tripping but not necessarily the root cause. Potential for need to do more troubleshooting but hey, I was still getting a free hot tub !!
Add to that I'd be testing my own brand new 50 amp GFCI circuit with a tub known to have a fresh problem.
- I followed his path and ordered a new heater (balboa 5.5 kw) and put in place. Now I was real concerned because the old heater and element appeared to look like new, ohms testing was within range and no apparent short at either element post.
The tub fired up perfect and worked fine with pump/s, both speeds and new heater kicking on an off so I was very happy.
Had a co-worker look at the orignial part too and he spotted a bit of rusty looking corrosion near one of the posts for the element connection. It apears to have had moisture there and since this is inside the "brain-box" , we are thinking the water leaked inside-out from the heater tube/element through the post connection. If this only happened once or intermittently, it would explain the issue and why it tests okay now. I was releived to find this out so I have trust in it's operation and feel that was indeed the problem.
There is a nut at the base of the threaded post that is isolated from the heat tube body by a very slim margin. This corrison would have easily shorted there with some moisture that must have been there to cause the rust spot. Likely an age issue with a tub from 2005 but who's to say these fittings couldn't be leaking from new like a bad joint/gasket or seal?
As mentioned, the other way to try things out is unhook one segment at a time like the ozonator or pump one or pump 2 or even the light circuit. Anything could get some moisture in proximity at times if not draw too much current momentarily.
If that tub is tripping every few days, you might be able to find the pattern with tracking what has been isolated as this previous owner did with the heater. Most have a quick connect plug at the board.
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Tripping issue - far fetched idea maybe....
I got a tub from a friend that either lost interest in hot tubs or may get one for inside the home. They get a brutal cold wind at the outside tub area.
Just after telling us he was gifting it, about a week later he called to say the tub was tripping his breaker. He felt he isolated this to the heater as he unhooked it and the tub pumps cycled and everything was as normal.
I was weary of how it would all work out once I got the tub to my house because I knew dropping the 20 amp draw from a heater would likely keep it from tripping but not necessarily the root cause. Potential for need to do more troubleshooting but hey, I was still getting a free hot tub !!
Add to that I'd be testing my own brand new 50 amp GFCI circuit with a tub known to have a fresh problem.
- I followed his path and ordered a new heater (balboa 5.5 kw) and put in place. Now I was real concerned because the old heater and element appeared to look like new, ohms testing was within range and no apparent short at either element post.
The tub fired up perfect and worked fine with pump/s, both speeds and new heater kicking on an off so I was very happy.
Had a co-worker look at the orignial part too and he spotted a bit of rusty looking corrosion near one of the posts for the element connection. It apears to have had moisture there and since this is inside the "brain-box" , we are thinking the water leaked inside-out from the heater tube/element through the post connection. If this only happened once or intermittently, it would explain the issue and why it tests okay now. I was releived to find this out so I have trust in it's operation and feel that was indeed the problem.
There is a nut at the base of the threaded post that is isolated from the heat tube body by a very slim margin. This corrison would have easily shorted there with some moisture that must have been there to cause the rust spot. Likely an age issue with a tub from 2005 but who's to say these fittings couldn't be leaking from new like a bad joint/gasket or seal?
As mentioned, the other way to try things out is unhook one segment at a time like the ozonator or pump one or pump 2 or even the light circuit. Anything could get some moisture in proximity at times if not draw too much current momentarily.
If that tub is tripping every few days, you might be able to find the pattern with tracking what has been isolated as this previous owner did with the heater. Most have a quick connect plug at the board.
That is the function of your GFCI breaker. That little bit of corrosion you saw was a short but the reason that didn’t turn into a meltdown and possible life threatening problem is the GFCI shuts the power off the instant it detects a short to ground. If this was wired straight to the breaker in the main panel without the GFCI in line it would have eventually tripped the 50a breaker in the panel when the heater had totally melted down in flames and sent 220v thru the tub water and the combination of paths for the electric to take had totaled more than 50a. This would have taken some time could have caused a fire in the tub or electrocuted people sitting in the water.
That’s why they recommend once a month opening the GFCI panel and pushing the test buttons. Same with kitchen, bath, garage and basement GFCI 120 outlets. Hardly anyone does it but it’s a good idea because even a GFCI can fail.
In the OP’s case he tested the heater with a device called a megger that puts high voltage out enough to cause a short and measure the low resistance, and the heater tested good. He has also once changed the motor that is causing the fault. That doesn’t mean he couldn’t have got a bad motor or some of the wiring going to the motor is acting up similar to how your heater was.
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Ill also just throw in some other facts such as: my tub is only 2-3 years old, has no "other parts" expect the two pumps and heater, and I've isolated pump2 already and its not the culprit. I also cant really disconnect pump 1 or the heater or the tub wont function appropriately. To my knowledge, the heater cant be tripping the gfi because its not even powering or when the tub is tripped. The heater doesnt get energized for 15 seconds after the pump turns on, and the tub trips right when the pump kicks on.
I do appreciate the thought and advice. I'm willing to read any story that may help!
(and im not saying its not the heater, it just seems unlikely at this point)
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Do you still have the first motor that was replaced? It would be interesting to put a megger on it out of the tub and see if it showed a problem or even power it up on the bench and see if it has any problems.
If it tested good and runs you could assume its not the motor and work back from there in the wiring and such.
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I do not - I as out of town with work when the tech came and replaced it. What the tech said is that they have to send the pump back to watkins for them to check it out and if there really is a problem with it, then they get reimbursed for it. This is the reason he wouldnt replace any other parts on the tub until he could nail down the culprit. Luckily, for that initial pump, it was leaking (barely) and he could see the white water stain on the wood of the cabinet
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That is the function of your GFCI breaker. That little bit of corrosion you saw was a short but the reason that didn’t turn into a meltdown and possible life threatening problem is the GFCI shuts the power off the instant it detects a short to ground. If this was wired straight to the breaker in the main panel without the GFCI in line it would have eventually tripped the 50a breaker in the panel when the heater had totally melted down in flames and sent 220v thru the tub water and the combination of paths for the electric to take had totaled more than 50a. This would have taken some time could have caused a fire in the tub or electrocuted people sitting in the water.
Yeah, pretty happy I didn't experience any shut down or tripping issues nor can I speak first hand of the previous situation.
Just speculation the on the old heater. I think there is a chance it would have been intermittent as well although that can be dictated in some cases by frequency of use, where and when water gets into things, how long it takes and the same to dry out etc...
Safety is the key though and the test button reminder is good for all.
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Newest update is it tripped this AM. THIS TIME it still tripped when the pump tried to kick on but it was a filter session, which now kind of confirms that I dont think it has anything to do with the heat.
Seems like board or pump to me..
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Mine samples temp in that cycle I think but probably a delayed response from the pump coming on if the heat is needed.
I do think most filter cycle's are the lower pump speed and a very low amp draw. Maybe this will help further isolate though.
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Yes, it is the low speed of the primary pump that is trying to come on. It may do some testing of the temp, but that wouldn't involved the heater, at least not immediately. The fact that is happening right when the pump tried to turn on either to do a filter or heating session makes me think its not a heater or related sensor (flow or temperature sensor). Just cant figure out what else it could be. New pump which has a newer capacitor. Wires seem okay (i dont think they were replaced with the pump, i think he just replaced the pump and they are wrapped together except at the ends)
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Sure sounds like one of those places. For it to trip the GFCI it has to be leaking the threshold current level to ground someplace. I think it is 5ma. A wire barely grounding to something metal or the ground wire seeing a crack in the hot wire insulation etc. Same with the motor, a winding going to ground once in a while. Intermittent minor grounds like this are often moisture related.
Once again the megger is the tool to find this.
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Okay I'm gonna ask neighbor if I cam borrow it. Can you detail, as specifically as possible, what testing I should do and how to do it. I really need a step by step here..
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bump. Not sure what all to do with this megger :x
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Sorry for not getting back sooner.
You have found the problem to be in the one pump motor circuit and can now eliminate everything else we hope. So what do you have there a motor. Some wires running to it and some device telling it to turn on and then conducting the current to the motor. The megger can help you out with the motor and wires for sure if one or the other is intermittently going to ground very slightly. The tub needs to be shut down 100% and the things being tested need to be disconnected 100% so that’s removing the wires from the motor and removing the other end of the wires from whatever controls them. it is important the free ends are also not touching anything or each other. You need to also make sure you are not touching anything being charged during the test. This kind of wire is good for 600v+ so I would do the testing at 500v.
If you can rule out the motor and the wires then you are left with the control device. If there is a relay or motor starter that could also be tested if you can isolate it from the computer outputting the low voltage signal to the device. I would start with the simple part motor first then wiring.
There are dozens of video tutorials on line here is one. I found quickly. I would suggest watching a few as everyone relates differently to instruction videos. Be careful and the idea is to keep eliminating things one by one.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TdeU6UCCfTY
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Thanks bud. Ironically I had watched both videos that guy produced on the topic. I just wish someone did it on actual hot tub parts so that I could clearly compare what's I need to do. For example, the hot tub pump has a ground going to the main board and a ground going to the grounding bar on the heater. I assume I'd disconnect both as well as the two power leads. If that's done then the question is do you clamp one end on one of the power leads and the other on one of the grounds..if so which one. These are the types things I just dont know and why I need some hand holding
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All the grounds are common as is the motor housing. I would disconnect it all and megger from power leads to the case. 500v and resistance should be 1M ohms or more. If you get a lower resistance that allows as little as 5ma to pass it will trip the GFCI. 5ma is not much current at all.
The idea is the increased voltage should cause an insulation fault reading where 240v 120v to ground won’t fault unless say it is damp or something. Intermittent problem.
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So in an interesting turn of events:
I contacted Watkins via phone. This gentleman was supposed to talk to a tech and get back to me. Never did. So 15 days later I called again and spoke a nice women. She did speak to her tech and even patched me to him. We discussed all the trouble shooting I have done (primary pump replaces, isolated pump 2, replaced breaker and wires, and confirmed it wasn't heater as it happens during filter session) and he agrees that it could be the main board. They are sending me a new board, preprogrammed with the newest software for free even though it's about a year out of warranty. Hopefully it fixes it but if not, he said to call back. I guess they are in the holiday spirit ;) I'll keep posted, though itll take a few months to confirm it's working right
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So in an interesting turn of events:
I contacted Watkins via phone. This gentleman was supposed to talk to a tech and get back to me. Never did. So 15 days later I called again and spoke a nice women. She did speak to her tech and even pat her me to him. We discussed all the trouble shooting I have done (primary pump replaces, isolated pump 2, replaced breaker and wires, and confirmed it wasn't heater as it happens during filter session) and he agrees that it could be the main board. They are sending me a new board, preprogrammed with the newest software for free even though it's about a year out of warranty. Hopefully it fixes it but if not, he said to call back. I guess they are in the holiday spirit ;) I'll keep posted, though itll take a few months to confirm it's working right
That's great to hear. For you and for me down the road if i ever need some help from them. Keep us posted.
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I'm just praying it fixes the problem. Not sure what else it could be. The heater, maybe, but it has happened on a filter session before, though it was only once. Most of the time it trips before a heating session but there's also a lot more heating sessions then filter sessions, so could just be coincidence
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Standing behind their product that way is pretty outstanding.
Best of luck on that situation. 8)
To stand the test of time or reveal a positive outcome, how long do you feel it will take … ie; Was the breaker issue happening every few days or weekly ?
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i think it really depends on how often the tub runs. Right now, as it is colder, it is turning on to heat much more frequently so its tripping more frequently...2, 3, 4 days. Actually tripped 2 times in 24 hrs at one point, which is rare. During the summer it could go 2-3 weeks without tripping. It won't have to perform probably 2-3 months for me to feel real confident. Which also makes follow up with caldera difficult because they will think the issue is resolved if I dont call them back soon after getting the board.
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Well, amazingly they overnight aired it so the board came today. Newer board, much easier connectors. Took about an hour but got it in. Fired right up. Now the waiting game to see if it is actually fixed!
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Summer weeks without tripping sure seems evidentiary versus colder temps.
I'd imagine the cover off part time creating more load might get you a faster test but I'd likely leave things well enough alone letting it prove itself under the conditions presented. That can be easily explained to the vendor and the new board should indeed rule something In or Out. Wishing you the best in results.
I operate on a 100 amp household presently and just try being smart about what's running "at the moment" since adding the new 50 amp tie in. Pretty sure I want to avoid the oven and the dryer running with the tub on turbo mode. Our pre-owned tub had the heater tripping at the last household (orig owner) so I was on pins and needles hoping/assuming the new heater I bought and put in would be answer and of course, the big test. One month in as of now. :)
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Yea in just letting the tub operate as normal. The tub never trips once it's running, it's the act of trying to get it running is when it was tripping.
Luckily our house was built new in 2012 and has like 200amp service (have to go look at exact number)
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1 week and 2 days since replacing board. Tub has not tripped. Need much bigger sample time but so far so good
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1 week and 2 days since replacing board. Tub has not tripped. Need much bigger sample time but so far so good
I think you got it this time. I'm knocking on wood so you don't have to. You ran the problem back to only two possible causes, The wires or the board. It is pretty hard for a wire problem in the first place let alone an intermittent problem and that is mostly in stuff that jumps around like cars.
It was really good of Caldera to honor the warranty for you. Makes me feel good about my tub also.
Good luck keeping fingers crossed for you and now you are the megger expert in the neighborhood.