After I started taking my time, I really enjoyed myself. I have seen all that I need to see. Now I just need to decide which one's I like the best. Hotsprings, Caldera, and Jacuzzi are my probable finalists. There is a D1 I have my eye on, but I don't think I will be able to get them in my price range.
I guess I too am a bit confused. Didn't you state in a recent post that Jacuzzi Jets just didn't do anything for you and you has eliminated them? No problem if you did but this post seems to list them as one of your finalist.
Solo do you wear a helmet when you get your weekend passes?
Steve...You poor thing. You haven't figured out that you don't actually need to click on every message that is posted in the forum.
Did you happen to go to school on the short bus when you were a kid?
I don't get this one. Do you mind explaining?
Pure curiosity here... what is with grown men making jokes about short buses I've never understood about this. Is the next punch gonna be Solo saying well, your mama.
Great question my dear... SOLO?
And I believe the correct phrase is YO MAMA! ;)
Ah yes, you would be right, there went my street cred I was working so hard on. Dang.
I'm just gonna say what everyone else is thinking...[size=48]WHO CARES!![/size]::)
Your last 43 posts are no different from one another and it seems you haven't progressed at all. Continuing to name the spas "you are considering" is not only boring but...well...it's just plain boring...
I know I said I wouldn't respond to this guy who just seems to be toying with us but the idea that ANYBODY still cares is becoming minimal.
I care. This has been one of the more exciting sagas I have read in a long, long time.
I thought you liked Bullfrog and it wet tested well, what happened to them? Which d1 you have your eye on?
I made an illegal u-turn......LOL
Solo- Just buy the thing. Any of them will be better then sitting on your couch. Don't let the best season to tub go by. Get off the dime and spend that fisrt holy communion money you've been hiding!
Getterdone! ;)
What spa did you settle on?? or your trying to get!!
Yeah, I wouldn't call it "settling" because they are all great tubs. But the ones I am ready to buy are:
Caldera Geneva
Hotsprings Envoy
Jacuzzi J-365
It will probably end up being the Jacuzzi as the Caldera and HS dealers and I just can't agree on price. Whoever calls with the deal I am looking for will get my business. 3 solid spas in my opinion.
Yeah, I wouldn't call it "settling" because they are all great tubs. But the ones I am ready to buy are:
Caldera Geneva
Hotsprings Envoy
Jacuzzi J-365
It will probably end up being the Jacuzzi as the Caldera and HS dealers and I just can't agree on price. Whoever calls with the deal I am looking for will get my business. 3 solid spas in my opinion.
Dealers: Am I correct in saying that the margins on the actual tubs are not huge and you make much of your income from chemicals, filters, funky lights and little ducks that float in the tub? If that is the case, I definately would not give this solo guy a deal on a tub. He is not going to buy his chems and filters from the dealer. He is going to go online and put his consumables out for tender.
Some customers tend to forget that a relationship with their dealer should be give and take. Then when its January and your tub is about to turn into a block of ice the dealer wont tell you they have a 2 week back log on service calls.
You are incorrect. The MAJORITY of profit comes from selling the tubs themselves. The side business of chems and filters may be larger in some markets than in others and some may not even offer chems. Depends on the market. I can see a business model where the chems might simply be a nuaces
Thanks for clearing that up for me. I didnt have a clue. On a $10,000 tub, how much would a dealer typically make? Does the profit cover service work down the road?
Do you really expect a dealer to share this publicly. It's rather personal, don't you think? Like us asking you what your salary is.
.
With the next one I might make the offer face to face rather than over the phone. If they see that I am actually ready to write the check and not going to pick up the phone and shop the price, maybe that will make a difference.
most retailers are sharp when it comes to judging a customers intentions. the offer, cash check plastic or whatever, must first be reasonable. if you spend hours with a sales person, lob a low ball offer at them, well lower than reasonable.......the consumer should not get mad if its not accepted...the dealer should be angry because so much time was wasted with someone who doesn't understand the product......doesnt see the dealers value proposition or does and still lobs out a low ball offer. not all customers are good customers.......
With the next one I might make the offer face to face rather than over the phone.
Solo,
We all know that you see the value in the spas you are considering. The problem here is that you have decided that your amount of spending is capped off, so it is a complete waste of time for the dealer/salesperson. When you spend a fair amount of time with a potential customer you tend to build a relationship with them in hopes of earning their business. Most companies want to earn your business, keep you happy, and hopefully (and with you) a big hopefully you find enjoyment in your spa and refer more people to enter the dealer's showroom. When a potential customer is UNWILLING to compromise on a sale price because of unreal expectations it does tend to rub a salesperson the wrong way. Whether it should is a complete different thing. No it's not personal when a customer doesn't purchase a spa, but, it does leave a bad taste in our mouths. Companies have to have integrity in what they sell. If one of the companies meet you price requirements what will happen when you recieve your spa, enjoy it, and start to refer people to that company. The second thing you will tell your friends (stated loosely) what the price of the spa was that you paid. Now, if you were to purchase either watkins product for that price, you would have received that steal of the year. That being said, if one of your referrals happen to come through the doors, they would expect the same price. Do you see yet how just one customer effects the entire flow for a company? Each potential customer is worth 10-15 times more than their original purchase. You're asking a company to potentially loose a considerable amount of revenue. Just imagine your clients over time reducing your wages, not real fair is it? I don't expect you to agree with me because of your narrowed way of thinking. Close to everyone on this site is very tired of seeing your posts. Now we are just people posting on a forum and you can piss us off. We aren't even trying to sell you a spa. Now imagine the salesperson trying to deal with you. Can you see why the would be angry at a customer such as yourself? Good Luck!!!
You on the other hand will be sitting by the phone just like your waiting for that girl to call.
We could debate this issue all day if we wanted to. But nobody is learning anything from these posts, and that's the reason most of us visit this board. And to get some comic relief from persons such as Term! :D I'm finding myself going back and reading posts in previous years....I'm getting a lot more useful information from those than wasting my time reading these meaningless posts....
This whole thing reminds me of that scene from "2001". We're like those monkeys looking at that big black obelisk thingy. We can't understand it, so we keep staring at it. Then, we start throwing sticks and rocks at it, but it just sits there, silently, doing nothing.
Eventually, we're all going to go nuts and kill the neighboring monkeys with sticks. And Solo will turn buy a spa, and throw it up into the air, and it will turn into a space station. The end.
Solo,
We all know that you see the value in the spas you are considering. The problem here is that you have decided that your amount of spending is capped off, so it is a complete waste of time for the dealer/salesperson. When you spend a fair amount of time with a potential customer you tend to build a relationship with them in hopes of earning their business. Most companies want to earn your business, keep you happy, and hopefully (and with you) a big hopefully you find enjoyment in your spa and refer more people to enter the dealer's showroom. When a potential customer is UNWILLING to compromise on a sale price because of unreal expectations it does tend to rub a salesperson the wrong way. Whether it should is a complete different thing. No it's not personal when a customer doesn't purchase a spa, but, it does leave a bad taste in our mouths. Companies have to have integrity in what they sell. If one of the companies meet you price requirements what will happen when you recieve your spa, enjoy it, and start to refer people to that company. The second thing you will tell your friends (stated loosely) what the price of the spa was that you paid. Now, if you were to purchase either watkins product for that price, you would have received that steal of the year. That being said, if one of your referrals happen to come through the doors, they would expect the same price. Do you see yet how just one customer effects the entire flow for a company? Each potential customer is worth 10-15 times more than their original purchase. You're asking a company to potentially loose a considerable amount of revenue. Just imagine your clients over time reducing your wages, not real fair is it? I don't expect you to agree with me because of your narrowed way of thinking. Close to everyone on this site is very tired of seeing your posts. Now we are just people posting on a forum and you can piss us off. We aren't even trying to sell you a spa. Now imagine the salesperson trying to deal with you. Can you see why the would be angry at a customer such as yourself? Good Luck!!!
I certainly don't expect dealers to bend over for me, nor would I want them to. I simply know what I'm willing to pay for something and don't bend from that. I then let the dealer decide if it is in his best interest to sell me a tub. I'm not mad at them if they don't. I trust that they know what will be good business decision for them.
If I were going to take the "meet half way approach", I would have started my offers with a much lower number. Rather, I chose not to play that game and made firm cash offers. I did that with 2 dealers and will probably do so again real soon with a 3rd. With the next one I might make the offer face to face rather than over the phone. If they see that I am actually ready to write the check and not going to pick up the phone and shop the price, maybe that will make a difference.
...you were in Steve's kitchen,
Over the PHONE? That will NOT work! People calling on the phone (for ANY business) are usually just price comparison. ALL OFFERS MUST BE MADE IN PERSON. No WONDER your not getting the discounts you are asking for. Even telling them you will give them CASH means ABSOLUTELY NOTHING over the phone! Get out there and "do it in person" or don't do it at all!
I chuckled over this post.....Take it from an old sales dog....times are a changin...
I just bought a 56k new BMW over the phone. Never went to the dealer until I needed to sign papers.
The guy emailed me the info and the quotes ....back and forth we wnet...now I wasn't a schmuck like solo and trie to drive the guy into a no margin deal...I wanted to get a fair deal. I did .....he was very responsive over email....so I bought it.
I knocked on doors for almost 2 decades selling hardware...took all the sales courses...that's too hard. I presently run an e-commerce shop. ALL of our SALES come through the internet and the phone. We almost never need the person to come and visit.
Now I will get the "glen gary glenn ross" old tub sales guys telling me I do not know the business....come on dude...ABC....I know the game...but do not discount new technology and how you can get customers to buy. Most affluent customers...the ones you want....not solo...who wants a win/lose relationship just need information. Give it to them the way THE CUSTMOER wants to receive it. Do not be the order prevention department.
OK...gotta answer the phones...customers are calling and they are buying....
A good morning Rant is always fun.
Over the PHONE? That will NOT work! People calling on the phone (for ANY business) are usually just price comparison. ALL OFFERS MUST BE MADE IN PERSON. No WONDER your not getting the discounts you are asking for. Even telling them you will give them CASH means ABSOLUTELY NOTHING over the phone! Get out there and "do it in person" or don't do it at all!
I chuckled over this post.....Take it from an old sales dog....times are a changin...
I just bought a 56k new BMW over the phone. Never went to the dealer until I needed to sign papers.
The guy emailed me the info and the quotes ....back and forth we wnet...now I wasn't a schmuck like solo and trie to drive the guy into a no margin deal...I wanted to get a fair deal. I did .....he was very responsive over email....so I bought it.
I knocked on doors for almost 2 decades selling hardware...took all the sales courses...that's too hard. I presently run an e-commerce shop. ALL of our SALES come through the internet and the phone. We almost never need the person to come and visit.
Now I will get the "glen gary glenn ross" old tub sales guys telling me I do not know the business....come on dude...ABC....I know the game...but do not discount new technology and how you can get customers to buy. Most affluent customers...the ones you want....not solo...who wants a win/lose relationship just need information. Give it to them the way THE CUSTMOER wants to receive it. Do not be the order prevention department.
OK...gotta answer the phones...customers are calling and they are buying....
A good morning Rant is always fun.
And I just thought that was the smell of rotting food...
WOOHOO, now I'm in HIS kitchen, in complete control and have dominion over him right repeat? That doesn't sound the least bit dramatic, sensational or exaggerated at all... ::) ;D
Over the PHONE? That will NOT work! People calling on the phone (for ANY business) are usually just price comparison. ALL OFFERS MUST BE MADE IN PERSON. No WONDER your not getting the discounts you are asking for. Even telling them you will give them CASH means ABSOLUTELY NOTHING over the phone! Get out there and "do it in person" or don't do it at all!
I chuckled over this post.....Take it from an old sales dog....times are a changin...
I just bought a 56k new BMW over the phone. Never went to the dealer until I needed to sign papers.
The guy emailed me the info and the quotes ....back and forth we wnet...now I wasn't a schmuck like solo and trie to drive the guy into a no margin deal...I wanted to get a fair deal. I did .....he was very responsive over email....so I bought it.
I knocked on doors for almost 2 decades selling hardware...took all the sales courses...that's too hard. I presently run an e-commerce shop. ALL of our SALES come through the internet and the phone. We almost never need the person to come and visit.
Now I will get the "glen gary glenn ross" old tub sales guys telling me I do not know the business....come on dude...ABC....I know the game...but do not discount new technology and how you can get customers to buy. Most affluent customers...the ones you want....not solo...who wants a win/lose relationship just need information. Give it to them the way THE CUSTMOER wants to receive it. Do not be the order prevention department.
OK...gotta answer the phones...customers are calling and they are buying....
A good morning Rant is always fun.
Steve-
The point I was making is that there are many new and old ways to get the job done. If you did not see The Office last week try to see it. It was about the new "manager" telling all the workers how things were going to change.
I would agree that getting somneone in the showroom is a good thing.....and a wet test is very importanat. But the first impression is more in line with what I am speaking.
When I went to purchase the car....I wanted basic information....and pricing. I was very specific on the info I needed. The reason I needed it was to start to get my self educated on this large purchase. One guy would not send me the info I needed...I had to come and see him....afraid not big guy. I bought from a dealer an hour from here.....I drove by 3 other BMW dealers on the way. It was all based on my first impression that the fast turn around on information and follow up made the difference. So many sales guys try to push the customer into their sales model versus finding out how the customer will buy.
Then again there are tire kickers that come in person and do it over the phone!!
My opinion of this thread.
[url](http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd6/JimA81/deadhorse-1.jpg)
Brookenstein...My comments were not directed towards you nor your sons. Not to mention, this IS the internet afterall. If I got bent out of shape over every rude or inconsiderate comment made, I would be clinically depressed.
Take your own advice and get over yourself already. I don't know you. You don't know me. Why would you let comments of a complete satranger that were not directed towards you piss you off?
This may just be "the interent" to you but to most of us here, we have friends that we respect. You dissrespected someone here that we value and I would just think an apology is in order since Brookenstein was offended by your comments.
My point is that was that constant comments about short bus riders were immature that was it. I took no personal offense to it. I just think it is kind of funny that grown men think that is a worthy insult. Oooh when you were a small child you rode a short bus, yeah you know what you also sh!t your pants too. Not really a big deal.
Jerry, you gotta be here a little longer to read us all the riot act
Solo, why do you need such a big tub?? If its only you, you should just buy your name handle and go with the Sundance Solo. If you were actually entertaining people Im sure your buddies would kick in the extra 5 for the tub.
Brookenstein...My comments were not directed towards you nor your sons. Not to mention, this IS the internet afterall.
So being the "internet", it's ok to be rude?
I agree with looking at something smaller, Solo, that will be lower in price. And as everyone else has suggested in one form or another, you might think about not trying to out deal the dealers. Offer a FAIR price for the model and if they don't take your offer realize that it is what it is and you need to go up in price or walk on. You really have no idea what the dealers pay for their tubs and what their overhead is with rent being based on location, etc., so you are only guessing at what YOU think is fair for a profit. You also need to take your own advice and stop wanting to defend yourself or tell others not to take things personally and you might stop reporting every move that you make now that you realize so many on the forum don't want to hear it, LOL. Let us know if there is a question or when you are done with your purchase. Then tell us your story and send pics!!
To an extent, I have taken your advice. I have offered what I consider to be fair prices to the dealers. They have opted not to take my offer and I have walked and moved on. What's wrong with that?
If the dealer doesn't think my offer is fair, I would gladly sit down with them and REALISTICALLY discuss what a fair offer is. If they want to show me their expenses and invoice for the spa from the manufacturer, I will gladly add $1500 to their cost. But I bet you won't see any dealers lining up to take that deal will you?
One countered and one didn't get back to me. So what does that say?
Regardless...it doesn't really matter. My dealers know my price point and when they want to sell me a hot tub, they know what they need to do. I'm willing to wait and confident that a deal will get done. Why not just just drop it and see what pans out?
One countered and one didn't get back to me. So what does that say?
Regardless...it doesn't really matter. My dealers know my price point and when they want to sell me a hot tub, they know what they need to do. I'm willing to wait and confident that a deal will get done. Why not just just drop it and see what pans out?
One countered and one didn't get back to me. So what does that say?
Regardless...it doesn't really matter. My dealers know my price point and when they want to sell me a hot tub, they know what they need to do. I'm willing to wait and confident that a deal will get done. Why not just just drop it and see what pans out?
It doesn't tell us anything we don't already know. We know you're making lowball offers hoping someone is desparate and will bite. That is your right to do; we just object when you try to say you're making fair offers. Your offers are not based on what the spas are worth. They are based on two things:
1) How much cash want to part with,
2) Your desire to get a price that is beyond fair; one to write home to mom about (or to yell upstairs to her about).
I think you should continue to just go to your health club, and forget a hot tub all together. It's great that you are managing, so why stress over this? Just forget the hot tub. Like my electric company told me...it's just a big hot water heater sitting on my deck...you might get even more stressed at the cost to run it and the cost to maintain it. Let's face it, hot tubs aren't for everyone! And if you haggle and squeeze out this deal you are hoping for, you may not get very good dealer support...that would be another stressful situation. I say just forget it solo! :-/
I REALLY wanted to buy a Sundance. I just don't like their spas enough to buy one.
What kinda idiotic statement is that?
Please, WTBHT community, let this and all other SOLO posts wither. I used to be entertained by this guy's annoying lunacy, but it is way past old. Don't reply, no matter what garbage he posts and he will most likely go away. Let him get on with torturing small animals, or whatever he does for kicks.
txwillie
PS...Why tell other posters in the forum what posts to respond to? Do you think that you are msarter than them or that they should listen to you for some reason? Just curious. Maybe I'm just more into independent thought than you are. But I feel that most people in this group are probably smart enough to decide on their own which posts they want to read and reply to.
This string is at least fun to read....
Solo- In the ennd your right....you will buy when your ready. My question to you.....what was the last thing you bought ....lets say that cost more then $750
Are you this particular about spending your dollars on every purchase?
I have to admit, I am tight with the buck.....but the one thing you do after you finish an exhaustive search and buy....is say.....jes, I should of done this sooner.
Hope you get a tub ......sooner then later.
Solo,
The only reason I encourage you to "buy, buy, buy" now, is because you say it is truly for therapy. And, you have stated you have a source for the extra money. Seems like you are punishing yourself. :'(
It took me 4 months to buy my last car even though I knew what I wanted on day 1. I ended up buying my Honda Accord during the last week of December in the year I got it. So on MAJOR purchases, I do a ton of research, establish my price, and wait for that price. It's a practice that has saved me thousands of dollars through the years.
Single Guy:
Premium line for those with over $70K/year in income
Mid-line for those with over $50K/year income
Don't bother for thos with less than $40K/year income.
This probably varies greatly by area. Where are you located?
The big city of Charlotte, NC (not really so big and the cost of living here is actually considerably cheaper than up north). Taxes are about 25% here of what they are in NJ (new 4,000 sq ft homes on a new 4-star golf course with nearby shopping are $500K and property taxes are around $4,500/year vs. NJ where the same EXACT house by the same EXACT builder (but it not on a golf course) is $800K and property taxes are $18K/year. Most middle class ($300K home) here make around $80K/year or so. Those making between $100K and $150K live in neighborhoods like this one. Like any other town, there is another COMPLETE level of income for others where they are bringing in WELL over $200K/year. Some are dual income doctor/dentist husband/wife which almost seems common around here. Those are the ones paying cash for the few million dollar 6,500 sq ft. homes in this neighborhood. They are also the ones that might just pick out a tub based on if the color matched their decor rather than any concerns about price. Too bad I never did start that Hot Tub business 3 years ago...
Someone making $80K a year isn't able to afford a $300K house with only 20% down. This is why the whole sub prime problem is happening. According to the banker I went to (the one who I went to for the mortgage on this home) a person's mortgage (PITI) is supposed to occupy only 28% of the monthly income. 28% of $80K is $22400 or $1867/month
Although if you sold a house in NJ and used that money for the purchase ... you'd be sitting pretty!
Someone making $80K a year isn't able to afford a $300K house with only 20% down. This is why the whole sub prime problem is happening. According to the banker I went to (the one who I went to for the mortgage on this home) a person's mortgage (PITI) is supposed to occupy only 28% of the monthly income. 28% of $80K is $22400 or $1867/month
Although if you sold a house in NJ and used that money for the purchase ... you'd be sitting pretty!
The big city of Charlotte, NC (not really so big and the cost of living here is actually considerably cheaper than up north).
I AM CONFUSED!!!!
Why are all of you giving SOLO more advice and/or comments. He has made his choice that he "IS FINISHED LOOKING AT HOT TUBS", [glow][/glow] So, in my opinion the title speakes for itself.....he's done!!!!! Let him do what he neds to do, i.e. find and buy a spa!
Let's leave him/it alone. When he FINALLY Purchases A Spa & Proves It...POST THE PHOTO"S...Until then I am through with this nonsense....It makes me YAWN, big time!
This will be the last post I make to member SOLO, until he has a purchase of a PAID FOR SPA!!!! I am sooooo Bored with this....YAWN!!!! ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::)
I AM CONFUSED!!!!
Why are all of you giving SOLO more advice and/or comments.
Sounds like a good time for a moderator to CLOSE this thread (since it's gone so far off subject and all ;) ;)
Mr. Moderator, I move this thread be relocated to 'Beating a Dead Horse'. :-X
Can I get a 'Second'?
Research is ALWAYS good! That is EXACTLY what these forums are here for. Your not the first newbie to come on here wanting to get something for nothing. You are already seeing the effects of this learning process having realized that dealers are only willing to go so far without any benefit back to them. If you can SHOW PROOF that you can generate 3 additional sales for them, then you can probably get the discounts you are seeking. Consider starting a local buying club with your neighbors for hot tubs. Narrow it down to one MFG and then all of you go in and work a deal.
Congrats on the Accord. They are good solid reliable cars (We have owned 3 of them). While it could be considered a "big ticket" item, they may not actually be that expensive (comparatively speaking). I currently have an Acura TL as I saw the cost benefits of the leather (std), Memory seats (std), Sunroof (std), optional NAVI, Std Bluetooth integration 3 years ago before any other mfg was doing it as well as the updated styling and was "more than willing" to pay what I felt was a minor increase in price over the Accord
However, the fact that you bough the accord does demonstrate what type of buyer you probably are. If I was selling you a spa, I might see your car and ask you "how do you like the Accord" before EVER trying to even talk to you about Spa's. It would help me understand what you want without even talking about Spa's.
If you reply. It's GREAT! The BEST value for my money EVER spent! I can't see why ANYONE would buy a Acura TL over the Accord because the TL is $8K more expensive....tells me the following:
1. You don't see a justification of a premium brand over the non-premium
2. You spend only what is needed to meet your transportation requirements
3. Reliability is more important that "frills"
These are all GOOD things and can be used to help understand the best tub for you
My second question might be "Which engine did you get in it"?
You may be thinking that I really care enough to drill into the car you like so much but
the reality is that I am trying to further qualify you as a buyer. If you respond "I got the
Hybrid and can get 1.3 gazillion miles to the gal by hypermiling.... I then know that you
place economy over performance and therefore you would probably also want a more
economical spa rather than one with HUGE pumps (ala Bullfrog).
PS - My wife's car is a Hybrid SUV.
Your response would tell me Wants power but wouldn't pay $2K for a NAVI system
built into the car when you could just as easily buy a $400 Garmen, right?
Based on these observations, I would probably lead you to either the Tiger River or 300-series Jacuzzi lines. Seems the PREMIUM lines are just out of reach and you can't justify the additional $'s then these products "SHOULD" fit you to a T. It not that salesman are trying to "down sell" you but rather that they are directing you to the products that seem to fit your nature.
In fact, you may well be able to buy one of those units for LESS than your current budget leaving cash left over. In some cases the only things you are giving up in this trade off may be a basic as the tub having plastic escrutions instead of stainless steel ones (not a real big deal anyway and not something you would even think twice about a year down the road).
Guidelines for a typical Family of four (Homemaker working wife)...
Unless you (easily) make over $100K/year, don't bother with the highest line models, they aren't made to be sold to you (i.e. They generally won't discount them as much as you would like because the don't NEED TOO)
If you don't make at LEAST $80K a year don't bother with the mid-tier models as it may be a stretch for you to afford it as well as the $'s required for the installation ($900.00 or so in ADDITION to the tub itself for electricity, foundation, etc).
If you don't make at least $50K, don't bother with a hot tub as you are already (more than likely) struggling to simply make it month to month
Single Guy:
Premium line for those with over $70K/year in income
Mid-line for those with over $50K/year income
Don't bother for thos with less than $40K/year income.
NOTE: This may have been a long read :o but at least I broke it up into paragraphs this time! LOL!
ndabunka, I didn't know you were a dealer? What brand do you sell?
I'd bet ndabunka would make a good dealer. He has lots of good ideas and seems to have a good business mind.....