Hot Tub Forum
Original => Hot Tub Forum => Topic started by: CalicoskiesNC on June 17, 2004, 09:40:44 am
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We've read that the cd ozone puts out as much as 4 times the ozone but that the uv light ozone works well enuf, been around for years. Jacuzzi dealer tells us that when cd came out they pushed and sold bunches of them, then about 12-15mo later found out they were having to replace a huge number of them right after warranty runs out. Said that the cost of the chip replacement was high and that after replacing the chip found out that sometimes the entire unit needed replacing. So his shop quit selling the cd ozonators and only use UV now. Any comments on this? Seems everyone wants cd ozone, but is UV acceptable too? If we pushed him we might be able to get a cd unit.
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Funny that you posted this... I was going to post something similar this morning. I'll be interested to hear the feedback in terms of performance or cost of repairs between the two.
Ken
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There are two types of UV ozonators: Solid State and Ballast. Ballast will only last around 9000 hours then the bulb needs to be replaced. The solid state ones will last much, much longer and you never need to touch them.
I do not care for CD ozonators at all. The reason is simple; if I can get an ozonator to a consumer that will last many, many years and it never has to be touched, or compared to a UV one were the bulb will wear out in about 9000 hours or a CD one that will require maintenance in the next 1-3 years.
Gary
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Our SD guy says the SunZone has a ceramic chip that should last at least 5yrs. The Jacuzzi guy was not clear about solid state or ballast, but we will ask that today. It doesnt sound like I should be worried about either, they will both work well and I might just be replacing a bulb in 9000 hours? That doesnt sound like a big concern. I just want one that works well. I'll be sharing this tub with 3 boys and their numerous friends and I'm a bit of a germophobe already!
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The chip may last that long but it will requiring cleaning way before that. Who pays for that!.
Gary
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I don't know what Gary means by a "solid state" system. The two systems I know are used on spas are corona discharge (CD) and ultraviolet lamp (UV, lamp runs off a ballast). I would opt for a good balance between functionality, ease of use, and cost. Most UV lamps that I have seen are good for about 1 year of continuous use (=8760 hours). As the bulb ages, the UV output and consequently ozone production, falls. I am not familiar with the lamps used in spa ozonators, but the UV lamps I have used in the past are considerably more expensive than comparably sized bulbs of other types. Maintenance on UV systems is minimal unless the bulb is in a dusty environment. Primary Cost=new bulb yearly
CD systems can produce much more ozone. I see this as a big positive provided the spa is designed to utilize the ozone properly and not simply create trapped ozone under the cover. I was surprised to find that there are no studies on the effectiveness of using ozone in spas, and since it is only effective while in contact with the water and it dissipates quickly, I would go for the highest concentration I could in the contact chamber. Yes, keeping the discharge surfaces clean is important in maintaining good ozone output, but good design can minimize this task. Primary cost=cleaning electrodes X times per year
Now, what I've said is all "in theory". I don't design or service spas, so someone, like Gary, who sees many these devices in operation can provide the data on how well the theory got translated into reality. I opted for the Sundance CD system on my new spa.
Starlight
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CD systems can produce much more ozone. I see this as a big positive provided the spa is designed to utilize the ozone properly and not simply create trapped ozone under the cover. I was surprised to find that there are no studies on the effectiveness of using ozone in spas, and since it is only effective while in contact with the water and it dissipates quickly, I would go for the highest concentration I could in the contact chamber. Yes, keeping the discharge surfaces clean is important in maintaining good ozone output, but good design can minimize this task. Primary cost=cleaning electrodes X times per year
Now, what I've said is all "in theory". I don't design or service spas, so someone, like Gary, who sees many these devices in operation can provide the data on how well the theory got translated into reality. I opted for the Sundance CD system on my new spa.
Starlight
CD type operation can be adversely effected by high humidity. My understanding is they do not work well in very humid conditions and can produce nitric acid under those conditions. In other words CD Ozinators work best in very dry atmospheric conditons. Commercial applications use air dryers.
As best as I can find out UV contact tubes should be six feet, and CD contact tubes up to twenty five feet long.
People have posted about solid state ballast, I assume using UV, but who makes them. I would like to see a web link.
I am looking for more information on Ozinator types, their benefits , negatives, and the name of the manufacturers.
I have not seen replacement bulbs offered on the Net. Has anyone got a link?
On Hot Tubs that have a 24/7 circ system the ozinator is running all the time, however with systems using only jet pumps, the ozinator is on only when the jet pump is running. So a UV system which does not produce as much ozone as CD works well on 24./7 circ systems. CD systems which produce more ozone do so with jet pumps over a much shorter period of time, possibly two to six hours a day to do the same job. Because CD systems produce more ozone they require a longer length contact tube.
I hope others can add to this in a positive and informative way. Thanks
Regards Zz
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My Jacuzzi dealer said that to replace the bulb would cost as much as the new unit so he advises replacing the unit instead.
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Zz,
Marquis offers a solid state ozonator standard on each Marquis spa sold..it . It is installed at the factory, it is a UV type but does not use a ballast, In testing I am told that they can last for as long as 7 years and each time they light, the ozone is exactly the same as day one.....it requires no maintence...It has a 3 year warranty and the cost to replace it is under 200.00 dollars...not including a service tech to install it for you if you so wish...
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Zz,
Marquis offers a solid state ozonator standard on each Marquis spa sold..it . It is installed at the factory, it is a UV type but does not use a ballast, In testing I am told that they can last for as long as 7 years and each time they light, the ozone is exactly the same as day one.....it requires no maintence...It has a 3 year warranty and the cost to replace it is under 200.00 dollars...not including a service tech to install it for you if you so wish...
Actually the marquis ozone unit uses an electric ballast.
It is an Ultra Violet ozone generator, but instead of a standard uv bulb it uses a plasma cell uv lamp. Over 100,000 starts and stops it has minimal depletion. So far it is by far the most customer friendly ozone unit available. It is extremely similar to the ozone unit found at http://documents.balboa-instruments.com/pdf/ps/OZONE1.pdf
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Zz,
Marquis offers a solid state ozonator standard on each Marquis spa sold..it . It is installed at the factory, it is a UV type but does not use a ballast, In testing I am told that they can last for as long as 7 years and each time they light, the ozone is exactly the same as day one.....it requires no maintence...It has a 3 year warranty and the cost to replace it is under 200.00 dollars...not including a service tech to install it for you if you so wish...
Thanks Mendocino do you know who manufactures it?
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My Jacuzzi dealer said that to replace the bulb would cost as much as the new unit so he advises replacing the unit instead.
Yes that is my understanding too. The problem is that to spend $200. per year is quite expensive as we do not need as much sanitizer (the big advantage) but any money saved on sanitizer is small if any. $200 buys a lot of sanitizer.
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Zz,
As mentioned by RBoehme....you can see his link above that is about the closest you will find and I do understand it is made for them by Balboa.....
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Actually the marquis ozone unit uses an electric ballast.
It is an Ultra Violet ozone generator, but instead of a standard uv bulb it uses a plasma cell uv lamp. Over 100,000 starts and stops it has minimal depletion. So far it is by far the most customer friendly ozone unit available. It is extremely similar to the ozone unit found at http://documents.balboa-instruments.com/pdf/ps/OZONE1.pdf
If you look at this doc from the Marquis web site about maintenance it says this about checking the Ozonator:
"Check to see if the buld is lighted. Run spa in low-speed. The end caps of the ozonator should have a green glow if functioning properly. If not, the buld has burned out. Contact your dealer for service."
http://www.marquisspas.com/documents/2004/Spa_Maintenance.pdf
Is the plasma cell uv lamp the bulb they are talking about here?
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CD type operation can be adversley effected by high humidity. My understanding is they do not work well in very humid conditions and can produce nitric acid under those conditions. In other words CD Ozinators work best in very dry atmospheric conditons. Commercial applications use air dryers.
Yes, that is true but the commercial applications where this matters produce pounds of ozone per day. In a spa unit, the production of nitric acid will likely contribute less acid to the water than you drink in one can of soda. (I could do the math, but I'm lazy.) It's a non-issue from my standpoint. I have built a large ozone generator to use in uncontrolled atmospheric conditions, and even there nitric oxides/acid was not a problem.
The reference to the Balboa unit was interesting. Solid-state ballasts are not new technology, and I wish I knew what the marketing people mean by "Plasma Cell (TM)" technology. A standard fluorescent or UV lamp is basically a cell flull of mercury plasma. If they mean the new microwave-excited UV lamp, I don't know much about them other than they are claimed to have several advantages--among them higher ozone outputs and much improved bulb life. If true and Balboa has commercialized a reliable product, then I can see significant advantages to such a system and will investigate further when my CD system dies. Thanks for the heads up!
Starlight
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I've been told by 2 different shops that this uv ozone w/bulb should last 3yrs, not one year. I was told the cd ozone chip has a life of 12-15mo.
Yes that is my understanding too. The problem is that to spend $200. per year is quite expensive as we do not need as much sanitizer (the big advantage) but any money saved on sanitizer is small if any. $200 buys a lot of sanitizer.
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UV bulbs last 1 to 1˝ yrs.
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The standard UV Bulb will last 9000 hours. If your Spa uses jet pumps the UV will only operate when the pump is operating. So that will probably work out to One to a maximum of two years.
However if your Spa uses a 24/7 Circulation pump the UV Bulb will be on 24/7 which equates to approximately one year.
This new balboa system sounds interesting. Now we need to source it and find out at what cost.
Thanks all for the Great input, This has been an exceptionally informative thrread.
Regards Zz
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Thanks all for the Great input, This has been an exceptionally informative thrread.
I second that!
Does anyone know how long Marquis' ozonater really lasts?
A dealer claimed 7-10 yrs; i don't know if that was for a bulb or the unit itself?
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Well then, I guess in a year when my uv ozone needs replacing maybe there will be something better! So you recommend going ozoneless and spending the cash on more sanitizer? I've only got about 4 wks till delivery to figure this out. Unfortunately for me, my husband and I made a deal...he does electrical/deck/fencing and I learn how to keep the darn water clean. I am drowning in a sea of information and dreaming about containers of spa chemicals and dirty ducks and frogfloaterthings and bromine vs chlorine and ozonators. I wish I could hook up a 60amp gfci and pound a ground rod instead. Time for bed.
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I second that!
Does anyone know how long Marquis' ozonater really lasts?
A dealer claimed 7-10 yrs; i don't know if that was for a bulb or the unit itself?
It is my understanding that 7 years is possible...RBoehme says 100,000 hours that might be close to 7 years I do not know....but in any case they do back them with a 3 year non pro rated warranty so that says a lot about their confidence in them....
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Dichlor is so much cheaper - and it is always there for you. It also is a very broad spectrum 'bug' killer.
From my many years of experience:
UV bulbs last about a year to two years. Average - a year and a half.
Even if they still light after that, they are not producing enough ozone to matter.
CD ozonators come in two types:
one has a chip or chamber to be repaced every 9000 hours - one year at 24 hours per day. The other type has a much larger chamber, with a larger power supply as well, and can last up to ten years.
I know the HotSpring unit is made by Del, but currently only available thru HotSpring dealers - although they just announced a new "Platinum" unit rated at 15,000 hours which may be similar. It is this latter type, and from the brochures and sales pitches I've read, the Sundance is either one of these types, or it may be the former type, but set to run a limited number of hours per day, so they can make it last longer.
I would check to see which one you are getting, and I'm sorry, but there is no reason I know of to prefer the UV system over a CD system in a portable spa.
(http://www.delozone.com/images/mtext-text-prd-resid-spa.gif)
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Well then, I guess in a year when my uv ozone needs replacing maybe there will be something better! So you recommend going ozoneless and spending the cash on more sanitizer? I've only got about 4 wks till delivery to figure this out. Unfortunately for me, my husband and I made a deal...he does electrical/deck/fencing and I learn how to keep the darn water clean. I am drowning in a sea of information and dreaming about containers of spa chemicals and dirty ducks and frogfloaterthings and bromine vs chlorine and ozonators. I wish I could hook up a 60amp gfci and pound a ground rod instead. Time for bed.
The main reason I went for Ozination is that it reduces the need for more chemicals in the water, that is the sanitizer, usually chlorine or Bromine.
So I have a UV system presently, When it stops working I will simply increase my use of Sanitizer, (Dichlor) which is not a big deal.
In the mean time I am researching this new product with the thought of going to it whenever the time comes to service or replace my existing ozinator.
So as I say it is not a big deal either way. I just liked the idea of using less sanitizer and I chose to pay that price.
Its your call.
Regards, Zz
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We are considering a caldera spa. Here is what their web site says about ozone.
To significantly reduce the need for chemicals, all Utopia and Aquatic Melodies Series spas feature a high-output Monarch Corona Discharge (CD) Ozone System (optional on Paradise and Highland Series). This system operates continuously, mixing highly concentrated ozone with the water. Organic contaminants are instantly oxidized, helping to keep the water clean and fresh.
In the brochure "Monarch" is a registered trade mark. The brochure goes on to state this: " Because the ozone is created by a corona discharge cell, instead of a costly uv bulb that typically must be replaced every two or three years, the monarch cd ozone system reguires virtually no maintenance. And, it produces much higher ozone levels for greater effectiveness."
What I also find interesting is that they state the system runs continuously. I questioned the salesmen about it running when the jets are operating. He wasn't 100% sure so he called his tech. The tech said it ran when the jets operated but the circ pump ran only 18 hrs a day. That sure isn't continuously.
I'm calling caldera today to get the "straight" answer. We are very close to buying the niagra.
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I'm not sure why they couldn't answer your question but the reality is they use a 24-hr circ pump and therefore the ozone will run 24/7. That is one of the advantages of using a circ pump. The jet pumps running has nothing to do with it and does not affect the ozone at all as it is tied into the circ pump line, not the jet pump line.
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In my limited understanding of spa ozonation there are 2 major components to consider:
1. What Kind is it?
2. How does it get introduced into the system?
There's been good coverage in this thread regarding 1, UV or CD. I'd like to get some more information about component 2. As I understand it ozone is injected into an isolated contact chamber that eventually gets introduced into your tub.
One major consideration is how often is this happening? On tubs with a 24/7 circ pump ozonation is occuring 24/7; on systems without a circ pump ozonataion is occuring only when a jet pump is running. How do these 2 differ? Is ozonation more or less effective running 24/7 via a circ pump versus only when a jet pump is on?
Another consideration is the size/length of the contact chamber. In my research I've seen this vary considerably from 5 feet to 25 feet. I realize that the size of contact chamber is most likely dependent upon the kind of ozonator but I am wondering "does size really matter"? What is sufficient? Considering the same type of ozonator, what really is the difference between 10ft and 25ft of contact in the contact chamber? Is a 5ft too small to gain the benefits of ozonation? Can it be harmful if the ozone enters the tub with "too short" of contact? How does it all relate to the volume of your tub?
Then there's D1's water management system:
"Making use of two contact chambers and two stages of zone gas injection, this revolutionary Water Management System ensures maximum ozone distribution into solution for optimum spa water purification, and eliminates all damaging ozone off-gas."
2 chambers, 2 stages...?? what's that all about?
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Just called caldera and they confirmed that their circ pump does run 24hrs and so does the ozone. I had a chance to talk to the local tach and was surprised he said it ran for only 18hrs. Makes me wonder if he knows what he's doing.
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I second that!
Does anyone know how long Marquis' ozonater really lasts?
A dealer claimed 7-10 yrs; i don't know if that was for a bulb or the unit itself?
It has not yet been out for long enough to know for sure how long it lasts. It has been tested to be able to turn on and off with minimal ozone depletion 100,000 times. It does not require any maintanence. And from thier tests they have concluded that it should last between 7 to 10 years.
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He didn't mention anything about his boat payment, did he? ;)
My Jacuzzi dealer said that to replace the bulb would cost as much as the new unit so he advises replacing the unit instead.
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My Jacuzzi dealer said that to replace the bulb would cost as much as the new unit so he advises replacing the unit instead.
This is a common practice.