Hot Tub Forum
Original => Hot Tub Forum => Topic started by: Nitro on April 25, 2009, 04:27:51 pm
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If you are using Granulated Chlorine (aka Dichlor) to sanitize your hot tub, this is a must read!
Chem Geek has written an excellent detailed explanation about the effects of using Dichlor in your hot tub HERE (http://www.whatsthebest-hottub.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?num=1240419142/30#33). He is probably the leading researcher on this subject. I'll try to summarize it here in a new thread, because I don't want his info to get lost in an off topic thread where few people will see it.
Dichlor essentially has two ingredients, Chlorine and Cyanuric Acid (CYA). Almost everyone knows about Chlorine, but few people know about CYA. CYA is used in outdoor swimming pools to limit the breakdown of Chlorine from UV rays. However, it also acts as a Chlorine stabilizer. Basically, it limits the effectiveness of Chlorine, while allowing it to last longer. Think of Chlorine as being a wildfire, and CYA being a water hose. CYA in a sense controls the Chlorine from burning everything up (i.e. you and your tub).
Therefore, CYA is a GOOD thing to have in every hot tub and pool (including indoor). The problem comes when there is too much. If there is too much CYA in your tub it will limit the Sanitation (burn) rate too much, allowing certain types of bacteria to grow and form biofilms, namely Pseudomonas Aeruginosa (Hot Tub Itch).
Here are some details:
For every 10 ppm FC you add to your tub using Dichlor, you add 9 ppm CYA. Active Chlorine is a measure of how effective the Chlorine in your tub can kill bugs, and oxidize waste. Active Chlorine is estimated by the ratio FC/CYA. As CYA increases, Active Chlorine decreases (assuming FC remains at normal levels between 1-10). This means every time you add ~11 ppm FC (10 ppm CYA), you drop the Active Chlorine by 1/10th.
Let's look at some real numbers. Assume a 350 gal tub with an average of 4 ppm FC added everyday using Dichlor, which is typical. After the first week you will have 25 ppm CYA. After the first month you will have ~100 ppm CYA. That means your Active Chlorine is FOUR times less after a month than it was the first week. So after a month when you soak in your tub with 4 ppm FC, that's equivalent to 1 ppm the end of the first week. After the second month (CYA = 200 ppm), 4 ppm FC is equivalent to 0.5 ppm. Get the picture?
You might be asking why are they selling us Dichlor which contains CYA. The main reason is that you do need some CYA in your tub. If you have no CYA in your tub the chlorine would be way too strong causing damage to you and the tub. If you had 4 ppm FC in the tub with no CYA, that would be equivalent to ~120 ppm FC with CYA at 30 ppm. That would be a level used in a Decontamination (http://www.whatsthebest-hottub.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?num=1240373093) procedure. Not safe for you, or the tub. Some manufactures will even void the warrantee if they find out you were using Chlorine with no CYA. So to try to keep customers from destroying their tubs and themselves, the industry created a product (Dichlor) with Chlorine and a stabilizer (CYA). However, as we have seen from the facts above, this is not the best solution. As CYA increases in your hot tub, the risk of getting ill (i.e. Hot Tub Itch), and/or having water problems (cloudy water etc.) is much greater.
Some may say they have been using Dichlor for years, and never had a problem. Or, if you change the water evey 2-3 months, you won't have a problem. I say, why risk it, if there's a better solution? If you are using Dichlor in your tub now, a better solution is the Dichlor/Bleach method, pioneered by (you guest it) Chem Geek. All you do is use Dichlor for the first week to build up CYA to 20-30 ppm, then switch to Regular Clorox Unscented Bleach. Bleach has no CYA, so your Active Chlorine will remain the same up until you drain the tub. Other advantages of using Bleach are it's cheap and easy to get. The water will last about twice as long. The only other difference is you need to keep your TA lower (50-60 ppm), and are recommend to add Borates (which actually make the water feel and smell better). If you would like to learn more about this method, check it out HERE (http://www.whatsthebest-hottub.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?num=1240378398).
Lastly, there is no guarantee with this, or any method. All we can do is lower the risk.
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While that's all real nice, we are not selling Clorox bleach out of our store, I know a lot (like us) retailers do quite well on chemical sales and by telling a customer, oh just use bleach is not going to fly with us.
FWIW I find all this info great reading, too much reading, but it is still informative and a great refresher for me.
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While that's all real nice, we are not selling Clorox bleach out of our store, I know a lot (like us) retailers do quite well on chemical sales and by telling a customer, oh just use bleach is not going to fly with us.
Thank you for mentioning the other reason they sell us Dichlor, $$$.
Fortunately I have no interest in selling chemicals (or anything), so I'm free to tell the whole story.
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Again, informative but too much to call easy maintenance.
Fortunately we sell a spa with a great ozonator system and with the use of a hypochlorite (like Enhanced or Litihium Hypochlorite) we can keep our maintenance very simple and user friendly.
I hate seeing customers using liquid chlorine if for no other reason that splash back, spillage on the surface which can bleach and the inconsistencies of concentration depending on where they purchase it.
It is also important to note that customers coming to stores where professionals work can get support, feedback and answers to questions that employees at the local drug store can not offer. More customers are confused by non-professionals giving opinions, anecdotal or incorrect information. Spa retailers have access to data provided by chemical manufacturers and chemists that they can turn to for answers to questions on water care. Plus, I love seeing my customers and checking in with them when they stop by for products!
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Again, informative but too much to call easy maintenance.
The Dichlor/Bleach method is very easy maintenance. Anyone who thinks otherwise has never tried it. It would be even easier if the Industry would produce a Starter Pack containing Cyanuric Acid and Boric Acid that we add to our tub on a fresh fill. Then they could even sell Bleach (but call it Sodium Hypochlorite so nobody knows it's really Bleach) at a higher price. At least it would be safer than using only Dichlor.
Fortunately we sell a spa with a great ozonator system and with the use of a hypochlorite (like Enhanced or Litihium Hypochlorite) we can keep our maintenance very simple and user friendly.
Litihium Hypochlorite is way more expensive than Bleach (almost 20 TIMES). No Thanks! HERE (http://www.troublefreepool.com/cost-comparison-of-chlorine-sources-t1859.html) is link to price comparison.
I hate seeing customers using liquid chlorine if for no other reason that splash back, spillage on the surface which can bleach and the inconsistencies of concentration depending on where they purchase it.
Most people are responsible enough to use bleach. Folks have been using it for years. My mother used it for years, on my socks and underwear. It's a lot safer to handle than say, Muratic Acid. Also, Reqular Unscented Clorox 6% Bleach is recommended, but it really doesn't matter the concentration. If they are measuring their FC (like they need to), they will end up using more or less.
It is also important to note that customers coming to stores where professionals work can get support, feedback and answers to questions that employees at the local drug store can not offer. More customers are confused by non-professionals giving opinions, anecdotal or incorrect information. Spa retailers have access to data provided by chemical manufacturers and chemists that they can turn to for answers to questions on water care.
Not all professionals are as nice, informative and fun to be around as you Spalady. Some are downright nasty, others are uninformed and others just don't care except for selling their high priced chemicals. Anybody that sells their customers "Alk Up" at a higher price than regular Baking Soda is not someone I would trust giving me advice on maintaining my water.
Dispite what some think, you can get far better (honest) advice on the Internet than from most of the "professionals" trying to sell you products at high prices, or that you don't need. After all Spalady, you are on the Internet.
Plus, I love seeing my customers and checking in with them when they stop by for products!
$$$
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Dispite what some think, you can get far better (honest) advice on the Internet than from most of the "professionals" trying to sell you products at high prices, or that you don't need.
And you can also get bad and dishonest advice on the net.
And using bleach in the laundry is not the same as using it in a hot tub or swimming pool.
By the way, what is the other 94%?
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By the way, what is the other 94%?
THAT is an excellent question.
I have used the simple system for years - in my spa and thousands of my customers:
- Dichlor as you exit,
- Keep the water in balance,
- Change every four months.
This works best if you have a good filtration system and a working ozonator.
8-)
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And you can also get bad and dishonest advice on the net.
But at least you get BOTH sides of the argument, unlike in a dealer/retail shop, who's main goal is to sell you something.
And using bleach in the laundry is not the same as using it in a hot tub or swimming pool.
Why not? You pour it into a measuring cup, and pour it into the tub. It's easier than drinking a hot cup of coffee. Anyone who tells you otherwise has never done it, or is misleading you. The "bleach is bad" argument doesn't hold water. (pardon the pun)
By the way, what is the other 94%?
Mostly water and a little salt.
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THAT is an excellent question.
I have used the simple system for years - in my spa and thousands of my customers:
- Dichlor as you exit,
- Keep the water in balance,
- Change every four months.
This works best if you have a good filtration system and a working ozonator.
8-)
Four months using Dichlor, with a high bather load such as 50 ppm FC per week. That would be ~720 ppm CYA. I find it hard to believe out of your thousands of customers, none of them had water problems with those instructions.
HERE (http://www.poolspaforum.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=11064&st=0&p=51033&#entry51033) are some cases who did have problems. Dichlor use after one month is at the top of the list. And that's just from an informal Internet study. Imagine all the cases that go un-reported.
I bet if you told your customers they could use regular household bleach from the grocery store that's cheaper and safer, they would.
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Dichlor has been used by many, many spa users without problems. The approach of adding it after a soak was called the Vermont/Vermonter/Northman method. The lower sanitation levels at higher CYA levels wasn't understood since it's not widely published and is disputed by the chlorinated cyanurate manufacturers using arguments such as 1) it hasn't been proven that the slower kill times happen in "real pools" or 2) no study has shown outbreaks correlated with CYA level. Of course, this ignores the numerous scientific studies in the lab and experiments and theory described in this post (http://www.whatsthebest-hottub.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?num=1240419142/34#34). The two pool studies (that the industry funded) showed that uncontrolled bacterial growth in pools was mostly prevented with very low amounts of chlorine that were so low that CYA could not be isolated as a factor -- and they didn't look at kill times nor at hypochlorous acid concentration. The reason no study has shown correlation of outbreaks with CYA is that CYA isn't looked at in most outbreak reports and most cases outbreaks are due to no chlorine -- but virtually all respiratory and ocular problems are associated with indoor pools and most indoor pools do not use CYA (of course, indoor pools have worse air circulation and don't have exposure to sunlight, which are additional factors, but not having any CYA in the water makes chlorine "too strong").
Just because I collected info on a hot tub site for hot tub itch/rash/lung does not prove anything. It's just a collection of empirical evidence giving hints or suggestions that when combined with chemical theory known since at least 1974 plus lab studies through the 70's and 80's suggests that having a more stable Cyanuric Acid (CYA) level would be a good idea. Hence, the Dichlor-then-bleach method.
Like many things in life, there are pros and cons with every choice. Dichlor-then-bleach requires some initial effort to control the pH via lowering the TA and usually using Borates. It's way too early to tell if it's a better method for most people. It might be that using N2 with Dichlor-only or MPS is good enough and safe enough. I will say that without N2 it does look like Dichlor-only is a bit riskier. On the plus side with Dichlor-then-bleach, it looks like you can go about twice as long before needing to change the water and it's less expensive.
Finally, as I have told/posted to you and others, I am not a researcher or scientist. I am just a pool owner with a strong interest in pool/spa water chemistry. That's why I always link to sources and info that people can check and verify or draw their own conclusions. I have communicated with various organizations including those involved with standards such as APSP-11, CDC MAHC, NSF International, and I've met several of the key players in person at a conference, but I don't believe I'm making much headway with regard to the chlorine/CYA relationship issue and the inconsistency of the current rules using CYA in outdoor pools and not in indoor pools or commercial/public spas in spite of the order-of-magnitude differences in disinfection/oxidation rates (essentially, indoor pools at typical 1-2 ppm FC with no CYA are over-chlorinated and should have a small amount of CYA) including the implications of breakpoint chlorination models that show order-of-magnitude greater very irritating nitrogen trichloride production when CYA is not used to moderate chlorine's effective strength. No one is disputing the science (except with the arguments noted above), but they don't want to change the regs either.
Richard
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Actually, a huge majority of pool owners in the southeast use bleach for their preference in sanitizing their pools. The retailers in Florida, Southern Alabama, etc have anywhere from 300 to 500 gallon tanks of bleach at their stores. The customer brings in a yellow container to get refills.
Many pool services use bleach as well. In fact, the largest pool service in Houston uses bleach with Cyanuric Acid as their primary method of shocking and maintaining chlorine in the pool. They are very successful in doing this while keeping their pools in great shape.
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This is probably the last that I'll say about any of the recent posts on water care as these "discussions" are really worthless IMO.
Honestly I have used bleach and dichlor and dichlor for me is 100% easier to use as I keep it by spa side and just dose as I need it.
Personally I have learned a lot from chem geek on a different forum and he always is "happy" to answer a question - thanks! One of the things I learned from him is that dichlor = bad as is being portrayed in this thread is not entirely accurate. Also, he was the one that I learned from that the hot tub itch bacteria has to be introduced into the water and it just doesn't grow.
Yes chlorine becomes ineffective as CYA goes up but luckily the bacteria we are trying to kill is fragile enough to be killed even after 3 months use of dichlor which would be over 300 PPM. He advised me that keeping about 20 to 30 PPM CYA is the best place to keep it to keep the corrosive effects of chlorine at bay. The way to do that is use dichlor in the beginning and another form of chlorine after that - the bleach people prefer bleach.
Now, we come to the Dichlor = bad fallacy. I was lucky enough to be on Doc's forum when Vermonter posted a lot. Vermonter told us he is a Microbiologist and owned his own testing lab; he also tested his own water. If you believe what he was saying and I do, his water was safe from pathogens even at 3 months out using dichlor to dose and shock - that would give the tub a high reading of CYA. He did use ozone and nature 2 as well but attributed the water cleanliness to the dichlor. I doubt anyone else has tested and put the results down the way he did. Just based on this I believe that it is 100% possible to use dichlor and not have a problem.
I do believe that Chem geek and Vermonter have had a conversation at one point but I don't know if that's true.
But, it was also said that people may have issues. Chas has been doing this for a long time as has other spa professionals. Other than the people who only sell and don't get involved in any other aspects, I doubt that their experience is bogus. Yes, people have issues but how many times has a person come onto a forum and think they can use a product 1x or whatever without any idea of it being wrong or why. People are sold ozone without the use of sanitizer and then wonder why they have a cloudy tub ... maybe they were sold a bill of goods.
I agree also that you need to take info with a grain of salt on the internet. People have "accurate" information and it might indeed be accurate or not. We are all faceless people and quite honestly the theoretical vs practical knowledge may be different. I give my information based on my experience, I've been here a while as others have and I "trust" some people on what they say. If someone wants to use my info great, if they don't trust it - no skin off my nose.Coming onto a forum and being the "authority" without having a background on the forum is a little overzealous IMO. Personally I believe the info has been given out here will have a safe tub as well. Unless something is proven to be ineffective then it's not entirely wrong.
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Vinny,
The fact is, the Dichlor/Bleach method is cheaper and safer than using only Dichlor. Nobody can, or does dispute this. Also, there is a big difference between using only Dichlor, and using it with Nature2 and an Ozonator. This post is referring to using only Dichlor, without N2, an Ozonator or MPS. As far as which is easier, that's up to the individual to decide. Personally, I keep a plastic water bottle filled with bleach next to the tub, and squirt it in as needed. What could be easier than that?
I'm not saying using only Dichlor WILL cause problems. I'm saying it CAN (and HAS) cause problems. I didn't write this post to start a dabate (although I knew it would). I wrote it to inform people about the risks of using only Dichlor, and to give them an alternative. Like I mentioned before, I am not selling anything. And as you say, if someone doesn't take my advice, it's no skin off my nose. However, I will defend information that I know to be correct. And frankly, I find the fact that the industry, and some so called "experts" that I have personally came into contact with are ignoring this information, very troubling. Although not surprising.
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I didn't have time to read all the posts here so pardon me if this was already covered. If CYA is a huge concern why not use Lithium Hypochlorite? I believe there is no stabilizer used in Lithium. Why doesn't a chemical manufacturer produce standard dichlor without a stabilizer for spa use?
I've used Vermonter's dicholor method for over 4 years now and have had no problems...................
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I didn't have time to read all the posts here so pardon me if this was already covered. If CYA is a huge concern why not use Lithium Hypochlorite?
The main reason is the price. It's about 17 times more expensive to use than Bleach.
Why doesn't a chemical manufacturer produce standard dichlor without a stabilizer for spa use?
They don't need to, becuase there's already a product called Bleach. However, you do need SOME CYA in the tub, or the Chlorine will be TOO strong. So using only Dichlor is much better than using only Bleach.
However, the real question is, why doesn't a chemical manufacturer produce a Starter Pack containing just the right amount of CYA to produce 20-30 ppm? They could also throw in some Borates as a bonus. On a fresh fill spa users could just throw the pack in the tub, and go right to using bleach. No need to measure CYA or calculate how much Dichlor you're using. Now THAT would be simple.
I've used Vermonter's dicholor method for over 4 years now and have had no problems...................
Glad to hear it, and I hope you never do.
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Personally I have learned a lot from chem geek on a different forum and he always is "happy" to answer a question - thanks! One of the things I learned from him is that dichlor = bad as is being portrayed in this thread is not entirely accurate. Also, he was the one that I learned from that the hot tub itch bacteria has to be introduced into the water and it just doesn't grow.
I don't remember the details of the conversation, but suspect I said that bacteria have to get introduced into the tub. That doesn't mean, however, that some bacteria aren't common so will enter the tub whenever you soak. That is the case for the bacteria that causes hot tub itch since it is fairly common. It just doesn't cause problems until it finds weakness in skin (irritation, sores, cuts, etc.) and is in numbers large enough to overwhelm the bodies normal first-line defense. So if the bacteria grows to large numbers in a spa, then that's when it becomes a more serious problem for some people.
I do believe that Chem geek and Vermonter have had a conversation at one point but I don't know if that's true.
Yes we did go back and forth with a few E-mails. Where that left off was that he was going to send me some more definitive CT values for a variety of pathogens, but that never happened and he stopped responding (could have gotten busy) since Sept., 2007. If he was doing his tests with N2 (silver and copper ions) in the water (he didn't tell me that), then that most certainly isn't a fair test to compare against Dichlor-only. He was not fully aware of the chlorine/CYA relationship (didn't know of much peer-reviewed research and asked that I send him some which I did). Since I received permission to reprint/post the definitive scientific paper on that (here (http://richardfalk.home.comcast.net/~richardfalk/pool/OBrien.htm)), I sent him that link as well as links to several papers showing the CYA effect on chlorine kill rates in Feb. of this year (2009) but never heard back. He was fairly confident that the Dichlor method with 3 ppm FC minimum was OK, but he also believed most bacteria were easy-to-kill and we didn't get into discussions about how hot tub itch bacteria fairly quickly form biofilms more resistant to chlorine, etc.
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I always feel so warm and fuzzy when somebody comes on and says that a dealer will recommend a chem regimen which makes him the most money. Thank-you Nitro. Actually, Baqua fills that bill, but I no longer recommend it. I have had more problems with that system and I simply do not mention it when people ask what I like the best. I want the tub ownership experience to be as easy as possible, and the Dichlor does it.
I must once again state that I have all the options available and I have found that Dichlor works the best in the thousands of tubs I have contact with.
There seem to be a couple of missing links, as it were, in your thinking which might well be pointed out here. For one, I like ozone systems and N2. In some tubs there is no facility for an extended contact time, so there are little or no benefits to ozone. In those tubs, the use of Dichlor alone may build up CYA. The solution is to change the water every two or three months instead of trying to go four months.
In our tubs - good filtration and ozone standard - the use of Dichlor is minimal. They are tossing in teaspoons at a time, and still getting a reading when they go to use the tub next time. That is not going to bring up CYA in any kind of hurry. In fact, most of our customers soak chlorine free by using MPS after each soak, and backing that up with a Dichlor shock once a month or when they have a crowd in the tub. And I will steal your thunder on this front: MPS builds TDS in the water. Yup. So does bleach, BTW, but regular water changes handle this 'problem' with ease.
I have simplified the system because it works, and works well. I would be glad to sell pool chlorine at low prices for my customers who want it, but so far none have wanted it. Pool chlorine is analogous to laundry bleach but is available for less and can be sold in bulk - ie: bring in your empties to exchange for full bottles. But keeping bottles of bleach around the house turns off most of my customers - even the ones who have tried laundry bleach come back to Dichlor after awhile.
I don't know how you can make the argument that handling liquid bleach is easier than Dichlor - nor can I understand how you can not mention that Sodium Hypo (and Cal Hypo) has a pH of close to 13!! That is the 'dirty little secret' of bleach users ;)
I am sure you have done your homework on this, and I think that there are going to be some people who have wanted to know more about the ins and outs of all of this, and that is great. Please don't assume that just because most dealers don't put all this out that we are trying to pull something. We all want our tubs to be easy to own - the dealers and the owners of those tubs are on the same side in this debate.
You are not giving away some closely-guarded secrets here. You are not breaking up some huge monopoly nor are you exposing some sort of greed-driven attempt to conceal the truth from the great unwashed masses.
Please keep up the good work of making your info available, as I said, I'm sure many users are curious about it and find it very useful and interesting - but also please don't make it sound like your system is the system, or that your system is going to some how stick it to the man.
8-)
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Well said Chas!
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I always feel so warm and fuzzy when somebody comes on and says that a dealer will recommend a chem regimen which makes him the most money. Thank-you Nitro. Actually, Baqua fills that bill, but I no longer recommend it. I have had more problems with that system and I simply do not mention it when people ask what I like the best. I want the tub ownership experience to be as easy as possible, and the Dichlor does it.
I'm not saying all dealers are out to make money at the expense of their customers happiness and safety. I'm sure a lot of dealers are good people who really trying to give their customers the best easiest (as they see it) approach. I'm just suggesting another approach, that is safer, cheaper and not much more difficult. I am saying anyone that denies the benifits of using Bleach is either uninformed, or misleading you.
I must once again state that I have all the options available and I have found that Dichlor works the best in the thousands of tubs I have contact with.
I believe Dichlor has worked for you and many of your customers. However, I'm just saying it would be impossible for you track everybody's progress. Like was mentioned, somebody with a High Bather Load (like myself and others I know), using only Dichlor is just plain risky. I'm not just talking about Hot Tub Itch. Other bacteria could form, if FC is low. Oxidization slows down. Cloudy water etc. All of these things may not make you sick, but are certainly annoying.
There seem to be a couple of missing links, as it were, in your thinking which might well be pointed out here. For one, I like ozone systems and N2. In some tubs there is no facility for an extended contact time, so there are little or no benefits to ozone. In those tubs, the use of Dichlor alone may build up CYA. The solution is to change the water every two or three months instead of trying to go four months.
Another advantage to using Dichlor/Bleach is that you can go about twice as long without changing the water. This makes a difference for people who have really bad well water etc.. Some people even have their water trucked in. Also, there's the long winters. I need the water to last around 4-5 months here in Chicago during the winter.
In our tubs - good filtration and ozone standard - the use of Dichlor is minimal. They are tossing in teaspoons at a time, and still getting a reading when they go to use the tub next time. That is not going to bring up CYA in any kind of hurry. In fact, most of our customers soak chlorine free by using MPS after each soak, and backing that up with a Dichlor shock once a month or when they have a crowd in the tub. And I will steal your thunder on this front: MPS builds TDS in the water. Yup. So does bleach, BTW, but regular water changes handle this 'problem' with ease.
Again, the less Dichlor you use the better. Obviously if you're using MPS (and Nature2), the amount of Dichlor needed would be less. Not all tubs have an ozone system. And ozone systems (which I heard) are not that reliable, only lasting 2-3 years, before needing a replacement. Ozonators may be a nice option, but I wouldn't want to rely on it.
Regarding TDS, regular Clorox Unscented Bleach only adds salt to the tub. However, you can build up a lot of salt in the tub before it becomes a problem. As I said above you can go about twice as long between water changes. As long as you're not adding unnecessary stuff, TDS (other than salt) will stay low.
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I have simplified the system because it works, and works well. I would be glad to sell pool chlorine at low prices for my customers who want it, but so far none have wanted it. Pool chlorine is analogous to laundry bleach but is available for less and can be sold in bulk - ie: bring in your empties to exchange for full bottles. But keeping bottles of bleach around the house turns off most of my customers - even the ones who have tried laundry bleach come back to Dichlor after awhile.
I find it hard to believe that most customers are worried about bleach. There was a time not too long ago when there was gallon of bleach in EVERY household. I'm sure if your customers knew the whole story including the benefits, a lot of them wouldn't have a problem using it.
I don't know how you can make the argument that handling liquid bleach is easier than Dichlor[/b]
Well it may not be easier, but it certainly isn't much more difficult. Again, that's up to the user to decide. I find it just as easy myself. Pour it into a measuring cup, and pour it in the tub. I think you're making a big deal about something that just isn't there.
Nor can I understand how you can not mention that Sodium Hypo (and Cal Hypo) has a pH of close to 13!! That is the 'dirty little secret' of bleach users[/b][/color] ;)
Glad you brought that up. Actually, Bleach will raise pH initially, but as Chlorine gets used up, it will actually lower pH back down to where it started. Chem Geek can explain this to you.
So using bleach is actually more pH neutral (after it gets used up) than Dichlor. Dichlor is actually acidic, that sometimes requires addition baking soda. The problem with bleach is, because it's pH balanced, the pH will rise from aeration in the tub. This is easily fixed by lowering TA to 50-60 ppm, and the use of Borates. Borates will act as a pH buffer, reducing pH rise. Some people find they don't even need Borates. Also, MPS is acidic. If you use it once week along with Bleach, you can then keep your TA higher.
To put this in perspective. My current water is almost 6 months old. My CYA is 30ppm, TA is 55 ppm and I have 50 ppm Borates. I have only added acid once after the initial dose to lower my TA down from 100 ppm. My pH has been rock solid between 7.6 - 7.8. The only thing I add to my tub on a regular basis is Bleach.
Bottom line: The Dichlor/Bleach method is cheaper, safer and allows you to go longer between water changes than using only Dichlor. How easy it is to handle bleach, is up to the user. I find it easy, and I only have one hand (yes you heard that right). I bet if everyone knew the benefits of using Bleach, it might not seem so difficult to them. The only other two disadvantages are: You need to use Dichlor for the first week to build up CYA before switching to bleach. And you need to lower TA more (50-60 ppm), and use Borates to keep pH Rise in check. These are really a no brainer though.
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[glow]Anybody that sells their customers "Alk Up" at a higher price than regular Baking Soda is not someone I would trust giving me advice on maintaining my water.[/glow]
I have to see it for more than a box of Baking soda since the chemical companies charge us more. Exspensive plastic bottles...???.....
We really are not marking up 500%. Plus, if we do not make a little on our chemical sales we need to charge more for the tubs, service, accessories ect. Aftermarket customers are key to keeping prices lower IMO.
Its not a trust thing....Its a buisness. Does the gas station say..."Hey, don't buy diesel from us, go to McDonalds and use they fry grease..."
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Nitro one question I have is who exactly are you pitching all this info at? The dealers here or the consumers? Either way your not hitting huge masses of people, just the ones that frequent here from time to time and the dealers that are here.
If you really want to spew all this info to people that may be looking create a blog or your own spa care website. Not slamming you or trying to be mean but I am not sure who all this is for?
And as I have said, I think it is great information for those that want to learn every possible way to keep a spa clean.
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[glow]Anybody that sells their customers "Alk Up" at a higher price than regular Baking Soda is not someone I would trust giving me advice on maintaining my water.[/glow]
I have to see it for more than a box of Baking soda since the chemical companies charge us more. Exspensive plastic bottles...???.....
We really are not marking up 500%. Plus, if we do not make a little on our chemical sales we need to charge more for the tubs, service, accessories ect. Aftermarket customers are key to keeping prices lower IMO.
Its not a trust thing....Its a buisness. Does the gas station say..."Hey, don't buy diesel from us, go to McDonalds and use they fry grease..."
Actually, I really don't have a problem with dealers/retailers making money selling Baking Soda (aka Alk Up). My problem is when they lie to by saying their "Alk Up" is somehow different (better) than Baking Soda. Or when they load you up with a bunch of stuff you don't need, without ever knowing your initial water chemistry. Frankly, anyone who has a higher TA should never need Alk Up. I use Baking Soda for other uses, but never in my hot tub. And pH Up is useless for any hot tub with air jets. As far as the plastic bottle, I'd rather you sell an empty bottle, so I can add Baking Soda I buy in bulk.
I'm sure most dealers/retailers are good people. Some are just uninformed, but many are dishonest. I happen to dislike some dealers because of my own experiences. But hey, if I had my choice of helping spa users and offending the "experts", OR helping the "experts" and offending the users, I'll choose the former.
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[[glow] And pH Up is useless for any hot tub with air jets.
As far as the plastic bottle, I'd rather you sell an empty bottle, so I can add Baking Soda I buy in bulk.[/glow]
Which costs less PH UP or running the electric for the jets to be on, plus adding the air which cools the water and adds more airborn debris into the water, not to count the time it takes.
I can not help what our chemical companies charge us and you missed the point on the diesel......I am not going to say "Hello, how are you....why don't you go to your local grocery to get help with all your spa needs" If they ask if Alk up and baking soda are the same, I will be honest with them, but I am not going to turn away buisness...do you or whatever company you work for?
And you said it....in your tub....you have a high TA, many do not. Around here we see low TA and High PH often. Maybe all that Hillbilly home brew we drink ;D :o
I understand some of your chemical things, i was talking with Chem Geek before you even did your neighbors tub, may not agree with it all, respect you posting it, as long as the consumer understands what it involves (many customers come into the store that dump just bleach in their tubs because they read it online, or read part of it because the rest seemed mute to them and wonder why their tub is falling apart) BUT I lose my respect when you degrade the dealers, CPO's, APSP, NSPF ect. Doing this as a larger picture, hundreds of thousands of spas and pools give these people a little credibility.
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Nitro one question I have is who exactly are you pitching all this info at? The dealers here or the consumers? Either way your not hitting huge masses of people, just the ones that frequent here from time to time and the dealers that are here.
If you really want to spew all this info to people that may be looking create a blog or your own spa care website. Not slamming you or trying to be mean but I am not sure who all this is for?
And as I have said, I think it is great information for those that want to learn every possible way to keep a spa clean.
If you haven't noticed, there are quite a few spa users that come to this site looking for advice. I have been reading this site for a while (even posting in the past), and I have noticed a lot of misinformation floating around.
This post is to inform spa users (and professionals who want to learn something) about the potential risks of using too much Dichlor, and to give them another option.
My other posts are to help spa users keep their tub cleaner, and reduce problems that bring them here to begin with. Despite the difficulty some "experts" on this board are having understanding this information, most beginners have no problems understanding and using it.
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Nitro....do bleach tablets exist?.....
I was thinking maybe it would be nice if you could throw bleach tablets in a float?
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Which costs less PH UP or running the electric for the jets to be on, plus adding the air which cools the water and adds more airborn debris into the water, not to count the time it takes.
It only takes mins if you raise your TA with Baking Soda.
I can not help what our chemical companies charge us and you missed the point on the diesel......I am not going to say "Hello, how are you....why don't you go to your local grocery to get help with all your spa needs" If they ask if Alk up and baking soda are the same, I will be honest with them, but I am not going to turn away buisness...do you or whatever company you work for?
I wish all dealers/retails were like you. Unfortunatly they're not. My problem is with them, not you.
And you said it....in your tub....you have a high TA, many do not. Around here we see low TA and High PH often. Maybe all that Hillbilly home brew we drink ;D :o
If you were listening to Geek Geek in my other thread, you can use TA to only raise TA, and not pH. The pH will only go so high and stay there until TA gets higher. In that case you would raise TA slightly above your target, and then bring TA/pH back down with acid.
I understand some of your chemical things, i was talking with Chem Geek before you even did your neighbors tub, may not agree with it all, respect you posting it, as long as the consumer understands what it involves (many customers come into the store that dump just bleach in their tubs because they read it online, or read part of it because the rest seemed mute to them and wonder why their tub is falling apart) BUT I lose my respect when you degrade the dealers, CPO's, APSP, NSPF ect. Doing this as a larger picture, hundreds of thousands of spas and pools give these people a little credibility.
I degrade dealers who are dishonest and/or rude. Experience is a good thing. However, experience and degrees mean nothing, IF you don't continue to learn. I have a couple degrees myself, and quite a LARGE bit of experience in another field.
I may not have the amount of experience in the spa/pool industry that others may have, but I do have enough knowledge and experience to see the problems with using too much Dichlor. I'm just stating them, and offering another option.
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Nitro....do bleach tablets exist?.....
I was thinking maybe it would be nice if you could throw bleach tablets in a float?
Not that I know of. However there is something that does have some promise. There is a product called The Liqudator (http://www.ezpool.com/) that will despense Bleach in pools. A do-it-yourselfer could probably install it in a spa. What would be great is if spa maker would build something like this into their tub. There could be a small door that you open, and add bleach to the container. Or they could even come up with a way to exchange the container with a full one, making it even safer to handle.
There are plenty of ways to despense Chlorine without CYA. Salt Water Chlorine Generators are used in some spas. And there's a portable one called the Spa Pilot (http://www.poolsupplydeals.com/-strse-1557/Autopilot-Spa-Pilot-Salt/Detail.bok). There has been folks discussing it on another forum (http://www.poolspaforum.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=10395). I think the main problem was that they still add to add extra Chlorine during high bather loads, but that's better than only using Dichlor.
To be honest, I'd rather this thread turn into a discussion about ideas and solutions, rather than attacks.
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To be honest, I'd rather this thread turn into a discussion about ideas and solutions, rather than attacks.
Great idea! Then maybe you shouldn't start threads called [glow]"dirty little secrets about dichlor" [/glow] or make ridiculous statements such as the one the other day saying if you use dichlor you need to drain every month or two, or make statements like you made earlier today where you said to someone "I wish all dealers/retails were like you. Unfortunately they're not. [glow]My problem is with them[/glow], not you. " My problem is you're not only a self promoter but you do so by knocking what others are saying at the same time as a way of validating your opinion.
You obviously know your chemistry but your self titled (should have been a clue) bible is not the be-all/end-all you think it is. The funny thing is that I know MANY fellow spa industry people who deal with chems for spa owners and most of us who have a spa at our own homes use dichlor ourselves. If dichlor was only out there to make sales and was the inferior method you seem to say it is why are well all using it. Of yeah, we don't see the light! I guess we just didn't get the Nitro bible soon enough (sarcasm).
If I'm on the road I prefer to eat where the truckers eat and when I sanitize my spa I'll go the way I know many/most spa professionals sanitize theirs. If dichlor was so troublesome I think I'd have seen it in my 10 years of spa expereince (and 10 years is nothing compared to what many others here have).
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Great idea! Then maybe you shouldn't start threads called [glow]"dirty little secrets about dichlor" [/glow] or make ridiculous statements such as the one the other day saying if you use dichlor you need to drain every month or two, or make statements like you made earlier today where you said to someone "I wish all dealers/retails were like you. Unfortunately they're not. [glow]My problem is with them[/glow], not you. " My problem is you're not only a self promoter but you do so by knocking what others are saying at the same time as a way of validating your opinion.
I named this thread to get the attention of people using Dichlor, not to attack anyone. The attacks were coming at me long before I even posted this thread. I think the reason is, the "experts" might be realizing it doesn't take years of experience and many degrees to understand hot tub water chemistry.
You obviously know your chemistry but your self titled (should have been a clue) bible is not the be-all/end-all you think it is. The funny thing is that I know MANY fellow spa industry people who deal with chems for spa owners and most of us who have a spa at our own homes use dichlor ourselves. If dichlor was only out there to make sales and was the inferior method you seem to say it is why are well all using it. Of yeah, we don't see the light! I guess we just didn't get the Nitro bible soon enough (sarcasm).
BTW, I'm not promoting myself, I'm promoting my Dog. Who do you think Nitro is? ;D
If I were promoting myself, I'd use my real name.
If I'm on the road I prefer to eat where the truckers eat and when I sanitize my spa I'll go the way I know many/most spa professionals sanitize theirs. If dichlor was so troublesome I think I'd have seen it in my 10 years of spa expereince (and 10 years is nothing compared to what many others here have).
If that's the case Doctors should have a longer life spans than everyone else. But to be fair, I trust truck drivers more than most spa dealers.
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I named this thread to get the attention of people using Dichlor, not to attack anyone.
When you name something "dichlor, the dirty little secret" then you are clearly saying someone is deceiving someone else which is a joke.
But to be fair, I trust truck drivers more than most spa dealers.
Exactly, you have an agenda that goes beyond the obvious self promotion. Yet then you turn around and out of the other side of your mouth you say "I'd rather this thread turn into a discussion about ideas and solutions, rather than attacks.".
Of course I imagine you'll say that you went into a spa store one day and the guy was like a used car salesmen so you there use that as a wide brush to make your sweeping statments about most spa dealers.
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When you name something "dichlor, the dirty little secret" then you are clearly saying someone is decieiving someone else which is a joke.
It's decieiving NOT to tell someone the whole story, when you know it yourself.
Exactly, you have an agenda. And tehn you turn around and ot of the other side of your mouth you say
My only agenda is to inform people about the risks of using only Dichlor, and suggest an alternative. What's your agenda, to destroy the messenger?
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It's decieiving NOT to tell someone the whole story, when you know it yourself.
My only agenda is to inform people about the risks of using only Dichlor, and suggest an alternative. What's your agenda, to destroy the messenger?
Its not the "whole" story. Its your story.
This entire "dirty little secrets" thread is an unfounded attack on dealers and the fact that you even come out and say "I trust truck drivers more than most spa dealers" pretty much explains your agenda.
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Its not the "whole" story. Its your story.
These are facts, that are not disputed, even by you. You're only argument is that you never had (seen) a problem with using only Dichlor. The fact is there is plenty of evidence that says it is riskier, especially during high bather loads.
This entire "dirty little secrets" thread is an unfounded attack on dealers and the fact that you even come out and say "I trust truck drivers more than most spa dealers" pretty much explains your agenda.
No, it's founded on scientific facts. I happen to trust truck drivers (who aren't selling anything) over anyone who is (spa dealers). I don't trust car dealers either. Big deal!
Why don't you just state your experience, opinion, and let the folks decide? Again, what's you agenda, to silence the messenger?
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If I took the time to tell a customer all you have posted so simply,I wouldn't get anything done. Most if not all retailers cant spend that amount of time explaining all that. Because I could guarantee you the customers eyes would gloss over like a dear caught in headlights.
Or do we tell them just use dichlor once, then bleach the rest of the time, maintain your PH/alk and all will be fine and call me if there is a problem? What you have written over how many pages and threads doesn't seem that easy to me.
I love dealing with chemical questions hell any spa related question for that matter. But, you can spend a great deal of time with a person or on the phone with one whether they bought a spa from us or not . Now if its slow not a problem. If its really busy its another story.
Try not to take what everyone says so personal, we have opinions as well, it doesn't sound like you are in retail, most of us dealers here deal with this daily, if you hadn't noticed they make up the majority of replies. So if we have questions or comments forgive us. I could honestly say the dealers here are far from the used car salesman stereo type you have dealt with.
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If that's the case Doctors should have a longer life spans than everyone else. But to be fair, I trust truck drivers more than most spa dealers.
Seriously, and I mean this not as a jab or smart alec remark, but what dealer did you deal with that pissed you off so bad that you can't let go of it?
As a dealer, you've made so many disparaging remarks I have to wonder what happened in your past. That, or your work for Clorox. I've never seen anyone promote one specific brand of bleach ever on here.
And while I do appreciate your tenacity on going out and learning about chemistry, I think many other people on here have made a great point that there is more than one way to treat a spa. I've said it many times, I'm in the minority on this site in my belief (I'm a bromine user, both in my store and at my home), but that's the way it goes.
It's decieiving NOT to tell someone the whole story, when you know it yourself.
Funny that you had to wait to point out the pH of sodium hypochlorite until someone else brought it up. Or that you still haven't mentioned that the percentage of chlorine degrades over time. There's a dirty little secret for you.
The fact is, the Dichlor/Bleach method is cheaper and safer than using only Dichlor. Nobody can, or does dispute this.
Sure, bleach is cheaper. I won't argue that. But "safer" I have a problem with. Any adult that is competent with their chems can handle one just as safe as the other.
The overall problem as I see it here, Nitro, is you come across as hating virtually all dealers, and more importantly you seem adamant that this is the ONLY method that should be used.
There are multiple methods that can be used, and depending on the individual, some are better than others. I pride myself on the fact that my customers come first, but you have to realize that us dealers are in business, not running a non-profit organization. When many of us get on here to give advice, we do it because we love to help. Not to mention, many of us do this on our free time as well. We aren't here promoting our specific websites or store fronts.
I'm sorry that you think all dealers are slime and are trying to trick the customers. I live on a very meager salary to do what I love doing, and that is helping people relax and enjoy their hot tub.
Sure there are deceitful people out there in this industry, but I'm sure there are in yours, what ever that may be. But try and put yourself in our position and then tell me how you would handle your business.
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This post is to inform spa users (and professionals who want to learn something) about the potential risks of using too much Dichlor, and to give them another option.
Well, you certainly have strong opinions.
So - if people toss in bleach when the TA and pH are high, and the spa gets calcified because of the high pH in bleach (just under 13) - and it fries a heating element... I suppose we evil dealers are to blame too, right?
Look Nitro, put out your opinions on this stuff if you want but please stop trying to make it out to be a conspiracy. If your system was better, easier, cheaper, why wouldn't the dealers and manufacturers get on board? Don't you think we want to make the ownership experience as easy as we can?
8-)
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I just want to say, my only "agenda" is to provide information about the risks of using too much Dichlor, and to provide an alternative. I'm not profiting from this, except the good feeling I get when I read posts from people that succeed at maintaining their tub, when the couldn't before. If that's bad, then I am guilty of it.
I do believe most spa retailers, professionals are good people, but just uninformed when it comes to Dichlor and CYA. I really don't have a problem with them. I have a bigger problem with the industry in general, because they seem to be ignoring these facts. Think about it. If the tobacco industry found out that smoking was bad for you, and didn't tell their customers, would that be bad. But I've been smoking for 20 years, with no problems, yet. I know using Dichlor is not as risky as smoking, but you get the point.
Like I continue to say throughout this thread. I'm not saying using only Dichlor WILL cause problems. But the more you use the less effective it is at sanitizing, hence more risky it becomes. I really don't expect Dealers/Retailers to stop selling Dichlor, or tell people to use bleach. However, if they do know about the effect of CYA, they should at least keep that in mind, when dealing with customers. If they know a customer has high bather load, or having sanitation problems, they shouldn't recommend only Dichlor. They should recommend Bromine, or N2 or MPS or Bleach or whatever.
My point is the FC/CYA ratio should not be ignored. The industry is ignoring it for now. Some dealers/retailers are ignore it also. I won't go into my personal issues with spa dealers, because it's really irrelevant. I just have a problem with anyone who knows this information, and chooses to ignore it. If this information gets out there enough, maybe the industry will take notice.
I am in the business of automating. I have automated MANY business processes over the last 20 years. Hot tub water chemistry is just another process that I'm trying to automate, as a hobby though. And my name isn't really Nitro.
I really don't want to offend the professionals on this board. I'd rather us put ours heads together to come up with better ways to keep our tub clean, and help new users in the process. However, I will defend ANY information I know to be correct. If it turns out that FC/CYA is just a myth, or doesn't really matter, I'll be the first one here posting it. But so far NOBODY has been able to dispute it. Just because you've been using Dichlor for years with no problems, doesn't mean you won't or not at a higher risk. There are many people who do have problems.
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Nitro,
It is not the information, but the style of your posts and one-sided presentation that is clearly offensive to some people. Also, generalizations about dealers is like prejudice and is uncalled for. Expressing your own personal experience is one thing, but assuming all or even most are the same is inappropriate. I believe an apology is in order (as well as forgiveness) to help clear the air and start fresh.
You are far more passionate about the Dichlor-then-bleach method than I am even though I was the one who suggested it. Initially, the aeration pH rise problems weren't as fully handled, though they were understood, and one person (who didn't monitor pH nor lower TA) had the same problem of scaling Chas referred to and I'm sure there were some others who just read "use bleach" and missed adding Dichlor initially so would have degraded their hot tub covers and other components a lot faster. These are the kinds of things dealers handle every day, where some hot tub users can only deal with the simplest of instructions and even then sometimes make mistakes.
Any new method or approach takes time to tweak and understand how to make it easy in practice. Chemical theory is one thing, but it needs to be balanced by what works well and account for real-world factors. That's why I read about people's experiences and adjust the methods or chemical models to take account of it though I don't change the fundamental chemistry. This approach of combining chemical theory with real-world observations has led to discoveries such as significantly lowering the TA reducing the pH rise to near-stability as you have found (and is the case in my pool as well, though in that case I have a pool cover so the TA doesn't have to be very low) and to the use of Borates as an alternative pH buffer.
It is true that I am very disappointed in a pool & spa industry that does not even disclose basic facts that are useful, such as how much CYA gets added relative to FC for Dichlor and Trichlor and how much CH gets added for Cal-Hypo and how much salt for all sources of chlorine and extra salt for most hypochlorites, etc. If you look at pool forums, you will see many, many, many people who get algae in their pools by using Trichlor tabs letting their CYA rise and not maintaining a higher FC or using an algaecide or phosphate remover to inhibit such growth. Though I didn't get algae, it was increased chlorine demand and cloudy water (a nascent algae bloom) 6 years ago that got me started into looking at pool water chemistry when my local dealers couldn't explain why it happened. My CYA had gone from 30 ppm to 150 ppm in 1-1/2 years (11 "in-season" months) from continued use of Trichlor, even at a low 0.8 ppm FC per day usage rate. However, I don't blame the dealers since they only know what they are taught or told, mostly by manufacturers (or courses mostly influenced by the manufacturers).
There is also no one "right" answer or "best" method. There are pros and cons so what is important is to be frank and honest with full disclosure. There is no law requiring residential pools or spas to sanitize their water at all -- the laws are only for product labeling where sanitizers used for pools and spas can only be labeled as such if they pass certain stringent tests. There are many products saying they are EPA-approved, but they are approved only as pesticides, which is the same as saying they are algaecides and do not kill pathogens quickly enough to pass the stringent tests. It's a spectrum of risk and people can choose wherever they want to be on that spectrum.
TubsAndCues, the reason Nitro refers specifically to 6% Clorox regular unscented bleach is that we have found that it has the least amount of "excess lye" in it (the bleach pH is 11.4) which means that if you have your TA low then you won't get much pH rise from using this product (the pH rises when you add the bleach and then drops as the chlorine gets used/consumed). The off-brand Ultra bleaches, which are also 6% strength, seem to all have quite a bit more extra lye in them (their pH is 12.5 or higher) so use of these products will increase the pH over time even if there was no aeration/outgassing.
Richard
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"I have automated MANY business processes over the last 20 years.
Hot tub water chemistry is just another process that I'm trying to automate"
Hip Hip Hooray if you can help push that agenda forward.
I would think chemical automation of some sort would be a huge boom
for spa dealers and the entire industry. In my opinion water issues that
spa owners face is the single biggest noose around the spa business.
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Hip Hip Hooray if you can help push that agenda forward.
I would think chemical automation of some sort would be a huge boom
for spa dealers and the entire industry. In my opinion water issues that
spa owners face is the single biggest noose around the spa business.
I mentioned this in another thread earlier today, but the problem with it is cost, which is one of the big factors many people will use bleach in their tubs.
It seems like a no win situation. People don't want to pay for it if it's too expensive, regardless of if they could make it work properly.
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I agree Tubs/Cues but breakthroughs usually happen as a surprise to many.
Innovation is often met with "it'll never work".
I bet Apple was told countless times i-Tunes would never change the record industry.
I am hopeful some degree of water chemisty automation will happen.
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I do want to apologize to anyone I have offended, especially Spatech. I may have categorized all spa/pool professionals as being bad, but that was not my intention. However, it's difficult to like someone while being attacked by them at the same time. ::) But I digress.
As I have said MANY times, and I do still believe, MOST spa/pool professionals are good people just trying to make a living helping people care for their water. My problem (like Chem Geek's) is with the industry denying these facts. But it doesn't help that a FEW professionals also deny (or argue against) the facts, when presented in front of them. The way I look at it, the only way the industry will change, is if either the dealers/retailers suggest it, or the people are informed and start to demand it.
I also agree with Chem Geek, that there is more than one way to sanitize your tub, Bromine, Nature 2, SWCG etc. I just happen to believe the Dichlor/Bleach method to be very much superior to the Dichlor Only method. That's why I promote it to Dichlor users. I say give users all the facts, and let them make up their own mind. My ONLY problem (and the reason for this thread) is some facts are being left out.
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TubsAndCues,
You make a good point. The more automation, the more expensive. But usually what happens is, the good options eventually become standard.
As I mentioned, I'd be happy if a chemical company would come out with a Starter Pack containing CYA and Borates. Unfortunately I don't see that happenning any time soon, because there's no market.
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Nice to see the hot tub covers and other spa components finally get mentioned. Thanks ChemGeek. I really hate this system (no offense ChemGeek because I think your reasoning is correct) because most people just don't get it. They end up thinking you replace all dichlor with bleach which plays havoc with hot tub covers especially because of heavy off-gassing.
The thing I don't understand about this Dichlor/Bleach thing is the functional argument. Nitro, you say the evil spa chemical industry is tricking people into buying expensive products when plain old bleach and baking soda work just fine. So it's about the money. But then you hint that dichlor treated tubs are not as safe because the CYA levels get too high. So now it's about safety. But the CYA levels don't start getting too high until the water is 4-5 months old. If people were to drain and refill every 3 months as recommended by almost every professional and company in this industry you 1) dont have high enough CYA levels to render the dichlor ineffective and 2) keep the TDS levels in check to keep all of your water care products the most effective. I don't understand the point of harping on dichlor when people just need to drain and refill on a regular schedule.
And if this is an educational issue and your end goal is to keep people in safe water, what's easier to explain to the customer?
A) Once your water gets older than 3-4 months, all the chemicals that keep your water sanitized become drastically less effective for various reasons so you should change your water 3-4 times a year.
OR
B) What you've taken multiples pages to lay out and explain and then subsequently argued with most of the people on this forum over the details.
I'm glad you're an interested spa owner that wants to know about water chemistry. You're in the minority on that one though. Most people want simple and this aint simple so it will NEVER go mainstream no matter what the reasoning behind it is.
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Just a quick comment from a new spa owner: I don't (yet) find the _easy_ method easy: reading the dichlor/bleach method and this discussion has made me want to drain the spa and send it back to the store, or push it off a cliff.
I'm a bright guy by most counts, but I found this thread via Google because I'm having no luck getting the free chlorine reading up and obviously need to do far more studying than I ever anticipated. Now I should buy a wet chemical test kit?! Man I just want to soak my aching bones. :(
I found this forum before I bought a tub and it was fairly helpful then; I have nothing but respect for everyone here. All I'm saying is: don't underestimate the newbieness of the newbie.
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Just a quick comment from a new spa owner: I don't (yet) find the _easy_ method easy: reading the dichlor/bleach method and this discussion has made me want to drain the spa and send it back to the store, or push it off a cliff.
I'm a bright guy by most counts, but I found this thread via Google because I'm having no luck getting the free chlorine reading up and obviously need to do far more studying than I ever anticipated. Now I should buy a wet chemical test kit?! Man I just want to soak my aching bones. :(
I found this forum before I bought a tub and it was fairly helpful then; I have nothing but respect for everyone here. All I'm saying is: don't underestimate the newbieness of the newbie.
That's why I say stick with the dealer you bought your tub from until you get a handle on it. If you still can't after a few weeks to a month, then test out a different method.
Many of us on here have differing opinions as to what is the best one, (as can clearly be witnessed here - with emotion at that!) and someone will help you find what is best for your situation.
It's spa owners like you that professionals like myself need to take the time with and show you the easiest and most efficient way for you and your tub, not just a generalized/blanket method.
The best advice I can give you is twofold. First, don't stress yourself out over it. It's a hot tub and is meant for you to relax. Second, don't give up too early before trying a new method. There is a learning curve, and some people get a grasp of it sooner than others. Jumping the gun and switching too soon can cause more headaches than solutions.
Best of luck to you, and don't forget to enjoy your tub. It's not there to create more stress, it's there to take it away!
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Read http://www.whatsthebest-hottub.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?num=1213274466
I think most folks overthink the spa care.
8-)
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Thanks folks, and Chas, I'm taking that advice. Folks who PM'd me: sorry no replies possible til I reach 5 posts.
I think I just have to find a way to dissolve these bromine tablets faster? Crush them maybe. I'll get it.
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Wow. What a thread! I am not a chemist and cannot even begin to dispute or take sides over the best water treatment method. However, almost one year ago I became a first-time owner and hot tub newbie. Out of fear and conflicting information from various sources, I decided to follow the water maintenance suggestions straight out of the owner's manual. One year and three water changes later my maintenance costs have averaged $10.00 per month, the water stays fresh and clean, and no one has came down with an infection.
MY personal opinion is that if common household bleach was "better", then Hot Spring would sell you a gallon of re-branded Chlorox for $49.99. Also, I don't mind paying $10.00 per month for chemicals and cartridges considering I spent $8,000.00 on an agitating hot water bowl. :)
I understand this thread seems more oriented towards water sanitation than chemical costs, but... If household bleach was the magical answer for cheap, effective water sanitation, then why isn't it found in commercial applications and why haven't the manufacturers marketed it as an additional product line for yet more profit?
With all the liability involved with products these days, I think I'll stick with the manufacturer's recommendations until I get my chemical engineering degree (never). If I use bleach and my skin falls off and my hot tub explodes, then it's my problem. If I use dichlor and my skin falls off and my hot tub explodes, then the manufacturer is subject to liability because the manual specifically states dichlor is recommended and approved for reliability and sanitation.
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With all the liability involved with products these days, I think I'll stick with the manufacturer's recommendations until I get my chemical engineering degree (never). If I use bleach and my skin falls off and my hot tub explodes, then it's my problem. If I use dichlor and my skin falls off and my hot tub explodes, then the manufacturer is subject to liability because the manual specifically states dichlor is recommended and approved for reliability and sanitation.
I'm really trying to stay out of this thread, but I did want to say that Roger makes a very good point
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MY personal opinion is that if common household bleach was "better", then Hot Spring would sell you a gallon of re-branded Chlorox for $49.99. Also, I don't mind paying $10.00 per month for chemicals and cartridges considering I spent $8,000.00 on an agitating hot water bowl. :)
.....If I use dichlor and my skin falls off and my hot tub explodes, then the manufacturer is subject to liability because the manual specifically states dichlor is recommended and approved for reliability and sanitation.
Very good logic, very well stated.
8-)
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4 pages about dichlor not good. And guys like me and Chas and thousands of others been using it for 20 or more years with not one single problem, clean sanitized water always. What's all the hub-bub?
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There were 36 incidents of hot tub itch, rash, bumps, or hot tub lung reported on another forum over around 3-1/2 years (I stopped keeping track months ago and there have been more reported since). Some were confirmed by doctors with swabs as Pseudomonas aeruginosa (most were just diagnosed visually) while the hot tub lung was confirmed as Mycobacterium avium. Most incidents were due to low or no sanitizer including use of alternative systems. 8 of the incidents were with Dichlor-only use and most of these had problems only after around 2 or more months and were generally tubs used daily with Dichlor added after each soak in sufficient amounts to register at least some FC before the next soak -- these people were doing everything right, as far as they knew.
That is the ONLY reason I got interested in seeing if perhaps it might be better to have more consistent disinfection with initial Dichlor and then switching to bleach before the CYA built up too much. I've communicated with the people who have had these problems and it's not something to be flip about. Unfortunately, Dichlor-then-bleach has downsides (that can be mitigated) but is more complicated for some people. On the plus side, those that do manage it find their water to either last longer or to have better quality at the point when they do change it.
I am NOT pushing this method, but I don't think one should ignore the problems that have been reported. The other ways of avoiding the problems would be to use N2 or similar metal ion system along with Dichlor or MPS (since there were far fewer incidents with N2) or one could change the water more frequently, possibly after 2 months if the tub is used daily (or, of course, one could use bromine or Baqua/biguanide/PHMB instead but need to maintain appropriate sanitizer levels in any case). Obviously the odds of having a problem are low to begin with, but it's a spectrum of risk and I don't think these people are just making this stuff up.
Richard
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Every time you add 10 ppm FC using Dichlor, you add 9 ppm CYA. Your Active Chlorine (AC) is FC/CYA. That means your AC (Effective Sanitation) drops by 1/10th every time your add 11 ppm FC to your tub using Dichlor.
Picture this: It's one week after filling your tub, and you're using only Dichlor as a sanitizer. Your CYA is 20 ppm. Your FC is 3-6 ppm, and the water is pristine. A month later, assuming your FC is 3-6 ppm, it will only be as effective as if it were 0.5-1 ppm the first week. After two months it will only be as effective as if it were 0.25-0.5. After three months your effective sanitation level (AC) is only as effective as if you had 0.15-0.3 the first week.
Would you keep your FC at 0.15-0.3 ppm one week after a refill?
The point is, the effectiveness of the FC (sanitizer i.e. Dichlor) continuously drops as you add more Dichlor to the tub. After three months, the only way to get that same AC (Effective Sanitation) you once had the first week, is to added 50-100 ppm FC. Not too practical!
Bottom Line: the more Dichlor you use, the less effective it becomes.
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I personally use the “add a teaspoon of dichlor method” after every use. I’m very good about maintaining water chemistry. My water is always crystal clear. 2 ½ years after owning it…I developed small itchy bumps on my arms and my wife has since developed very itchy bumpy skin. My problem went away…hers hasn’t. I never used Nature 2…but I think I’ll try that next after a thorough cleaning of the spa. If that doesn’t work then I’ll try the bleach method.
For those of you who aren’t having problems…I probably wouldn’t change a thing. But for those of us who are…the bleach theory might be something to experiment with.
…just my thoughts.
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I personally use the “add a teaspoon of dichlor method” after every use. I’m very good about maintaining water chemistry. My water is always crystal clear. 2 ½ years after owning it…I developed small itchy bumps on my arms and my wife has since developed very itchy bumpy skin. My problem went away…hers hasn’t. I never used Nature 2…but I think I’ll try that next after a thorough cleaning of the spa. If that doesn’t work then I’ll try the bleach method.
If you are only adding just one teaspoon of Dichlor after a soak, then you are very likely not using nearly enough chlorine to oxidize your bather waste unless you are also adding another oxidizer such as non-chlorine shock (MPS) or have an ozonator. At hot temps (100-104F) it takes around 3-1/2 teaspoons of Dichlor for every person-hour of soaking. One teaspoon would only be good for around 15 minutes of one person soaking (unless you don't sweat as much as average). If both you and your wife soak for 20 minutes, then you would need around 2-1/3 teaspoon of Dichlor after each soak.
Did you test your chlorine level before your next soak to see if there was measurable (about 1 ppm FC) chlorine? If not, then you probably had near zero chlorine in the water for long periods of time because whatever chlorine you added probably got consumed by the ammonia and urea in your sweat and urine very quickly. Once you get behind, you don't catch up unless you shock the tub with enough oxidizer. Most people do not use enough oxidizer unless they are measuring their sanitizer levels to make sure they still have a residual the next day before they soak again.
Richard
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If you are only adding just one teaspoon of Dichlor after a soak, then you are very likely not using nearly enough chlorine to oxidize your bather waste unless you are also adding another oxidizer such as non-chlorine shock (MPS) or have an ozonator. At hot temps (100-104F) it takes around 3-1/2 teaspoons of Dichlor for every person-hour of soaking. One teaspoon would only be good for around 15 minutes of one person soaking (unless you don't sweat as much as average). If both you and your wife soak for 20 minutes, then you would need around 2-1/3 teaspoon of Dichlor after each soak.
Did you test your chlorine level before your next soak to see if there was measurable (about 1 ppm FC) chlorine? If not, then you probably had near zero chlorine in the water for long periods of time because whatever chlorine you added probably got consumed by the ammonia and urea in your sweat and urine very quickly. Once you get behind, you don't catch up unless you shock the tub with enough oxidizer. Most people do not use enough oxidizer unless they are measuring their sanitizer levels to make sure they still have a residual the next day before they soak again.
Richard
Richard,
You don't address gallons here. Is that a factor. Also in this statement you are addressing oxidation, not sanitation. Is the 1 teaspoon enough for sanitation? Then with weekly oxidation (MPS or chlorine) should Markus be doing ok?
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Richard,
You don't address gallons here. Is that a factor. Also in this statement you are addressing oxidation, not sanitation. Is the 1 teaspoon enough for sanitation? Then with weekly oxidation (MPS or chlorine) should Markus be doing ok?
I specifically quoted the amount of Dichlor that needs to be used rather than quote an FC that is needed because the size of the tub in gallons is not a factor when it comes to the amount of oxidizer physical amount (not concentration in the water) required to get rid of bather waste. The rough "rule" is an over-simplification because it does combine the amount needed for oxidation of bather waste with a smaller amount of normal loss over a 24-hour period, but the bulk of chlorine usage is for oxidation.
As for sanitation, that is why I asked whether the Free Chlorine (FC) was at a measurable level (1 ppm or more) just before the next soak. If it was, then there was at least some chlorine left available for sanitation. Remember that chlorine for oxidation and chlorine for sanitation are the same chlorine. So if there is bather waste, then the chlorine will mostly get used up oxidizing such waste and if there is more waste than chlorine, then the chlorine level will get to zero and there will be no sanitation. This is why regular testing, at least early one before you get a feel for your usage pattern, is very important.
One can substitute MPS for chlorine as an oxidizer. It takes about twice as much MPS by volume as Dichlor for the same effect so it takes about 7 teaspoons of MPS per person-hour of soaking and this is all equivalent to around 5 fluid ounces of 6% bleach. The weekly oxidation would let one "catch up" if one fell behind, but the problem is that during the time you are "behind" you are getting no sanitation. If the shocking were to let you have excess oxidizer in the water so you get "ahead", then that would work to allow for chlorine to sanitize, but MPS doesn't last that long (probably not more than a couple of days at spa temps). Basically, you can't get away with small daily doses and a larger weekly shock. It's better to use enough oxidizer daily, assuming you are soaking every day.
It's tricky to use MPS in place of chlorine because both measure in the chlorine test, though MPS usually mostly shows up as Combined Chlorine (CC) though at high levels or soon after dosing it can show up as Free Chlorine (FC). If you have Nature2 or other metal ion system with silver, then MPS becomes an effective sanitizer so you can use mostly MPS and just use chlorine as a shock as needed if the water gets dull (that's the "low chlorine" approach with N2).
Remember that most of the hot tub itch/rash... reports were due to very low or zero sanitizer levels and this was mostly due to not using enough oxidizer to get rid of bather waste. In many cases it is because people did not scale the amount of Dichor (or other oxidizer) relative to their heavier tub usage with more than one person or with one hour soaks. The easy way to know if you are using enough is simply to test the FC level just before soaking -- if it's zero or near-zero, you aren't adding enough oxidizer after the soak.
There is a separate problem if you are using mostly Dichlor in that over months when the CYA builds up this makes the chlorine take longer to oxidize the bather waste. Depending on usage, it can get to the point where you get behind and begin measuring Combined Chlorine (CC) even before your next soak. The water can start to look a little less clear and seem sluggish. This is NOT just due to time or TDS, but is mostly due to the buildup of CYA making chlorine a slower oxidizer. With Dichlor-then-bleach, this doesn't happen so the water lasts longer, though eventually the buildup of non-oxidizable chemicals (and salt, though it takes even longer for that to become an issue) does eventually occur so a water change is still needed.
Richard
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Let me correct that statement...I add a teaspoon of dichlor for each of us. We generally stay in the tub approximately 15 minutes each night. I do monitor the FC and it is normally around 1 or 2 PPM before we enter the spa. I shock once a week with MPS and I do have an ozonator. My wife is convinced that the tub is contaminated. Tonight I Spa Purged the tub and rinsed everything down and refilled. I also cleaned the filters with a filter chemical solution.
We'll see what happens when she tries it again!
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Thanks for the clarification and sorry I misunderstood. OK, so you are using enough oxidizer and you are maintaining a residual sanitizer (except possibly at some point during the 15 minute soak itself). That's good. You didn't say the size of your tub, but let me assume that it's a pretty common 350 gallons. So 2 teaspoons (1 for each of you) of Dichlor in 350 gallons adds 4.0 ppm FC and 3.6 ppm CYA to the tub every night. That's an increase in CYA of 108 ppm per month.
So did the itchy bumpy skin initially develop within the first month after a fresh refill or did it occur after some months of use, and if the latter, after how many months?
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We are actually about to start the experiment. I just replaced the water and I will monitor how long it'll take for her itchy skin to come back.
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Let me just start by saying that after 30 years in this industry, I have never seen so many complicated responses...And if this is what potential customers think of water chemistry we might just as well start selling something simple like nuclear energy!
I know some of you love to chat up the chemistry knowledge, but so far this seems to be people who don't sell spas or have to deal with customers trying to just keep it understandable. (Ok well I have only had to deal with about 15,000 customers but hey what do I know?)
In our experience 2 things can cause a rash:
1. pH/Alkalinity not in balance
2. Sanitation too low
Vanguard: you have an ozone system right? Please make sure it is working! When did you last clean the venturi or have it serviced?
A little sanitation is fine, but once a week... make sure you hit a 10PPM level on your test strips when balancing the water so that you actually do a shock treatment. WE use enhanced shock or lithium hypochlorite as a shock agent.
Others here will recommend other products. I really don't care. The bottom line is IF you want to keep it simple, you have the perfect spa to accomplish that.
Ok, I expect a lot of attacks on this being too simple, so I will await the responses.. ;D
And as far as the 'costs' of Lithium or Enhanced vs bleach, what about the cost of a doctor because you couldn't figure it out or the time you will spend? Customers have paid $5 - 10K for great products to enhance their lives. $20 in chemicals that are easy to use, available through legitimate dealers with knowledge is a small price to pay to take care of their investments.
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Ditto.
8-)
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WE use enhanced shock or lithium hypochlorite as a shock agent.
Lithium hypochlorite produces identical chlorine as sodium hypochlorite (bleach) and also adds the same amount of extra salt and also is high in pH upon addition. Unlike Dichlor, it does not increase Cyanuric Acid (CYA). The only difference, other than being solid granular and more concentrated (by weight or volume) vs. liquid, is that it is 5-7 times more expensive than bleach for the same Free Chlorine (FC) level. See this link (http://www.thepoolteammd.com/pdfs/BioGuard%20Burn%20Out%2035.pdf) for lithium hypochlorite (pH 11 for 1% solution) and this link (http://www.thecloroxcompany.com/products/msds/bleach/cloroxregularbleach0505_.pdf ) for Clorox Regular bleach (pH 11.4). Is it really that hard to explain that 1 ounce (2 tablespoons) of lithium hypochlorite is equivalent to 5 fluid ounces of 6% bleach (unscented Clorox Regular being the best since it has the least amount of "excess lye" in it)?
So it is good that you are recommending it for shocking since it doesn't increase CYA as Dichlor does.
As I posted, most of the 36 incidents of itch/rash were too low or no sanitizer, which is consistent with what you have seen. The 8 incidents of Dichlor-only use had maintained sanitizer levels and balanced pH and TA; there were more than 8 Dichlor-only incidents, but if they didn't use enough Dichlor to have measurable FC before the soak, then they are not included in these 8 incidents and instead counted as "low or no sanitizer". Are you saying that out of 15,000 customers you have had none that had rash/itch if they had measurable FC before each soak and a reasonable pH and TA? Do all or most of your customers have ozonators or Nature2 or other systems in addition to Dichlor as the primary (daily) sanitizer?
Richard
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People are forgetting that some people are allergic to MPS.
Something else I would like to say about sanitation - we hear about "bad" things because bad news travels faster than good news AND people tend to seek advice when they are having trouble. In my limited experience on 2 forums I have "met" 100 people or so. Based on the number of people with problems there is about a 10 to 25 % base of people who have problems - a high number. But there are more than 100 or so people who own spas and they do not come in to say HI! We will only get those people who have problems, get them solved and go away. We also get people who were given wrong advice (some even from forums) and are looking for help. Based on the knowledge that if all total the spa industry sells 1,000 tubs - that percentage goes to 1 to 2.5%; if 10,000 that number goes to 0.1 to 0.25% - very low numbers.
I think it is unwise to take a captive audience, whose sole purpose is to help people with their problems (that is what we try to do) and say look at the problems that we have seen. Since most of the world can use a computer finding a place for your problem is so easy. Want to grow grass; kill bugs or learn about stock trading - go on the internet! I have owned my spa for 4 years and other than stupidity on my part and letting the spa go (other than for experimenting with things) I have not had any problems with my dichlor only routine except a time when both my boys got ear infections from dunking their heads under water - solution to that is to not dunk their heads.
A fair assessment is to take a cross section of people (can't be done on the internet) that aren't seeking advice. How many people out there own a Chrysler or Pontiac ... I own 2 Hyundai's, does that mean my cars are better?
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Let me just start by saying that after 30 years in this industry, I have never seen so many complicated responses...And if this is what potential customers think of water chemistry we might just as well start selling something simple like nuclear energy! ....
As a newbie to this game, thank you. This reminds me of a lot of many other subjects, which you can make as complicated as you want. It's like we're all sitting around a table in the local coffee shop...everyone has an opinion.
I have to admit, I've quit reading this, and posts like it. If I didn't, I'd be completely petrified to use my new tub. I bought from a reputable dealer, who has been more than willing to help. And several dealers on this site have given me their thoughts too. But I have to say, after the first week or so of getting used to things, I've found it very easy to maintain a well-balanced tub. Two months, and quite a few different people tubbing, and no itches or other nasties so far...knock on plastic!
Common sense is one thing...but when do you stop? This is only a hot tub for gosh sake!
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I think it is unwise to take a captive audience, whose sole purpose is to help people with their problems (that is what we try to do) and say look at the problems that we have seen.
I only referred to the incidents in defense when others claim there are NO problems or that they are ONLY due to low sanitizer (or TA, etc.). I totally agree with you that for most hot tub users Dichlor-only works out fine and I've said that before in some posts of mine. I am not saying people should switch from that (I'm not saying the same things Nitro is -- he's more gun-ho about this). But I am saying there is clearly known science that relates to both disinfection and oxidation (water quality) so there IS an alternative to make this more consistent.
This info is NOT meant to scare anyone, but there IS a spectrum of risk. If you use a metal ion system in addition to the chlorine regimen you are at lower risk and certainly have more "insurance" in case the chlorine level gets too low and not everyone is so diligent to maintain chlorine levels. It's not as clear as to whether Dichlor-only vs. Dichlor-then-bleach will have a noticeable lowering of risk since it's too early to tell, but the improvement in water quality after months is noticed by most who use the approach.
I'm sorry Nitro was so bold on here implying "this is the best" or "this is the only way that should be done" since it detracts from simply talking about alternative approaches.
I've also personally communicated offline with many of the people who had incidents and some of these things are quite serious, including hot tub lung and one case of Legionnaires disease (this latter case almost killed the person, but was due to not properly sanitizing a hotel room spa). So I find it insulting to them to discount real problems a small number of people have had.
One final note is that some number of rash/itch reports were apparently due to things like the jets being too strong or those with more sensitive skin, so it's not just bacterial nor chemical sources of irritation, but physical ones as well. So it's great that dealers like Spalady and Chas are able to get every single one of their customers properly tuned in their spas with correct jet flows and proper sanitation. That's why I asked whether they mostly or always have ozonators or other systems because maybe that helps and would be useful for most to know -- I'm on for whatever works.
Richard
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...One final note is that some number of rash/itch reports were apparently due to things like the jets being too strong or those with more sensitive skin, so it's not just bacterial nor chemical sources of irritation, but physical ones as well....Richard
Richard,
I agree with this as well. As a pretty new tub owner, I can tell you that my skin can take, and actually enjoy, a lot more pressure from a jet than my wife. What I find very relaxing after a particularly stressful day is getting in one of the corners that really "beats me up", and I open all jets and air, and let 'er rip! My wife would probably be screaming in pain, because they do a really good job! She's just a lot more sensitive than I am. This is one of the reasons that I'm so glad I listened to many of you before I bought, and did several wet tests to actually FEEL the jets work. We're two months into this tub, and we couldn't be happier because it has enough options in jets/pumps/air that we can both be happy at the same time.
So yes, there are other things to consider.
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I've been dumping in a couple teaspoons of dichlor after use, shocking with a couple tablespoons of dichlor for a shock or a few ozs. of MPS after 8-10 soaks for 10-15 years!! Always had crisp clear water. Never had a bacteria problem. Drained every 3-4 sometimes 5 months depending on how much use. Imagine my suprise to read this thread and find out it wasn't right!!! Now what do I do????
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Richard,
I wasn't pointing directly at you; if you felt I was - I apologize. What I was trying to say is that we all see the people who are seeking help on these forums and not seeing a lot of the people who don't need help. I repair medical equipment and you have to see how many times people, professionals, don't know what the heck they are talking about or how to use what they touch every day. I worked on something today that was "broken" and the connector was in wrong! It even had letters on it that were upside down when it was installed wrong. :-?
I have a great respect for your knowledge as I hated chemistry in college! ;D I also know you are not saying what Nitro is saying - I learned that a while ago from a conversation I had with you on one of the pool websites that you frequent. If bleach could be in powder form I certainly would use it all the time once my CYA gets to 25 or 30 but like I said dichlor is so easy to use. I think the bleach = great; everything else = bad is too pervasive on the forums that I had those conversations with you that I no longer go to them. It's a shame as I learned a lot from the originator of the first forum and also from you. I don't know Nitro but it sounds like he subscribes to that idea as well.
I disagree with the N2 or Frog people and the ozone effect. They do work somewhat but silver works slowly so I question how effective silver is in a spa situation and spa/pool ozonators can only inject so much ozone with air being at 21% O2. With my own tub, N2/frog and ozonator (which is a very small sample) I have not seen either work well. It could be my water, my tub design, my ozonator or me. My experimentation on my own tub showed that N2/frog and ozone give me 1 extra day of clear water (4 days vs 3) but clear water doesn't equal clean tub. I've tried the N2/frog on 3 separate occasions. I can actually get clear water sometimes just from dichlor for 4 or 5 days as well.
Just wanted to clear my post!
Vinny
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I've been dumping in a couple teaspoons of dichlor after use, shocking with a couple tablespoons of dichlor for a shock or a few ozs. of MPS after 8-10 soaks for 10-15 years!! Always had crisp clear water. Never had a bacteria problem. Drained every 3-4 sometimes 5 months depending on how much use. Imagine my suprise to read this thread and find out it wasn't right!!! Now what do I do????
Don't change anything. What is being discussed is something affecting a smaller number of people. Just out of curiosity, do you have an ozonator or are you using Nature2/Frog or other metal ion system? How often do you soak each week (number of soaks, how many people, how long per soak)?
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Richard,
I disagree with the N2 or Frog people and the ozone effect. They do work somewhat but silver works slowly so I question how effective silver is in a spa situation and spa/pool ozonators can only inject so much ozone with air being at 21% O2. With my own tub, N2/frog and ozonator (which is a very small sample) I have not seen either work well. It could be my water, my tub design, my ozonator or me. My experimentation on my own tub showed that N2/frog and ozone give me 1 extra day of clear water (4 days vs 3) but clear water doesn't equal clean tub. I've tried the N2/frog on 3 separate occasions. I can actually get clear water sometimes just from dichlor for 4 or 5 days as well.
Vinny, not to worry. I don't strongly recommend the dichlor-then-bleach unless people are specifically having problems with sanitation and are already dosing properly or if they really want to try it with its caveats. On the other hand, I'm not opposed to anyone using it, but those with ozonators need to be particularly careful due to the extra aeration from the ozonator so they have to watch the pH rise issue much more carefully (and control TA and use borates, as needed). I agree that people tend to seek out help on forums mostly when things are going badly or when they are new and have questions, but a lot of people don't go to the forums at all so if there are common reports on a forum, odds are there are a lot of people in absolute numbers, if not in percentage, that are having similar problems.
At first, I too was skeptical about silver since it is a slower killer, but it still kills quickly enough to prevent uncontrolled bacteria growth though not fast enough to prevent person-to-person transmission and it's not great against viruses. I did find scientific support for silver with non-chlorine shock (MPS) described here (http://www.poolspaforum.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=11366&st=0&p=52608&#entry52608) which explains how N2 could have passed EPA registration for their "low chlorine" recipe which primarily uses MPS. This combination ONLY works at hot spa temperatures, so would not work in pools. As for the bacteria that causes hot tub itch, I'm only assuming that it's helpful given the relative paucity of reports of trouble with those using N2 (though there were a few reports; with Dichlor after 1-2 months).
I've now looked back to see who was using an ozonator (that we know of) and there are reports of problems with those using an ozonator, but less than those without. But without knowing the sample size of how many people have spas with ozonators, how many with N2, etc., it's hard to draw any solid conclusions about such prevention.
What does seem to be known about ozonators from people's reports (not just on itch/rash, but generally) is that 1) they vary in terms of using more or less chlorine and 2) they can fail yet the air injection bubbles have people think they are still working. It seems that the ozonator works better in higher bather load conditions since it oxidizes more bather waste so chlorine doesn't have to. Under lower bather load conditions, it can end up oxidizing chlorine itself and/or making it outgas faster, thus using it up more quickly.
I wouldn't expect N2 to help keep water that clear since it's not an oxidizer -- it would just prevent bacterial growth (OK if tub not in use, but with bather waste the water would get dull without an oxidizer). I would, however, expect a working ozonator to keep the water clear so am surprised at your situation -- most posts I've seen report ozonators keeping water clear -- at least when they are working. Do you know if your system is Corona Discharge (CD) or Ultraviolet (UV)?
Richard
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I sorta agree with the poster that said they weren't too interested in reading posts like these. I keep reading just out of curiosity. As I stated before, I'm no chemist and I'm at the mercy of my nose, eyes, less-than-perfect test strips, and owner's manual to maintain my water chemistry. My tub came with ozone. I replace the Nature2 cartridge at each refill. I use only a weekly dichlor shock and a teaspoon or two before and/or after each use (depending on how long it's been since used, bather load, etc.). I've had dozens of people use my hot tub anywhere form 30 minutes to several hours. Several completely submerged themselves (I'm not a big fan of "diving" in a hot tub). I change my water every 4 months at which time I also rinse off my filters. The spa is always covered when not in use. I've yet to have anyone experience even the slightest infection or allergy.
My dealer has told me some of the "horror" stories he's seen. I believe every one of them. I can only imagine owners who assume the hot tub will magically take care of itself and who believe maintenance is overrated. I can also imagine those who dump gallons of unnecessary chemicals out of fear. Gotta find a happy medium! :D
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I've been dumping in a couple teaspoons of dichlor after use, shocking with a couple tablespoons of dichlor for a shock or a few ozs. of MPS after 8-10 soaks for 10-15 years!! Always had crisp clear water. Never had a bacteria problem. Drained every 3-4 sometimes 5 months depending on how much use. Imagine my suprise to read this thread and find out it wasn't right!!! Now what do I do????
That was funny. I just read through this thing today. Holy Crap!! All this over how to take care of a hot tub?
I've found that my Dichlor, Ozone, N2, and MPS has worked just fine and dandy.
I think I'll keep on doing it that way. Plus, my little plastic bottles have directions on them so when I forget, I can just read it again. I checked my bleach in my laundry room...there are no directions for how much to use in a hot tub. Since I don't really care if I remember how much to put in every time, I like having the directions on the bottle.
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Since I continue to get attacked here, I'd like to clear the record.
My first post is nothing but FACTS, and completely unbiased. The reason for the "Dirty Little Secret" title is because the industry continues to ignore these facts. I even give the real (and legitimate) reason the industry initially pushed Dichlor. It is because using ONLY Unstabilized Chlorine (Bleach) is too strong. i.e. Using ONLY Dichlor is better than using ONLY Bleach. However, if you read the posts that followed, you will see that the "Bleach is Bad" argument immediately started coming from some other members. I then gave a VALID argument for using the Dichlor/Bleach method as opposed to using only Dichlor. Then we continued to get bombarded with Bleach is bad, it's too dangerous, it's difficult to use, it's too complicated, Lithium Hypochlorite is better than Bleach etc. All of which are very thin. The only real disadvantages to using Bleach are, you need to keep track of CYA before switching to bleach, and you'll need to keep your TA lower. However, the advantages are MANY.
I agree with Chem Geek with just about everything except one thing. I believe the Dichlor Only method causes many more problems than is currently known. Who's to say if a person with No(Low) Chlorine would not have had the problem if they were able to shock the tub to a proper level (FC=10, CYA=20) on a regular basis. I don't think it's possible to accurately estimate the percentage of problems caused by No(Low) Chlorine vs High CYA, unless you measured everyone's CYA who had a problem, and graphed it. The Bottom Line is: The higher CYA gets, the lower the effectiveness (sanitation and oxidation) of the Chlorine. So it doesn't take a genius to figure out, the higher your CYA the more water problems you'll have. That doesn't mean you WILL have problems. It just means your chances of having water problems get higher as your CYA raises. Keep that in mind when determining how often to change your water.
Regardless of the real percent of High CYA problems, one thing IS clear. The Dichlor/Bleach method does have advantages over using Only Dichlor. And for SOME members on this board to dismiss them is a real shame. For the record, I don't think everyone using Dichlor should switch to Bleach. However, I do believe they should know about the risks of having high CYA. As I have said MANY times, the Dichlor/Bleach method is not for everyone, but some are saying it's not for anyone. I don't think Dichlor is as bad, as they seem to think Bleach is. Which is unusual to me, because there are plenty of regular everyday folks (who are not chemists or mathematicians, and who do not obsess over their tub) using the Dichlor/Bleach method who find it very easy to use. It seems the only people who have a problem understanding this method (and its benefits) are "experts".
Carry on. ;)
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Don't change anything. What is being discussed is something affecting a smaller number of people. Just out of curiosity, do you have an ozonator or are you using Nature2/Frog or other metal ion system? How often do you soak each week (number of soaks, how many people, how long per soak)?
I was trying to be funny Chem Geek, but when I did have a tub (currently moved to a country lake home and use sauna) that is the routine I used. And to answer your questions. Yes I used an O3 generator but it only ran for 4-6 hours per day during filtration. I was sceptical on its effectivness except to maintain already sanitized with dichlor water between soaks. Yes I used a Nature 2 stick and again, to maintain dichlor sanitized water between soaks cool but to sanitize.....not for me. Me and my x-wife soaked 1-3 times per week for 30-45 minutes. I maybe soaked longer once in a while. We had friends over a time or two a month and a few big gatherings a year.
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I was trying to be funny Chem Geek, but when I did have a tub (currently moved to a country lake home and use sauna) that is the routine I used. And to answer your questions. Yes I used an O3 generator but it only ran for 4-6 hours per day during filtration. I was sceptical on its effectivness except to maintain already sanitized with dichlor water between soaks. Yes I used a Nature 2 stick and again, to maintain dichlor sanitized water between soaks cool but to sanitize.....not for me. Me and my x-wife soaked 1-3 times per week for 30-45 minutes. I maybe soaked longer once in a while. We had friends over a time or two a month and a few big gatherings a year.
Thanks for the info. It's good that you had an ozonator because if you didn't, then you would probably have needed to add more like 3-1/2 to 5-1/4 teaspoons of Dichlor after each soak to handle the bather load and have residual FC leftover since 2 teaspoons (without an ozonator or supplemental oxidizer) would only roughly handle one person (not two) soaking for 30 minutes (at 100-104F). If the shocking was weekly with 2 tablespoons of Dichlor or 2 ounces of MPS, then that would have roughly caught up though "late" unless you had higher FC even during soaks. At around 2 times per week, the CYA (without shocking with Dichlor) was only increasing by around 30 ppm per month (assuming 2 teaspoons of Dichlor in 350 gallons) which is a slow increase so you could go quite a long time before a refill of the water would be needed. If shocking was with Dichlor (instead of MPS) weekly, then CYA would increase 77 ppm per month.
Since it is very clear that the number one reason for sanitation problems is not having enough sanitizer, the primary reason for this is that people (without an ozonator) aren't using enough oxidizer for their bather load and it seems that this is something that isn't talked about very much. Using a "per person" amount of Dichlor helps, but it also matters how long one soaks and if the water is very hot which it usually is (100-104F). Yes, there are variations of the amount of sweat, but it's nice to have a rough rule as a starting point. Then one can make sure that a residual FC is being seen before the next soak to be sure. At a minimum, people need to use a DPD (pink/red) chlorine test to measure FC and not just total chlorine (TC), so they shouldn't be using the OTO (yellow) chlorine test (or test strips, some of which are not very accurate); the FAS-DPD "count the drops" test is even better, though more expensive.
The issue of CYA, therefore, is primarily applicable to those who have higher bather load -- that use a hot tub daily, for example. One person soaking for 30 minutes every day and adding 2 teaspoons of Dichlor to a 350 gallon tub would be raising the FC around 4 ppm and over one month the CYA would rise a little over 100 ppm. It is this situation, or those with even higher bather loads (more people or longer soaks) and especially those without N2 or an ozonator that is primarily what the Dichlor-then-bleach method is trying to address so that one does not have to replace their water once a month to ensure consistently high sanitation levels.
In commercial/public spas (which generally recommend against use of CYA completely, as shown here (http://www.dsf.health.state.pa.us/health/cwp/view.asp?a=180&q=234664), though virtually all states limit both pools and spas to a maximum CYA of 100 ppm), there is a Water Replacement Interval (WRI) formula as follows:
WRI (days) = (1/3) x (Spa Volume in U.S. Gallons) / (Number of Bathers per Day)
The formula does not account for soak time but apparently assumes around 20-30 minutes average. If I use the example of one person soaking for 30 minutes which (without an ozonator) uses 2 teaspoons of Dichlor in 350 gallons, then the WRI is 117 days. The CYA level at the time of needed water replacement would be around 420 ppm, but again remember that it is recommended to not use stabilized chlorine (e.g. Dichlor) in commercial/public spas (which I believe to be too extreme -- a small amount of CYA would be less harsh on skin and swimsuits while still providing reasonable sanitation). People using Dichlor-only find that their water gets more dull and sluggish after 3-4 months of daily use (one person soaking 30 minutes every day) while with Dichlor-then-bleach the water remains near its original refill quality and if desired one can go longer between refills. This is more of an issue with very high bather loads such as 2 people soaking for an hour every day where the standard WRI would be 30 days.
Richard
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I started using bleach in my pool along with trichlor about four or five years ago. I started with bleach (along with dichlor) in my spa about two years ago after five years with dichlor or a combination of dichlor, N2 or Frog and ozone. In my situation being a daily user, bleach after using dichlor to reach the proper CYA level has worked best. It is not the easiest and it is not for everyone, but it is certainly not difficult. I now use chlorine only, no minerals, no ozone. I shock weekly with MPS because I like how it works. I use the small 24 oz bottles of regular Clorox which are easy to handle and are as small as my dichlor container. Every other week I may need to add a tablespoon of dry acid for pH but thats about it. I don't use borates or anything like that and I keep it simple.
The advantage to bleach, IMO, is of course no CYA and the lack of TDS. The water does not bog down. It has the fresh fill feel for months. Even though my water was always crystal clear with dichlor, it would slowly go downhill. At my four month water change, there was always that...there's nothing like fresh water...realization. Not so with bleach.
I am not one to recommend bleach to anyone, but you need not fear it either. While it may not be for everyone, it works, works well and is probably as pure a chlorine as is practical to use.
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Leave it to an Optima owner to put up the best post on this subject.
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Since I continue to get attacked here, I'd like to clear the record.
Nitro,
It's no doubt you are up on water chemistry.
But, IMO you were "attacked" bacause you came onto this forum and like I said before really have no history here. What are your credenditals? Are you in the pool or spa industry? Things to that nature. I believe you were also "attacked" by the dealers that were insulted by what you were saying. It's like me giving out stock market advice and saying nothing about who I am ... I could be Warren Buffet or I could be nobody or I could be an unknown proficient trader - unless there's some history about me nobody knows.
You are also giving a little bit of "wrong" information out as well. My comment about adding baking soda and raising PH was said to be wrong by you and if I read it correctly chem geek said PH can be raised by adding baking soda. I also remember from college chemistry that any time you add anything with a different PH (it has been established that baking soda has a PH around 8 or so) the PH of the solution will be changed as well. As I told chem geek I hated chemistry and I retained very little from 20+ years ago but do remember some things. I will agree that PH rises from aeration but others things change it as well.
The only other thing I will say about what you wrote and others have said it before - it's long! Some people don't want to read info and anyone wanting a quick guide certainly won't read the info you posted. I once told somebody I know to get rid of the test strips he was using and get a drop kit - he couldn't handle putting 5 drops into the vials - besides newbies those are the type of people who probably run ito the problems that are causing them grief.
These are just my opinions.
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My comment about adding baking soda and raising PH was said to be wrong by you and if I read it correctly chem geek said PH can be raised by adding baking soda. I also remember from college chemistry that any time you add anything with a different PH (it has been established that baking soda has a PH around 8 or so) the PH of the solution will be changed as well. As I told chem geek I hated chemistry and I retained very little from 20+ years ago but do remember some things. I will agree that PH rises from aeration but others things change it as well.
Vinny,
Just to be clear, one does not normally use baking soda to raise the pH because baking soda mostly raises the TA. So unless that is your intent -- to raise the TA -- you wouldn't normally use baking soda. If you are using a net acidic source of chlorine, such as Dichlor, then the TA will be dropping over time so using baking soda will compensate for that and this was your example as you were increasing TA by 40 ppm or more. One week of Dichlor at 2 teaspoons per day in 350 gallons would drop the TA by around 10 ppm when measured at the same pH (use of more Dichlor or of MPS would drop it more). Normally, well-mixed baking soda carefully and slowly added to water with thorough mixing but minimal aeration won't raise the pH very much at all, but as you saw it did for you and this can happen if the water getting concentrated baking soda were to outgas right away which is certainly plausible (if you add baking soda to hot water you can see this carbonation effect at the surface).
If there were no outgassing effect, then adding enough baking soda to raise the TA from 80 ppm to 120 ppm would raise the pH from 7.5 to around 7.6. Since you saw more of a rise, not all of the baking soda went into and stayed in the water. Some of it quickly outgassed as carbon dioxide, probably near the surface as you were adding it since the TA would be very high locally until the water got more thoroughly mixed. The problem is that having the pH rise in a consistent manner is tricky since it depends on how quickly you add it and how quickly it mixes and dilutes. Also, if you don't want to raise the TA as much but want to raise the pH, then baking soda isn't a good choice -- pH Up (sodium carbonate) would be better and 20 Mule Team Borax or aeration would be even better.
For those interested in the chemistry, most of the effect of having the pH rise from adding baking soda is from the following:
NaHCO3(s) ----> Na+ + HCO3-
Baking Soda ---> Sodium Ion + Bicarbonate Ion
HCO3- + H2O <---> H2CO3 + OH-
Bicarbonate Ion + Water <---> Carbonic Acid + Hydroxyl Ion
THIS IS WHAT MOSTLY CAUSES THE pH TO RISE
H2CO3 <---> CO2(aq) + H2O
Carbonic Acid <---> Aqueous Carbon Dioxide + Water
CO2(aq) ---> CO2(g)
Aqueous Carbon Dioxide ---> Carbon Dioxide Gas
It is that last step that is the outgassing of carbon dioxide and drives more of the second reaction to occur which is what causes the pH to rise more. Were it not for that last step, the first steps would have the pH rise only a little since most of the added bicarbonate remains bicarbonate (at a pH of 7.5, 94.1% of the carbonates in the water are in the form of bicarbonate ion, 5.7% is in the form of aqueous carbon dioxide, 0.2% is in the form of carbonate ion, and a very small amount is in the form of carbonic acid).
Richard
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are there any forms of granular chlorine, such as spa 56, that have less or no cya? is it a hard fact that chlorine effectiveness goes down at the exact rate as cya increases. in other words if cya at twice the recomended level decreases effectiveness by half is it accurate to say that it always decreases at the same rate as cya rises beyond these levels?
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are there any forms of granular chlorine, such as spa 56, that have less or no cya? is it a hard fact that chlorine effectiveness goes down at the exact rate as cya increases. in other words if cya at twice the recomended level decreases effectiveness by half is it accurate to say that it always decreases at the same rate as cya rises beyond these levels?
The amount of CYA in any Dichlor product is the same in proportion to the amount of chlorine that is added. The CYA is not separate from the chlorine. It is a combined chemical species (Dichlor is shown here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Troclosene.svg); CYA is shown here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Cyanuric_acid.png)). When in water, some of the chlorine attached to the CYA becomes free hypochlorous acid. The following are chemical facts independent of concentration or pool/spa size.
For every 10 ppm Free Chlorine (FC) added by Dichlor, it also increases Cyanuric Acid (CYA) by 9 ppm.
For every 10 ppm FC added by Trichlor, it also increases CYA by 6 ppm.
For every 10 ppm FC added by Cal-Hypo, it also increases Calcium Hardness (CH) by (at least) 7 ppm.
As for the disinfection rate vs. CYA level, I wrote about that here (http://www.whatsthebest-hottub.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?num=1240419142/34#34) including links to various scientific studies showing the roughly proportional decline. The proportionality comes from the chemistry so is not a surprise. However, most bacteria are very easy to kill so even a lower disinfection rate is not normally a problem. That's what Vermonter found and is why he proposed Dichlor-only after a soak as being OK. I just noticed that there were quite a few problem reports with those who thought they had proper sanitation, but found issues after 1-2 months of Dichlor-only use in tubs that were used a lot (i.e. every day). It's no doubt a small percentage of incidents and it's too small a number to be "proof" of anything, but I figured why not look at the science and come up with an alternative method for more consistent sanitation.
Richard
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are there any forms of granular chlorine, such as spa 56, that have less or no cya?
Lithium hypochlorite is a granular chlorine that has no CYA or calcium. It does have a relatively low active chlorine percentage at 35 and is the most expensive practical chlorine. With a pH of 11, it is very close to bleach. At 65% other stuff, lithium adds significantly to TDS.
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I am not one to recommend bleach to anyone...
Just curious. Why would you not recommend it?
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Just curious. Why would you not recommend it?
First, I don't feel I am qualified in this field to recommend anything. I can only comment on my experiences with the products I try or use. I have found bleach to work wonderfully, but I feel individuals should be very comfortable with the chemistry before using it. Owners look to their dealers and manufacturers for expert advise and bleach definitely goes against the grain. IMO, if someone has used bromine or a more widely acceptabe form of chlorine for a while, has experienced the ups, downs, ins and outs of water issues and would like to experiment with something outside the box that may or may not be better than what they've been using...then bleach may just be the trick. I use it and don't see any reason to change right now, but again, I can only comment on my experience. If people want to use that in their decision to use or not use a product, then that is good, but it is not a recommendation.
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I guess I am one of few who use Trichlor tabs in a floater and dose with Dichlor after heavy use and use MPS to shock on weekends. My water is always fresh, my cover is over 3 years old and looks great and I change my water every 4 months.
I love my water and it loves me.....Happy Tubbing
Ray ::)
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Okay, I think the horse is dead and it is being thoroughly beat. Just my one cent.
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Okay, I think the horse is dead and it is being thoroughly beat. Just my one cent.
Horsey rides are only one penny! I'm in!
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I started using bleach in my pool along with trichlor about four or five years ago. I started with bleach (along with dichlor) in my spa about two years ago after five years with dichlor or a combination of dichlor, N2 or Frog and ozone. In my situation being a daily user, bleach after using dichlor to reach the proper CYA level has worked best. It is not the easiest and it is not for everyone, but it is certainly not difficult. I now use chlorine only, no minerals, no ozone. I shock weekly with MPS because I like how it works. I use the small 24 oz bottles of regular Clorox which are easy to handle and are as small as my dichlor container. Every other week I may need to add a tablespoon of dry acid for pH but thats about it. I don't use borates or anything like that and I keep it simple.
[glow]The advantage to bleach[/glow], IMO, is of course no CYA and [glow]the lack of TDS.[/glow] The water does not bog down. It has the fresh fill feel for months. Even though my water was always crystal clear with dichlor, it would slowly go downhill. At my four month water change, there was always that...there's nothing like fresh water...realization. Not so with bleach.
I am not one to recommend bleach to anyone, but you need not fear it either. While it may not be for everyone, it works, works well and is probably as pure a chlorine as is practical to use.
TDS is increased with bleach by quite a bit. It is a salt. If it is more/less than the additives, I don't know, just did not want people to think it did not raise the TDS.
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The TDS added by bleach, chlorinating liquid, and lithium hypochlorite is salt -- sodium chloride. Upon addition, for every 10 ppm FC that is added, it also increases the salt by 8 ppm. Dichlor does not add salt upon addition, but does increase TDS in the form of CYA where for every 10 ppm FC that is added it also increases CYA by 9 ppm. All sources of chlorine also add to chloride (salt) when the chlorine gets consumed/used and that is also at the rate where for every 10 ppm FC you end up with 8 ppm salt.
So the net result is that bleach, chlorinating liquid, and lithium hypochlorite build up TDS in the form of salt twice as fast as Dichlor. However, salt is pretty innocuous and it takes a very large buildup before it becomes a problem. This is not the case for Cyanuric Acid (CYA) where far smaller amounts affect the chlorine effectiveness. Higher salt levels do not affect the chlorine effectiveness.
At 4 ppm FC per day chlorine usage, after 3 months using bleach, chlorinating liquid or lithium hypochlorite, you increase salt by 576 ppm.
If you use Dichlor instead, then you increase salt by 288 ppm and increase CYA by 324 ppm.
Basically, the "bleach increases TDS faster" is a true statement of little importance since you change the water in the spa long before this becomes an issue. In other words, it is what TDS is composed of that matters -- TDS by itself is a non-issue unless it gets extremely high (many thousdands of ppm) such as in saltwater chlorine generator pools where the salt level is around 3000 ppm and the TDS is around 3200 ppm as a result.
Richard
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Its not a huge thing, I was just pointing out that there is not a lack of TDS with bleach. The recommended TDS is not to exceed 1500 ppm higher than what the fresh start water was. The is no minimum or maximum. Excessively high TDS will cause the water to look dull or tired and may have a bad or salty taste, not that you should be drinking your spa water! :-X As TDS increases above 2000 ppm, there is a greater probability of galvanic corrosion when there are dissimilar metals within the system such as if you have a copper heat exchanger and other metals in the plumbing, then galvanic corrosion can occur. (NSPf certified pool operator handbook 2007 edition)
No matter how you look at it, frequent water changes will stop many issues, those who can not due to water constaints need to be careful....
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Basically, the "bleach increases TDS faster" is a true statement of little importance since you change the water in the spa long before this becomes an issue.
Would this statement not apply to dichlor also. Meaning you change the water long before the increase in CYA matters
Just a thought
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Would this statement not apply to dichlor also. Meaning you change the water long before the increase in CYA matters
Just a thought
The difference is that 300 ppm of salt means nothing while 300 ppm of CYA means a lot -- relative to 30 ppm CYA, a CYA of 300 ppm reduces chlorine's active concentration (hypochlorous acid) by a factor of 10. The increase in salt doesn't do anything, until as HHH points out the salt level gets rather high.
As I posted above, at 4 ppm FC per day chlorine usage, after 3 months using bleach, chlorinating liquid or lithium hypochlorite, you increase salt by 576 ppm. If you use Dichlor instead, then you increase salt by 288 ppm and increase CYA by 324 ppm. It would take almost 8 months of not changing the water for the bleach to accumulate 1500 ppm of salt above the initial fill amount. There is no way you could go that long using Dichlor at the 4 ppm FC per day usage.
Am I not being clear about this? With the bleach you are accumulating an extra 288 ppm of salt (above and beyond the 288 ppm salt that Dichlor would add) in 3 months (at the aforementioned chlorine usage) and that is negligible. The 324 ppm of CYA from Dichlor is not negligible and has a significant effect on the active chlorine concentration, even after the first month when the CYA builds up to 108 ppm reducing chlorine's effectiveness by a factor of 3 relative to 30 ppm CYA.
Can someone offer a better way of explaining this since apparently I'm not communicating this very effectively?
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Can someone offer a better way of explaining this since apparently I'm not communicating this very effectively?
How about this (http://www.whatsthebest-hottub.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?num=1240691271/0)? ;)
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How about this (http://www.whatsthebest-hottub.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?num=1240691271/0)? ;)
That explains it but the title!! It's not a secret and it's not dirty!! Dichlor has worker for thousands and thousands of people for many many years.
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I am draning my tub today due to high CYA. I been fighting cloudy water and itch. Had forgot about CYA. When checked it is very high. Been about 3 months since water change which I was due anyhow. I use the tub almost everyday and shock with Dichlor once a week. I am tempted to try the bleach method. Currently I use a pill box for my Dichlor to hold a weeks worth. What would be good for bleach if I decide to use it?
My TA is over 400 from tap and will be trying Nitro's way to lower it. Usually this is a two week battle to get down.
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My TA is also high from the tap - I have a 500 gallon tub. Every time I change my water (twice a year most of the time) I add four ounces of Spa Down, run the spa for several hours, then add four more. That usually brings my TA and pH close enough to go ahead and chlorinate and begin using. I may have to add another ounce later in the week, but no battle, no trouble.
And if you want to use less Dichlor, you could try shocking once per month instead, or if you like to shock every week, shock with a non-chlorine oxidizer product such as MPS, Renew, etc.
You could try a Nature2 cartridge to lower the amount of chlorine you need to add - it works best with a daily dose of MPS.
Lots of options.
8-)
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What would be good for bleach if I decide to use it?
If you do decide to use Dichlor-then-bleach, then the best bleach to use is Clorox Regular unscented since it has the least amount of "excess lye" in it. It says "6% Sodium Hypochlorite" in the ingredients and also says "5.7% Available Chlorine" because it is registered with the EPA as a disinfectant for use in swimming pools.
The method Chas describes for lowering the TA is similar to Nitro's method since it involves acid addition with aeration. 4 ounces (volume) of Spa Down in 500 gallons with an initial TA of 400 ppm would lower the pH from 7.5 to 7.0 and the TA by 35 ppm to 365 ppm. Aeration raises the pH back up. Repeating this again lowers the pH to 6.7 and the TA to 330 ppm.
Given that 4 ounces of dry acid in 500 gallons lowers the TA by 35 ppm, perhaps the initial TA isn't so high (Chas, what is the "high TA" you initially have in your spa?). If the initial pH were 8.0 and TA 200, then the 4 ounces of dry acid in 500 gallons would lower the pH to 6.8 and TA to 165 ppm. Repeating this would get the TA to 130 ppm.
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(Chas, what is the "high TA" you initially have in your spa?).
I haven't tested it in years - typical "do as I say, not as I do" spa dealer... but a quick dip of a test strip in the kitchen sink reveals off the scale on the high side for both pH and TA. The test strips I have top out at 180 for TA. I think the last time I took it into the store and ran it through the chem lab (Pinpoint) it was just over 200, but not over 300.
When we opened our third ( and now only ) store, it was fed by well water. That was amazingly high on both pH and TA - and hardness. I filled our first spa, tossed in a little spa down and went home. We came in the next day and the tub was calcified. It took close to a pound of Spa Down to bring it right, and I shut off the heater and circ pump until it got close! Embarrassing! We finally got all the calcium to go back into solution, took three or four days, then drained and refilled it. This time we hit it with Pool Acid right from the start. Since then we have connected the building to city water, no more problems.
And I don't recommend liquid acid except in emergencies.
8-)
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I am tempted to try the bleach method.
If you do use the Dichlor/Bleach method, lower your TA to 50-60 ppm, and consider adding Borates. That will keep your pH in range. I would add Borates even if I wasn't using bleach. The water feels nice and silky afterward.
My TA is over 400 from tap and will be trying Nitro's way to lower it. Usually this is a two week battle to get down.
I lowered a tub's TA from ~450 to 60 in just a few hours using that method. What's nice is you don't have to guess how much acid to add each aeration cycle. It's easy to calculate it.
Let us know how it works out.
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The difference is that 300 ppm of salt means nothing while 300 ppm of CYA means a lot -- relative to 30 ppm CYA, a CYA of 300 ppm reduces chlorine's active concentration (hypochlorous acid) by a factor of 10. The increase in salt doesn't do anything, until as HHH points out the salt level gets rather high.
As I posted above, at 4 ppm FC per day chlorine usage, after 3 months using bleach, chlorinating liquid or lithium hypochlorite, you increase salt by 576 ppm. If you use Dichlor instead, then you increase salt by 288 ppm and increase CYA by 324 ppm. It would take almost 8 months of not changing the water for the bleach to accumulate 1500 ppm of salt above the initial fill amount. There is no way you could go that long using Dichlor at the 4 ppm FC per day usage.
Am I not being clear about this? With the bleach you are accumulating an extra 288 ppm of salt (above and beyond the 288 ppm salt that Dichlor would add) in 3 months (at the aforementioned chlorine usage) and that is negligible. The 324 ppm of CYA from Dichlor is not negligible and has a significant effect on the active chlorine concentration, even after the first month when the CYA builds up to 108 ppm reducing chlorine's effectiveness by a factor of 3 relative to 30 ppm CYA.
Can someone offer a better way of explaining this since apparently I'm not communicating this very effectively?
There is good TDS (salt) and there is bad TDS (most everything else). CYA is TDS and a chlorine inhibitor so it contributes in two ways to the deterioration of water. Salt at this level has a zero consequence. It is a small fraction of the salt by volume and concentration that is added to water for a Salt Water Generator that is so popular with pools and now starting with spas.
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I haven't tested it in years - typical "do as I say, not as I do" spa dealer... but a quick dip of a test strip in the kitchen sink reveals off the scale on the high side for both pH and TA. The test strips I have top out at 180 for TA. I think the last time I took it into the store and ran it through the chem lab (Pinpoint) it was just over 200, but not over 300.
When we opened our third ( and now only ) store, it was fed by well water. That was amazingly high on both pH and TA - and hardness. I filled our first spa, tossed in a little spa down and went home. We came in the next day and the tub was calcified. It took close to a pound of Spa Down to bring it right, and I shut off the heater and circ pump until it got close! Embarrassing! We finally got all the calcium to go back into solution, took three or four days, then drained and refilled it. This time we hit it with Pool Acid right from the start. Since then we have connected the building to city water, no more problems.
And I don't recommend liquid acid except in emergencies.
8-)
Chas, this issue comes up on the forums on a regular basis. It would be nice to have your fix for a calcified spa. Many people try to scrub the calcium off but doing it chemically seems to be the correct way.