Hot Tub Forum
General => Beating a dead horse => Topic started by: Ronald5599 on April 22, 2006, 02:32:34 pm
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We have ordered a Hot Springs Envoy which should arrive at months end. We had narrowed it down to Hot Springs or Marquis (the Epic). The thing that seemed to do it for us was the 24 hour circulation pump, the five (325 sq.ft.) of filters that can go into the dishwasher, the silver cartridge that goes into one of the filters and the point of not putting in a large amount of chemicals. The Marquis was very nice (I loved the sound system which is too expensive in the Hot Springs unit), but its frog system and two filters without the 24 hour filtration did not seem to produce the same level of cleaning that we hope to see in the Hot Springs. Any input would be greatly appreciated, our tub has still not arrived. - Ron
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Congratulations and welcome to the board! :)
You chose.........wisely.......
(http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b206/EastTexasSpa/b28eba1f.jpg)
Terminator
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I would wet test both models. The Epic and Envoy are both very good spas. Buy the spa that fits you the best. Don't worry about the water sanitizing systems. Both system are very good.
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Glad to see you made it online.
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Glad to see you made it online.
Thanks for your help with that Bill. Glad to see it too Ron. Cheers ;)
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Both work very well.....The wet test is the best way to decide....something to remember when filtering with the circ pump I think the filter is 30sq ft and that is the only one the water is being pulled though until you turn on the jet pumps, If I am wrong I am sure one the Hot Springs guys will correct me. In the end both work very well and you will not be make a bad choice with either one.
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Both work very well.....The wet test is the best way to decide....something to remember when filtering with the circ pump I think the filter is 30sq ft and that is the only one the water is being pulled though until you turn on the jet pumps, If I am wrong I am sure one the Hot Springs guys will correct me. In the end both work very well and you will not be make a bad choice with either one.
Tri-X filter= 65sq ft. ;) Had to Mendo ;D
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No worries is that the standard filter ?
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No worries is that the standard filter ?
It is on the Envoy yes.
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It is on the Envoy yes.
pkud...don't educate the competition! :) ;) :D ;D ::)
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Phil and Bill: If you didn't see in my other post, thanks.
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If you want to take it down to the total gallons per day filtered, Marquis has Hotspring beat using filtration cycles. When Marquis had a circ. pump it was the number one warranteed item. When you watch a Hotspring filter water, watch the surface movement of the water. Usually you only see movement in 1/4 of the tub. When Marquis uses the jet pumps to filter, you will see water movement across the spa, meaning oil, hair, skin, other debris is being pulled out. You also have no bottom filtration in the Hotspring, it only pulls from the top where the filter gate is. You get 4 corner seating in the Epic, where 1 corner of the spa in the Envoy is taken up by the wall filter. Both brands are solid, you'll be happy with either one, but I hope you have wet tested both units.
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One more big thing, warranty. You have 2 more years on plumbing in a Marquis, 2 more years on the Marquis DuraWood cabinet which covers fading and warping. Hotspring specifically covers only the cabinet's structural integrity. All the small stuff is at least 3 years on the Marquis such as an ozonator, usually only 1 year on a Hotspring. To top it off, Marquis has a transferrable warranty that can help when selling your house or the spa. Also, check out the Hotspring warranty on their pillows :)
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MarKee is pretty much trying to escape the fact that Hot Spring is the only company with 100% NO BYPASS filtration. The argument that there is no bottom filtration does not work in swimming pools with no bottom drain and it does not work here. All the water will be filtered and clean. I am not going to say you won't get clean water with a Marquis, but sorry, MarKee, your argument is lame. You can't have as much pump as any hot tub out there and not at least have all the water circulated in a short amount of time. All the jets insure that water is moving all throughout the tub. Just remember, all the water circulating in a Hot Spring is going through a filter first. When you are in the water, it will remain the cleanest.
If you really want to get too much information, go the section on beating a dead horse. All of this is pretty much covered there ad nauseum.
The Envoy is the number one selling spa for Hot Spring. It got there because it is a great spa. No matter where you get into the spa, you will enjoy it.
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If a little circ pump is moving 5 gallons a minute with 100% filtration, and a jet pump is moving 20 gallons a minute with only 25% filtration, which is filtering more water?
Come on guys, all the water coming out is simply diluting the main body of dirty water in the spa. They all work! If one was really that much better wouldn't everyone be doing it the same?
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I hate to tell you Ronald, but you got suckered into the usual HS filtration speach. Ok well that's a stretch but I have the Epic and I can tell you that the filtration is just as good. My water stays crystal clear. The lie about little or no chems is just that. If you have other people over in the tub, you will want to make sure that the sanitizer levels are up a bit. The silver cartridge and the frog cartridge are very slow killing minerals. Ozone is a fast kill, but thats just for the small part of the water flowing through the tube, for the most part and it doesn't run when you are in the tub. The marquis's filtration is excellent. My tub can sit for five days easy without dichlor (no bromine) on two hours per day filtration and a mineral cartridge and the water will still look crystal clear.
The bottom line here is that both tubs a great tubs. The 24 hour pumps are great but some say that they don't last. I made my decision based on the following in this order
1) Quality and service - I started by narrowing down to the top mfg's based on info from this forum. Not everything was available locally, but we did bet to try out seven quality brands (of about 15 locally available brands)
2) Fit - the Epic was by far the best that we wet tested. Price was better than hot springs. Both have excellent warranties and both look similar in quality.
3) Filtration and chemicals - This was initially my number one concern. I am a bit sensitive to chlorine smell. As I learned more about water sanitation, I realized that no ona has a true chemical free system. I too was concerned about sitting in a chemical soup. Although I keep my dichlor readings way low for personal usage, I do bring it up when anyone else is over.
The bottom line is that your priorities are just that, yours. You have chosen a great tub and I don't personally care what anybody else here owns, just make sure that you are getting the one that you truely like the best.
Good luck and happy tubbing
Steve
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I hate to tell you Ronald, but you got suckered into the usual HS filtration speach. Ok well that's a stretch but I have the Epic and I can tell you that the filtration is just as good. My water stays crystal clear. The lie about little or no chems is just that. If you have other people over in the tub, you will want to make sure that the sanitizer levels are up a bit. The silver cartridge and the frog cartridge are very slow killing minerals. Ozone is a fast kill, but thats just for the small part of the water flowing through the tube, for the most part and it doesn't run when you are in the tub. The marquis's filtration is excellent. My tub can sit for five days easy without dichlor (no bromine) on two hours per day filtration and a mineral cartridge and the water will still look crystal clear.
The bottom line here is that both tubs a great tubs. The 24 hour pumps are great but some say that they don't last. I made my decision based on the following in this order
1) Quality and service - I started by narrowing down to the top mfg's based on info from this forum. Not everything was available locally, but we did bet to try out seven quality brands (of about 15 locally available brands)
2) Fit - the Epic was by far the best that we wet tested. Price was better than hot springs. Both have excellent warranties and both look similar in quality.
3) Filtration and chemicals - This was initially my number one concern. I am a bit sensitive to chlorine smell. As I learned more about water sanitation, I realized that no ona has a true chemical free system. I too was concerned about sitting in a chemical soup. Although I keep my dichlor readings way low for personal usage, I do bring it up when anyone else is over.
The bottom line is that your priorities are just that, yours. You have chosen a great tub and I don't personally care what anybody else here owns, just make sure that you are getting the one that you truely like the best.
Good luck and happy tubbing
Steve
10 people, 10 different opinions. The Envoy was by far the best we wet tested between Marquis, Sundance etc... 8)
I can leave my spa 23 days, 6 hours and 17 minutes with just ozone and silver ion cart and the water will be crystal clear. ::)
He got suckered in to the HS filtration?? So anyone who explains the difference between brand X,Y,Z and how they operate are now suckering the customer! Poor statement choice Cola. :P
Ron, enjoy your Envoy. And be careful stepping into that lounger. ;D ;D ;D
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Both are nice spas, both will keep your water clean. and both have people who think one is better than the other. I think its the Marquis of course but I respect that the Envoy is also a nice spa and I am sure you will be happy with either.
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If a little circ pump is moving 5 gallons a minute with 100% filtration, and a jet pump is moving 20 gallons a minute with only 25% filtration, which is filtering more water?
Come on guys, all the water coming out is simply diluting the main body of dirty water in the spa. They all work! If one was really that much better wouldn't everyone be doing it the same?
Amen
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I remember a chemical seminar one time that taught that good water quality was like a 3 legged table. Filtration, Circualtion, & Chemicals; without one, the table will fall over. The filter story is just that. It's a story to talk about to the customer. The reality is that they will all do perfectly OK as long as the other 2 "legs" are still there.
I have had Hot Spring display spas in the past turn nasty because the chemicals weren't maintained, at the same time as the brand with "by-pass" filtration stayed clear.
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So little water is actually pulled though the by- pass...just watch the top and see how much water is pulled into the filters, also with the Marquis they plumb the by-pass to the filters....but as it has been said both work.....and as saledvel mentioned keep your water sanitized, rinse your filters and most any spa will keep the water clean.....
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Hey Pkud
Maybe you should learn how to read
I said "Maybe that's a stretch"
I personally don't give a crap what anyone here own's
Ronald quoted what his sales rep's line was.
I gave him some additional info.
I personally didn't like the HS tubs but who cares.
HS makes a great tub, so does Marquis.
HS has "no bypass filtration", Marquis filters it all too.
They have many differences but their is now way in hell that I would run either without any chems especially during moderate usage periods.
I don't think that Ronald is a sucker by any means.
He bought a great tub by a great mfg.
If he thinks that he will get away with ozone, silver ions and dishwasher friendly filters, then he will be sadly mistaken. If he liked the marquis fit better but bought the HS for filter reasons, that's a sucker line in my book.
By the way, I went 5 months through the winter with two hours filtering & ozone per day and 2 X 5 ml of dichlor weekly. Shocked every three weeks. Never a chlorine smell when I got in.
Steve
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One thing which can't really be disputed: any tub which has no bypass arrangement can filter in ten minutes what a tub with bypass can take up to two hours to do.
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One thing which can't really be disputed: any tub which has no bypass arrangement can filter in ten minutes what a tub with bypass can take up to two hours to do.
and your point is........on top of your head. ;D
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Does Chas really have a pointy head? ;D :-/ ;D
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Chas does not.
;)
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Hey Pkud
Maybe you should learn how to read
I said "Maybe that's a stretch"
I personally don't give a crap what anyone here own's
Ronald quoted what his sales rep's line was.
I gave him some additional info.
I personally didn't like the HS tubs but who cares.
HS makes a great tub, so does Marquis.
HS has "no bypass filtration", Marquis filters it all too.
They have many differences but their is now way in hell that I would run either without any chems especially during moderate usage periods.
I don't think that Ronald is a sucker by any means.
He bought a great tub by a great mfg.
If he thinks that he will get away with ozone, silver ions and dishwasher friendly filters, then he will be sadly mistaken. If he liked the marquis fit better but bought the HS for filter reasons, that's a sucker line in my book.
By the way, I went 5 months through the winter with two hours filtering & ozone per day and 2 X 5 ml of dichor weekly. Shocked every three weeks. Never a chlorine smell when I got in.
Steve
I'm a strong subscriber of (http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h75/shabba34/hooked.gif) So I can read just fine. His(Rons) dealer described using minimal chems, not zero as you falsy described. At no time in Rons original post did he reference getting by with just ozone and silver ions. Who is the one who should learn how to read you MO MO!
Ron just joined this board looking for helpful input regarding his spa. I understand having a bias towards the brand you own or sell, but there should be a sence of kuth(spell) in your approach, in which I think you had none.
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Water Filtration Made Simple by Terminator:
Is it better to filter every drop of water before it enters the pump, heater, plumbing, and re-enters the spa through the jets? Yes No Maybe (Circle One)
If you circle yes, you have a great deal of common sense and logic.
If you circle no, you sell a brand that does not filter all the water before it enters the pump, heater, and plumbing because your spa has by-pass valves which, of course, by-pass the filters.
If you circle maybe, refer to the very simple diagram in the second post of this topic.
See ya'll next week. I'm off to visit the Pool and Spa Show! :)
Terminator
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Water Filtration Made Simple by Terminator:
Is it better to filter every drop of water before it enters the pump, heater, plumbing, and re-enters the spa through the jets? Yes No Maybe (Circle One)
If you circle yes, you have a great deal of common sense and logic.
If you circle no, you sell a brand that does not filter all the water before it enters the pump, heater, and plumbing because your spa has by-pass valves which, of course, by-pass the filters.
If you circle maybe, refer to the very simple diagram in the second post of this topic.
See ya'll next week. I'm off to visit the Pool and Spa Show! :)
Terminator
As it has been beaten to death. It is not a better way, it is just a different way.
I have referred to the swimming pool industry before. Pool filters are actually not even suction side, they are pressure side. Hair, skin, all those things go through the skimmer basket and through the pump, do not get hung up on the impellar, and then get caught in the filter. Clean water is then returned back to the pool. As long as the filters runs and the chemicals are right, the water will be fine. No big secret.
100% no by-pass filtration is just 1 story from 1 spa company that thought of a way to market their filtering system. Kudos to them. But it is cetainly not the only way to do it. Nor is it any more sanitary than any other way.
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We have ordered a Hot Springs Envoy ....The thing that seemed to do it for us was the 24 hour circulation pump, the five (325 sq.ft.) of filters that can go into the dishwasher, the silver cartridge that goes into one of the filters and the point of not putting in a large amount of chemicals. The Marquis was very nice (I loved the sound system which is too expensive in the Hot Springs unit), but its frog system and two filters without the 24 hour filtration did not seem to produce the same level of cleaning that we hope to see in the Hot Springs...........- Ron
The KEY word here is HOPE, you do realize that the circ pump only uses one of those filters and the others are for the "clean up cycles" provided by the other pumps.
You have made a good choice with the Envoy, and you would have made the same good choice with the Marquis, you were just swayed by the hopeful expectation that you have placed in what the "salesman said". Either way, you could not go wrong, HS just had a more convincing salesperson. Now if they could only offer price competitive sound systems. What is it that makes it soo expensive? I just can not see the cost being so high.
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The KEY word here is HOPE, you do realize that the circ pump only uses one of those filters and the others are for the "clean up cycles" provided by the other pumps.
You have made a good choice with the Envoy, and you would have made the same good choice with the Marquis, you were just swayed by the hopeful expectation that you have placed in what the "salesman said". Either way, you could not go wrong, HS just had a more convincing salesperson. Now if they could only offer price competitive sound systems. What is it that makes it soo expensive? I just can not see the cost being so high.
And if he were to have purchased a marquis, he would have been swayed into the theory of the Vortex filtration with the frog system in the HOPE that his water would of been cleaner and clearer.(Fill in 1 of 150 different MFG's ideas of filtration and sanitation.)
FYI: The extra filters in the HS are definitly not just in there for the ten minute clean cycle as you eluded to. 325sq ft of active filtration takes place while you are using the spa, as opposed to 50 to 100 sq ft of active filtration on other tubs. Better or worse is for the customer to decide, I'm just trying to clear up a little mis-information for the customers sake. ;)
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And if he were to have purchased a marquis, he would have been swayed into the theory of the Vortex filtration with the frog system in the HOPE that his water would of been cleaner and clearer.(Fill in 1 of 150 different MFG's ideas of filtration and sanitation.)
FYI: The extra filters in the HS are definitly not just in there for the ten minute clean cycle as you eluded to. 325sq ft of active filtration takes place while you are using the spa, as opposed to 50 to 100 sq ft of active filtration on other tubs. Better or worse is for the customer to decide, I'm just trying to clear up a little mis-information for the customers sake. ;)
CHILL, do not take this personal, we all understand the other 4 filters are connected to the 2 high head pumps that happen to run the clean up cycle. What makes you think anyone would over look the fact that ANY time the pumps are on, they are sucking water through the filters. You seem be be a little touchy. I am not familiar with the "vortex" concept that you mentioned, could you expand upon it?
FYI, I am certain the "customer" is fully aware the pumps are attached to the other 4 filters.
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Is it really worth the added cost of all those filters AND all the additional time required to clean them?
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CHILL, do not take this personal, we all understand the other 4 filters are connected to the 2 high head pumps that happen to run the clean up cycle. What makes you think anyone would over look the fact that ANY time the pumps are on, they are sucking water through the filters. You seem be be a little touchy. I am not familiar with the "vortex" concept that you mentioned, could you expand upon it?
FYI, I am certain the "customer" is fully aware the pumps are attached to the other 4 filters.
I'm not touchy, just clearing up the misleading comment you had made.
"The circ pump only uses one of those filters and the others are used for the clean up cycles on the other pumps." That is mis leading.
You are welcome to the marquis website for more info on there filtering... ;)
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Is it really worth the added cost of all those filters AND all the additional time required to clean them?
10+ years of life expectancy(which we can not attest to yet seeing they have only been on the market for a few years), and cleaned in the [glb]dishwasher[/glb]. Pretty simple... ;)
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PKUD- I pmed you :D
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PKUD- I pmed you :D
got it.
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10+ years of life expectancy and cleaned in the [glb]dishwasher[/glb]. Pretty simple... ;)
For the record, 10 years of life "expectancy" is more marketing at this point. Having only been on the market for 2 -3 years, theres isnt any proof that the tri-x will last that long yet. Maybe they will, but at this point it is just marketing. and thats OK.
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For the record, 10 years of life "expectancy" is more marketing at this point. Having only been on the market for 2 -3 years, theres isnt any proof that the tri-x will last that long yet. Maybe they will, but at this point it is just marketing. and thats OK.
I fixed my post for you salesdvl. ;)
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I bet they have done some reliability analysis and are pretty sure of the 10 year life.
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I hate to bring this up since it will probably go to the Dead Horse section anyway. Why is HS the only manufacturer to use No-Bypass? I'm not saying it's better or worse. Does HS hold Intellectual Property on this design? I would think at least one other company would grab on to it if it had merit. ???
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I fixed my post for you salesdvl. ;)
;) ;D
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I bet they have done some reliability analysis and are pretty sure of the 10 year life.
I'm sure they did, but there is only so much you can do to "accellerate" testing.
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Vortex filtration: Pulling water from 360 degrees around the filter, allowing the filter to be more effective. If you look at a Marquis filter the whole thing will be dirty, not just a 5" segment common to spas that use wall filtration. The vortex skimmers allow all Marquis Spas to have 4 corner seating as well.
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Not part of my original point but the vortex draw from the surface, not just one or two inches below. I have never yet had a scum line on my tub - at all.
Steve
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Is Coast the only spa that has a filter that can be removed without dumping the filtered stuff back into the tub? That was one thing that stayed with me from a demo at the fair. I think about it every time I take my filter out of the filter well and grass and other stuff falls off the filter when I take it out.
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Is it really worth the added cost of all those filters AND all the additional time required to clean them?
And add to Doc's statement these thoughts re: 100% no-bypass filtration: Hot Springs has hit their design limit re: number of therapy pumps--2--without adding yet more filters (at least 2/pump). I don't see anyone getting excited about dealing with 7 or more filters. Hot Springs owners will counter that 2 therapy motors are all that are needed....and I'm happy that they are satisfied....but there are many of us non-HS owners who enjoy the added power and flexibility/adjustability that 3 or more therapy pumps provide.
And one more thought.....if Watkins is so high on 100% no-bypass filtration, why are not all of their tubs designed so?......hmmmm.....
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I hate to bring this up since it will probably go to the Dead Horse section anyway. Why is HS the only manufacturer to use No-Bypass? I'm not saying it's better or worse. Does HS hold Intellectual Property on this design? I would think at least one other company would grab on to it if it had merit. ???
This would be my point of view and is not intended to mislead anyone about how Hot tubs work.
You take you weakness and you make it your strength. Years ago, HS sell would always be the last to leave the show and they would leave their spa on full tilt because the circ pump would not keep up with the needed filtration.
We were strong advocates of Ozone back in the mid 80's, and I had several customer neighbors call us out to look at their green water spas because they wanted to apply ozone. We couldn't recommend it because of the injection rate and filtration rate.
One of the biggest claims of competition with HS was all of the filters you had to clean. Needless to say it was a turnoff. Make you weakness your strength, let's call it "no-bypass" filtration, becouse "bypass" was a common term used in the "80's regarding filtration.
This gives credibility to all the filters, and the NEW "tri-x" filters are being promoted to be sooo easy to clean in the diswasher. Some people are opposed to this concept.
ALL SPAS FILTER WATER AND DO IT EFFECTIVELY AND EFFICIENTLY INCLUDING HS AND EVERY OTHER MANUFACTURER MENTIONED HERE. To say their filtration is in any way superior is to do exactly what Pkud is worried about, misleading the unknowing consumer.
Well "100% no-bypass" is NOT misleading, but they seem to imply no other spa is worthy of consideration because it does not even begin to compare to their 100% blah, blah.
Is there ANYONE on this form that has a spa with POOR filtration. Please speak up.
Another reason for so many filters is that every pump must have 2 suction fittings to prevent the potential of suction entrapment. HS simply puts filters on both suction fittings for their big pumps.
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And one more thought.....if Watkins is so high on 100% no-bypass filtration, why are not all of their tubs designed so?......hmmmm.....
I know this one. I remember a conversation I had while having dinner w/ the Pres of Watkins many years ago. We were discussing various spa models and he was asked why they didnt put a moto-massage on the Prodigy. His response was to give seperation and reasons to upgrade. He said that he didnt want people to buy the Prodigy, he wanted them to upgrade to the Sovereign. therefore, the reason they do not put the same filter plumbing in the Tiger River, Caldera, etc.. is to be able to charge the premium price for this "premium feature". In fact, years ago they printed up a sheet that could be handed out that listed the "Premium Features" that were on a Hot Spring that could not be found on any other spa.
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And add to Doc's statement these thoughts re: 100% no-bypass filtration: Hot Springs has hit their design limit re: number of therapy pumps--2--without adding yet more filters (at least 2/pump). I don't see anyone getting excited about dealing with 7 or more filters. Hot Springs owners will counter that 2 therapy motors are all that are needed....and I'm happy that they are satisfied....but there are many of us non-HS owners who enjoy the added power and flexibility/adjustability that 3 or more therapy pumps provide.
More mis-information. 325 sq ft filtering 180-200gpm pumps. Seems to me they have plenty of available sq ft of filtration to do what ever they want while still maintaining no bypass filtration. ;)
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I hate to bring this up since it will probably go to the Dead Horse section anyway. Why is HS the only manufacturer to use No-Bypass? I'm not saying it's better or worse. Does HS hold Intellectual Property on this design? I would think at least one other company would grab on to it if it had merit. ???
Every swimming pool has it. They, like HS figure that if you are going to be moving a lot of water then you might as well filter a lot of water.
I think many of the competitors would gladly jump onto no bypass if it weren't for the fact that HS gave it a name and sells the daylights out of it. So now, it would look like they are agreeing with HS and saying that bypassing the filter doesn't make sense.
Also - somebody suggested that it is not easy to accellerate the life-expectancy tests on a filter. I heard a rumor - just a rumor folks - that HS wore out a dishwasher in the testing lab trying to establish how many times a Tri-X could be cleaned before it began to show signs of wear. Doesn't sound like it was all that hard to figure that one out.
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It is funny to watch competitors try to reason this one away.
Sundance has it's disposable filters, and they will gladly tell a shopper why that is the best way to do things.
I have HS and Caldera on my floor, and I can attest to the fact that the HS are easier to keep clean. Same with Tiger River. And keep in mind that the Caldera tubs come on twice a day for a purge of the system and filtration. Yet the HS still stay cleaner and will recover from a wet test faster.
Say what you want, I believe that it is the better system. I have to run the Caldera for a couple of hours to equal the filtration that the ten-minute cycle gives on a HS.
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For me, it's not an issue about trying to say that HS is wrong or that their filtering system is not good. The issue, for me, continues to be the insinuations that HS has the only quality filtration. Their 100% No-Bypass filtration is just a feature. Thats it. A feature. Something to talk about during their presentation.
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Personally I think it might be a good thing to filter all the water, if possible, but it is probably not half (or less) as important as to keep your chemistry OK. The stuff that's dangerous for you doesn´t get stuck in the filter after all.
So for me 100% percent filtration was not a critical feature in deciding what tub to choose.
The water in my tub IS clean, so if it makes a turn in the jet pump and out again - so what?
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Also - somebody suggested that it is not easy to accellerate the life-expectancy tests on a filter. I heard a rumor - just a rumor folks - that HS wore out a dishwasher in the testing lab trying to establish how many times a Tri-X could be cleaned before it began to show signs of wear. Doesn't sound like it was all that hard to figure that one out.
I brought up the "accellerated testing". The example I thought of, but wasnt going to go into was the "bromine generator" Watkins swore was going to be the reatest thing ever. I remember they said they had doen all kinds of longevity testing and one of the big Wigs had it at his house for a few months and it was working great. I dont think it ever made it to production because it didnt work. They also did extensive "accellerated" testing on their first attempt at the chrome look jets a couple years ago and had to recall all of the ones that got shipped because they found the finish was pealing off.( and I was told that by the Watkins Rep.) I remember getting my Prodigy, unwrapping it, and being told that Watkins issued a statement not to let any of the chrome jet models go out that there was a problem with the jets. The same day I got the Prodigy, our service tech was out to change the jets back to the plastic kind. So, they may have worn out a dishwasher, and the tri-x may last forever, who knows.
My point was that there is no substitute for time.
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I think many of the competitors would gladly jump onto no bypass if it weren't for the fact that HS gave it a name and sells the daylights out of it. So now, it would look like they are agreeing with HS and saying that bypassing the filter doesn't make sense.
Chas,
I have to disagree with you here. If a maker can make a substantial improvement to their product no matter who it is. At some point they are going to do it. In the end if it means more sales they may even put another twist on it. I know nothing about this but just a feeling I have is that Hot Springs will along with others recently have gone go to a larger circ pump if they have not already. I think they probably will have auto clean up cycles as well now this is purely speculation on my part but lunch is on me if in the next few years they do not or as Caldera does they to will have the larger pumps run sometime during the day.
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More mis-information. 325 sq ft filtering 180-200gpm pumps. Seems to me they have plenty of available sq ft of filtration to do what ever they want while still maintaining no bypass filtration. ;)
Now I find your statement misleading, with 2 pumps pushing 180 to 200 gpm, that's let's say 400 gpm and with 47 jets (the most you can get w/HS) that is less than 10 gpm per jet. That is kind of whimpy and the reason why other manufacturers have gone to 3-4 & 5 pumps to have "meaningful" performance output from each jet.
The best example for the shopper here is to see 100% of all the jet's turned on (sometimes you can NOT do that) to see how much force is coming out of the jets. But then of course, IF you power up just one seat, now that is performance, but to power up all the seats with your friends, sometimes you just can not do that.
This again is why this is a very competitive industry. One manufacturer does not have the answer to everybody's want's or desires. So many people get sooo confused while shopping they fall back into the safety net and simply buy a HS because they feel they are #1 because they are a good choice.
AND THEY ARE. But, that leaves a lot of other very good and even better choices for shoppers to consider. It is the FEAR factor of making the wrong decision. Most every shopper here did a lot of research before making that decision and I see a lot of different brands represented here, NOT jus HS and they LOVE they Hot Water Choice.
All this bragging about #1 is MARKETING, they even admit it is not an audited number. 100% blah, blah, is MARKETING. Cleaning filters in the diswasher is MARKETING. Who is misleading who. ???
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I have HS and Caldera on my floor, and I can attest to the fact that the HS are easier to keep clean. Same with Tiger River.
And I can attest to the opposite. I had Hot Spring displays that were alot more difficult to keep clear than my other displays. Interestingly, I remember the MasterSpa displays were generally very crisp with very little effort. We used to comment about how the HS were supposed to be better filtration yet didnt clear up as easily.
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Now I find your statement misleading, with 2 pumps pushing 180 to 200 gpm, that's let's say 400 gpm and with 47 jets (the most you can get w/HS) that is less than 10 gpm per jet. That is kind of whimpy and the reason why other manufacturers have gone to 3-4 & 5 pumps to have "meaningful" performance output from each jet.
The best example for the shopper here is to see 100% of all the jet's turned on (sometimes you can NOT do that) to see how much force is coming out of the jets. But then of course, IF you power up just one seat, now that is performance, but to power up all the seats with your friends, sometimes you just can not do that.
This again is why this is a very competitive industry. One manufacturer does not have the answer to everybody's want's or desires. So many people get sooo confused while shopping they fall back into the safety net and simply buy a HS because they feel they are #1 because they are a good choice.
AND THEY ARE. But, that leaves a lot of other very good and even better choices for shoppers to consider. It is the FEAR factor of making the wrong decision. Most every shopper here did a lot of research before making that decision and I see a lot of different brands represented here, NOT jus HS and they LOVE they Hot Water Choice.
All this bragging about #1 is MARKETING, they even admit it is not an audited number. 100% blah, blah, is MARKETING. Cleaning filters in the diswasher is MARKETING. Who is misleading who. ???
As I am sure you know, typically the 47 jets are not on all of the same time. Since most of the time the diverter valves (pretty much an industry standard feature) are set to one side or the other, using your numbers, we now have 20 gpm.
You probably know on a Hot Spring, you do not power up just one seat. Depending on the spa, you power up half or a quarter of the spa.
I am a dealer. I am the one who "admitted" the numbers of our industry are not audited. From my discussions with upper management (the mother ship), Watkins would be the first to agree to independent auditing of spas manufactured.
Cleaning the Tri X filters in the dishwasher is simply a feature. If features are marketing, so be it.
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What's a diverter valve?
My Coleman has no such thing.
All six seats get therapy unless I close individual jet nozzles.
Let me ask you all this:
Does you spa have a cloth like round thin filter pad that sits on top of your skimmer?
Coleman has been doing this for some time now but I never hear about anybody else doing it.
It is a front line defense from any debris getting into the pipes. Just take it off once a week and hose it off. Amazing how much crap accumulates there.
Also, didn't realize how much hair I'm losing, arghhh!
As a result, my single filter takes quite a long time to get dirty and require a rinse and clean.
2 year old spa, still on same original filter.
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Also, didn't realize how much hair I'm losing, arghhh!
As a result, my single filter takes quite a long time to get dirty and require a rinse and clean.
Talk to Terminator, he's found a solution to that problem.
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Let me ask you all this:
Does you spa have a cloth like round thin filter pad that sits on top of your skimmer?
Coleman has been doing this for some time now but I never hear about anybody else doing it.
It is a front line defense from any debris getting into the pipes. Just take it off once a week and hose it off. Amazing how much crap accumulates there.
Also, didn't realize how much hair I'm losing, arghhh!
As a result, my single filter takes quite a long time to get dirty and require a rinse and clean.
2 year old spa, still on same original filter.
So you have two filters.
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Let me ask you all this:
Does you spa have a cloth like round thin filter pad that sits on top of your skimmer?
Coleman has been doing this for some time now but I never hear about anybody else doing it.
It is a front line defense from any debris getting into the pipes. Just take it off once a week and hose it off. Amazing how much crap accumulates there.
I think Jacuzzi spas have a screen netting to collect debris.
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More mis-information. 325 sq ft filtering 180-200gpm pumps. Seems to me they have plenty of available sq ft of filtration to do what ever they want while still maintaining no bypass filtration. ;)
Sorry, pkud, you missed my point entirely. I was not asserting that HS tubs didn't have enough filtration for 2 therapy motors....certainly they do. But, should HS decide to add a model with 3 therapy pumps, they could not do so without adding 2 more filters.....period. Could they sell a 7 filter tub? I doubt it. Do they even care to produce a tub with more than 2 therapy pumps? I doubt it. But, once again, those of us who have tubs with 3 or more therapy pumps appreciate the adjustability and therapy provided. IMO, HS tubs are limited with their 2 therapy pump system and adding another pump adds 2 more filters. No misinformation here.
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I know this one. I remember a conversation I had while having dinner w/ the Pres of Watkins many years ago. We were discussing various spa models and he was asked why they didnt put a moto-massage on the Prodigy. His response was to give seperation and reasons to upgrade. He said that he didnt want people to buy the Prodigy, he wanted them to upgrade to the Sovereign. therefore, the reason they do not put the same filter plumbing in the Tiger River, Caldera, etc.. is to be able to charge the premium price for this "premium feature". In fact, years ago they printed up a sheet that could be handed out that listed the "Premium Features" that were on a Hot Spring that could not be found on any other spa.
So this means that the manufacturer of HS spas sees no-bypass filtration as an extra....something that is not really necessary for a sanitary tub but is a value added extra that somehow provides something more than other tubs....whatever that may be. Smart marketing to have a feature that no one else has but, in reality, nothing but marketing.
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As I am sure you know, typically the 47 jets are not on all of the same time. Since most of the time the diverter valves (pretty much an industry standard feature) are set to one side or the other, using your numbers, we now have 20 gpm.
You probably know on a Hot Spring, you do not power up just one seat. Depending on the spa, you power up half or a quarter of the spa.
I am a dealer. I am the one who "admitted" the numbers of our industry are not audited. From my discussions with upper management (the mother ship), Watkins would be the first to agree to independent auditing of spas manufactured.
Cleaning the Tri X filters in the dishwasher is simply a feature. If features are marketing, so be it.
So you do agree that you get great performance out of 1 seat, or ¼ of the spa, or ½ of the spa, but not 100% of the spa. And, this may be great for some of the people 50% to 80% of the time, but if they get more than 2 people in the Hot Tub, somebody is going to be disappointed about the performance coming out of the jet.
I think it is a criteria for all of us to sell our product line, but to say one is BETTER than another is MISLEADING to some depending on what they are looking for.
The most over used word and one that raises the hair on the back of my neck is the word "BEST". It seems to be an over used claim that everybody seems to make. Everybody has the "BEST" it seems, or at least that is what shoppers tell me.
HS is not the best for all, it is a good choice, but not always the best. This seems to be an industry that we can count 140+ competitors making product with predominantly 10 to 15 being discussed on this forum by some very honest professionals. Some just seem to be overwhelmingly filled with the pompous thought they are better than all others because after all, they have more dealer outlets that do more numbers in volumn, not necessarily because they are the best choice.
All products are SOLD. HS sells more because there are more sellers selling them. :)
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I think many of the competitors would gladly jump onto no bypass if it weren't for the fact that HS gave it a name and sells the daylights out of it. So now, it would look like they are agreeing with HS and saying that bypassing the filter doesn't make sense.
Or, looking at it from the other side, maybe the majority rules here....nobody else does it because they all see it as being fluff and marketing.
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So this means that the manufacturer of HS spas sees no-bypass filtration as an extra....something that is not really necessary for a sanitary tub but is a value added extra that somehow provides something more than other tubs....whatever that may be. Smart marketing to have a feature that no one else has but, in reality, nothing but marketing.
Nice summation.
Years ago they used to have this pitch for customers that couldnt decide between the Sovereign and the Tiger River Bengal. I think they might have even had a worksheet printed. They would have us dealers assign a value to a feature that was on HS and see if they would "add" it to the TR if they could. For example, would you pay $300 extra to have the moto-massage added to the Bengal. Would you pay $500 extra to have the no by-pass filtration added to the Bengal. etc.... Based on whether they would pay for those features was supposed to help determine whether they whould spend the extra $1000 for the Sovereign or get the Bengal.
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I know this one. I remember a conversation I had while having dinner w/ the Pres of Watkins many years ago. We were discussing various spa models and he was asked why they didnt put a moto-massage on the Prodigy. His response was to give seperation and reasons to upgrade. He said that he didnt want people to buy the Prodigy, he wanted them to upgrade to the Sovereign. therefore, the reason they do not put the same filter plumbing in the Tiger River, Caldera, etc.. is to be able to charge the premium price for this "premium feature". In fact, years ago they printed up a sheet that could be handed out that listed the "Premium Features" that were on a Hot Spring that could not be found on any other spa.
Wow,
I had that same conversation with Steve years ago almost word for word!! Now I don't feel special anymore...
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Wow,
I had that same conversation with Steve years ago almost word for word!! Now I don't feel special anymore...
My dad went on vacation a few years ago in South America, and bumped into this guy while on a bus.
Yup. Same exact conversation. word for word. funny thing is, my dad doesn't care about hut tubs. This guys just starts talking to him. "Hi, my name is steve...you know many people ask me about the Sovereign ...."
Talk about creepy.
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Wow,
I had that same conversation with Steve years ago almost word for word!! Now I don't feel special anymore...
It was at dinner when I was graduating from their Top Gun sales training. Nice guy.
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Every swimming pool has it. They, like HS figure that if you are going to be moving a lot of water then you might as well filter a lot of water.
HS big claim is that it's important to filter the water BEFORE it enters the pump, right? NO pools do this, so is that just hype on HS part or did you pick the wrong random anaolgy?
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I hate to bring this up since it will probably go to the Dead Horse section anyway.
Only if the arguements favor HS. Otherwise the topic will get locked and buried under future posts per orders from the "mothership" ;)
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Just to be clear, I personally never claim to have the "best" of anything.(Read previous posts) It is however my job as well as it is every other spa proffessionals on this site, to clear up any mis-representations, answer any questions to the best of our knowledge, and do so in a proffessional mannor. All this "he said he has this feature and we don't, that's not fair BS is over the top ridiculous". :'(
Everybody markets their specialty items heavily.
Everybody markets themselves heavily.
Everybody knows everything.
As JcMD said "HS sells more because they have more people selling the product"
Saying a certain MFG doesn't want to sell more or have more dealers is a joke. Every MFG wants to increase sales while still maintaining the integrity of the product.
By the way, I have "THE BEST" animals. They're all "SUPER HIGH END" ;D
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All pools DO have 100% no-bypass. They just place the filter after the pump.
As to why other mfgs don't do it - who knows what all the reasons are. I do know that this industry has some of the biggest egos I've ever seen.
Used to be a philosophy in the car industry that I see here as well. It was called the NIH philosophy. Or, Not Invented Here. If it was invented by a different manufacturer, others would not use it no matter how good it was.
With big egos and NIH philosophy, I'm not surprised that other manufacturers don't use no-bypass.
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Aqua, You missed my point. I know they all no-bypass but NONE filter the water BEFORE it enters the pump which HS claims saves wear and tear on the pumps(see Term's diagram). Pools have unfiltered water running through the pump and the pumps last for years and years and years........
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All pools DO have 100% no-bypass. They just place the filter after the pump.
I'm looking at a pentair filter right now. What is that clear tube that sticks out of the top that is meant to reduce pressure when the filter gets dirty....OH YEA! thats a bypass. and Sta-rite and Hayward have them too. ;D
Now why would all the pool filter manufactures pay more to put in a by pass when It would be cheaper to just leave it out?
Could it be that the bypass eliminates presure so as not to "crush" the filter grids.
So mayby H.S. is on to something afterall. "No By-pass = shorter filter life = millions of dollars in replacement filters...wow
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HS big claim is that it's important to filter the water BEFORE it enters the pump, right? NO pools do this, so is that just hype on HS part or did you pick the wrong random anaolgy?
Right analogy, wrong audience.
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Aqua, You missed my point. I know they all no-bypass but NONE filter the water BEFORE it enters the pump which HS claims saves wear and tear on the pumps(see Term's diagram). Pools have unfiltered water running through the pump and the pumps last for years and years and years........
lol...now slow down I am not so sure thats the diagram you want to explain the H. S. no by-pass system any more that you want to show how a bottle of shinnerrock is being poured into your spa as a sanitizer...... ;).( I am sure someone who can post a pic can show that one.... :)
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Lots of really good point on this thread. Would anyone disagree that you should not buy a spa for it's filtration? Assuming (and again you can disagree) that many companies have owners of clean, sparkling spas, they all accomplish their goal. Even if no-bypass IS better, which seems debateable, would anybody say "well, I really liked wet testing the SD1 Arctesian, it had nice powerful, well placed jets, the lounger fit me really well, had comfy seats and the dealer seemed like a knowledgeable guy, but that HS filtration- cant do with out that!!!" Now, if the HS happens to also be the nicest to your back and butt, then buy it, and you too can rave on about no-bypass filtration and how irreplaceable it is! ;)
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Anne,
That pretty much sums it up....Most of todays spas will keep your water clean and YES there are advantages to each way... but at the end of the day with prober sanitizers you will have clean water....How it fits your body is what matters most in the end and I would also say that things like waterfalls, lights while looking good after a while when sitting your spa in your backyard your eyes closed they also do not matter much.
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Clean water is clean water... I believe my Artesian has "no bypass" during it's "filteration" too. I think the circ pump is plumbed directly to the filter ... among the better manufacturer's - they all provide good filteration.
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Lots of really good point on this thread. Would anyone disagree that you should not buy a spa for it's filtration?
Now, if the HS happens to also be the nicest to your back and butt, then buy it, and you too can rave on about no-bypass filtration and how irreplaceable it is! ;)
I would not buy a spa based on the filtration. I would also not a buy a spa because it was the nicest on my back and butt. The reality is we all have a list of our wants, needs and desires. The all vary. Whey also can be changed based on what the sales people tell us is best on their product which obviously influences people's thinking.
People buy based on a whole host of things like manfacturer rep, dealer rep, how they like the salesperson, how the spa looks, how the spa feels, what kind of deal they think they're getting, what they think of the quality, friends recommendations as well as based on features that they like in that spa such as waterfall, filters, horsepower, stereo, etc.
I don't think anyone should buy a spa based on any ONE of those things but rather the spa that has the most things in place they way they want them. Not everyone has the same list of wants/desires.
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... but at the end of the day with prober sanitizers you will have clean water
Mendo, Is "Prober Sanitizers" a new brand of chemicals you are pitching? ;D ;D ;)
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man it was a long weekend.....and much to early of a day....its good to be busy but so is sleeping..... ;)
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First of all, I really want to thank everyone who took the time to answer my post. This has been an incredible ride. I have learned a lot. I just hope I made the right decision. As I said in the beginning, I really liked the "feel" sitting in the Epic better than the Envoy and I really liked the sound system. So maybe I was wrong in selecting the Envoy, only time will tell. Other than the "filtration" that I thought may be better, the fact that the HS dealer in my area has three stores (one just a few miles away which just opended) made the decision easier. So the tub is comming at the end of the month, the slab is down (extra contrete on the left for the steps) and we are ready to rock. You know, as long as the family enjoys it, I am sure any of these tubs would be just fine. But again, thanks to all. PS: They only have my credit card deposit, do you think I can still change!!?? ;) - Ron
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If you like the feel of the Epic better, why not go for it? Getting your deposit back shouldn't be a problem.
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Hey Ronald
The only thing that you need to remember is that you will have this tub for a long time so make sure you know for sure. Get the tub you like the best.
You will be using chems with any tub, both of these tubs will run with minimum chems.
My Epic took two weeks to arrive and I am in Ontario Canada.
Steve
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Cola, that's really fast considering it usually takes at least a week to get a spa on the production schedule and complete. I work at a Marquis factory store where we can pull strings and get spas a little bit faster :).
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First of all, I really want to thank everyone who took the time to answer my post. This has been an incredible ride. I have learned a lot. I just hope I made the right decision. As I said in the beginning, I really liked the "feel" sitting in the Epic better than the Envoy and I really liked the sound system. So maybe I was wrong in selecting the Envoy, only time will tell. Other than the "filtration" that I thought may be better, the fact that the HS dealer in my area has three stores (one just a few miles away which just opended) made the decision easier. So the tub is comming at the end of the month, the slab is down (extra contrete on the left for the steps) and we are ready to rock. You know, as long as the family enjoys it, I am sure any of these tubs would be just fine. But again, thanks to all. PS: They only have my credit card deposit, do you think I can still change!!?? ;) - Ron
Ron,
Those who prefer teh Epic will say go that way while those who prefer teh Envoy will differ obviously. It's not like you're choosing between meatloaf and steak. You'll be happy with either choice. Go with what feels right for you.
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It's not like you're choosing between meatloaf and steak. You'll be happy with either choice. Go with what feels right for you.
Hey, waitaminute.....I REALLY like meatloaf..... 8)
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Ronald, buying a hot tub was one of the hardest purchases that I have ever made. That is why I felt that it was critical that I didn't second guess my decision. You are still in a position to clear up any concerns that you have about your decision. I am not trying to sell you anything but I have an Epic with the soundsations. We also have a speaker system on our decks, around our pool and throughout our home...The sound coming through the shell of that tub is just awsome, it is not distorted, it is clear even over the sound of the jets and we can enjoy it without disrupting any neighbors as it seems to "stay" within the tub. What I am saying is that in spite of the outdoor speakers(which work great for a party or at the pool), we are so happy that we added the soundsations. As for the tub, you have tried it and so you already know how awsome it is. To be honest, you can't even get the full impact of how great this tub is until you get to know it in your back yard. Good luck with your decision but if you are not sure, try them again. You may come to the same conclusion but at least you will feel secure in what you purchased. ;)
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Yes No Maybe
Terminator
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Hey, waitaminute.....I REALLY like meatloaf..... 8)
(http://img250.imageshack.us/img250/4522/batoutofhell4zx.jpg)
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(http://img250.imageshack.us/img250/4522/batoutofhell4zx.jpg)
I said "meatloaf or steak" not "Meatloaf or Stones".
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An added benefit Marquis Filtration has is that while filtering they are flowing 60 to 80 gallons every minute through the filters and the safety suction fittings at the floor. The flow throught the suction fittings at the floor goes through the filters with no bypass before the pump. With 60-80 gpm instead of the 4-8 gpm Marquis flowed when they had the 24 hr circ. pump they are able to skim the surface and remove debris from the footwell area, not just clean the middle of the spa over and over again (where does a spa actually get "dirty" ?- surface and floor). Also, now there are no problems with low gpm killing the heaters and circ pumps like the spas Marquis made 9 or 10 years ago with 24hr circ. pumps. With 20+ years now servicing spas I know how important that is. Homeowner's water maintenance gets blamed for these failures so warranties don't have to cover them.
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An added benefit Marquis Filtration has is that while filtering they are flowing 60 to 80 gallons every minute through the filters and the safety suction fittings at the floor. The flow throught the suction fittings at the floor goes through the filters with no bypass before the pump. With 60-80 gpm instead of the 4-8 gpm Marquis flowed when they had the 24 hr circ. pump they are able to skim the surface and remove debris from the footwell area, not just clean the middle of the spa over and over again (where does a spa actually get "dirty" ?- surface and floor). Also, now there are no problems with low gpm killing the heaters and circ pumps like the spas Marquis made 9 or 10 years ago with 24hr circ. pumps. With 20+ years now servicing spas I know how important that is. Homeowner's water maintenance gets blamed for these failures so warranties don't have to cover them.
I'm sold! Where can I get em, I'll take 3. ;D
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The flow throught the suction fittings at the floor goes through the filters with no bypass before the pump.
I thought the way it worked was that some of the suction fittings are tied directly to teh fitlers and some bypass them. Now I'm confused, maybe Marquis has a unique system that I'm not familiar with.
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Yeah, they do!
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Kudos to Marquis for taking the circ pumps out of their spas.
We all know the only true application a circ pump has, and it ain't in no spa!
;D ;D ;D
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Yeah, way to go Marquis!!! Add extra wear and tear to your more expensive jet pumps and shorten there life!! I like the Marquis Spa, however, they are missing the boat on circulation pumps
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Kudos to Marquis for taking the circ pumps out of their spas.
We all know the only true application a circ pump has, and it ain't in no spa!
;D ;D ;D
I know they allow 24-hr ozone and for all the pluses and minuses related to energy use, noise, filtering, etc. that's the one that sells me. To each his own.
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I'd rather have wear and tear on ONE of my jet pumps than go through MULTIPLE circulation pumps in the life of the spa. Working at a Marquis dealer, I see people with broken circ. pumps all the time. I believe the company that made the Marquis circ. pump (Lang) still makes most of the existing circ. pumps today.
As far as bypass on a Marquis, it is a no bypass system while it filters, but when the jet pumps are on high, there is some bypass through the bottom suction fittings.
The noise arguement really has no credibility when talking about a Marquis. Anyone who has been around a modern Marquis knows that it is very quiet when the jet pumps come on to do a filtration cycle.
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AND I'd rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6....
Terminator
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Nothing unique about a spa that has no bypass while it filters WHEN YOU'RE NOT USING IT. :o ;D
Now one that has no bypass while your in there....well ;D
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As far as the filter bypass goes, Marquis single pump models have zero bypass. Everything goes through the filters - period. On two pump models, the primary pump still has zero bypass. It is still filtering with no by pass when the jets are on high speed. The second pump does by pass the filters. On high speed in a Marquis Spa you still have 120gpm or 160gpm being filtered with absolutely no by pass when the jets are on high speed (120gpm on 120v convertible models and 160gpm on 220v models).
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As far as the filter bypass goes, Marquis single pump models have zero bypass. Everything goes through the filters - period. On two pump models, the primary pump still has zero bypass. It is still filtering with no by pass when the jets are on high speed. The second pump does by pass the filters. On high speed in a Marquis Spa you still have 120gpm or 160gpm being filtered with absolutely no by pass when the jets are on high speed (120gpm on 120v convertible models and 160gpm on 220v models).
OK, that's how I figured. I thought they were doing something different that I was unaware of.
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Hey DPS,
What sq ft are the filters on the spas? 50 a piece?
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50 sq ft or 35 sq ft. Both are available. They now come from the factory with 35 sq. ft.
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So Markee are you saying that my Epic probably has the 35 sq ft filters but when I buy new ones I can go with the 50? With more square feet of filter area does that mean you can go longer between cleaning? Or are the filters rated for the volume in the tubs, or number of pumps or what? :-/
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50 sq ft or 35 sq ft. Both are available. They now come from the factory with 35 sq. ft.
My question is how can the spa filter 160 gpm when there is only 70 sq ft of filtration without a bypassing??
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My question is how can the spa filter 160 gpm when there is only 70 sq ft of filtration without a bypassing??
Just a guess:
The 70 sq ft of filter is the surface area of the filter cartridge. So how much water would need to pass through a square foot of filter membrabne to achieve 160 gpm?
2.3 gallons per minute. Is that not possible? Or did I miss something?
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Just a guess:
The 70 sq ft of filter is the surface area of the filter cartridge. So how much water would need to pass through a square foot of filter membrabne to achieve 160 gpm?
2.3 gallons per minute. Is that not possible? Or did I miss something?
Yes, that is true, but not without minimizing the micron capabilities of the filter and starving the jet pump for water. Water is moving through too fast causing a lot of back pressure. This causes deminished jet pressure and lack of filtration capabilities. Rule of thumb is 1gpm per 1sq ft of filtration. Remember also, that dirty filters further hinder the situation. I realize that the claims of the no bypass during filtering are true, just not at the gpm's that were stated. Commercial or residential pools will allow for up to 3gpm to 1 sq ft of filtraton, however not recommended due to reasons stated above. Most contractors will equally match the filter sq footage to the size of the pump. ;)
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When you pull from 360 degrees around the filter instead of one direction (the direction of the wier gate), it's amazing what you can accomplish!
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What I've never understood (and maybe someone can explain it to me) is why all of these companies that "filter 100% of the water" put by-pass valves in their spas. Don't by-pass valves do exactly that....by-pass the filters?
I'm anxious to hear the answers.
Terminator
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What I've never understood (and maybe someone can explain it to me) is why all of these companies that "filter 100% of the water" put by-pass valves in their spas. Don't by-pass valves do exactly that....by-pass the filters?
I'm anxious to hear the answers.
Terminator
Well that's why they need to change the water over many many times. Eventually you'll get it all. Even with No By pass filtration, not all the water in the tub gets filtered on the first change over. It's "All the water entering the pumps" gets filtered.
no?
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When you pull from 360 degrees around the filter instead of one direction (the direction of the wier gate), it's amazing what you can accomplish!
Sales deception!!!!!
Are you saying that when the pump sucks the water out of the center of the filter, the vacuum created in the center of the filter can determine which side of the round filter the wier gate is on?
B S !!!
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When you pull from 360 degrees around the filter instead of one direction (the direction of the wier gate), it's amazing what you can accomplish!
(http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b206/EastTexasSpa/37ea791b.jpg)
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What I've never understood (and maybe someone can explain it to me) is why all of these companies that "filter 100% of the water" put by-pass valves in their spas. Don't by-pass valves do exactly that....by-pass the filters?
I'm anxious to hear the answers.
Terminator
They filter without a bypass only during filtering cycles with pump on low speed. In essence, when your not using the spa.
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They filter without a bypass only during filtering cycles with pump on low speed. In essence, when your not using the spa.
Oh. I guess using a little bit of common sense would then dictate there is probably a little more hair, dead skin, toenails, dirt, and buttcheese in the spa when there are actually people USING the spa.
That's when I really like to have my water clean. Before and after is nice, too.
Terminator
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Oh. I guess using a little bit of common sense would then dictate there is probably a little more hair, dead skin, toenails, dirt, and buttcheese in the spa when there are actually people USING the spa.
That's when I really like to have my water clean. Before and after is nice, too.
Terminator
Ummm. Buttcheese.
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Nothing like some good butt"cheese" to go with some good butt"crack"ers. :D
Ummm. Buttcheese.
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I got through most of this thread but gave up.
Is this any different than a FF/Thermal pane debate in ANY way? Does one FF tub not call it FF because they may agree that HS has the best concept? Is that why no one else uses no bypass? Come on you guys. We all know better than what has been written for the most part!
Give me any tub in the world and I could create a cesspool or crystal clear water in any of them within 48 hours. Teach your customer proper watercare based on usage and it's basically simple to maintain regardless as long as it has the basic, industry standard filtration.
As stated many times, most of us have proprietary features that we market to the consumer. That's what it is...MARKETING and regardless of how defensive we all are about the product we sell or own, deep down, we all know this.
We have a system that I feel is wonderful with Hydropool and has a definite marketing appeal to it. No different than Beachcomber's Protec design with the pump outside, HS no by-pass or Artcic's Perimeter heatlock. These aren't in place because it's the BEST way to do it...It's in place because nobody else does it and it sets them apart! Again, I'm typing things that most everyone here already knows regardless of what we type.
It comes down to how honest we want to be with ourselves and each other. If anyone truly believes theirs is far superior to anyone else’s system with regards to filtration, then I suggest that you have been misguided and chose to embrace it without applying any logic. Sell the crap out of what you believe in, but keep it real when dealing with other professionals.
Steve
Loosing brownie points 1 at a time! ;)
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Help me understand .... My Marquis tub performs two- two hour filter cycles/24 hours. My understanding is that they are no bypass filter cycles with ozone. doesn't really matter since the filtered water gets dumped back into the rest of the tub only achieving a dilution effect..bypass or not. Additionally, aproximately 30 minutes after using the tub, it will automatically go into a no bypass filter cycle to remove all the goobers that have accumulated during the soak. This really makes excellent sense to me since, as you suggest Term, the greatest source of contamination is the soakers. so I feel that my water is clean when I go in and soon after I get out. I don't really see an advantage to filtering during soaking as you can't remove the contamination without removing the source. Kind of like bailing the boat before you plug up the hole! Am I right or have I misunderstood this whole bypass stuff? I have solved the toenail problem, keep your pH at about 4.... ;D
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Bonibelle, I love you to death and I would not take time out of my busy schedule to explain this to anyone else but you. :)
Other spas (including your fine Marquis) filter the debris before you get in and after you get out. What they do not do is filter the debris while you are in the spa. The debris has an uninterrupted shot straight into your pump, heater, and plumbing and then blows out your jets onto your back and legs. That is, the debris that doesn't end up residing in your spa's internals.
That's it, plain and simple and with love.
Terminator
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OK, now I get it...and I appreciate your explaination but I guess I don't think that is such a big issue. If it was in my fish pond with all the cruddies, I would worry about protecting my pump. I would think spa pumps could handle toenails, skin and hair. Which brings me to my final question....if all this wonderful crud is on those filters, including butt cheese -what ever that is (and I love you too, but please don't explain) why would you put that in your dishwasher? :-/
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Which brings me to my final question....if all this wonderful crud is on those filters, including butt cheese -what ever that is (and I love you too, but please don't explain) why would you put that in your dishwasher? :-/
LMAO ;D
A very good question Bonibelle! Who knows what you might find stuck to a fork.
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Some people have buttcheese on their plates as it is part of their diet. The French, for instance, and certain tribes of pygmies. That's what dishwashers are for (and for cleaning HotSpring Tri-X Filters).
Terminator
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You are incorrect Terminator. In Marquis Spas pump 1 filters with no bypass when the high speed jets are on. So when she (or anyone else) is using her spa either 120gpm (120v models) or 160gpm (240v models) is being filtered. In Marquis' largest spa the turnover through the filters is every 3 minutes with jets on high speed.
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[size=18]What I've never understood (and maybe someone can explain it to me) is why all of these companies that "filter 100% of the water" put by-pass valves in their spas. Don't by-pass valves do exactly that....by-pass the filters?[/size]
I'm anxious to hear the answers.
Terminator
I'm not saying you're wrong, I just want to know what is the point of having by-pass valves in your spa if they are serving no purpose? That's all. :)
In the 6 years I've been selling spas, no one has ever been able to tell me. If someone would be so kind as to provide a diagram, maybe that would help.
Terminator
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Here is a layout of the Marquis filter system from their web site. http://www.marquisspas.com/documents/2006/Constant_Clean.pdf
It shows the main filtration pump. Regarding filter types, if a pleated filter works for car engine that will not withstand contamination, it's probably good for the tub. The "3D" HS Tri-X filter is something like a polyester (foam like) type dust filter. The actual face surface area is under 10 square feet. The fact that particles can be held on the inside of the filter as the water passes through gives for an increase in surface area, from a 3D standpoint. Large particles will stay on the surface and smaller particles will enter cells - still easily washed out - I hope. There is no doubt that HS has a great filter system but it does have its limits - just as everyone else's does.
Regarding wear and tear on the main pump. I work on machinery with pump systems on a daily basis. Pumps that run 24/6 to 24/7. These pumps are no better than the ones in the HS or Marquis tubs. They are pumping contaminated pungent coolants, corrosive oils, etc. and they are single speed - high only. Rarely a leak or failure. As for the control equipment, the relay that pulls in for the low speed is rated for 12.5 times more than the pumps low speed current. Failure rates here would be extremely low - probably a ten year average relay life from my experience. With this in mind, and yes , filtration was a concern for me, I chose the best fit for my family and myself.
Steve
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In Marquis Spas pump 1 filters with no bypass when the high speed jets are on.
What's Pump #2 doing when Pump #1 is running high speed with "no-bypass"? (This is where it always gets interesting and the mystery unfolds....) ;)
Terminator
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Ooh! Ooh! I know I know I know!
;D
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On Marquis Spas with 2 pumps, pump 2 does not circulate water through the filters. The water is being circulated through the filters on pump 1 at a high rate, sending every drop of water in the spa through the filters every 3 minutes with the jets on high speed. So, in your typical 15 minute soak, the entire volume of the spa has been through the filters 5 times. Marquis doesn't have "by pass valves". Whether pump 1 is on high speed for jets or on low speed for heating, filtration cycle, or clean up cycle, ALL of the water goes through the filters.
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I'm just curious to see whos forehead starts bleeding first from banging it against the wall? ::)
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Whether pump 1 is on high speed for jets or on low speed for heating, filtration cycle, or clean up cycle, ALL of the water goes through the filters.
Except, of course, all of the water going through jet pump 2.
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I am curious as to how Pump #1 can be tied into the filters and Pump #2 is evidently not. I am also curious as to why some of the models have 4 by-pass valves in them if they are not really by-pass valves like everyone else uses. :)
Terminator
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Somehow it would be much more impressive coming from the spa fairy's ...mouth ::)
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Somehow it would be much more impressive coming from the spa fairy's ...mouth ::)
My Texas friend simply seeks accountability in the spa industry claims, nothing more. I'm sure we all want honesty and forthrightness to be upheld on this wonderful forum that is a great source of information.
Always be prepared to validate your position and the truth will set you apart from the riff raff.
(http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b206/EastTexasSpa/d3eea495.jpg)
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There is just something about that fairy...I don't know if it's his tights or that wand...but he is just so credible..I'm sure if we could just hear his voice...it would bring fond memories of Mrs. Doubtfire....
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IF Marquis doesn't have a bypass valve on the filters, and IF the bottom suction does indeed send the water through the filter, then it will have joined the ranks of truly world-class spas which filter all the water moved by it's jets.
Of course, only half of a Marquis would be world-class* since only one of the jet pumps filters while the other does not filter AT ALL.
[size=10]*in some parts of the world this would be known as 'half classed." ;) [/size]
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There is just something about that fairy...I don't know if it's his tights or that wand...but he is just so credible..I'm sure if we could just hear his voice...it would bring fond memories of Mrs. Doubtfire....
I didn't know they allowed Fairies in Texas.
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Well, again, thanks a lot for all the comments on this thread. Wow, I am so confused about all of this I guess there all pretty good. I decided to stick with the HS Envoy. We are having it delivered next Friday AM.
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Too bad Bill's not here to read this, or that I'm late in replying but........."There aint nuthin it Texas but steers and queers, and I dont see no horns on you boy!"
I didn't know they allowed Fairies in Texas.
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I didn't know they allowed Fairies in Texas.
Isn't Austin in Texas?
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Isn't Austin in Texas?
Yep, right in the tain't.
Terminator