Hot Tub Forum
Brand Specific Forums => Bullfrog Spas => Topic started by: Compatico on March 01, 2016, 09:14:16 pm
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Hello everyone;
We're shopping around for a new tub and have been researching several brands including Bullfrog. We like the idea of customizing the tub the way we want, the lack of wood in the frame, and the 1-piece base that can be placed on several types of pads (no room to get concrete poured in the back easily). We plan to wet test before buying but it's over an hour drive to a dealer so we haven't tried one yet. We like loungers and the size of the R6L which is the same size as the last tub we had. It's just me and the wife most of the time, so we don't really need a 7 or 8 series.
I just have one question for any owners of the Bullfrog A or R series tubs with just the 1 pump - is it lacking power since the tub only has the 1 pump?
Thanks for any feedback,
Bill
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Any closer dealers? There's plenty of good tubs out there.
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Lots of tubs have bases like that. I sell marquis and we sell the e435 where if you put 1 pump in its lacking but when you add a second pump it rocks. E435 is similar in size and jet count
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I've tried that tub out. Keep in mind, Bullfrog doesn't have any diverter valves, so in order to get to the pressure you want, you will probably have to turn off a jet pak, maybe two depending on how much power you want out of the jets. It's literally the same as diverting the pressure from one side of the spa to the other on any other brand. Having them all one is like having the diverter in the middle position (not as strong as I would like.)
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I've tried that tub out. Keep in mind, Bullfrog doesn't have any diverter valves, so in order to get to the pressure you want, you will probably have to turn off a jet pak, maybe two depending on how much power you want out of the jets. It's literally the same as diverting the pressure from one side of the spa to the other on any other brand. Having them all one is like having the diverter in the middle position (not as strong as I would like.)
Is that tub available with dual pumps?
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Any closer dealers? There's plenty of good tubs out there.
Yes there are several dealers in our area, but many of them do not sell what we want. We have some specific requirements that have narrowed our choices and they are deal-breakers if not included, like a lounger, durable base for easier placement, no circ pump, no ozone, side/footwell lighting only no perimeter lights at the waterline, shell NOT made in China, open footwell, etc. We have looked at all the major brands (Arctic, Beachcomber, Dim One, Hot Spring, Hydropool, Jacuzzi, Marquis, Sundance, etc.) and before making the final purchase, we definitely will be wet-testing the finalists. I don't mind driving to find what I want...just curious if anyone has first hand experience.
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I've tried that tub out. Keep in mind, Bullfrog doesn't have any diverter valves, so in order to get to the pressure you want, you will probably have to turn off a jet pak, maybe two depending on how much power you want out of the jets. It's literally the same as diverting the pressure from one side of the spa to the other on any other brand. Having them all one is like having the diverter in the middle position (not as strong as I would like.)
That's what concerns us with the single pump, not enough pressure. Other than jet pressure, it's at the top of the list right now as we can get it the way we want. Something I've noticed is the next model up R7L has 2 pumps but it also has twice the fixed jets plus another jetpak to power. From simple visual clues, it has nearly twice as many jets to power - max of 136 vs 190 and of them there are more larger fixed jets. I'm hoping they designed the single pump model with that in mind to maintain decent power. But as you say, the jetpaks can be adjusted...so we'll have to wait till we wet-test to be sure.
:)
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I've tried that tub out. Keep in mind, Bullfrog doesn't have any diverter valves, so in order to get to the pressure you want, you will probably have to turn off a jet pak, maybe two depending on how much power you want out of the jets. It's literally the same as diverting the pressure from one side of the spa to the other on any other brand. Having them all one is like having the diverter in the middle position (not as strong as I would like.)
Is that tub available with dual pumps?
No, the specs call for one 4.8 BHP pump and no option for a second. But it has a lot less jets than the next model up with 2 pumps, so it may be sized properly for decent pressure.
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It is not good sir
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Hi! I'm an owner of this very same spa, Bullfrog R6L going on 3 problem-free years now. As for lacking power we don't think so, actually I prefer to use it on low speed vs high as I find it more soothing. Of course there are different jetpaks that have different pressures i.e. gentle rain shower vs the neck blaster. There are valves on some of the jetpaks themselves where you can turn up/down the water pressure.
Probably your best answer is when you go to wet test. Make sure to try out as many jetpaks they have on hand. We have the rain shower, neck blaster, and the oscillator. It's just me and the spouse so there is plenty of room for 2 people.
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Any closer dealers? There's plenty of good tubs out there.
Yes there are several dealers in our area, but many of them do not sell what we want. We have some specific requirements that have narrowed our choices and they are deal-breakers if not included, like a lounger, durable base for easier placement, no circ pump, no ozone, side/footwell lighting only no perimeter lights at the waterline, shell NOT made in China, open footwell, etc. We have looked at all the major brands (Arctic, Beachcomber, Dim One, Hot Spring, Hydropool, Jacuzzi, Marquis, Sundance, etc.) and before making the final purchase, we definitely will be wet-testing the finalists. I don't mind driving to find what I want...just curious if anyone has first hand experience.
I can't recall someone's requirements including "no ozone" and using that to exclude any choices. Its typically either the customer wants it or they don't know anything about it but this sounds like someone has told you that you should avoid it. In the end if for whatever reason you don't want ozone you don't need to exclude all those that have it, all you'd need to do is ask the dealer to unplug it if you were to chose a brand that has it.
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I've tried that tub out. Keep in mind, Bullfrog doesn't have any diverter valves, so in order to get to the pressure you want, you will probably have to turn off a jet pak, maybe two depending on how much power you want out of the jets. It's literally the same as diverting the pressure from one side of the spa to the other on any other brand. Having them all one is like having the diverter in the middle position (not as strong as I would like.)
That's what concerns us with the single pump, not enough pressure. Other than jet pressure, it's at the top of the list right now as we can get it the way we want. Something I've noticed is the next model up R7L has 2 pumps but it also has twice the fixed jets plus another jetpak to power. From simple visual clues, it has nearly twice as many jets to power - max of 136 vs 190 and of them there are more larger fixed jets. I'm hoping they designed the single pump model with that in mind to maintain decent power. But as you say, the jetpaks can be adjusted...so we'll have to wait till we wet-test to be sure.
:)
I just tried out the Bullfrog STIL the other day, which is basically the same type of spa as an A6/R6. Again, I have to turn off at least one Jet Pak to get the pressure I want. I love the Oscillator jet Pak, if I turn off two Jet Paks, that pressure is to much for me. Bullfrog is like an Android phone, you have absolute control on how something feels and how you want to arrange it.
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This tub was high on my list when I was shopping. Same as you, I had concern about the one pump and not enough power. I did wet test it. Yes, it was acceptable when you shut off one or two jet packs but when they were all on I found it much too weak. I ended up with a Hot Springs Aria which I'm very happy with. Although, even with two pumps in my tub, I constantly play with the diverter valve to get max pressure in the seat I want to use. This Bullfrog was still in my top 5 when I finished shopping for my needs but wasn't my favorite.
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This tub was high on my list when I was shopping. Same as you, I had concern about the one pump and not enough power. I did wet test it. Yes, it was acceptable when you shut off one or two jet packs but when they were all on I found it much too weak. I ended up with a Hot Springs Aria which I'm very happy with. Although, even with two pumps in my tub, I constantly play with the diverter valve to get max pressure in the seat I want to use. This Bullfrog was still in my top 5 when I finished shopping for my needs but wasn't my favorite.
So you compared a 1 pump spa to a 2 pump spa and went with the 2 pump becuase it had more pressure? Go figure..
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Why the attitude Jim? It was one of many that I looked at. I also considered the R7L... I was just giving my experience with the exact same concern the op had... geez....
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Any closer dealers? There's plenty of good tubs out there.
Yes there are several dealers in our area, but many of them do not sell what we want. We have some specific requirements that have narrowed our choices and they are deal-breakers if not included, like a lounger, durable base for easier placement, no circ pump, no ozone, side/footwell lighting only no perimeter lights at the waterline, shell NOT made in China, open footwell, etc. We have looked at all the major brands (Arctic, Beachcomber, Dim One, Hot Spring, Hydropool, Jacuzzi, Marquis, Sundance, etc.) and before making the final purchase, we definitely will be wet-testing the finalists. I don't mind driving to find what I want...just curious if anyone has first hand experience.
Lots of choices of lounge tubs, lots of choices with durable or ABS pan base tubs, lots of choices with no circ pump (not sure why this would matter) lots of choices with no ozone (also not sure why this matters) lots of choices with only inside lighting, all of your mentioned brands have a shell not made in china, lots of choices with an open foot well. And those choices will come from just about every one you mentioned. I was just trying to get you closer to home. 100 miles seems a long ways for a tub that's no better.
Is there a dealer filling you with miss information?
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I can't recall someone's requirements including "no ozone" and using that to exclude any choices. Its typically either the customer wants it or they don't know anything about it but this sounds like someone has told you that you should avoid it. In the end if for whatever reason you don't want ozone you don't need to exclude all those that have it, all you'd need to do is ask the dealer to unplug it if you were to chose a brand that has it.
Sorry didn't mean to sound too picky. My wife is sensitive to ozone so we don't want it. That doesn't mean we're excluding models that have it as I know it can simply be disabled - our Arctic Spa had ozone that's how we know about the sensitivity issue and that it can be disabled easily. If we find the right tub and it has ozone, it'll be disabled by the dealer for warranty coverage.
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Hi! I'm an owner of this very same spa, Bullfrog R6L going on 3 problem-free years now. As for lacking power we don't think so, actually I prefer to use it on low speed vs high as I find it more soothing. Of course there are different jetpaks that have different pressures i.e. gentle rain shower vs the neck blaster. There are valves on some of the jetpaks themselves where you can turn up/down the water pressure.
Thanks for the feedback.
Probably your best answer is when you go to wet test. Make sure to try out as many jetpaks they have on hand. We have the rain shower, neck blaster, and the oscillator. It's just me and the spouse so there is plenty of room for 2 people.
Definitely will be wet-testing the finalists. We have a bit of time to look around still as we still need to prep the backyard and right now it's frozen solid thanks to the cold Canadian winter. Really miss having a hot tub in this weather. ;D
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I just tried out the Bullfrog STIL the other day, which is basically the same type of spa as an A6/R6. Again, I have to turn off at least one Jet Pak to get the pressure I want. I love the Oscillator jet Pak, if I turn off two Jet Paks, that pressure is to much for me. Bullfrog is like an Android phone, you have absolute control on how something feels and how you want to arrange it.
We looked at the STIL and thought it might be stylish and contemporary, but we didn't like the layout and crossed it off the list. Lots of others to look at though.
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Lots of choices of lounge tubs, lots of choices with durable or ABS pan base tubs, lots of choices with no circ pump (not sure why this would matter) lots of choices with no ozone (also not sure why this matters) lots of choices with only inside lighting, all of your mentioned brands have a shell not made in china, lots of choices with an open foot well. And those choices will come from just about every one you mentioned. I was just trying to get you closer to home. 100 miles seems a long ways for a tub that's no better.
In my area we don't have a lot of dealers, so I have to travel a bit to two other cities to find more dealers and choices, 30-40 mins. My hunt started with looking at layouts online as we must have a lounger and open footwell, and prefer a single pump model as our last tub the 2nd pump was used about 1% of the time (but not a deal breaker). That narrowed our search a bit...but some brands are simply not within driving distance so they were crossed off the list due to unrealistic distances. So far the farthest dealer is 100 km (about 60 miles) away. We'll be going to see two others this weekend in another city. I don't mind driving around to find the right tub as we'll have it for many years to come.
Is there a dealer filling you with miss information?
Nope, I don't listen to sales hype. ;D
I like to be well informed before walking in the door so I can avoid the sales pitch and focus on getting the answers I'm looking for in person.
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This tub was high on my list when I was shopping. Same as you, I had concern about the one pump and not enough power. I did wet test it. Yes, it was acceptable when you shut off one or two jet packs but when they were all on I found it much too weak. I ended up with a Hot Springs Aria which I'm very happy with. Although, even with two pumps in my tub, I constantly play with the diverter valve to get max pressure in the seat I want to use. This Bullfrog was still in my top 5 when I finished shopping for my needs but wasn't my favorite.
Hear ya there! I love the Bullfrog concept, but I own an HSS Envoy personally. Love it. I had a customer in the other day that was looking at a new X series hot tub from Bullfrog and he actually didn't like the fact that there were no diverters in it! He didn't want to go through and turn each individual jet on or off to get the pressure he wanted. To each his own!...
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I can't recall someone's requirements including "no ozone" and using that to exclude any choices. Its typically either the customer wants it or they don't know anything about it but this sounds like someone has told you that you should avoid it. In the end if for whatever reason you don't want ozone you don't need to exclude all those that have it, all you'd need to do is ask the dealer to unplug it if you were to chose a brand that has it.
Sorry didn't mean to sound too picky. My wife is sensitive to ozone so we don't want it. That doesn't mean we're excluding models that have it as I know it can simply be disabled - our Arctic Spa had ozone that's how we know about the sensitivity issue and that it can be disabled easily. If we find the right tub and it has ozone, it'll be disabled by the dealer for warranty coverage.
I was under the assumption that most tubs turn ozone off when you enable pump 1? Or wait. That's just tubs with a circ pump. If you turn on a jet pump it disables the ozone. Ozone only works when the circ pump is operating.
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I was under the assumption that most tubs turn ozone off when you enable pump 1? Or wait. That's just tubs with a circ pump. If you turn on a jet pump it disables the ozone. Ozone only works when the circ pump is operating.
The circ pump runs all the time 24/7 so the ozone will be running all the time. In a properly designed tub, it should shut down the ozone generator while the jet pumps are on. Even so, my wife can't be in or close to tubs with ozone, period.
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I was under the assumption that most tubs turn ozone off when you enable pump 1? Or wait. That's just tubs with a circ pump. If you turn on a jet pump it disables the ozone. Ozone only works when the circ pump is operating.
The circ pump runs all the time 24/7 so the ozone will be running all the time. In a properly designed tub, it should shut down the ozone generator while the jet pumps are on. Even so, my wife can't be in or close to tubs with ozone, period.
Unplug it. You can do that on any brand
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Unplug it. You can do that on any brand
Yup...already discussed that earlier and did it in our Arctic Spa. It's not a deal breaker to come with an ozone generator by any means. But I appreciate having the option to choose whether we want it or not from the manufacturer. Regardless, we'll be looking at a couple of tubs this weekend and I know one comes with ozone.
Another thing is the circ pump...don't have a need for one since we don't want ozone. And if there's no ozone, there's no need for 24/7 circulation as the filters don't actually sanitize the water, they just trap particles. We don't go in the tub oily or soapy (rinse shower first), and we don't track grass or dirt into the tub. That's why our last tub had such clean water and was very easy to maintain. Even with daily use I only had to do a water change 3x a year. I would schedule it for end of November so we were good all winter (don't want to do it at -20'C) till end of March, then change it and change it again in July. We used the dichlor + bleach method...very easy to maintain.
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While it is one more piece to possibly break, a circ pump will use less electricity to operate for 24 hours than a jet pump uses in 4 hours of filtration and it is much quieter during filtration. Just sayin.
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Besides bullfrog what are your other finalists? If price wise, warranty wise and dealer wise they are about equals I'd wet test and pick the one you like the most
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While it is one more piece to possibly break, a circ pump will use less electricity to operate for 24 hours than a jet pump uses in 4 hours of filtration
Not quite...a circ pump is typically about 1 amp (230w) and a jet pump is about 4 amps (920w) on low which is used for filter cycles. Do the math and the circ pump will draw about 150% more power over a 24 hour period vs 4 hour filter cycle (5520 vs 3680). In my area we're blessed (sarcasm) with a hydro company that bills us too much during the day but less at night. I intend to set up filter cycles to run during "off peak" hours and save even more over the 24/7 circ pump.
and it is much quieter during filtration. Just sayin.
That I'll agree with. :)
But most tubs are fairly quiet these days when running on low speed. A typical conversation on the deck near the hot tub will be louder than the tub.
That's why I don't want a circ pump.
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Besides bullfrog what are your other finalists? If price wise, warranty wise and dealer wise they are about equals I'd wet test and pick the one you like the most
The problem is finding tubs that have our requirements. In the last month we've looked at all the brands we could find both in store and online sites but have narrowed it a lot due to requirements. We're also considering the A series A6L as it has a better warranty (10-year leak and 7-year shell) compared to 7 & 5 for the R series and many other brands. It costs about $1500 more but you get the better warranty, another jetpak, some lighting, auxiliary jet control, and pretty control panel (could care less about the control panel). It might be worth it for the warranty and extra jetpak.
We were going to look at the Hot Springs Sovereign but it comes with ozone and circ pump which we don't want and can't order without. Yes the ozone can be disabled, but the circ pump will be running 24/7 and not really do much for cleaning without the ozone activated.
Cost isn't a major factor...I'm willing to pay more to get what I want. ;D
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Not quite...a circ pump is typically about 1 amp (230w) and a jet pump is about 4 amps (920w) on low which is used for filter cycles. Do the math and the circ pump will draw about 150% more power over a 24 hour period vs 4 hour filter cycle (5520 vs 3680). In my area we're blessed (sarcasm) with a hydro company that bills us too much during the day but less at night. I intend to set up filter cycles to run during "off peak" hours and save even more over the 24/7 circ pump.
But you forgot to calculate jet pump run time between filter cycles to maintain heat. Which you won't have on a circ pump tub.
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Not quite...a circ pump is typically about 1 amp (230w) and a jet pump is about 4 amps (920w) on low which is used for filter cycles. Do the math and the circ pump will draw about 150% more power over a 24 hour period vs 4 hour filter cycle (5520 vs 3680). In my area we're blessed (sarcasm) with a hydro company that bills us too much during the day but less at night. I intend to set up filter cycles to run during "off peak" hours and save even more over the 24/7 circ pump.
But you forgot to calculate jet pump run time between filter cycles to maintain heat. Which you won't have on a circ pump tub.
Oh so the circ pump goes through the heater element? Are you sure about that because the flow rate would be very low causing the water to heat about 4x higher in the same chamber and contact time compared to a jet pump pushing the water through the heater?
(EDIT) just googled and it seems the circ pump does push water through the heater.
I'm sure the cycling of a jet pump to heat would still be in that 50% extra range though, so you might still break even for usage. If not I'm guessing it would be close enough to not be a major factor.
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Not quite...a circ pump is typically about 1 amp (230w) and a jet pump is about 4 amps (920w) on low which is used for filter cycles. Do the math and the circ pump will draw about 150% more power over a 24 hour period vs 4 hour filter cycle (5520 vs 3680). In my area we're blessed (sarcasm) with a hydro company that bills us too much during the day but less at night. I intend to set up filter cycles to run during "off peak" hours and save even more over the 24/7 circ pump.
But you forgot to calculate jet pump run time between filter cycles to maintain heat. Which you won't have on a circ pump tub.
Oh so the circ pump goes through the heater element? Are you sure about that because the flow rate would be very low causing the water to heat about 4x higher in the same chamber and contact time compared to a jet pump pushing the water through the heater?
(EDIT) just googled and it seems the circ pump does push water through the heater.
I'm sure the cycling of a jet pump to heat would still be in that 50% extra range though, so you might still break even for usage. If not I'm guessing it would be close enough to not be a major factor.
The circ pump is really valuable if sound is an issue for whatever reason (on a deck, next to a bedroom, close to the neighbor...) since it so much quieter and if you have ozone it allows it to run 24/7.
Its also less expensive to run that the 2 speed pump as TMan noted earlier but I agree with you that part shouldn't be enough of a cost savings to be a major difference.
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If not I'm guessing it would be close enough to not be a major factor.
I think this was mentioned a couple posts in.
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I love my BullFrog. I have the R6L and as others have stated, you don't use diverter valves, you can simply turn off anything you don't use. My wife likes the rainfall one but I like the neck massager and the Cascadia we both like. Its perfect for me because its completely customizable and its not like your going to keep adjusting. You adjust once (unless your picky) and it should work just fine without any more adjustments. Its NOT like an android. There aren't any quirks or anything difficult, you simply twist the knob on your choice of massage to your desired pressure. I do turn off the rainfall one when I want a hard neck massage.
I know when I wet tested the other spas, they didn't seem as powerful. Even when they had two pumps. The diverter knob only shut off one side but when I wanted to, I could shut off ALL of the other pumps to make it blast out (that's not the case anymore).
However, a couple of points:
1. Don't let anyone sit on the filter cover, mine broke because my daughter would keep sitting on it.
2. I find myself only using the customized jets, I don't use the built in ones (maybe that's why I think its more powerful). I rarely have guests in my spa as I don't trust many to be 'clean' or follow directions and since I'm normally the only one or its just me and my wife, we don't need the built in ones. When you wet test, be SURE to turn off all built in jets as you won't need them 90% of the time unless you party every week.
3. Be sure to ask the salesperson how much work that you think your going to put in for cleaning and water balance (this is for any spa) so they can recommend a system for clean water that will match your willingness to work on the spa.
Oh yeah:
http://www.whatsthebest-hottub.com/forum/index.php/topic,17507.0.html
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I love my BullFrog. I have the R6L and as others have stated, you don't use diverter valves, you can simply turn off anything you don't use. My wife likes the rainfall one but I like the neck massager and the Cascadia we both like. Its perfect for me because its completely customizable and its not like your going to keep adjusting. You adjust once (unless your picky) and it should work just fine without any more adjustments. Its NOT like an android. There aren't any quirks or anything difficult, you simply twist the knob on your choice of massage to your desired pressure. I do turn off the rainfall one when I want a hard neck massage.
I know when I wet tested the other spas, they didn't seem as powerful. Even when they had two pumps. The diverter knob only shut off one side but when I wanted to, I could shut off ALL of the other pumps to make it blast out (that's not the case anymore).
However, a couple of points:
1. Don't let anyone sit on the filter cover, mine broke because my daughter would keep sitting on it.
2. I find myself only using the customized jets, I don't use the built in ones (maybe that's why I think its more powerful). I rarely have guests in my spa as I don't trust many to be 'clean' or follow directions and since I'm normally the only one or its just me and my wife, we don't need the built in ones. When you wet test, be SURE to turn off all built in jets as you won't need them 90% of the time unless you party every week.
3. Be sure to ask the salesperson how much work that you think your going to put in for cleaning and water balance (this is for any spa) so they can recommend a system for clean water that will match your willingness to work on the spa.
Oh yeah:
http://www.whatsthebest-hottub.com/forum/index.php/topic,17507.0.html
Do you ever turn the jets on you don't use? I would just to purge all the lines so nasty stuff doesn't start building up in there
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The poster needs to find out what they like. What someone else likes won't matter one iota to the OP.
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We just ordered an A6L and had the option to add a second jet pump. It is apparently new for 2018. Will let you know how it works out.
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We just ordered an A6L and had the option to add a second jet pump. It is apparently new for 2018. Will let you know how it works out.
Great, your thoughts will be welcome.
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I just purchased an R5 and love it. I have to turn the jet packs down because I find the pressure from the pumps to be almost too much.