Hot Tub Forum
General => Beating a dead horse => Topic started by: spa_newb on November 02, 2008, 11:09:04 am
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Just went and looked at Arctic, we were overall pretty impressed. Here are some takeaways and questions:
The Forever Floor was great, they pitch this as a complete solution that removes the need for a concrete base. They said basically dig a base area out, pack tight with leveled mason sand and put the tub down. Sound accurate?
They also won me over on their insulation, which places all the foam on the outermost layer just inside the wooden cabinet, thus locking the heat generated from pumps, etc inside and letting it conduct through the fiberglass shell into the water, rather than the sprayed on foam coating the shell and or wrapped around pumps and pipes like most of the others... Anyone have any thoughts on this?
The Onzen sounds very promising, basically a new system that uses salt to generate chlorine on its own, combined with a higher end ozonator. Sounds like the part to replace the consumable in the ozonator is expensive though. Also I wonder how much they charge for the salt that needs to be put in up to twice a year. Seems like you could save a lot on chemicals though by paying a little extra at the beginning for Onzen.Thoughts?
I love the look of the cedar cabinets, but I'm not so high on the idea of staining them. They said stain twice a year. Sounds like a pain in the ass. How much does that cost in terms of stain? To get the "faux wood" its a $250 option.
The Jets seemed to protrude out, which surprised me, I wouldn't know if they felt uncomfortable until a wet test.
Overally nice tubs though.
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Be sure to read all the intructions on cooling the tub in the summer, also read the instructions on punching a whole in the corner of the cover to allow the water that builds up in the skirt to drain. I will add that the website mentions nothing about the bacteria and algae that builds up in the skirt of the cover.
I would wet test the spa for comfort, I would not limit my wet test to one brand, try all of the well known brands to find the spa that best fits you and your needs. Please share with us the model you are interrested in. Some of the models are a bit funky, in my opinion the "Pizza Lounges" are not very anatomically correct. Idf you find it comfortable in a wet test buy it!
Wet testing is the most important part when considering a spa. Why? some seats and loungers in the industry are still being designed where the lower lumbar is positioned forward in seat or lounger, this causes the lungs to be positioned horizontal, this enhances the chance that a person will float out of the seat. Too many jets or too powerful of jets will also cause floating out of any seat. I STRONGLY urge you to wet test before you buy. In the end if you pay $9k for a spa and get it home and hate it, chances are that you are stuck with a spa you hate.
Good luck!
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[glow]They also won me over on their insulation, which places all the foam on the outermost layer just inside the wooden cabinet, thus locking the heat generated from pumps, etc inside and letting it conduct through the fiberglass shell into the water, rather than the sprayed on foam coating the shell and or wrapped around pumps and pipes like most of the others... Anyone have any thoughts on this?[/glow]
would'nt the air from the pump need to be warmer than the water in the tub consistantly?
and is there a cooling fan on the main board to keep it from over heating and causing damage, like in your computer?
Just curious.
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Hello Spa Newb. Thanks for your interest in Arctic Spas. Most people on this forum will acknowledge that Arctic's are one of the top brands out there today.
I would suggest scheduling a wet test with you dealer to give one a try! Let me know if you have any other questions in regards to the Arctic Spas.
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Be sure to read all the intructions on cooling the tub in the summer, also read the instructions on punching a whole in the corner of the cover to allow the water that builds up in the skirt to drain. I will add that the website mentions nothing about the bacteria and algae that builds up in the skirt of the cover.
[glow]I would wet test the spa for comfort, I would not limit my wet test to one brand, try all of the well known brands to find the spa that best fits you and your needs. Please share with us the model you are interrested in. Some of the models are a bit funky, in my opinion the "Pizza Lounges" are not very anatomically correct. Idf you find it comfortable in a wet test buy it![/glow]
Wet testing is the most important part when considering a spa. Why? some seats and loungers in the industry are still being designed where the lower lumbar is positioned forward in seat or lounger, this causes the lungs to be positioned horizontal, this enhances the chance that a person will float out of the seat. Too many jets or too powerful of jets will also cause floating out of any seat. I STRONGLY urge you to wet test before you buy. In the end if you pay $9k for a spa and get it home and hate it, chances are that you are stuck with a spa you hate.
Good luck!
Exactly, before buying or calling seats "pizza lounges" you should take "spamans" advice and give it a try. Im sure spaman hasnt.
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Exactly, before buying or calling seats "pizza lounges" you should take "spamans" advice and give it a try. Im sure spaman hasnt.
Yea! sit in the Klondiker main lounge and let me know how well you stay down in the seat. Hold on to your hat because the only thing that will be touching the tub is your head on the head rest, the rest of your body floating at the surface of the water and your knees freezing because they were out of the water. You be the judge, this was just my experience. ;)
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You just must be like the "sample of one" the Spatech was talking about in that other thread sawman. The Klondiker is one of Arctics #1 sellers, and most people really like that spa. Its a very comfortabe spa, imo.
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Yea! sit in the Klondiker main lounge and let me know how well you stay down in the seat. Hold on to your hat because the only thing that will be touching the tub is your head on the head rest, the rest of your body floating at the surface of the water and your knees freezing because they were out of the water. You be the judge, this was just my experience. ;)
The exact reason that you wet test any spa that you buy, the seats in any spa can be comfortable for some and uncomfortable for others. Doesnt mean its a bad spa, just not for all. Of course ALL of spamans spas he sells or services, fit Andre the Giant and Spud Webb all at the same time!!!
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Just went and looked at Arctic, we were overall pretty impressed. Here are some takeaways and questions:
The Forever Floor was great, they pitch this as a complete solution that removes the need for a concrete base. They said basically dig a base area out, pack tight with leveled mason sand and put the tub down. Sound accurate?
My understanding is that many spas can be installed this way. While doing my homework, I have spoken with several contractors that do this kind of work in my area. The additional cost of making the pad from concrete is minimal, and helps keep the spa free of sand and debris.
They also won me over on their insulation, which places all the foam on the outermost layer just inside the wooden cabinet, thus locking the heat generated from pumps, etc inside and letting it conduct through the fiberglass shell into the water, rather than the sprayed on foam coating the shell and or wrapped around pumps and pipes like most of the others... Anyone have any thoughts on this?
Several that I have looked at do the "air" chamber insulation method, most do full foam. As best I can tell, as long as you are looking at a premium brand, they all work. I work in the auto industry, and I can tell you that unless the air temperature inside the "air chamber" is greater that what your water temp is, then there is no real gain. Again, this only holds true in the premium brands.
The Onzen sounds very promising, basically a new system that uses salt to generate chlorine on its own, combined with a higher end ozonator. Sounds like the part to replace the consumable in the ozonator is expensive though. Also I wonder how much they charge for the salt that needs to be put in up to twice a year. Seems like you could save a lot on chemicals though by paying a little extra at the beginning for Onzen.Thoughts?
Dont know what salt generator salt costs, or if their salt is special for the tub. How often is the "consumable" in the ozone to be replaced? is it expensive? Chemicals are not all that expensive so I dont know that you would save "a lot" or just a few bucks a month.
I love the look of the cedar cabinets, but I'm not so high on the idea of staining them. They said stain twice a year. Sounds like a pain in the ass. How much does that cost in terms of stain? To get the "faux wood" its a $250 option.
I am not a diyer so I have no desire to stain. I would buy the fake wood.
The Jets seemed to protrude out, which surprised me, I wouldn't know if they felt uncomfortable until a wet test.
I would do a dry test also. Take off your shoes and hop in. If the jets stick out and hit your back dry, they will do it wet as well.
Overally nice tubs though.
They were nice when I looked at them. I had a few concerns that led me away...
http://www.arcticspas.com/downloads/warranty/Arctic%20Spas%20Warranty%20English.pdf
Many of their warranty items do not include labor costs. So if your other components, or your cabinet need attention, the labor, while under warranty is on you.
The cover warranty does not cover normal wear and tear. Not sure what that means, but its a three year warranty, and if it fails becasuse you used it, its not covered?
Too much DIY on things like Union Connection leaks
The big one for me in Disclaimers, Arctic spas warranties are limited to the maximum amount of monies recieved by Arctic spa with respect to the sale of the spa. Meaning if the dealer paid $1000 for the tub, Arctic does not have to honor the warranty after they have spent $1000 in repair costs.
No ones warranty in this industry is perfect, and the sames holds true in the Auto industry. I hope the informaiton is useful. I have been looking for quite a while, and I have learned a lot. Happy Hunting.
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Too much DIY on things like Union Connection leaks
If the dealer tightens them on delivery, you should not have any problem. However, if one of the unions begins to leak, it is very easy to simply reach in and tighten it. OK, on some models the reaching it is not so easy, but it's not a big deal. Usually it can be simply hand tight - that is what they are designed for - but if you have to go a bit more a hammer, or a scrap of wood can be used to tap it.
I know that some companies will fix these things and not charge, which is fine. But this is not a real common problem, nor is it a big deal if it does crop up. We have unions on our tubs, and I can't even remember the last time one leaked and caused a warranty visit.
8-)
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The exact reason that you wet test any spa that you buy, the seats in any spa can be comfortable for some and uncomfortable for others. Doesnt mean its a bad spa, just not for all. Of course ALL of spamans spas he sells or services, fit Andre the Giant and Spud Webb all at the same time!!!
O.K smarty ;) when you go into a pool and lay on your back, what happens? You float! when you go to the steps and sit streight up what happens? you are not near as likely to float as your lungs are vertical not horizontal, you certainly have more control over your body in the water when you sit vertical.. Try it!
Now take a spa with a lounge that the lower lumbar forces your rear end forward and lungs horizontal in the water. Muscular people have a little more control in this condition but not much. Anyone with even a small amount of fat will absolutley float in this scenario! You can not deny this fact! This is the reason almost the entire industry has gone to seats and lounges that sit you streight up. Take a look at the major brands out there! Seats are designed vertical not horizontal.
Wet test!
And yes I have a model for everyone! :)
Now all this talk about Arctic has made me hungry for Dominoes.
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O.K smarty ;) when you go into a pool and lay on your back, what happens? You float! when you go to the steps and sit streight up what happens? you are not near as likely to float as your lungs are vertical not horizontal, you certainly have more control over your body in the water when you sit vertical.. Try it!
Now take a spa with a lounge that the lower lumbar forces your rear end forward and lungs horizontal in the water. Muscular people have a little more control in this condition but not much. Anyone with even a small amount of fat will absolutley float in this scenario! [glow]You can not deny this fact[/glow]! This is the reason almost the entire industry has gone to seats and lounges that sit you streight up. Take a look at the major brands out there! Seats are designed vertical not horizontal.
Wet test!
And yes I have a model for everyone! :)
Now all this talk about Arctic has made me hungry for Dominoes.
I will deny your alleged "fact", because its not a "fact", its your opinion. I have tested the Klondiker personally, and have witnessed many customers wet test it as well. Most that test and want a lounger absolutely love it! I guess next time anyone engineers a spa they should fly it by the National Spaman and Pool Institute since you know it all! Carry on, obviously you have personal interest against Arctic. Stay classy spaman, Im sure you dont want to make anyone mad, you need a new spa line for next year!
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Nope, I have the spa line that I have stood by for years. Arctic plays no role here. The local guy who sells Arctic here use to work for us, while he was here he spent alot of time putting comparative notes on the company computer. In his own words I can show a customer why my tubs are better. This guy even went as far to put his name at the bottom of his notes. If Arctic did not change their designs they would sit on the floor and not be sold on a floor that I worked. I cannot sell if I do not believe in it!
Ask around you will see.
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Sounds like your salesman left to go sell a better spa. Can't say I blame him. Smart man!
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Sounds like your salesman left to go sell a better spa. Can't say I blame him. Smart man!
He is a genius!
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Nope, I have the spa line that I have stood by for years. Arctic plays no role here. The local guy who sells Arctic here use to work for us, while he was here he spent alot of time putting comparative notes on the company computer. In his own words I can show a customer why my tubs are better. This guy even went as far to put his name at the bottom of his notes. If Arctic did not change their designs they would sit on the floor and not be sold on a floor that I worked. I cannot sell if I do not believe in it!
Ask around you will see.
I dont need to ask around, they sell VERY WELL for me and my customers. Im not here to tout them just defend is all. Funny thing is those notes you have, he really didnt know the product like dealers or customers would since he didnt sell them or own that brand of spa at the time. He was just a competition coming up with ways to try and sell against Arctic.
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For the record sawman, just so the new people on here know, you just started selling Cal Spas again just a few weeks ago. You left your old place of employment from another Cal dealer to go work with your brother Steu, and didnt sell Cal for quite a while until recently. There were many of times where you bad mouthed cal when you werent selling them; that isnt much for support. So, what did you sell when Cal wasnt on your floor?? ::)
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For the record sawman, just so the new people on here know, you just started selling Cal Spas again just a few weeks ago. You left your old place of employment from another Cal dealer to go work with your brother Steu, and didnt sell Cal for quite a while until recently. There were many of times where you bad mouthed cal when you werent selling them; that isnt much for support. So, what did you sell when Cal wasnt on your floor?? ::)
O.K you are confused on my background.you are confused as to where I worked prior to working for Stuart, You are confused as to my loyalty on Cal Spas, anyone on here that knows me knows I have stayed loyal to Cal Spas through the entire time I did not have Cal Spas on the floor. The only near negative thing I have ever said was that it was nice to not have the service phone ring as often as it had @ Cal. There were some minor things that Cal went through that needed attention. Name a brand that hasn't had these issues and I will make you a liar.
To answer your question what I had on the floor when Cal wasn't the answer is D1 and Marquis.
You have to understand, when I talk about comfort and design I don't pull it out of my ear, I have seen the transition in the industry from the old molds where a lounge was a simple bench that layed you way back. Why has the entire industry changed these lounges? The answer is because when ever people would go to buy their second spa they would come in saying "we do not want a lounger this time" this was because they would float out of the lounger and could never use it. The lounge takes up 3 seats in a hottub, most of the industry has made the change in seats where your lower lumbar no longer is positioned way forward, they have learned that this is what is causing discomfort and floating. Take a look at other brands.
Do you really think I made this stuff up? I am not even smart enough to make this stuff up.
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your not the only guy selling tubs that knows a poorly designed lounger allows people to float. Our loungers dont cause anymore people to float than any other brand of spa. Until you have sold these spas first hand and talked to actual Arctic customers first hand you are assuming, and we all know what assuming can do.
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your not the only guy selling tubs that knows a poorly designed lounger allows people to float. Our loungers dont cause anymore people to float than any other brand of spa. Until you have sold these spas first hand and talked to actual Arctic customers first hand you are assuming, and we all know what assuming can do.
I do know what my experience is from sitting in a Klondiker laying on my back, and my knees 3" out of the water because I could not hang on. I talk to Arctic customer weekly, I have seen Arctic first hand at homeshows all over the country, accumulative hours peering into the cabinets and even trying to help people with the overheating of their spas in the summer time. I think I may have enough info to make an educated analogy of what my opinion is.
People: Please do not take my word for it just wet test and if you like it, buy it! I have only an opinion that needs no merit or proof, I hold no weight in any buying decision, I can give a very small of input of certains things you may want to look for.
I appologise to this board as even I am bored with this thread already.
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I do know what my experience is from sitting in a Klondiker laying on my back, and my knees 3" out of the water because I could not hang on. I talk to Arctic customer weekly, I have seen Arctic first hand at homeshows all over the country, accumulative hours peering into the cabinets and even trying to help people with the overheating of their spas in the summer time. I think I may have enough info to make an educated analogy of what my opinion is.
People: Please do not take my word for it just wet test and if you like it, buy it! I have only an opinion that needs no merit or proof, I hold no weight in any buying decision, I can give a very small of input of certains things you may want to look for.
I appologise to this board as even I am bored with this thread already.
All this being your opinion, which is great because this is a public forum and opinions are necessary to make this board relevant. Just dont state opinions as facts.
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Ya, I appologise two if I am borring peopple. I will try to keep thangs streight from hear. ;)
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All this being your opinion, which is great because this is a public forum and opinions are necessary to make this board relevant. Just dont state opinions as facts.
The only thing stated is fact is something that I learned in several search and rescue courses. In a water rescue, always wrap around the neck and cross to the opposite armpit and swim in the oposite direction, this will force the lungs horizontal and the body will float better, let go of the armpit and the body will not float horizontally and will most likely cause the 2 of you to sink and drown. One more time if the lungs are vertical less float, if the lungs are horizontal more float. This can't be disputed I do not care who ya are.
I am done, it is time for my anger management, and chemical dependany class.
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The only thing stated is fact is something that I learned in several search and rescue courses. In a water rescue, always wrap around the neck and cross to the opposite armpit and swim in the oposite direction, this will force the lungs horizontal and the body will float better, let go of the armpit and the body will not float horizontally and will most likely cause the 2 of you to sink and drown. One more time if the lungs are vertical less float, if the lungs are horizontal more float. This can't be disputed I do not care who ya are.
I am done, it is time for my anger management, and chemical dependany class.
your lungs wouldnt be horizontal in that seat.
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your lungs wouldnt be horizontal in that seat.
(http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b51/cristcabin/klondiker_legend_se.jpg)
(http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b51/cristcabin/09Show.jpg)
Here is the comparison and if you look at others such as, HotSpring Envoy, Cal Spa, D1 (except the Seville which is a laid out lounge also)
O.k now I am done 4 real.
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Ill post pics tomorrow when I get my camera into the store, of someone setting in the seats. Trust me your lungs are NOT horizontal, unless of course I dont know what horizontal is.
The spa is extremely comfortable and all the people that have bought it from me have LOVED it. But im sure you know more than I, since youve been to so many home shows, and worked on so many. Your the "spaman"
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Nice pics sawman!! Doesnt matter what spa, you name the brand, and look at reviews from people on any spa forum, and you will hear people saying that they float out in their loungers. Sometimes it is just the person, not the spa. Doesnt matter if it is a HS, D1, Jacuzzi, or Arctic. Some people just float in loungers, and some do not. That is why some people just say screw the lounger, and buy a HS, D1, Jacuzzi, or Arctic Spa without a lounger.
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My friend knew a guy at another dealership in Seattle, he told people fat floats and you probably wouldn't want a lounger!! He had a phenomenal close ratio. And he didn't sell many loungers.
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Be sure to read all the instructions on cooling the tub in the summer, also read the instructions on punching a whole in the corner of the cover to allow the water that builds up in the skirt to drain.
It's true. The Arctic line was engineered for maximum efficiency in cold climates. Cooling the spa http://www.industrymailout.com/Industry/View.aspx?id=45698&p=0456#article123571 is recommended for areas with a hot summer or in hot climates.
Cover flaps instructions are here: http://www.industrymailout.com/Industry/LandingPage.aspx?id=132276&p=1. Don't know how many people actually have this issue but I understand that the covers now come self-draining (can't confirm at the moment). The CastCore cover still remains one of the strongest and most energy-efficient covers AFAIK.
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It's true. The Arctic line was engineered for maximum efficiency in cold climates. Cooling the spa http://www.industrymailout.com/Industry/View.aspx?id=45698&p=0456#article123571 is recommended for areas with a hot summer or in hot climates.
Cover flaps instructions are here: http://www.industrymailout.com/Industry/LandingPage.aspx?id=132276&p=1. Don't know how many people actually have this issue but I understand that the covers now come self-draining (can't confirm at the moment). The CastCore cover still remains one of the strongest and most energy-efficient covers AFAIK.
That is all fine and dandy, however I have delt with more than 10 Arctic spas in the Denver and Colorado Springs areas that have had problems overheating in the summer. I guess global warming has included to be in the "hot climates". What is never addressed is what happens to equipment packs when it gets 250 degrees inside one of these cabinets. I can appreciate the pumps that you have added, it is a real solution toward preventing the pump problems that go along with extreme heat conditions in the cabinet.
I have only seen a hand full of covers that build up water in the skirt, however what I have seen in several is that black mold grows inside the skirt and also causes a mildew smell.
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That is all fine and dandy, however I have delt with more than 10 Arctic spas in the Denver and Colorado Springs areas that have had problems overheating in the summer. I guess global warming has included to be in the "hot climates". What is never addressed is what happens to equipment packs when it gets 250 degrees inside one of these cabinets. I can appreciate the pumps that you have added, it is a real solution toward preventing the pump problems that go along with extreme heat conditions in the cabinet.
I have only seen a hand full of covers that build up water in the skirt, however what I have seen in several is that black mold grows inside the skirt and also causes a mildew smell.
250 degrees!!! Wow, Im surprised that I dont have a 1,000 returned arctic spas in my front parking lot if that was true. That doesnt happen cause if the HL probe (which keep in mind sits INSIDE the cabinet) senses 119 degrees it trips the HL error code and the heater shuts down. I have run the spa continuously in the showroom with temp sensors inside the cabinet showing it gets nowhere near the 119 let alone 250 degrees.
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My point exactly! In a perfect world I suppose the cabinet would stay between 105 and 119(since the temp in the cabinet must be above the temp. of the water to be effective), however while filtering on a 95 to 103 degree day, the heat builds immensly. It happens!
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groan....who let the dogs out?
Arctic has a reputation as being one of the better tubs out there. And as Spaman pointed out there are some down sides to thier tubs as well. Over all though you could do far worse.
My advice is to WET test. Dry testing will do nothing. the boencey from the water and pressure off the jets changes everything.
I would also visit and wet test some other tubs from other manufacuters. If for the sole purpose of confirming what you already like. There are many tubs out there, and some are better than others. However, if you could take a look at other tubs that are considered industry leaders as well, I think you will be in better posistion ot make an informed decsion. Consider looking at Hotsrpings, Sundance, Caldera, JAcquizi.
As far as staining the tub, I think there is nothing nicer than a beautifuily stained wood skirt on a hot tub, AND there is nothing as ugly as a wood skirt that has been neglegtid. I have had both, and I prefer vinly siding for ease of maintence.
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groan....who let the dogs out?
Arctic has a reputation as being one of the better tubs out there. And as Spaman pointed out there are some down sides to thier tubs as well. Over all though you could do far worse.
My advice is to WET test. Dry testing will do nothing. the boencey from the water and pressure off the jets changes everything.
I would also visit and wet test some other tubs from other manufacuters. If for the sole purpose of confirming what you already like. There are many tubs out there, and some are better than others. However, if you could take a look at other tubs that are considered industry leaders as well, I think you will be in better posistion ot make an informed decsion. Consider looking at Hotsrpings, Sundance, Caldera, JAcqui
As far as staining the tub, I think there is nothing nicer than a beautifuily stained wood skirt on a hot tub, AND there is nothing as ugly as a wood skirt that has been neglegtid. I have had both, and I prefer vinly siding for ease of maintence.
AMEN!
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My point exactly! In a perfect world I suppose the cabinet would stay between 105 and 119(since the temp in the cabinet must be above the temp. of the water to be effective), however while filtering on a 95 to 103 degree day, the heat builds immensly. It happens!
And if its a problem, which its been a extremely minimal problem, (even in my backyard), they make louvered doors for the hot days of summer to allow excessive heat to escape. Not an issue with any of my customers spaman.
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groan....who let the dogs out?
Arctic has a reputation as being one of the better tubs out there. And as Spaman pointed out there are some down sides to thier tubs as well. Over all though you could do far worse.
My advice is to WET test. Dry testing will do nothing. the boencey from the water and pressure off the jets changes everything.
I would also visit and wet test some other tubs from other manufacuters. If for the sole purpose of confirming what you already like. There are many tubs out there, and some are better than others. However, if you could take a look at other tubs that are considered industry leaders as well, I think you will be in better posistion ot make an informed decsion. Consider looking at Hotsrpings, Sundance, Caldera, JAcquizi.
Arctic Spas ARE in the same category as the others you mentioned. They are all five star with pool and spa, and they are all one of ten spas spa search certified which is all based off of customer feedback of previous and current owners of the spas mentioned. So, to be in the top eight with the other spas that you mentioned, I would say Arctic Spas are right up there with the others. Also, according to Lucite, they are in the top ten from a manufacturing standpoint, so they must be doing something right.
Here is a link to the 2008 spasearch certified spas for those that want to see it:
http://www.spasearch.org/topspas.php
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[glow]groan....who let the dogs out? [/glow]
Arctic has a reputation as being one of the better tubs out there. And as Spaman pointed out there are some down sides to thier tubs as well. Over all though you could do far worse.
My advice is to WET test. Dry testing will do nothing. the boencey from the water and pressure off the jets changes everything.
I would also visit and wet test some other tubs from other manufacuters. If for the sole purpose of confirming what you already like. There are many tubs out there, and some are better than others. However, if you could take a look at other tubs that are considered industry leaders as well, I think you will be in better posistion ot make an informed decsion. Consider looking at Hotsrpings, Sundance, Caldera, JAcquizi.
As far as staining the tub, I think there is nothing nicer than a beautifuily stained wood skirt on a hot tub, AND there is nothing as ugly as a wood skirt that has been neglegtid. I have had both, and I prefer vinly siding for ease of maintence.
EXACTLY
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oh, one more thing I'd also consider the attitude of the sales force in general when selecting a spa. I think it's a reflection on the commitment and quality by the actual manufactuers of the product.
It's been my expereince that there has always been one or two manufacters whos sales folks constantly rise to the top. With me, that's important. It tells me the manufactuers cares about who represents thier product and how it's serviced and sold.
I wont mention names, but I bet if you hang around here long enough, you'll quickly be able to tell the sincere quality companies from the hounds. ;)
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oh, one more thing I'd also consider the attitude of the sales force in general when selecting a spa. I think it's a reflection on the commitment and quality by the actual manufactuers of the product.
It's been my expereince that there has always been one or two manufacters whos sales folks constantly rise to the top. With me, that's important. It tells me the manufactuers cares about who represents thier product and how it's serviced and sold.
I wont mention names, but I bet if you hang around here long enough, you'll quickly be able to tell the sincere quality companies from the hounds. ;)
yep like stating that a spa overheated to 250 degrees, when that is completely false. Dang hounds.
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yep like stating that a spa overheated to 250 degrees, when that is completely false. Dang hounds.
If I must go into this further I will, however it won't be pretty for Arctic, I am holding back at this point and I have tried to drop it several times, but the puppy keeps yiping! Let me know, I am happy to ablige! ;)
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Drew
I take offense to your last comments. I know you didn’t mention me personally, but that was clearly obvious. I am not a hound on this forum as you suggest.
I joined this forum to provide advice to customers that ask questions in regards to Arctic Spas, just as I did in this post for spa newb before it was attacked at by Spaman, and now you. I will always defend the product that I am selling from the negativity that is put out there by people like you two.
If you look at all my posts, you will see that I never bad mouth other brands of spas. I don’t spread negativity about other brands nor take side jabs where you say something like" Well thats a fine spa, but watch out for this, and beware of that." That just doesn’t happen. I have gotten pm's from several people thanking me for advice and for helping them out with questions. That is no where close to being a hound as you suggest. Maybe you should look in the mirror.
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If I must go into this further I will, however it won't be pretty for Arctic, I am holding back at this point and I have tried to drop it several times, but the puppy keeps yiping! Let me know, I am happy to ablige! ;)
Im not a "puppy" their spaman, I dont appreciate the snide remarks. Im just on here trying to keep facts straight. Opinions are fine, we all know that Arctic has problems with their spas just like any other brand does. Arctic is also one of the elite brands whether you like it or not. I have worked on and sold the Arctic line for years just like any other brand, and their is nothing abnormal about the work that I have had to do with the Arctic spas. Carry on if you like, and hey keep calling names, maybe you can run for public office next go around.
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REMINDER Keep the maturity level up.
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(http://media.bigoo.ws/content/smile/tongue/tongue_23.gif)
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What is never addressed is what happens to equipment packs when it gets 250 degrees inside one of these cabinets.
:D Water boils at 212F (a little less in Denver because of the altitude). To paraphrase the witches in Macbeth: "Double, double toil and trouble, hot tub boil and potion bubble..."
The Alberta Research Council's Thermal Performance Test of Spas http://www.arcticspas.com/downloads/performance/Thermal%20Performance%20Test%20of%20Spas.pdf included data on equipment enclosure temperatures (Fig. 2 p. 4). For an average ambient temperature of 19C and a constant water temperature of 40C, the EETs ranged from about 23C to about 42C (all spas). In other words, after a continuous run of 96 hours, at no time did the equipment temperature of any spa exceed 110F.
Certainly at higher ambient temperatures the EET will rise, which is why we offer some warm-weather solutions.
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:D Water boils at 212F (a little less in Denver because of the altitude). To paraphrase the witches in Macbeth: "Double, double toil and trouble, hot tub boil and potion bubble..."
The Alberta Research Council's Thermal Performance Test of Spas http://www.arcticspas.com/downloads/performance/Thermal%20Performance%20Test%20of%20Spas.pdf included data on equipment enclosure temperatures (Fig. 2 p. 4). For an average ambient temperature of 19C and a constant water temperature of 40C, the EETs ranged from about 23C to about 42C (all spas). In other words, after a continuous run of 96 hours, at no time did the equipment temperature of any spa exceed 110F.
Certainly at higher ambient temperatures the EET will rise, which is why we offer some warm-weather solutions.
19c is 66.2f we are talking about 100f to 105f ambient, also the test you describe only has the water temp @73f water is a natural coolant.
In regards to the summer kit you offer, that was my whole point, the customer need to ask about that before the sale, this way they know they have extra costs to incur.
A real test would be with the westerly sun bearing down on the cabinet @ 8000 ft. elevation for an entire afternoon @102f. With water temp @102f.
Let me know how that goes. ;)
In the winter when temps drop below freezing, in order for your theory of insulation to operate properly, the cabinet temp has to maintain above the temp of the water in the tub. Is this what happens 24/7?
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19c is 66.2f we are talking about 100f to 105f ambient, try that for 96 hours.
Yow, that IS hot. I hope it cools down at night?
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Yow, that IS hot. I hope it cools down at night?
I threw that out there because it is as rediculous as the test you are showing at temps. of 66.2F.
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I threw that out there because it is as rediculous as the test you are showing at temps. of 63F.
I am not "throwing things out there"; I am reporting facts. Can't see why you'd say it is ridiculous. Doesn't the CEC test run at an ambient of 68F or so?
We did another series of tests at -12C (10F). To us, testing at those temperatures makes a great deal of sense, as they represent typical temperatures in our market area. According to the National Climatic Data Center website, the mean annual ambient in the US is around 55F (13C) while that for Canada is 7C (45F). The ARC testing seems well in within range for both countries.
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I am not "throwing things out there"; I am reporting facts. Can't see why you'd say it is ridiculous. Doesn't the CEC test run at an ambient of 68F or so?
We did another series of tests at -12C (10F). To us, testing at those temperatures makes a great deal of sense, as they represent typical temperatures in our market area. According to the National Climatic Data Center website, the mean annual ambient in the US is around 55F (13C) while that for Canada is 7C (45F). The ARC testing seems well in within range for both countries.
Funny how you are showing tests based on national averages, since the tub is sold primarily touting its performance in climates that range from 105F and down to -30F, I would find it fitting to test in the extremes that the sales pitch presents. Once more if the temperature inside the cabinet drops below that of the water in the tub, the insulation is broken and the tub is losing temp.One more time, if the tub water is 104 and the cabinet temp drops to 100, the temp of the tub is going to reduce. Your test also shows a water temp of the 70's F, This is easy in any spa! The higher you set the temp of the water in an Arctic the harder it would seem to heat the tub without losing heat.
Since I live in a climate above 8000ft elevation, sometimes weeks go by and we do not see o Degrees F, what will the temp of the inside of that cabinet be?
In the summer when the sun hits and it is 103 outside and the sun is beating down, what will the inside of that cabinet be?
I do agree with the fact that in a power outage the equipment area is protected longer.
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I would think that if Arctics control systems and pumps were "cooking" up they would change it because the warranty replacements would be a killer. On the other side, if the tub was costing people a fortune to run in the winter you would see the complaints on the forum.
We have owned both a full foam (Barefoot) and a few dead air tubs. (Clearwaters) There was no noticable difference in our electric when we switched from each. We have never had issues with dead air tubs, at least in this area, going through more compnents due to the heat in the cabinet....but we are
BADH....once again.
Purchase a quality tub with proven background from a quality dealer with proven customer service and you should be fine....
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It is a simple question. ;)
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It is a simple question. ;)
I don't have the answer - I've never seen temperatures like that in my life. Ugh. Don't ever want to.
This overheating thing is a common brand bash. I used to have the temperature specs for the motors and things. Maybe an Arctic owner or dealer in the area can tell us. But for fairness, the answer should be given for other brands, too.
Tests with the Arctic Chiller, a little air conditioner we can add to keep things cool, have seen equipment compartment temps down to 3C (again, at ambient 20C, under controlled conditions with our electrical engineer keeping close watch on overdriven units. Don't try this at home!)
... since the tub is sold primarily touting its performance in climates that range from 105F and down to -30F
Is it really? I've written a lot of the ad copy, so you'd think I'd know about that 105F part. Maybe that's from the Arctic Chiller. I'll have to go see what Marketing is up to. Certainly the -30 is fine.
Spaman, if you want to join me over in the Dead Horse Saloon, I'll buy you a drink and we can discuss the thermodynamics of a properly built perimeter-insulation spa. But if it's 105F, please turn on the AC before I get there.
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O.K so just agree or disagree that the cabinet temp must be at or above the water in the tub in order to be effective. We can start there.
Pueblo Colorado if you check the almanac 105f down below -30F.
My home town Salmon Idaho 105F down below -30F
this whole region is the same.
It is a valid question.
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I would think that if Arctics control systems and pumps were "cooking" up they would change it because the warranty replacements would be a killer. On the other side, if the tub was costing people a fortune to run in the winter you would see the complaints on the forum.
We have owned both a full foam (Barefoot) and a few dead air tubs. (Clearwaters) There was no noticable difference in our electric when we switched from each. We have never had issues with dead air tubs, at least in this area, going through more compnents due to the heat in the cabinet....but we are
BADH....once again.
Purchase a quality tub with proven background from a quality dealer with proven customer service and you should be fine....
HMMM Spa cabinet chiller would give evidence otherwise.
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O.K so just agree or disagree that the cabinet temp must be at or above the water in the tub in order to be effective. We can start there.
If pointing out that water boils at 212F doesn't show your 250F figure to be in error, I'd rather start at another spot. You've heard of the greenhouse effect? Check this out: http://www.randomuseless.info/318ti/temperature/temperature.html. Now, at an ambient temperature approaching 100F in open sun--the very conditions you posited-- those cars did not exceed 195F interior temperature (extrapolating the curve) under greenhouse conditions. Therefore, I put it to you that the interior temperature of an insulated cedar cabinet cannot exceed that temperature and further that it will not even approach that temperature. Nor will the motors run under those conditions.
It is a valid question.
It is a dead horse, but can we play again next week? I gotta get back to work.
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We are not talking about cars we are talking about a hot tub that generates and holds heat in the summer and a hot tub in the that does not insulate well because the cabint temp. drops below the temp of the water in the tub. I guess when you are wrong it is a dead horse and you boys have danced around the question for 4 pages now.
So if the air temp in the cabinet drops below the temp of the water, the air cannot insulate the tub, it becomes a sponge and uses up the heat in the tub to heat the cooler cavity.
So now I will let it die until one of you boys dig it up again, I have let it go 3 times and one of you always digs it up.
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(http://www1.istockphoto.com/file_thumbview_approve/170941/2/istockphoto_170941_shovel.jpg)
Oh sawman, if you only knew as much as you think you do... keep on flapping those lips buddy!!
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OK,
For the most part I've stayed out of this fray other than my little smiley face I put up as a joke but.... Now I have jump in. Let's forgo the insults and jabs that seem to always come up when we bring up this brand and try some logic.
For the Arctic boys I have to say that your myopic view of what your spa is or isn't can be considered admirable unless your on a side that deals with just about any type of insulation, where you have choices and can offer those choices to your customers with more just a good story.
I'm not sure I agree with how hot your cabinet gets however, if you talk with any manufacture of the chips, transformers, electronics and even motors they say that optimal operating range for those components is between 0 and 100 degrees. That doesn't mean that they can't operate outside of those temps but it's harder on them if they do long term. If you don't believe this than unplug the fan on your computer and see how long it lasts you. In most cases a thermopane cabinet can and will get hotter than that and if it doesn’t then the whole pitch has no merit.
The other issue is that in order for that type of system to be really effective you need to completely seal the cabinet and that doesn't happen.
In that type of system you should not preach that you "recapture and reheat" the spa with the cabinet heat but rather "Maintain" the heat (I’m not claiming you do it either way just making a general statement of how it should be). In order to do this effectively you need to regulate the filter cycles and pump run times a bit better than most spas and work at keeping the temp as even and constant as possible in the cabinet.
I personally do believe that spas with a thermopane type insulation are harder on the components over time than a spa that vents it off and I would challenge "What I think I know" with anyone on this board. I sell or service as many of both types of insulation everyday and have for around 20 years. I started in this industry selling LA and Morgan telling the thermopane story.
To add to this I personally have found that the plumbing covered in insulation remains more pliable than plumbing exposed to heat and open air and the jet seals and jets at the shell connection point don't get brittle as fast.
If you don't believe this than I would really have to challenge how much service you've done on spas that have been in the field longer than 5 years.
Having said all of this do I believe that it will make a huge difference to the customer?
No not really considering that most customers don't own that same spa for longer than 6 years. My concern here is that it's being sold all over the country as having the same lifespan with either method of insulation and that simply isn't true.
I also resent that this was put in “beating a dead horse” because it’s a great debate topic and customers could learn a lot from it. I do understand that with the level childish insults that it was escalating to that Bill had to move it.
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Clearwaters separate the control system and ozone in its own little box that is not in the dead air space are, only the pumps are. The isulation goes around the backside of the box. Is Arctics control system separated in that way also.
What is the R-value of the foam that is used in a full foam cabinet? As the foam heats up to the temp of the tub and is drawn to the outside of the cabinet, insnt it transfered to the cabinet then to the outside or is there a layer of foil on the cabinet in the full foam tubs to transfer the heat back in? I know those foam coffee cups get hot unless they are wrapped.
Also, on the issue of the plumbing becoming weak. Doesn't the curing of the foam crate heat, a lot of heat tha can degrade the plumbing and glue joints? Doesn't the foam hold water? This causes issues over time or if the tub happens to leak, how do you dry the foam out?
We have also run into many more bees and rodents in full foam tubs and rodents raise havoc if they decide to start chewing.
As I said, i am not trying to be a pain, just trying to learn more. We looked long and hard to choose a tub line to carry and the insulation played a big role due to being in the North East, as did the ease of service so customers were not spending tons of dough to repair tubs and so we did not freeze in the middle of winter trying to fix a leak in the field. I guess each style has its pros and cons, it seems to come down to a personal preferance.
Don't get me wrong, I only beleive in quality built dead air space tubs. Most of them are not worth a pee hole in a snowbank. Our entry level tubs are a dead air space (Great Lakes) that I would never put up agaist a full foam tub, Arctic tub or Clearwater for effciency. Its a price point thing, pay less....get less.
Thanks in advance for mature answeres/comments to my questions.
We have been is the service aspect of spas for over 5 years, we see glue/brittle plumbing failures in dead air and full foam tubs, not one more than the other, we like the decremeted clips that many companies are going to for much of the plumbing.
Not trying to stir up more, curious.....
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I love these "debates" where everyone knows ohhh soo much about everyone elses product... ::)
It takes me back to all the "debates" about Beachcombers Protec (equipment outside, under the step) option and how horrible it was in cold climates... ::)
The fact that Beachcomber had sold it this way for years and that we personally sold here in Alberta for almost 2 decades seemed to have no impact on these "people of higher knowledge"... LOL ::) ;D I always got a kick out of that.
If the horror that spaman depicts was remotely accurate, don't you think it would be reported, widely commented on, obvious and industry wide common knowledge and changes would have had to have been made or that we would just watch them go out of business due to the 10's of thousands of warranty claims?? :-?
Obviously....it's not
And yes, it's OK to ask how something works instead of attacking it out of ignorance.
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[glow]I'm not sure I agree with how hot your cabinet gets however, if you talk with any manufacture of the chips, transformers, electronics and even motors they say that optimal operating range for those components is between 0 and 100 degrees.[/glow] That doesn't mean that they can't operate outside of those temps but it's harder on them if they do long term. If you don't believe this than unplug the fan on your computer and see how long it lasts you. In most cases a thermopane cabinet can and will get hotter than that and if it doesn’t then the whole pitch has no merit.
Im sitting here trying to think how Zero degree weather could possibly be considered "optimal" operating conditions for chips, transformers, electronics and even motors.
I can sit here all day and say that Ive got horror stories on all the spas I sell against. But then again I would be making up stories to make my competition look worse.
Pastries for thought.
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I love these "debates" where everyone knows ohhh soo much about everyone elses product... ::)
It takes me back to all the "debates" about Beachcombers Protec (equipment outside, under the step) option and how horrible it was in cold climates... ::)
The fact that Beachcomber had sold it this way for years and that we personally sold here in Alberta for almost 2 decades seemed to have no impact on these "people of higher knowledge"... LOL ::) ;D I always got a kick out of that.
If the horror that spaman depicts was remotely accurate, don't you think it would be reported, widely commented on, obvious and industry wide common knowledge and changes would have had to have been made or that we would just watch them go out of business due to the 10's of thousands of warranty claims?? :-?
Obviously....it's not
And yes, it's OK to ask how something works instead of attacking it out of ignorance.
It wasn't necessarily an attack, nor did I use the word "horror" I just told the customer to look into a couple things, if it was not an issue then Arctic would not have came up with a summer skirt, that is vented.(customers should be told about ssid skirt before buying the tub.) I am installing a thermometer in an Arctic cabinet and will measure the temps inside the cabinet vs. the temp of the water. I am very interested in seeing at what temp this spa cabinet is in cold temps. I am not ignorant Steve, as ignorance is standing by and taking any story that comes along as gospel. I do get irritated that noone seems to get or care that if in fact this cabinet is cooler than the water temp the insulation story is bunk. Either that or we just go along with any story that comes along. Stuart has a great point in that there are specs that these electronics are designed to operate at. At no time did he imply operating them in 0 degree temps is optimal, as every spa cabinet is much warmer than the outside air.
I think the name calling and sideline attacking is ignorant rather than offering some kind of fact or input to find solution to the disagreement.
Though I have dropped this several times it seems it is an irritant in the guys representing Arctics sides that there is someone who might question the story.
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It wasn't necessarily an attack, nor did I use the word "horror" I just told the customer to look into a couple things, if it was not an issue then Arctic would not have came up with a summer skirt, that is vented.(customers should be told about ssid skirt before buying the tub.) I am installing a thermometer in an Arctic cabinet and will measure the temps inside the cabinet vs. the temp of the water. I am very interested in seeing at what temp this spa cabinet is in cold temps. I am not ignorant Steve, as ignorance is standing by and taking any story that comes along as gospel. I do get irritated that noone seems to get or care that if in fact this cabinet is cooler than the water temp the insulation story is bunk. Either that or we just go along with any story that comes along. Stuart has a great point in that there are specs that these electronics are designed to operate at. At no time did he imply operating them in 0 degree temps is optimal, as every spa cabinet is much warmer than the outside air.
I think the name calling and sideline attacking is ignorant rather than offering some kind of fact or input to find solution to the disagreement.
Though I have dropped this several times it seems it is an irritant in the guys representing Arctics sides that there is someone who might question the story.
Question all you want spaman, its a great product that stacks up very well with the competition. I put my family name on it everyday running my business.
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Hillbilly,
Good questions however I have to question how much service background you've actually had....
In 20 years I've never seen more bees and bugs in a fully foamed tub! How could that be? They take the least path of resistance and the open chamber is much more welcoming than a closed one.
We have an issue here with spiders in TP cabinets...They love the dark open space for webs. Sure I've also see them in equipment compartments on full foam tubs but not nearly to the degree that I've seen them on TP.
As far as the plumbing getting "dried out" from the curing of the foam...I'm not sure what you’re talking about here but the plumbing doesn't "Dry out" in any "curing”. Our enemy is air when it comes to plumbing, air and possibly chemicals. Open any older HS spa (I use them as an example because they have a lot of ff spa out that are older) and look at the small tubing in the equipment compartment then look at some of the small tubing locked in the foam. Both can be a bit brittle however the tubing by the motors is very stiff and fragile and cannot be manipulated.
When you talk about "wrapping" a foam cup...What are you talking about? I can't remember anyone putting a sleeve over the heavy white foam cups that have been around forever to keep them from getting to warm but see them do that on the paper or thin foam used by some of the big companies. Just for logic sake why don't you contact an insulation company and see what they think of some of this?
Now to readdress the operating temp of the components... The bottom line is this; your thinking in the terms of water damage not wear....any component that can create heat will survive better in cooler conditions than hotter, that's just common sense. Heat breaks down plastics and metals much faster than cold does. If you don’t believe this than again, shut the fan off in your computer for awhile or better yet let it run in a cold environment like your garage and see if it shuts down then set it in the sun in front of your window while it operates and see if it has any problems. More than likely it will crash if it sets in the sunlight while operating very long.
As far as whether your product lasts or holds up against any other product, I would have to say that it does fine but as far as whether it makes more sense and is better than other products...that's where the battle begins. The key tricky phrase here is "Does it make sense" vs. "Does it make more sense".
Then to Steve's comment...I agree that often everyone thinks they know more about the competitors product than their own in these debates but also believe it is vital to know and understand not only your product but to become extremely knowledgeable in your competition. In this case we should probably take out the name brand and compare a style or philosophy of manufacturing a product. That's just kinda hard when so many think their brand is so different or so much better than everyone else.
The frustrating part for me is how many people comment with partial knowledge of what they are talking about and forgo common sense to support a myopic view of their revenue producing stream.
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These threads are interesting. Stuart pointed out some time ago that my experience is almost exclusively with Arctic (as employee) and Beachcomber (as former owner); since then, I've made a point of carefully examining other hot tubs that I see at demos, on display, etc. I forget - what brand, if any, does Spaman represent?
One part of my job on the forums is to "Provide accurate factual information [about our company or product] in response to (i) Direct queries (ii) Posts which contain inaccurate or false information."
IMO Spaman's assertion of interior temperatures approaching 250F is intentionally provocative; he meant to bug us, and like Pavlov's trained dogs, we have all responded. That's why I said I didn't have time to play last week.
Nonetheless, keep your eyes on facts.
1. Since water BOILS at 212F (less at higher altitudes), that 250F temperature is on the face of it ridiculous
2. I shared a study showing that at 100F ambient in hot sun, the interirior of a car approaches 195F (far short of 250) using the greenhouse effect which traps heat. Again, the 250F figure is clearly unlikely for an insulated space.
3. I point out, respectfully, that any insulated home in 100F ambient and full sun would not come even close to 250F -- you live there, you know that.
4. I shared a study showing internal temperatures recorded for eight different spas, regardless of construction.
5. Hillbilly pointed out that unreasonably high cavity temperatures would have disastrous warranty and customer satisfaction consequences. For the first, I can say that our warranty rates are equal to or better than those of other brands for which I have information (I am not allowed to release details, so don't ask). For the second, I point out that we are SpaSearch Certified -- recognition based entirely on customer satisfaction surveys.
Our product was engineered for cold temperatures; for hot weather configurations, we offer two hardware solutions to prevent the possibility of overheating so that the spa will operate correctly in "the world's harshest climates".
Spaman has offered to put a temperature probe inside an Arctic Spa to see what he gets. That's a reasonable approach.
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These threads are interesting. Stuart pointed out some time ago that my experience is almost exclusively with Arctic (as employee) and Beachcomber (as former owner); since then, I've made a point of carefully examining other hot tubs that I see at demos, on display, etc. I forget - what brand, if any, does Spaman represent?
One part of my job on the forums is to "Provide accurate factual information [about our company or product] in response to (i) Direct queries (ii) Posts which contain inaccurate or false information."
IMO Spaman's assertion of interior temperatures approaching 250F is intentionally provocative; he meant to bug us, and like Pavlov's trained dogs, we have all responded. That's why I said I didn't have time to play last week.
Nonetheless, keep your eyes on facts.
1. Since water BOILS at 212F (less at higher altitudes), that 250F temperature is on the face of it ridiculous
2. I shared a study showing that at 100F ambient in hot sun, the interirior of a car approaches 195F (far short of 250) using the greenhouse effect which traps heat. Again, the 250F figure is clearly unlikely for an insulated space.
3. I point out, respectfully, that any insulated home in 100F ambient and full sun would not come even close to 250F -- you live there, you know that.
4. I shared a study showing internal temperatures recorded for eight different spas, regardless of construction.
5. Hillbilly pointed out that unreasonably high cavity temperatures would have disastrous warranty and customer satisfaction consequences. For the first, I can say that our warranty rates are equal to or better than those of other brands for which I have information (I am not allowed to release details, so don't ask). For the second, I point out that we are SpaSearch Certified -- recognition based entirely on customer satisfaction surveys.
Our product was engineered for cold temperatures; for hot weather configurations, we offer two hardware solutions to prevent the possibility of overheating so that the spa will operate correctly in "the world's harshest climates".
Spaman has offered to put a temperature probe inside an Arctic Spa to see what he gets. That's a reasonable approach.
1) I never said that the temp of the water reaches 250f I was referring to inside of the cavity itself, I will admit I have not yet put a probe in an Arcitic cavity to measure these temps. I may have been a bit high, my whole point was that the temp of these cabinets get way to high for the componants that are inside the cabinet. The new pumps they are using are actually a great pump. Expensive to replace but great. The electronics and plumbing in high temps over time will become brittle. Arctic has admitted that the cabinets get too hot or they would not have designed a vented cabinet for their spas.I have first hand experienced atleast ten Arctic spas in our area that the water in the tub was above 107F. We live in a windy environment so lifting the lid to let the heat escape is not an option because of debris.
2) If the cabinet temp is not maintaining temps higher than the temp of the water in the tub then you are losing temp in the tub and wasting energy to not only heat the water in the tub but now you must pay to heat the cabinet as well.
3) your analogy of the car makes no sense, on a day when it is freezing outside turn your car of and see how long you can sit in it before it gets cold. Now if in the hot car you crank your heater on high your analogy holds water but then you have to remeasure the temp in the car.
I will let you know what we find on the operation temp of the cabinet, I am curious as to what temp this cabinet is all through the winter. One would hope it maintains above the water temp. And no I don't like my water @ 73F.
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1.[glow] Expensive to replace but great[/glow].
Not so much, actually the price of the pumps is about the same. But I guess YOU do know everything.
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[glow]The electronics and plumbing in high temps over time will become brittle. Arctic has admitted that the cabinets get too hot or they would not have designed a vented cabinet for their spas.I have first hand experienced atleast ten Arctic spas in our area that the water in the tub was above 107F. We live in a windy environment so lifting the lid to let the heat escape is not an option because of debris. [/glow]
Since we are speaking about this, I live in a windy environment that gets extremely hot and extremely cold (kansas), and have sold and owned the Arctic spa for over ten years. The only thing we have had to do is occasionally put a tennis ball under the spa cover to release some heat in the middle of August. And yes it reaches over 100 degrees for weeks at a time. Kind of funny too, that we have customers who have OTHER brands that have to do the SAME tennis ball trick, because of excessive heat. And since I have people who have owned Arctics for over ten years now I have never replaced a pump, pvc, heater, pack from being too brittle or from being exposed to excessive heat. But again what do I know?
PS i have a digital thermometer running on my spa right now that will test the interior temperatures that our pumps and packs have to operate in. I hope that they can BOIL since spaman says they need to be able to!!!
Its a great product that holds up very well in all types of conditions.
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I'd appreciate it if you could put that thermometer under the cabinet and get a temp reading :-)
I highly doubt temps close to 250, but if they are in the range of about 180, I might be looking for a new spa 8-)
See, I have this amazing recipe for duck, that requires cooking for 8 hours at 180 degrees. It's a bit tough to do in my oven as the duck needs to be hung from the top of the oven with a drip pan underneath. My oven just isn't tall enough. I'm also thinking, the duck aroma therapy would be rather astounding! Let me know ::)
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You guys with this boiling thing crack me up as I was never once was talking about the water being able to boil, that is just stupid! We are talking about the inside of that cabinet. Does it continually operate above the temp of the water in the tub? If so how high? I can never seem to get a reply from any of the Arctic guys as to how the dead air space can actually contribute to the actual heating of the tub if the temp in the cabinet is below that of the water. The answer is it can't, it is actually costing more to heat the tub and the cabinet. But what do I know? I am new to this whole industry.
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You guys with this boiling thing crack me up as I was never once was talking about the water being able to boil, that is just stupid! We are talking about the inside of that cabinet. Does it continually operate above the temp of the water in the tub? If so how high? I can never seem to get a reply from any of the Arctic guys as to how the dead air space can actually contribute to the actual heating of the tub if the temp in the cabinet is below that of the water. The answer is it can't, it is actually costing more to heat the tub and the cabinet. But what do I know? I am new to this whole industry.
Right now the temp in my Arctic cabinet is 102 degrees. Its been running and reading the temp for over two hours now and the highest its gotten is 106 degrees. Oh by the way I have the heater unplugged from the pack so its just using the waste heat off the pumps while its filtrating to keep the spa at 104 degrees.
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You guys with [glow]this boiling thing crack me up as I was never once was talking about the water being able to boil, that is just stupid[/glow]
p.s. calling people stupid isnt a great way to debate, but maybe thats just me. Also saying the temp in the cabinet is 250 degrees is saying that the water is boiling in the spa.
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[glow]Does it continually operate above the temp of the water in the tub? If so how high? I can never seem to get a reply from any of the Arctic guys as to how the dead air space can actually contribute to the actual heating of the tub if the temp in the cabinet is below that of the water. The answer is it can't, it is actually costing more to heat the tub and the cabinet. But what do I know? I am new to this whole industry[/glow].
I never explained it because youve been unwilling to listen. Basically the waste heat off the pumps that HAVE to run to filter the water is utilitized to aid the heater in heating and keeping the water warm in the spa. The pumps, heaters, packs dont have to run any longer than any other brand of spa. Actually one could argue that the heater runs less which would save money on the bill. Its not the only way building, not even saying its the best. Its the way Arctic makes it and it works VERY WELL for me and all my customers.
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[glow]Does it continually operate above the temp of the water in the tub? If so how high? I can never seem to get a reply from any of the Arctic guys as to how the dead air space can actually contribute to the actual heating of the tub if the temp in the cabinet is below that of the water. The answer is it can't, it is actually costing more to heat the tub and the cabinet. But what do I know? I am new to this whole industry[/glow].
I never explained it because youve been unwilling to listen. Basically the waste heat off the pumps that HAVE to run to filter the water is utilitized to aid the heater in heating and keeping the water warm in the spa. The pumps, heaters, packs dont have to run any longer than any other brand of spa. Actually one could argue that the heater runs less which would save money on the bill. Its not the only way building, not even saying its the best. Its the way Arctic makes it and it works VERY WELL for me and all my customers.
I have asked the question 5 times and this is the first attempt at answering. Now your explanation of the pump aiding in the heating process is only affective if you are capturing enough heat to actually bring the cabinet temp above that of the actual temp of the water, other wise you are simply bleeding heat into the cabinet losing temp from the spa. If at any time you reach into the cabinet of the spa and feel the side of the shell and it is warmer than the temp of the inside of the cabinet then you are in fact losing heat from the vessel of water and paying not only to heat the water but also the dead air cavity. I would also add that when you operate the jets and add millions of bubbles to the jetting action these bubbles come from the cabinet and at first will seem warm, but what happens once the warm air is depleted from the cabinet and the heat from the pump is no longer able to keep up with the transfer of outside air into the cabinet , then into the vessel? You would be replacing that warm air taken from the cabinet with ambient outside air. The demand is too rapid for the heat from the pump to bring that replacement air to temps above the water in the vessel before that air is injected into the tub, especially in cold climates.
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p.s. calling people stupid isnt a great way to debate, but maybe thats just me. Also saying the temp in the cabinet is 250 degrees is saying that the water is boiling in the spa. [/quote]
So when I boil water on my stove the flame to get it there is only 250 degrees?
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p.s. calling people stupid isnt a great way to debate, but maybe thats just me. Also saying the temp in the cabinet is 250 degrees is saying that the water is boiling in the spa.
So when I boil water on my stove the flame to get it there is only 250 degrees?
I dont know why dont you try it out to see. Water boils at 212 not 250 btw.
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I have asked the question 5 times and this is the first attempt at answering. Now your explanation of the pump aiding in the heating process is only affective if you are capturing enough heat to actually bring the cabinet temp above that of the actual temp of the water, other wise you are simply bleeding heat into the cabinet losing temp from the spa. If at any time you reach into the cabinet of the spa and feel the side of the shell and it is warmer than the temp of the inside of the cabinet then you are in fact losing heat from the vessel of water and paying not only to heat the water but also the dead air cavity. I would also add that when you operate the jets and add millions of bubbles to the jetting action these bubbles come from the cabinet and at first will seem warm, but what happens once the warm air is depleted from the cabinet and the heat from the pump is no longer able to keep up with the transfer of outside air into the cabinet , then into the vessel? You would be replacing that warm air taken from the cabinet with ambient outside air. The demand is too rapid for the heat from the pump to bring that replacement air to temps above the water in the vessel before that air is injected into the tub, especially in cold climates.
Deam up what you want but the method works and works on a consistent basis. And again nobody here is claiming that the waste heat off the pumps does ALL the heating. It just simply aids. It gets cold and windy here to.
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Deam up what you want but the method works and works on a consistent basis. And again nobody here is claiming that the waste heat off the pumps does ALL the heating. It just simply aids. It gets cold and windy here to.
I am trying to see how a cabinet that is colder than the water itself can aid in heating?
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I am trying to see how a cabinet that is colder than the water itself can aid in heating?
I thought it was hotter? Like 250 degrees.
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I thought it was hotter? Like 250 degrees.
;D ;D ;D
Sawman, let it go already and go do something productive. Why dont you go feed Lakota??!!
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Anyone familiar with Godwins Law? Perhaps we need a new law concerning the word "stupid".
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;D ;D ;D
Sawman, let it go already and go do something productive. Why dont you go feed Lakota??!!
Now that you are painted in a corner. twisting two different seasons and conversations doesn't change that the insulation does not work when the cabinet temp is lower than that of the water.
Mr Bill, I think you have confused me with Stuart, tell Bobby to be more specific when you are getting information from him and tell him thanks for the notes on selling against Arctic. They make perfect sense and his name on the bottom is a real closer. Even from someone who has only been selling spas for 3 yrs they get the job done.
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Not confused at all. I just figured you should go feed Stuarts dog!
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Now that you are painted in a corner. twisting two different seasons and conversations doesn't change that the insulation does not work when the cabinet temp is lower than that of the water.
Mr Bill, I think you have confused me with Stuart, tell Bobby to be more specific when you are getting information from him and tell him thanks for the notes on selling against Arctic. They make perfect sense and his name on the bottom is a real closer. Even from someone who has only been selling spas for 3 yrs they get the job done.
You were the one that said the inside of the cabinet gets 250 degrees. No one else said that but you sawman.
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You were the one that said the inside of the cabinet gets 250 degrees. No one else said that but you sawman.
My point is it gets too hot in the summer and too cold in the winter.
Twist and squirm all you want, it does not change the subject at hand.
I don't think I would get too personal about Stuarts private life, you do not know him well enough. I would think when it came to personal attacks we could atleast keep private lives off of the forum.
Now would be a good time to have this thread locked or trashed.
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(http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b206/EastTexasSpa/ouch.gif)
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[glow]My point is it gets too hot in the summer and too cold in the winter. [/glow]
Twist and squirm all you want, it does not change the subject at hand.
I don't think I would get too personal about Stuarts private life, you do not know him well enough. I would think when it came to personal attacks we could atleast keep private lives off of the forum.
Now would be a good time to have this thread locked or trashed.
point is that it doesnt. You can sit here and go off about your alleged studies and analagies all you want, but I have hundreds of Arctic Spas in use that say YOUR WRONG
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SO the vented panels are just for looks? ;
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SO the vented panels are just for looks? ;
The louvered doors are available for the Arctic Spa for extreme conditions. Usually the normal trick of a tennis ball under the cover will take care of any excessive heat. I guess since Arctic is the only manufacturer that offers the louvered door it makes it a bad thing. Must mean that the Forever Floor is a bad thing too since they are one of the only ones who offer it.
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ps, still only registering 102 degrees inside the cabinet. No 250 degrees yet.
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[glow]My point is it gets too hot in the summer and too cold in the winter. [/glow]
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Dangit, I was hoping I could use my Arctic Spa tonite but since its supposed to be cold I better hold off. :'( :'( :'(
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;D ;D ;D
Sawman, let it go already and go do something productive. Why don’t you go feed Lakota??!!
I've really been trying to stay on point and talk logical however it kinda ticks me off that your obviously talking to my son-in-law who competes against me down the street and trying to get info on us.
The part that ticks me off is that while he's feeding you info to throw jabs I'm not here to answer because I'm to busy trying to help him and my daughter get into their first house. Doesn't it seem ironic that he would even dare to feed you info about me while I've never stopped trying to be a help in his personal life?
This is just one more negative thing in a long line of aggressive, abusive and nasty emails, calls, lies and other deceptions I've dealt with over the years from people selling this specific brand of spas.
Do me a favor, talk about your product and leave my personal life out of your posts....It doesn't make you look any better than the Arctic salesmen that sent me emails or pm calling me names or calling me "gay". Or the salesman that was on this board making derogatory comments about women.
Stick with the facts, Spaman should do the same...Leave me, my dog and my family out of it.
Every time I deal with Tom I think that the brand is turning the corner and getting away from the classless aggressiveness of the past that they were known for then some sales guy gets on, acts childish and ruins that thought.
BTW, I have another dog named “Clover”, a cat and a fish if your interested in talking about them on the forum.
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I've really been trying to stay on point and talk logical however it kinda ticks me off that your obviously talking to my son-in-law who competes against me down the street and trying to get info on us.
The part that ticks me off is that while he's feeding you info to throw jabs I'm not here to answer because I'm to busy trying to help him and my daughter get into their first house. Doesn't it seem ironic that he would even dare to feed you info about me while I've never stopped trying to be a help in his personal life?
This is just one more negative thing in a long line of aggressive, abusive and nasty emails, calls, lies and other deceptions I've dealt with over the years from people selling this specific brand of spas.
Do me a favor, talk about your product and leave my personal life out of your posts....It doesn't make you look any better than the Arctic salesmen that sent me emails or pm calling me names or calling me "gay". Or the salesman that was on this board making derogatory comments about women.
Stick with the facts, Spaman should do the same...Leave me, my dog and my family out of it.
Every time I deal with Tom I think that the brand is turning the corner and getting away from the classless aggressiveness of the past that they were known for then some sales guy gets on, acts childish and ruins that thought.
BTW, I have another dog named “Clover”, a cat and a fish if your interested in talking about them on the forum.
Sorry Robert, didn’t mean to strike a nerve, just having fun with sawman, that’s all.
For the record though, I don’t know your son in law, or anyone in your area for that matter. I have not called or talked to anyone in your area.
I just read the latest article today that you wrote for Spa Retailer mag, and in the article it says you own the biz with your wife and your dog. That’s I how I came across that, and since that was in a public mag, I figured that was public knowledge. I am sorry though for bringing up your dog, I shouldn’t have done that.
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I think we need to realize who is doing all the prodding here, we are just here defending the product. Not taking jabs at other products or anything. Just trying to keep people from getting the impression that Arctic produces a spa that is neither boiling hot or ice cube cold.
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I call it probing. ;D ;D ;D
(http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b51/cristcabin/thermometer.jpg)
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Sorry Robert, didn’t mean to strike a nerve, just having fun with sawman, that’s all.
For the record though, I don’t know your son in law, or anyone in your area for that matter. I have not called or talked to anyone in your area.
I just read the latest article today that you wrote for Spa Retailer mag, and in the article it says you own the biz with your wife and your dog. That’s I how I came across that, and since that was in a public mag, I figured that was public knowledge. I am sorry though for bringing up your dog, I shouldn’t have done that.
You were obviously looking for info on my company to use against me in this discussion...That is getting personal. Again, regardless of whether it's "public knowledge" or not, stick with your product and leave my personal life out of it.
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You were obviously looking for info on my company to use against me in this discussion...That is getting personal. Again, regardless of whether it's "public knowledge" or not, stick with your product and leave my personal life out of it.
I am sorry that I brought that up. I wasn’t looking for any info though. Read that in the article that you wrote, and I was having fun with sawman, that’s all. Didn’t mean to strike a nerve. Please accept my apologies.
For the record though, you and sawman are no little angels or saints on this forum. This was all started when sawman started taking jabs at the product that I represent, and I won't stand for that either.
I will gladly "stick to the product" that I sell when you and sawman do the same.
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I call it probing. ;D ;D ;D
(http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b51/cristcabin/thermometer.jpg)
ok???
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I am sorry that I brought that up. I wasn’t looking for any info though. Read that in the article that you wrote, and I was having fun with sawman, that’s all. Didn’t mean to strike a nerve. Pleas except my apologies
For the record though, you and sawman are no little angels or saints on this forum. This was all started when sawman started taking jabs at the product that I represent, and I won't stand for that either.
I will gladly "stick to the product" that I sell when you and sawman do the same.
We can move this part of the discussion to PM if you would like but for the record, I've not "attacked" anyone or anyone’s product. I've played devils advocate on what I think are the "cons" of the product because so often I read or hear views that make is sound like the rest of the industry is wrong and Arctic is that only company with a clue.
Tell me where I've been off base with any of my points or thoughts on this and I will change it.
You threw jabs at me bringing Cal on instead of acknowledging the fact that after almost 20 years of battling a manufacture I found merit in what they were doing to the point that I was giving them a shot on my floor. I never preached anything about them nor did I make claims or elicit anyone to buy or sell the product. I simply shared my thoughts as to why I brought it on...
Try to be a bit more analytical and less emotional about your product and you could gain a lot more ground with someone that thinks logical like me. Tom has done a great job at this with a lot of people including myself.
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We can move this part of the discussion to PM if you would like but for the record, I've not "attacked" anyone or anyone’s product. I've played devils advocate on what I think are the "cons" of the product because so often I read or hear views that make is sound like the rest of the industry is wrong and Arctic is that only company with a clue.
Tell me where I've been off base with any of my points or thoughts on this and I will change it.
You threw jabs at me bringing Cal on instead of acknowledging the fact that after almost 20 years of battling a manufacture I found merit in what they were doing to the point that I was giving them a shot on my floor. I never preached anything about them nor did I make claims or elicit anyone to buy or sell the product. I simply shared my thoughts as to why I brought it on...
Try to be a bit more analytical and less emotional about your product and you could gain a lot more ground with someone that thinks logical like me. Tom has done a great job at this with a lot of people including myself.
Feel free to pm me if you would like. There have been lots of lies put on here about Arctic that even you know aren't true Robert. I am emotional about the product that I sell, and if someone is on here putting lies, I will tell the truth, as I do know the truth since I sell the product.
If you look back at all of my posts, you will see that I don’t talk bad about other spas. I don’t on my sales floor and I don’t on here. I may have told a story about a box store nightmare, but that is all. I don’t drop names, and claim to know it all about all spas because I don’t. As I have said before, I joined here to help customers with Arctic Spas, not to pick fights with other dealers.
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I've really been trying to stay on point and talk logical however it kinda ticks me off that your obviously talking to my son-in-law who competes against me down the street and trying to get info on us.
The part that ticks me off is that while he's feeding you info to throw jabs I'm not here to answer because I'm to busy trying to help him and my daughter get into their first house. Doesn't it seem ironic that he would even dare to feed you info about me while I've never stopped trying to be a help in his personal life?
This is just one more negative thing in a long line of aggressive, abusive and nasty emails, calls, lies and other deceptions I've dealt with over the years from people selling this specific brand of spas.
Do me a favor, talk about your product and leave my personal life out of your posts....It doesn't make you look any better than the Arctic salesmen that sent me emails or pm calling me names or calling me "gay". Or the salesman that was on this board making derogatory comments about women.
Stick with the facts, Spaman should do the same...Leave me, my dog and my family out of it.
[glow]Every time I deal with Tom I think that the brand is turning the corner and getting away from the classless aggressiveness of the past that they were known for then some sales guy gets on, acts childish and ruins that thought[/glow].
BTW, I have another dog named “Clover”, a cat and a fish if your interested in talking about them on the forum.
Point taken on that, although I will say that senseless and needless questioning of the quality of Arctic Spas EVERY time the name is brought up causes lots of this. I believe that their are lots of great brands that all have excellent features. I believe that Arctic is right in the mix, but people implying that our cabinets generate 250 degrees really gets under my skin. We as arctic dealers hear this type of crap everyday from competing dealers and quite frankly its a bit comical, cause if its true no way Arctic has as good of an image it does and I would have customers in my store all day long demanding money back.
Its pretty bad when I have to keep a digital thermometer on my running showroom spa that displays the temp inside the cabinet. Although it kind of helps me out when I think about it cause it turns other salesman into liars!
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I also think it is comical that you keep a thermometer in the cabinet in your showroom as that is not the environment in which these tubs are typically used and does not depict the actual temp of which will be the norm.. Further more if I disconnect the heater in the Cal Spa on my floor it will also hold the temp.
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I also think it is comical that you keep a thermometer in the cabinet in your showroom as that is not the environment in which these tubs are typically used and does not depict the actual temp of which will be the norm.. Further more if I disconnect the heater in the Cal Spa on my floor it will also hold the temp.
Im glad I can make you laugh. But Ive put that theory to test on my own Arctic spa, and it holds no bearing. The outside temp or conditions dont effect the temp of the inside cabinet. That outside insulation works both ways.
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Im glad I can make you laugh. But Ive put that theory to test on my own Arctic spa, and it holds no bearing. The outside temp or conditions dont effect the temp of the inside cabinet. That outside insulation works both ways.
so the temp of the air in the cabinet is constantly hotter than the temp of the water in the spa?
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Im glad I can make you laugh. But Ive put that theory to test on my own Arctic spa, and it holds no bearing. The outside temp or conditions dont effect the temp of the inside cabinet. That outside insulation works both ways. [/quot
so the temp of the air in the cabinet is constantly hotter than the temp of the water in the spa?
If the cover is on I have found it is the same temp or a tad higher in the cabinet. If you take the cover off you obviously lose heat.
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Not in the cabinet it is not.
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Not in the cabinet it is not.
well my thermometer must be whack
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The max operating temp inside the cabinet is to be 120F. You are trying to tell the entire board that this cabinet maintains temps between 102f and 120f?
Why do you suppose they changed to the expensive Italian pump?
I will answer it for you, in a quote from an Arctic engineer:
"The pumps in our spas are also in a very hot environment.... EMG has designed their motors to [use] forced air cooling. They use air flow over the aluminium finned housing to cool the motor. The use of aluminium and the large surface area of the outside of the motor make this design an improvement over [motors from our previous supplier, which] restrict the amount of air flow by running the air through the centre of the motor and use a steel housing which does not conduct the heat as well."
Switching the pump was a good move, but this does not protect the electronics.
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The max operating temp inside the cabinet is to be 120F. You are trying to tell the entire board that this cabinet maintains temps between 102f and 120f?
Why do you suppose they changed to the expensive Italian pump?
I will answer it for you, in a quote from an Arctic engineer:
"The pumps in our spas are also in a very hot environment.... EMG has designed their motors to [use] forced air cooling. They use air flow over the aluminium finned housing to cool the motor. The use of aluminium and the large surface area of the outside of the motor make this design an improvement over [motors from our previous supplier, which] restrict the amount of air flow by running the air through the centre of the motor and use a steel housing which does not conduct the heat as well."
Switching the pump was a good move, but this does not protect the electronics.
I have yet to test a temp in the cabinet above 120 degrees. You are correct though that the EMG is an excellent pump. Question for you though, lets say that you assumptions are correct, which they arent. Why would the manufacturer who makes the electronics warranty the products the Arctic puts in the cabinet, let alone sell to Arctic? You know it all maybe you can answer this.
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Because they would have to prove on each board that this was the cause and I am not saying that the failure will even come within the warranty, This is why Gecko replaced 1000's of boards for L.A Spas after they swithced to their new filter.
So the heat from the cabinet is building up under your cover?
The engineer that said "our pumps operate in very high temps" he meant 119F?
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Because they would have to prove on each board that this was the cause and I am not saying that the failure will even come within the warranty, This is why Gecko replaced 1000's of boards for L.A Spas after they swithced to their new filter.
So the heat from the cabinet is building up under your cover?
The engineer that said "our pumps operate in very high temps" he meant 119F?
Just an FYI if the temp reaches 117 in the cabinet the HL pops up on the display board that NEVER happens on my spa at home or in the showroom. So yes he must have been talking about heat less than 117 degrees. I would think 5-10 years would be enough time for serious damage from constant 250 degree heat. Im pretty sure that the plastics would be warping or possibly beginning to take different shapes. But what do I know I just buy and sell and sit em every night!
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Just an FYI if the temp reaches 117 in the cabinet the HL pops up on the display board that NEVER happens on my spa at home or in the showroom. So yes he must have been talking about heat less than 117 degrees. I would think 5-10 years would be enough time for serious damage from constant 250 degree heat. Im pretty sure that the plastics would be warping or possibly beginning to take different shapes. But what do I know I just buy and sell and sit em every night!
O.K I was misspoken when I said 250f it was a figure as if I were saying it was "hotter than hell outside" I suppose you would expect to look out and see J.A running through hot lava in a speedo. MY BAD!
I have read the average operating temps n the cabinets are between 140f and 150F. This arguemnet has been waged and there atleast 5 customers who came out complaining about hose failures, heat issues, light lens failure issues, even fires (which I do not believe). I would suggest you do a pole as to how many customers have HL popping up and you will be surprised what you find, we had a barrage of calls last summer and we are not even the dealer.
I guess I am upset that the dealers isn't throwing in tennis balls as a closer.
"tell ya what, buy today and ya get a hole punch for your cover and a set of Louvered cabinets for looks"
customer: "throw in a gallon of that there stain and ya got yourself a deal"
the salesman is happy he didn't have to throw in extra hoses. and thank God the whole light lense and biguanide fiasco is over.
I give up! You win!
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O.K I was misspoken when I said 250f it was a figure as if I were saying it was "hotter than hell outside" I suppose you would expect to look out and see J.A running through hot lava in a speedo. MY BAD!
I have read the average operating temps n the cabinets are between 140f and 150F. This arguemnet has been waged and there atleast 5 customers who came out complaining about hose failures, heat issues, light lens failure issues, even fires (which I do not believe). I would suggest you do a pole as to how many customers have HL popping up and you will be surprised what you find, we had a barrage of calls last summer and we are not even the dealer.
I guess I am upset that the dealers isn't throwing in tennis balls as a closer.
"tell ya what, buy today and ya get a hole punch for your cover and a set of Louvered cabinets for looks"
customer: "throw in a gallon of that there stain and ya got yourself a deal"
the salesman is happy he didn't have to throw in extra hoses. and thank God the whole light lense and biguanide fiasco is over.
I give up! You win!
Customers call their dealers when a error code pops up, Im sure they call you when or if something pops up on the brand you sell. Quite frankly we dont get called anymore about HL than any other error code that could pop up. And to be honest we get asked about the overheating and tennis ball trick by other brands just as much as Arctics. I dont care what brand you sell their will always be issues pop up, but like Tom stated previously Arctics warranty percentage speaks for itself. Its no more than any other manufacturer.
I have been running the demo spa on high speed all morning WITH the cover on and have reached a whopping 110 degrees in the cabinet.
I dont throw in a half gallon of stain, we personally come out at the request of the customer once a year and apply a coat of stain and seal free of charge.
Thanks for conceding!
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Hillbilly,
Good questions however I have to question how much service background you've actually had....
In 20 years I've never seen more bees and bugs in a fully foamed tub! How could that be? They take the least path of resistance and the open chamber is much more welcoming than a closed one.
We have an issue here with spiders in TP cabinets...They love the dark open space for webs. Sure I've also see them in equipment compartments on full foam tubs but not nearly to the degree that I've seen them on TP.
As far as the plumbing getting "dried out" from the curing of the foam...I'm not sure what you’re talking about here but the plumbing doesn't "Dry out" in any "curing”. Our enemy is air when it comes to plumbing, air and possibly chemicals. Open any older HS spa (I use them as an example because they have a lot of ff spa out that are older) and look at the small tubing in the equipment compartment then look at some of the small tubing locked in the foam. Both can be a bit brittle however the tubing by the motors is very stiff and fragile and cannot be manipulated.
When you talk about "wrapping" a foam cup...What are you talking about? I can't remember anyone putting a sleeve over the heavy white foam cups that have been around forever to keep them from getting to warm but see them do that on the paper or thin foam used by some of the big companies. [glow]Just for logic sake why don't you contact an insulation company and see what they think of some of this?[/glow]
Now to readdress the operating temp of the components... The bottom line is this; your thinking in the terms of water damage not wear....any component that can create heat will survive better in cooler conditions than hotter, that's just common sense. Heat breaks down plastics and metals much faster than cold does. If you don’t believe this than again, shut the fan off in your computer for awhile or better yet let it run in a cold environment like your garage and see if it shuts down then set it in the sun in front of your window while it operates and see if it has any problems. More than likely it will crash if it sets in the sunlight while operating very long.
As far as whether your product lasts or holds up against any other product, I would have to say that it does fine but as far as whether it makes more sense and is better than other products...that's where the battle begins. [glow]The key tricky phrase here is "Does it make sense" vs. "Does it make more sense". [/glow]
Then to Steve's comment...I agree that often everyone thinks they know more about the competitors product than their own in these debates but also believe it is vital to know and understand not only your product but to become extremely knowledgeable in your competition. In this case we should probably take out the name brand and compare a style or philosophy of manufacturing a product. That's just kinda hard when so many think their brand is so different or so much better than everyone else.
The frustrating part for me is how many people comment with partial knowledge of what they are talking about and forgo common sense to support a myopic view of their revenue producing stream.
We did contact an insulating company, a local one not the one that supplies the foam to Clearwater. The boards they use have an R54 value, I am not saying the tub is R54, but thats what that foam has. They also have borates in the foam that will kill any bug or rodent that tries to live in them and thay are water resistant, it is the same foam used for floating gulf coares and in freeway supports.
If it insulates just as well, what is the advantage to full foam to dead air if they insulate the same?
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If it insulates just as well, what is the advantage to full foam to dead air if they insulate the same?
IMO the key word in that sentence is IF and I don't think they do at all so the advantage fro full foams is in the energy efficiency. Thermal panes do have an advantage in ease of repair but I'd rather save monthly monthly on my electrical bill (big $$ in many cases). Yes, that is just my opinion but what the heck, we're already in the dead horse section and the point was already brought up!
If thermpanes insulated as well as a full foam you'd see full foam manufacturers cutting costs tomorrow to go that route. I would never own a themopane because I don't think any of them come close to insulating as well as a full foam spa but again, that's just my opinion.
I don't see Arctic as a tradtional thermopane; they at least saw that the thermopanes just don't cut it and tried a different approach to try to eliminate the air transfer between the outside air and the cabinet that dooms the thermopanes energy efficiency.
Is Arctic as good at insulating as a full foam? I'm not so sure they are (I don't fully buy into their study) but they should do pretty well and certainly should do better than thermopanes.
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I've resisted saying more here but I have to clarify something...If your foam has borates in it I suspect it's only enough for marketing or to prevent bugs and rodents from actually living in the foam. They have to ingest it to for it to harm them and there has to be a strong enough dose to kill them. It you have that much boron in the foam it would have a warning label.
Bug and rodents can still live in the cabinet and probably do...Cedar also has been attemted as a bug repelent for years however not very effectively.... If you full foamed the spa with a boron impregnated product you might stand a better chance of keeping critters out.
As far as the pros and cons of both types of foam...that's what this is all about and it's an argument that never seems to get resolved.
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They kind of have to chew it up and ingest it to get into the cabinet.
Your right, its an ongoing saga, but there is so many jabs at these tubs not insulating as well as the full foam. WE HAVE HAD BOTH. My Full foam tub costs me more to run than my Clearwater. My customers that have switched from Hot Springs to Clearwater said the Clearwater has been less or the same as their Hot Springs.
So these comments that the ease of servicabilty is out weighed by the cost to operate are crazy. The cost to operate is the at least the same if not better is some cases PLUS you have the ease of repairs.
I also don't like the attitude that we don't know anything"question how long we have been in the field" We have been in this field just shy of 9 years. Not as long as some of you I know, but some of you fall under "You can't teach an old dog new tricks" We also worked for a manufacturer for 5 years. That teaches you totally differnet things.
I don't knock on the high quality full foam tubs either, but we have learned this from these also, working for the manufacturer when they went to foaming there tubs, such as the excessive amount of heat created as the foam cures which will degrade the plastics, cause future glue failures(huh, have we not seen this)
Why such a war if both "styles" of tubs are lasting and energy effcient. Do you all really knock on your compitition when selling a tub? its crazy, and customers do not like you knocking down your compitition.
Maybe why I am still here and my Sundance, Artisien and Hydropool compition is gone an the Jacuzzi dealer is holding on for dear life.
I know you sell a lot of spas, you have a quality product, but this "tude" would push most people away in our area at least.
Sad that some of us can say there are several quality spas out there, each with differnt things, but some think there is only 1 quality spa...whatever they are selling.
I love showing customers threads like this, it seals my sale everytime.
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I knew they couldn't let it rest. ;D
This subject has been dropped for a week now and you can see the rash that it has eaten in Hillbilly's side to hold his tongue. Funny as the local Arctic guys here don't enjoy the same success. ;)
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I knew they couldn't let it rest. ;D
This subject has been dropped for a week now and you can see the rash that it has eaten in Hillbilly's side to hold his tongue. [glow]Funny as the local Arctic guys here don't enjoy the same success[/glow]. ;)
In your opinion, also no need to take a jab at Arctic as Hillbilly Hot Tub doesnt sell Arctics or have any affiliation with them. But keep taking them, Ill be here to let the facts speak for themselves.
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Exactly, before buying or calling seats "pizza lounges" you should take "spamans" advice and give it a try. Im sure spaman hasnt.
Yea! sit in the Klondiker main lounge and let me know how well you stay down in the seat. Hold on to your hat because the only thing that will be touching the tub is your head on the head rest, the rest of your body floating at the surface of the water and your knees freezing because they were out of the water. You be the judge, this was just my experience. ;)
My Klondiker main lounge is perfect for me. No problems at all and no floating. What you talkin bout, Willis?
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I purchased an Artic Klondiker at the end of winter and highly recommend it. The long lounger is my favorite seat and the comments about floating just don't apply to my experience. And l also have had zero issues with water on the corners of the cover, or with my spa over heating. I love the spa and love the type of insulation that Artic uses. Find a tub that suits your needs and by all means consider an Artic!