Hot Tub Forum
Original => Hot Tub Forum => Topic started by: cchaynes on July 22, 2019, 02:55:36 pm
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The local area is Philadelphia but will buy out of state, likely DE or NJ.
So far the quote on the Vanguard is higher by a couple of thousand dollars.
I like the Hot Spring but have read some pretty unflattering reviews of them having a lot of part failures. One pro to the HS is the salt system.
Any thoughts would be appreciated.
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Really curious what the product failures are. As a Hot Spring/Caldera/Marquis dealer I may be biased, but I have few failures on Highlife Hot Spring. General statement here, both are quality brands. I don't know Bullfrog pricing, but unless someone in the know can comment, I wouldn't expect there to be a couple thousand dollar difference. If these are the same dealer, it sounds like they are trying to emphasize Hot Spring as a more premium product and if different dealers, maybe one is giving you their bottom price up front and the other has left room for negotiation. Either way, the price difference in my opinion is irrelevant unless the Bullfrog is the better hot tub for you.
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what prices are you being quoted and what is included in the price. Extras and add-ons can affect the price by thousands of dollars.
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Really curious what the product failures are. As a Hot Spring/Caldera/Marquis dealer I may be biased, but I have few failures on Highlife Hot Spring. General statement here, both are quality brands. I don't know Bullfrog pricing, but unless someone in the know can comment, I wouldn't expect there to be a couple thousand dollar difference. If these are the same dealer, it sounds like they are trying to emphasize Hot Spring as a more premium product and if different dealers, maybe one is giving you their bottom price up front and the other has left room for negotiation. Either way, the price difference in my opinion is irrelevant unless the Bullfrog is the better hot tub for you.
Thanks
Different dealers, but i think thew dealer for HS is on the high side?
Total price delivered is 13,799
The price on all will include cover, cover lifter, matching upgraded stairs, electric subpanel, chemicals and delivery. Salt water is usually $349 for the start up that lasts 4 months and I will include the salt water for free!! I can do that with any deal.
Not sure what the sub-panel saves me?
The BF dealer is quoting a price of 11,300 (need to verify delivery but that is with wellness pump and ozone (which i like less than salt)
Over 2k delta seems high, what is a fair price on this vanguard?
BTW, it as from a consumer reports style site, lots of failed heater and pumps and other gripes. That said, people eon here seem very happy with HS quality
Thanks
Craig
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That price is pretty fair on the Vanguard with Salt. The Bullfrog price seems low but I could be wrong. When considering the price, keep in mind the options can swing the price a lot. With Hot Spring, Freshwater Salt is $399, the GFCI sub-panel is $399 and depending on which lift and steps, that could be another $500-$800. Same can be said with Bullfrog (which lift and step)?
Again, I will not tell you what to do. I would wet test and see which you like better. The $2500 is irrelevant unless the hot tub works for you. Also research each dealer as they are the ones supporting you after the sale.
While I haven't been on Consumer Reports, that statement is surprising to me. In my area there has been Hot Spring representation for 35+ years. The company I work for has been with Hot Spring for the last 2.5 years and Caldera 5 years. I order all parts and process all warranty claims. The amount of jet pumps I have ordered is in the single digits and heaters are similar. These numbers are for what we have sold and all other operational Hot Springs in our territory.
I think anyone in this industry would agree that all hot tubs will break if you own it long enough and that no company makes an indestructible product. That being said, I'll take my chances with Hot Spring/Caldera any day because I know the manufacturer is going to support me as a dealer and that means my customer will be taken care of. Having been in the industry 18+ years and having dealt with many manufacturers, I have never had this amount of confidence from anyone else. There are a few Bullfrog guys here that can speak about them as a company so I won't because I have no direct experience.
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That price is pretty fair on the Vanguard with Salt. The Bullfrog price seems low but I could be wrong. When considering the price, keep in mind the options can swing the price a lot. With Hot Spring, Freshwater Salt is $399, the GFCI sub-panel is $399 and depending on which lift and steps, that could be another $500-$800. Same can be said with Bullfrog (which lift and step)?
Again, I will not tell you what to do. I would wet test and see which you like better. The $2500 is irrelevant unless the hot tub works for you. Also research each dealer as they are the ones supporting you after the sale.
While I haven't been on Consumer Reports, that statement is surprising to me. In my area there has been Hot Spring representation for 35+ years. The company I work for has been with Hot Spring for the last 2.5 years and Caldera 5 years. I order all parts and process all warranty claims. The amount of jet pumps I have ordered is in the single digits and heaters are similar. These numbers are for what we have sold and all other operational Hot Springs in our territory.
I think anyone in this industry would agree that all hot tubs will break if you own it long enough and that no company makes an indestructible product. That being said, I'll take my chances with Hot Spring/Caldera any day because I know the manufacturer is going to support me as a dealer and that means my customer will be taken care of. Having been in the industry 18+ years and having dealt with many manufacturers, I have never had this amount of confidence from anyone else. There are a few Bullfrog guys here that can speak about them as a company so I won't because I have no direct experience.
Thanks
Does the lineup even have an MSRP? I don't like how murky the pricing is in the industry.
here is a link to the reviews I mentioned. In fairness its like mostly pissed off people but lots of early breakdowns referenced.
https://www.consumeraffairs.com/homeowners/hot-spring-spas.html
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That price is pretty fair on the Vanguard with Salt. The Bullfrog price seems low but I could be wrong. When considering the price, keep in mind the options can swing the price a lot. With Hot Spring, Freshwater Salt is $399, the GFCI sub-panel is $399 and depending on which lift and steps, that could be another $500-$800. Same can be said with Bullfrog (which lift and step)?
Again, I will not tell you what to do. I would wet test and see which you like better. The $2500 is irrelevant unless the hot tub works for you. Also research each dealer as they are the ones supporting you after the sale.
While I haven't been on Consumer Reports, that statement is surprising to me. In my area there has been Hot Spring representation for 35+ years. The company I work for has been with Hot Spring for the last 2.5 years and Caldera 5 years. I order all parts and process all warranty claims. The amount of jet pumps I have ordered is in the single digits and heaters are similar. These numbers are for what we have sold and all other operational Hot Springs in our territory.
I think anyone in this industry would agree that all hot tubs will break if you own it long enough and that no company makes an indestructible product. That being said, I'll take my chances with Hot Spring/Caldera any day because I know the manufacturer is going to support me as a dealer and that means my customer will be taken care of. Having been in the industry 18+ years and having dealt with many manufacturers, I have never had this amount of confidence from anyone else. There are a few Bullfrog guys here that can speak about them as a company so I won't because I have no direct experience.
Thanks
Does the lineup even have an MSRP? I don't like how murky the pricing is in the industry.
here is a link to the reviews I mentioned. In fairness its like mostly pissed off people but lots of early breakdowns referenced.
https://www.consumeraffairs.com/homeowners/hot-spring-spas.html
Couple points here. Consumer affairs is a pay to play review site. You will notice a few brands with hundreds of reviews and the rest have under a 100. I just looked and think I saw 67 reviews. I didn’t read them but I’m guessing they aren’t all bad. Even if they are Hot Springs makes like 20,000 or so Tubs a year. In my mind that’s a pretty good ratio of complaints to number of tubs sold
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Both are nice, so you can't go wrong. Have you wet tested yet? If not, it could make a difference in your decision. The price on the Bullfrog is low, were at 13,500 with the options quoted. Don't buy into the salt vs ozone crap. Ozone has been around a really long time. And when used right with a mineral cartridge and a product like replenish, it's hard to beat. I honestly thing there are more cons then pro's to salt systems, but it's you money and pcs of mind.
Wet test and then decide, comfort is key, the rest is politics..
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I have had my Aria for almost a month now. The Aria is the same size as the Vanguard. In my opinion it is a step above the Bullfrog. The quality of the tub is outstanding. I’ve had ozone and now have salt. I would never go back. The salt is amazing. If you don’t have sensitive skin it might not be an issue but I do and I can’t speak highly enough about it.
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Thanks everyone!
We have also received a better quote on the Vanguard of 12,400 all in.
One quick question, is the sub-panel for the hotspring proprietary? Is that why they include it?
Cheers
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Thanks everyone!
We have also received a better quote on the Vanguard of 12,400 all in.
One quick question, is the sub-panel for the hotspring proprietary? Is that why they include it?
Cheers
I'm not sure I'd call it proprietary as much as it is "different" and not at Home Depot. That's why its included so the electrician or do-it-yourselfer won't scratch their heads figuring out what is needed.
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:)Thanks!
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Thanks everyone!
We have also received a better quote on the Vanguard of 12,400 all in.
One quick question, is the sub-panel for the hotspring proprietary? Is that why they include it?
Cheers
Thats a good for you price on the Vanguard.
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It's never really "included" You are paying for it somewhere. That said, glad the came down. It's a good price.
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We are definitely leaning that way. We like the look of it better and want the salt.
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Wet-test both and make sure to focus on things you'll be living with for years: seat comfort/angles, jets, adjustable valves, buttons/controls, and noise level.
Ozone by itself is not a primary sanitizer, but more of a secondary oxidizer. On a frequently used tub, an effective ozone generator can help oxidize bather waste (sweat, etc) reducing your chlorine consumption by perhaps 50%. One an infrequently used tub, ozone will break chlorine down causing an overall increase in chlorine consumption. Keep in mind chlorine is a perfectly fine oxidizer and residual sanitizer all in one, so ozone is of debatable utility.
Ozone can also work well in conjunction with a bromine-sanitized tub by reactivating the spent bromine, but usually there isn't enough control of when the ozone generator comes online to really dial that in well.
Salt-water systems (SWG) are still chlorine based, just that they continuously convert salt (sodium chloride) into free chlorine. Most of these systems are far from automatic or hands-free. You must adjust the run time (duty cycle) to more-or-less match your tub size and bather load. Most of these systems offer a "boost" function to use after soaking to help oxidize bather waste. In my experience, boost mode works for light loads, like two people who shower before soaking. It is no match for a sudden heavy load like a bunch of kids. One time a slug crawled into my tub and crashed the chlorine level. The salt-water cell wasn't able to overpower it and the water went bad while I was away. You can manually also add chlorine after soaking and just use the salt water generator as a constant background level, which is handy when the tub isn't used for a week or so. It also helps to have some stabilizer (aka CYA) in the tub, so I would manually dose with dichlor for the first week before adding salt and switching on the SWG.
Like a number of brands, Bullfrog now ships standard with the Frog @ease SmartChlor system. This also maintains a low-level of chlorine, plus silver ions. Similar to a salt water system, you need to dial-in the output to match your tub size and average bather load. I have found it less fiddly than the SWG, though. That convenience comes at a cost,... about $360/year in cartridges.
If you don't mind testing and dosing your water every day or so, it's hard to beat the low cost and sparkling pure results dichlor-then-bleach method of water care. Look it up. Just beware that most shops would rather sell you high priced bottles of chemicals and will thus have lots of nonsense reasons why you shouldn't believe "things you read on the internet." For my previous tub with SWG, I used ordinary pickling salt (no additives), much to my pool store's horror that really wanted to sell me expensive bags of certified pool salt.
All that said, I've now owned both Bullfrog and Hot Springs tubs. Both are very nice.
My old HS Jetsetter basically rotted away due to the wood base and frame and attracted a family of rodents, but it did take 15 years of rainy Pacific Northwest weather. Over its lifetime, the Hot Spring tub went through two heaters, one jet pump rebuild, a moto-massage unit, spinner jet, pillow, and various repairs to the cabinet as time took its toll. I was its second owner, so who knows what water balance abuse it went through before. I did all the work on it myself and sourced parts from Back Yard Plus.
My new Bullfrog A5L is a huge step up, but I would expect Hot Springs to have improved as well. I like that the Bullfrog has a heavy duty plastic base and frame, and the parts are less expensive and more commonly available. The swappable Jet Packs are pretty neat and do greatly reduce plumbing complexity and therefor potential leak points. My delivery tech has seen them all, currently owned a Hot Springs, but said his next tub with be a Bullfrog, just based on the plumbing alone. Take that for whatever it's worth. Never had a plumbing leak on my Hot Springs.
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The local area is Philadelphia but will buy out of state, likely DE or NJ.
So far the quote on the Vanguard is higher by a couple of thousand dollars.
I like the Hot Spring but have read some pretty unflattering reviews of them having a lot of part failures. One pro to the HS is the salt system.
Any thoughts would be appreciated.
Good luck with this choice, I don't think you could make a bad one. All hot tubs are going to have malfunctions over a number of years, These are two good brands. I've only seen the Bullfrog on a sales floor, they weren't around the last time I bought. The only trouble with the Vanguard, may have been corrected since I was last in one. I disliked the hot water where the heater puts water in the tub was right were I put my foot to get in an out of the tub.
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the discrepancy in price is because the A7 is being sold at least $1,000 under fair market value (which of course is good for you assuming you go that route)...both great manufacturers, having soaked in both models I can say in my opinion the Bullfrog will have much better/variety of jetting options, but both are built well and well insulated....wet test both and do your research on the dealer to come up with which model works best for you...good luck!